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  #41  
Old 09-24-2007, 01:20 AM
Imi
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If you are wielding two weapons of the same speed, the game cannot calculate which one swings first, thus you essentially get four flurry charges
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  #42  
Old 09-24-2007, 01:57 AM
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If you are wielding two weapons of the same speed, the game cannot calculate which one swings first, thus you essentially get four flurry charges
Oh ok, thanks! =]
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  #43  
Old 09-24-2007, 06:42 AM
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This article really blow my mind. I mean, if what you say about hit rating is true; this is like a religious person realizing god doesn't exist.

Currently I'm at 224 hit, with six +8 hit gems stacked. Are you really telling me that I can drop all of these, land on around 170 hit and with a lot more crit and ap and do MORE dps?

There have been so utterly many posts claiming 220+ hit is a MUST and when I read this I was like "WHAT?!". I'm geared to start ssc/tk, meaning I got all I need from t4 raids, really, is this true? Because if it is I got some major resocketing to do and i'll cost me some gold. Are there anyone here who has tried both ways? Stacked ap/crit, then stacked hit and seen the difference?

Last edited by nird; 09-24-2007 at 07:10 AM.
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  #44  
Old 09-24-2007, 07:10 AM
Rak
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Yes. I dropped from about 270 hit rating to 185, and went up about 8% crit and gained some AP. I now out damage my rival in raids, a rogue with around 24% hit (I don't know the rating offhand). Before he was always ahead of me.
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  #45  
Old 09-24-2007, 07:22 AM
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I notice that I really struggle with this thought. Think I've been brainwashed to a level beyond what I thought was possible. I would really like to improve my stats, which are as follows in zerker:

hit: 224
Crit: 27,8%
ap: 1760

If I drop all my hit gems for crit/ap I will have 166 hit and not-yet-calculated ap and crit. This is really tempting to try out, but for some reason I'm afraid that if it sucks in a raid I'll get smacked by my raidleader. As a furywarrior I'm struggeling enough as it is getting in to raids atm.
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  #46  
Old 09-24-2007, 08:37 AM
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Hi, just registered to contribute what little I can to this thread.

First of all, the OP is spot on with just about everything. I have some minor issues about enchants (mostly about Crusader being ignored) but more about that later; I'll tackle the misinformation and misconceptions in the numerous replies first.

A lot of people seem to have trouble understanding why 1% increase in crit is better than 1% increase in hit even if you just consider auto attack (provided you're not crit capped, which shouldn't be the case anyway). Let's have a simple thought experiment of 100 attacks done with a static 100 damage per attack and 200 damage per crit:

20% crit and 80% hit chance:
20*200 + 60*100 = 10000 damage

Adding 1% crit:
21*200 + 59*100 = 10100 damage

Adding 1% hit instead:
20*200 + 61*100 = 10100 damage

You can change the chance of hit and crit around and change base damage and it won't change the outcome, critting makes up for the lost hit. We are also ignoring some advantages that crit has such as Impale and not being subject to glancing blows, which would tip the scale clearly in favor of crit. And lastly remember, this is just for auto attacks. After 9%, hit chance does nothing for your specials while crit obviously does.

But isn't +hit better for rage generation than +crit? Well, you could argue that hitting more provides more steady rage income than critting more, but that's about as far as you get with that. When the rage formula is considered, 1 crit is pretty much equal to 2 hits (crit receives 2x the multiplier on the static part of the formula) and again, Impale and glancing blow concerns bring crit out in front in the comparison.

Bottom line: It's easy to see that 1 crit is better than (or at least equal to) 2 hits in most situations, but that's the trade you're doing when stacking hit instead of crit. So don't do it. Only thing hit does have going for it is that it takes less hit rating (~16) to gain 1% than it does crit rating (22) but it's not nearly enough when you factor in the instant attacks that don't benefit from hit at all (after 9%).


Another issue which someone definitely got wrong here is the actual nature of PPM.

PPM is a rather outdated way of describing a frequency of randomly activated enchants, since
a) instant attacks definitely alter the scenario
b) as do haste effects (and rating).
As a result, an enchant such as Crusader with a nominal PPM of 1 will in fact proc quite a bit more in any realistic situation.

WWS

In a fight that lasted under 8 minutes, I was healed by Holy Strength healing 22 times and gained Holy Strength 12 times; what this means is that Crusader procced 22 times in under 8 minutes (and 10 of those times the last proc wasn't out yet). That's not 1 PPM that Crusader is supposed to have; it is in fact closer to 3 PPM. Admittedly I don't always get a posterior PPM high as that but it's nearly always at least 2. Oh and yes, I have Crusader only on my Main Hand (Potency on OH); this wasn't dual enchants.

It should be rather obvious that the proc chance of a PPM-based enchant is calculated as a static figure based on your weapon's speed and NOT adjusted down when under haste effects (I've heard this might be "fixed" in a future patch though). But don't take my word for it, go test it yourself.


As far as enchants go, Crusader already came up in the discussion above about PPM but I'd still like to point out that it only needs to be 20 seconds per minute to outperform Potency, which it in most scenarios will, by a rather clear margin.

Also while I realize that Mongoose will outscale Crusader eventually, I'm not convinced that such point is easily attainable with current gear. I haven't done the math on it but the simple fact that rogues get 120 AP on top of what warriors get from Mongoose, it would be utterly out of whack for Mongoose to outperform Potency/Crusader without the AP component and I can't believe Blizzard would have fumbled the balance of the enchants THAT badly.


Lastly it's a bit sad to see how easily people swallow false theorycraft (25% block needed for crush immunity, haste effects lowering rage per swing; I could go on and on) without really giving the matter much thought (or testing) themselves. When it really becomes annoying is when they come out to defend their false dogmas against new thought or tests, STILL without actually having (or being able) analyzed the matter themselves.

Cheers, Rothion.

Edit: Sheesh I don't know what I was thinking, hopefully no-one already replied to the bogus numbers in my crit vs hit thought experiment. Should be fixed now

Last edited by Rothion; 09-24-2007 at 08:56 AM.
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  #47  
Old 09-24-2007, 08:48 AM
Rak
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A good post, however I have to point out one somewhat incorrect point. When it comes specifically to Crusader, it is correct that haste effects will increase how many times per minute it procs for you. However, with enchants such as Mongoose, this is false.

As per testing found here: Proc Per Minute Mechanics & Haste - Elitist Jerks
Thread summary:
Fiery Weapon (tested on Live), Lifestealing, and Crusader (tested on the PTR) all see unchanged proc chances when hasted - i.e., they benefit from haste. All other procs tested so far on either Live or the PTR have a reduced proc chance while hasted to maintain a constant PPM.

Instant attacks use the unhasted weapon speed to determine proc chance.
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  #48  
Old 09-24-2007, 09:04 AM
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Aah good to know, I've only tested Crusader myself and assumed (yeah yeah, mother of all f**k ups) that the mechanic would be the same for other enchants.

That makes Mongoose even less appealing for DPS warriors though and in fact I've often noticed in WWS that the dual-Mongoose-toting fury warriors in my guild often don't even have as many Mongoose procs than my mainhand-only Crusader.
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  #49  
Old 09-24-2007, 09:13 AM
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After patch I will be thropwing potency on my offhand but I still feel that mongoose will out preform crusader for the main hand. I admit it would be pretty close and that if you can get crusader cheap it would be a solid way to go. In fact crusader might be better until you get to SSC. But once you have a season 2 weapon or better mongoose will outpreform.
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  #50  
Old 09-24-2007, 08:29 PM
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How good would you consider Thunderfury as an offhand?
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  #51  
Old 09-25-2007, 06:20 AM
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Thunderfury shined because of its proc and offhands will not see many of those. I would use a season 1 or kara equivelent offhand over a thunderfury. Though I have never had one so someone that does may know better.
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  #52  
Old 09-25-2007, 10:10 AM
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a good offhand from kara are the daggers, since from a fury standpoint, your offhand should be fast and generate rage with tons of stats.

what better than the 3 daggers from karazhan.

I use [item]Emerald Ripper[/item]
another choice is the famed [item]Malchazeen[/item]
or for socketing customization: [item]Blade of the Unrequited[/item]
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  #53  
Old 09-25-2007, 10:14 AM
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Speed has nothing to do with total rage generation. It is only more smooth as opposed to burst. Same end numbers though.
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  #54  
Old 09-25-2007, 10:42 AM
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agreed, i just like the smooth rage philosophy I suppose. Slow/fast has always been my preference and daggers fit the bill in the fast OH nicely with all of the stats they provide as well.

Thinking of picking up the [item]Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver[/item] once I finish my 4piece set in arenas (3 more weeks I think, then cleaver/shield) what do you think? Currently my mh is crappy its the [item]Reflex Blades[/item] but its the only slow mh weapon i can use =(
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  #55  
Old 09-25-2007, 10:44 AM
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The axe is very nice especially for an orc. Go for it. I would even get it before your 4 piece. But then again I arena for pve gear so my opinion is skewed.
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  #56  
Old 09-25-2007, 10:45 AM
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yeh i want to get my shield and fury axe already, but my 3v3 team of course wants me to gear up for the teams sake, the more I improve, the more we win. like seriously. I'm the key to the team it seems =-x
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  #57  
Old 09-28-2007, 10:07 AM
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Ok, shoot me, i'm rogue in plate.
I use the best 1H weapons i got so far: [Emerald Ripper] (OH) and [Malchazeen] (MH).
What weapon would you advise to replace Malchazeen as MH ?
We are running Kara once in a while, Gruul is on farm, Void too, and going to Lurker, Mag and Hydross in that order.
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  #58  
Old 09-28-2007, 05:12 PM
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Ok, shoot me, i'm rogue in plate.
I use the best 1H weapons i got so far: [Emerald Ripper] (OH) and [Malchazeen] (MH).
What weapon would you advise to replace Malchazeen as MH ?
We are running Kara once in a while, Gruul is on farm, Void too, and going to Lurker, Mag and Hydross in that order.
Decap/Illhoof mace in MH, Malchazeen in OH. I seem to recall 1 sword in SSC that's an upgrade on Decap.
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  #59  
Old 09-29-2007, 12:51 PM
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I've been thinking about the relation between AP and crit and I think I've come up with a fairly simple and intuitive way to estimate the AP/crit equivalence. I'm not familiar with the DW Fury dps spreadsheet and whether it's based on some sort of dps cycle or what so I might be reinventing the wheel here but my way doesn't involve a spreadsheet of any kind so it might be helpful for people who just want a quick number.

The idea is that at any given point, you can double your paperdoll dps (henceforth abbreviated pd dps) by either getting enough AP (14 times your current pd dps) to double it or getting 100% crit. Neither goal can be realized in most situations nor is pdl dps very representative of your actual dps, but for comparison purposes I feel it is fairly decent indicator of potential dps (all other things being equal, a player with higher pd should out dps another player with lower pd dps roughly by the ratio of their pd dps). Your white damage of course scales 1:1 with your paperdoll dps and so does Whirlwind; Bloodthirst however scales slightly faster, doubling your pd dps via AP would give 14 times your main hand DPS damage to your BT in addition to doubling it. But then again there's Impale to balance the situation somewhat.

It should also be noted that gaining 100% more damage is a linear process whether you do it with AP or crit, so 1% crit is worth the same at any given point (as is the equivalent amount of AP).

Anyway, with all that said the formula is actually very simple:

(AP equivalent to 1% crit) = ([current main hand paperdoll dps]*14)/100

For example with my mostly itemlevel ~115-130 (Decapitator MH, 1743 unbuffed AP) gear this works out to be 216*0.14 = 30.24 =~ 30. Adding 50 dps from raid buffs (700 AP, picked as an easy number) would give me 37 AP to 1% crit equivalence (if you're interested in gem equivalence, just multiply the number by 0.36 for 8 crit rating gems).

I'll be happy answer any questions/comments.
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  #60  
Old 09-30-2007, 12:01 AM
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I suppose by paperdoll dps you mean white dps right?

You should include flurry somewhere in your estimation, as it changes the importance of crit % drastically.
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