[Rid]

There's still balancing to be done, and I believe that means a nerf to prot dps to be honest, they've made it clear that although prot dps is intended to be higer than before it should still be lower than fury or arms. However, I'm still thinking of levelling as prot too.

[Tonypablos]

Because nerfing prot because of it dps really fixes our Fury/Arms tree right?

Yeah, that sounds like a Blizzard thought. ...slightly still bitter.

[Kazeyonoma]

yeh, the 15% penalty is a bit too much. I don't mind the idea of making us have to fix our hit a bit because lets face it, it makes sense, we'll probably miss more often swinging 2 big 2handers because it just is harder to control, but 15% is a bit much, 10% would be better, but 5% would be optimal I think, it'd be a big enough difference that min/maxers will strive to make up that 5%, but not at the expense of STR/Crit

[Rid]

The answer to that all comes down to where do they want to balance warriors dps against other classes, they said that they don't want to balance it before level 80, the next question is at what gear level. Do they want classes to be balanced at end game or at beginning heroics/naxx level or somewhere in between?

[Kazeyonoma]

part of the problem with "balancing us at end game" is that if we aren't established as good dps early on, we face repeating the early vanilla wow fury warrior and tbc arms warrior mentality where guilds already have their raid setups and they think to themselves, when I ran that 5 man a few months ago, that TG warrior was terrible, why would I bring him now?

[Tonypablos]

The biggest problem as i told Kaze about, is the fact that the talent, TG, in essence, is pretty much borked. The more you put Hit as your important stat to attempt to lower your miss chance with BT/WW and other yellow attacks (Keep in mind here, this will include HS as well even if you put it in your rotation or not so seriously, this is a painful shot to us), you are lowering the damage of the main attacks of your class.

As I showed with the testings and I didn't change any gear here, stacking a bunch of hit to start lowering TG's miss rate is actually worse DPS than just leaving it at a 8-9% + precision and stacking Str/Ap/Crit.

In essence, the nerf in which they gave us FURTHER lowers one's dps due to the mechanics of which they are trying to push on us, and in itself, is detriment to the idea in which they want it to be a DPS upgrade.

However, unfortunately, it seems that this is the only thing left for us right now. With three more weeks left, apparently, to the beta testing, and with the fury suggestions on the beta tree found here: WotLK Beta (US-English) Forums -> Warrior Discussion , we can see that Titan's Grip is done. They do not want the feedback and the numbers they have don't add up to the numbers we are showing. Therefore, unfortunately, I think this is as good as we're going to get with TG.

Let's hope they change a bit the Fury tree as a whole and make it more ...how shall I say this...in tuned with the new 51 point talent and it's complications.

[Kazeyonoma]

I'm gonna spec 15/46/0 still but using armored to the teeth, I should still be able to put out overall more dps:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

just keep right on dual wielding 1 handers, since the net dps of TG is bad. I'd like to test that actually, getting on the PTR and testing DW Fury 1Handers using 15/46/0 versus some weird XX/51/XX spec.

[Kazeyonoma]

Here's some testing that I did, it's kinda rough, but I basically walked up to level 70 dummies,

one spec'd 15/46/0 no TG:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

using 92.1 dps weapons 1065.3 DPS using a BT, WW, Heroic Strike priority list, slamming whenever BT would crit for a free slam. Popping Recklessness and Deathwish whenever it came up.







and one spec'd TG 0/53/8:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

using 134.2 dps 2handed weapons: 987.9 dps using a BT, WW, heroic strike priority list, slamming whenever it was instant, AND weaving slams whenever rage/CD permitted. Popping Recklessness and Deathwish whenever they were up.

Basically, by spec'ing TG when 3.0.2 comes out, we can't get Impale, and with the current miss penalty, TG is coming up short. The biggest thing is that I'm using Breeching Comets versus two Season 3 Vengeful Gladiator 2handers. So I'm using WORSE weapons in the 1hand DW scenario, and still beating out TG. Despite having better stats by being able to equip the 2 2handers, AND having a higher dps, the loss of impale and hit rating penalty is basically a no go for us trying to still raid at 70. Better 1handed weapons will only further this disparity.

[Korlong]

I believe the correct observation is that Titans Grip itself is fine.

However, there are a huge number of other problems that fury currently has:

1) Itemization - Current fury warrior itemization at both level 70 and level 80 is beyond terrible. The addition of Armored to the Teeth does little to reduce the superiority of leather gear over plate, particularly with the increased importance of hit and crit in Titans Grip builds. This problem will only get worse as itemlevels increase, and I am seriously considering taking leatherworking instead of blacksmithing as a profession for WotLK.

The other major problem facing all dps warriors is the re-design of armor penetration functionality. Most warriors are too busy drooling over being able to reduce a paladin/druid's armor by 30% to realize just how bad armor penetration is now for PvE.

This is a huge problem, as up until while armor penetration has always been a relatively expensive stat to itemize for the return, it has remained one of our primary dps stats, mainly because haste and hit rating have been so terrible for DPS warriors. Our gear is covered with it, and yet blizzard sees no need to re-itemize our gear after reducing the effectiveness of armor penetration in PvE by more than half?

Before someone else points it out, this could still work out fine in the event that armor penetration was changed to apply before static debuffs.

2) Glyphs - To put it bluntly, there are none. At present the only glyph that is of any use whatsoever to Fury warriors is the Glyph of Heroic Strike, which admittedly has nice synergy with Incite. That being said, come level 80, Incite is no longer going to be a component of Fury builds; as it will be dropped in favor of two-handed specialization and impale/deep wounds.

3) Raid Viability - As it stands, Fury has been reduced from having an important buff to offer our group, to providing no raid buffs whatsoever. At the same time, we are also the most expensive and hardest class to keep alive in terms of mana. Under the current circumstances, a Fury warrior MUST be top dps to be raid-viable. This would be fine, except that Blizzard has never shown any inclination towards making this a reality. Rampage needs to be changed so that it is a useful group buff - as it stands right now the fury tree has no 41 point talent.

4) PvP - PvPing as fury sucks right now. I'm trying to PvP on the PTR, and I'm dying so fast I usually never get to attack. The only way I managed to get a feel for how Titans Grip COULD be for PvP (not bad as it turns out) was when I got the preparation bug, and essentially couldn't die. At this point I really don't think this would be overpowered:

Belligerence - After taking damage from a spell, reduces further damage taken from the same school of magic by 30% for 5 seconds. Can only proc once every 10 seconds.

A talent like this one would be immensely useful in reducing the burst currently taken by Fury Warriors from spell damage.

[Korlong]

Source: Kazeyonoma Basically, by spec'ing TG when 3.0.2 comes out, we can't get Impale, and with the current miss penalty, TG is coming up short. The biggest thing is that I'm using Breeching Comets versus two Season 3 Vengeful Gladiator 2handers. So I'm using WORSE weapons in the 1hand DW scenario, and still beating out TG. Despite having better stats by being able to equip the 2 2handers, AND having a higher dps, the loss of impale and hit rating penalty is basically a no go for us trying to still raid at 70. Better 1handed weapons will only further this disparity.

I'd like to point out that your gear is terrible for Titans Grip.

[Tatt]

I'd like to point out that your comment does absolutely nothing to help anyone reading this thread. His gear is terrible for TG...because? If you are referring to his hit rating, that's the point of his thread...he is carrying about as much as the average fury warrior is, so it is giving us a general idea.

[Korlong]

I've also compiled this list of weapons in order of how good they are for use with Titan's Grip:

1. [item]Apolyon, the Soul-Render[/item]
2. [item]The Blade of Harbingers[/item]
3. [item]Brutal Gladiator's Decapitator[/item] (etc, etc...)
4. [item]Twinblade of the Phoenix[/item]
5. [item]Vengeful Gladiator's Decapitator[/item] (etc, etc...)
6. [item]Jin'rohk, The Great Apocalypse[/item]
7. [item]Cataclysm's Edge[/item]
8. [item]Soul Cleaver[/item]

And in the event that armor penetration is fixed, probably more like:

1. [item]Apolyon, the Soul-Render[/item]
2. [item]Cataclysm's Edge[/item]
3. [item]Soul Cleaver[/item]
4. [item]The Blade of Harbingers[/item]
5. [item]Brutal Gladiator's Decapitator[/item] (etc, etc...)
6. [item]Vengeful Gladiator's Decapitator[/item] (etc, etc...)
7. [item]Twinblade of the Phoenix[/item]
8. [item]Jin'rohk, The Great Apocalypse[/item]

[Korlong]

Source: Tattman2an I'd like to point out that your comment does absolutely nothing to help anyone reading this thread. His gear is terrible for TG...because? If you are referring to his hit rating, that's the point of his thread...he is carrying about as much as the average fury warrior is, so it is giving us a general idea.

He's wearing PvP gear. The average fury warrior should be able to field at least 200 hit rating just by rotating gear pieces around. I'm able to do so even dropping the 20 I get from my warglaives without changing any enchants or gems. You can't run out and test Titans Grip in PvP gear and expect spectacular results.

He also has only 2800 attack power with battle shout. I'm running 2700+ without.

It's like saying resto is terrible because you couldn't keep your tank alive in your enhancement set. I calls 'em like I sees 'em.

Also, this is incredibly useful:

/cast Slam
/stopcasting

It does exactly what you think it does.

[Kazeyonoma]

So... I have to have the best possible gear for TG to be viable? Ah, that makes sense then. (/sarcasm off) So unless we're equipped to the TEETH with Sunwell Gear or high end t6, TG isn't even an option. Doesn't this defeat the purpose? Shouldn't TG be universally an upgrade for a 51 point talent? I mean, does a tank not pick up Devastate or Shockwave because his gear isn't quite perfect yet? Does an arms warrior not pick up Mortal Strike because he doesn't have Apolyon yet? No, because these skills are by very definition, part of a hierarchy of the talent tree, that should, without a doubt, increase my functionality of that particular tree without specific gear needs.

And the point of my test is to show that with 1 set of gear using crappy weapons, and using the same set of gear using even better weapons, the crappy weapons STILL beat out TG. Why does this not show any relevance? That I need to be able to automagically have an entire other set of gear to swap out to once TG hits? Do all fury warriors have this? I'm glad you can make the assumption that

The average fury warrior should be able to field at least 200 hit rating just by rotating gear pieces around.

but I don't buy it. And can you be 100% sure of this? Don't all the dps guides say, hit 95 hit then stack STR, CRit, ARP? I'm pretty sure a lot of high end dps'ers sit around 150 hit rating not 200. You're making a lot of assumptions about what "the average fury warrior" can and cannot do. I'm saying given our current gear, in what we would normally use to dps in, swapping from a 15/46/0 (variation of the 17/44/0) build to any TG build will show a net loss in dps. Does it matter that my dps was just barely around 1000? I'm positive if I had your gear, results would be the same but instead of 1065 DPS vs. 987 dps, it'd be somewhere in your "amazingly geared unbuffed 2700 AP" 2000 DPS vs 1800 dps. ITS STILL A DECREASE.

[Tatt]

Yeah I am gonna have to agree with kaz, your comments are sort top end of the spectrum for us mere mortals. I personally carry nearly 200 hit, but kaz is correct that I have NEVER seen a single website (elitist jerks, maxdps, wowhead, tankspot) that has ever said anything different than get hit to 95 than switch your priorities to Strength and Crit. 2700 unbuffed AP is extremely questionable.....the threads here where people were willing to gear horribly just to see what AP they could reach still capped out 2400 to 2500 AP unbuffed, and that was doing things like double 20 strength chants and 20-25% crit range stats. I am happy for you if TG works for you in your absolute end all can't be improved gear. For the rest of us mere mortals it is still failing us.

[Korlong]

Ok, the 2700 number must have been with a flask up, as my character copy happened as we started a BT raid.



Regardless, if I had [item]Blood-stained Pauldrons[/item] and two gladiator weapons, I'd be at 268 hit easy, and I'd gain about 3% crit as well. Throw in a replacement for the PvP ring ([item]Ring of a Thousand Marks[/item] or [item]Ring of Deceitful Intent[/item]), and you're pushing 280, again with no real loss.

Gear in the shot is:
[item]Helm of the Illidari Shatterer[/item]
[item]Onslaught Shoulderblades[/item]
[item]Choker of Endless Nightmares[/item]
[item]Brutal Gladiator's Plate Chestpiece[/item]
[item]Onslaught Bracers[/item]
[item]Grips of Silent Justice[/item]
[item]Onslaught Belt[/item]
[item]Legguards of Endless Rage[/item]
[item]Nyn'jah's Tabi Boots[/item]
[item]Unstoppable Aggressor's Ring[/item]
[item]Guardian's Band of Triumph[/item]
[item]Tsunami Talisman[/item]
[item]Shard of Contempt[/item]

So nothing too amazing.

[Kazeyonoma]

Then why don't you conduct the same test I did? i took only 2 minutes of dummy bashing, keep up your rotation, spec 1) 15/46/0 using 1handers (you probably have Warglaives or whatever) and see what your DPS is, then spec 2) XX/51/XX using your better weapons and gear and swap out whatever you want, and I still feel that your DPS will go down. EVEN with your higher amount of HIT. The expense of gaining that HIT to your other stats, COMBINED with the fact that you STILL haven't removed all misses means that you'll have a net decrease. I just want this proven.

[Korlong]

I'll do it, but I don't think it will be hugely relevant, as you're comparing a (more or less) ideal one-handed setup to a less than ideal Titans Grip setup.

[Tatt]

It is hugely relevany because you are using what most people would consider unreachable gear for your example. TG should work at any level of complimentary gear, not just with best in class items. Does devastate only work in full T6? It works better with BT gear, but a tank with basic acceptable stats can use it without gimping himself, so why should TG be different?

[Korlong]

I raced myself to 500,000 damage done. No sunders, I was the only person on the dummy. I used [item]Dragonspine Trophy[/item] with my Warglaives, and [item]Tsunami Talisman[/item] with Titans Grip.

1128 DPS with warglaives:


1328 with Titans Grip:


And as I said, I think I could do even better with Titans Grip with more appropriate weapons. I'm actually a little surprised at how much lower the warglaives came out (yes, I did respec, I used an incite/bloodsurge build for both).