[Squirrelnut]

I am likely just a victim of the feeling that the grass is always greener on the other side, but I can't help but think my off-spec Arms DPS is a little lackluster and wonder if Fury might serve me better as I get more gear upgrades.

With that in mind, I was wondering if anyone has any ideas about when Fury begins to out-scale Arms for DPS? I am looking at more end-game raiding, not fresh 80s.

Currently as Arms my setup is this:
Chardev link: character planner . squirrelnut - arms . chardev seven
Gear highlights: 4pc T9, ilvl 245 polearm, Grim Toll
Stat highlights (just food): 261 hit, 14 exp, 35.81% crit, 4744 AP, 57.51% ArP (+ trinket proc)
Landsoul projected max DPS: ~7492

If switch to Fury my setup would be this:
Chardev link: character planner . squirrelnut - fury . chardev seven
Gear highlights: 4pc T9, ilvl 245 & 232 swords, Grim Toll (hope to upgrade to Mjolnir)
Stat highlights (just food): 261 hit, 24 exp, 41% crit, 5503 AP, 40.15% ArP (+ trinket proc)
Landsoul projected max DPS: ~7563

**UPDATE** I just got a heroic Edge of Agony last night which changed my stats as you can see above. Have I reached the point where I should switch over to Fury? According to the Landsoul spreadsheet the DPS potential is finally out scaling Arms.

[Squirrelnut]

Also if I switch to Fury I am only up to 24 expertise even counting expertise food. Does that cause much of a problem?

[MellvarTank]

To me it is always a case of how do you want to play? I know that it is possible to squeeze a little more dps out of fury than arms, but if you like playing arms than you should probably just stick with it. I would try to get up to the 24 expertise without the food, then use the 40 str. food as a buff though.

I think anywhere between 23-26 expertise is generally good for not missing too often.

[Squirrelnut]

I just want to min/max and do whatever I can. I have played both arms/fury before and I don't really care what I use just as long as I put out the most damage.

I would like to improve my expertise but I don't want to take the easy way out and throw on an expertise trinket (I have heroic vengeance of the forsaken) but beyond that I am not really sure what gear change I should be looking for to bring it up.

[Facesmasher]

But you loose raidbuffs when you change from Arms to Fury, so raidwise I guess you "do" more damage as Arms, since you buff all physical DPS.

[Squirrelnut]

Depends on raid composition to a certain extent because Arms brings bleed buffs while Fury brings crit buffs.

I will likely poke through our WoL meters to see how our raid-wide damage is effected by me being Fury vs Arms but last night on Heroic 25m Jaraxxus (as Fury) I didn't really notice any change on the damage that our other DPS classes were doing so I think my spec has minimal impact on other players.

EDIT: It is hard to tell how much impact my spec has because I am our guild MT so I RARELY get to DPS anyway so I don't have much information to compare

[Facesmasher]

I bring Arms to our raids because we have a critty cat :-\ Didnt consider people not having that But I think 5% crit > 4% from Blood Frenzy atleast.

[Kavtor]

Fury tends to take off in late Ulduar gear, so you're well over the gap.
Also, once you start getting a more than trivial amount of haste on your gear it's a good idea to switch over to get some value out of the stat.

[Squirrelnut]

I can't decide what would be the best approach to pickup some expertise for the Fury set. I am only at 19 expertise right now from gear and it would be nice to get closer to the 26 soft cap.

I really don't want to cheat and use vengeance of the forsaken because it would remove my Grim Toll and give me too much expertise taking me up to 29 which is a waste (plus I still hope to get a Mjolnir's trinket to replace Grim Toll anyway).

Obviously the ilvl245 version of the Tier legs would be nice to have and boost expertise up a bit but that would still only take me up to about 20 total (and I don't get to bid on trophies since DPS is my off spec )

EDIT:
Last night was my first night as Fury (no practice time on a target dummy or anything, set my talents mid-raid to DPS for Jaraxxus lol) here was the log on Heroic 25m Jaraxxus: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
On the kill I did 6563DPS

And for comparison purposes here was the previous week on Jaraxxus as Arms: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
On the kill I did 6956DPS

So I went down a bit but considering I had no time to practice my rotation or anything I figure that could be greatly improved as I get more used to it. Any suggestions from things I did wrong based off that WoL meter from 11-5-09?

[Squirrelnut]

Another quick question, what do people think of these fury specs/glyphs?:

My Current Spec: 19/52 (with Commanding Presence) -- better for 5m heroics lawl
Possible New Spec: 19/52 (without Commanding Presence) -- seems to have more 25m raid potential since Pallys put up Might and this improves my Cleave

[Thegreatme]

if you are really struggling to get expertise I would say gem for it, it's going to be a bigger DPS increase that gemming for strength.

Honestly it's going to be on your raid compsition that will determine what spec is going to be more useful. if you have feral druids they are going to love you as arms. but fury has better sustained AoE (Fury rocks the house on 25HC anub compared to arms). With more practice you will probably see a personal DPS increase from being fury but you should be considering:
Personal DPS gain/loss from being fury/arms
Raid DPS gain/loss from being fury/arms

if your personal DPS gain is higher than the DPS loss of your other members as one spec then go that spec.

honestly if you are doing heroic ToC 25 then you aren't going to need unbridled wrath or anger management, the combination of random raid damage, as well as your gear are going to generate enough rage. another thing is that even though you won't be using battle shout having 5/5 commanding presence is still pretty important if it's your job to do commanding shout (IE if you don't already have another warrior with 5/5 commanding presence). Heroic fury is pretty mediocre in my opinion but I haven't spec'ed in to it for an extended period of time so I could be missing out, same thing with imp execute. in ToC imp cleave is amazing right now because every fight has at least one part that will allow for the use of cleave.

[Squirrelnut]

We don't have any DPS druids currently (cept sometimes a boomkin) otherwise I would have been a lot more likely to stay Arms to help their bleeds out

[MellvarTank]

Well, if I am reading that log right then I am reading 29 Slam procs and 7 hits. O.o

If that is the case then that is your problem right there. I am, however, unfamiliar with the world of logs format, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Squirrelnut]

I am not sure, I don't see anything mentioning Bloodsurge Procs. I wouldn't be surprised however because I hadn't used fury before and had trouble hearing the proc notification sound. I will tweak my setup and expect to do much better after some Boss Dummy practice.

EDIT: Never mind, on the Buffs Gained section it simply refers to it as Slam! but if you mouse over it is the Bloodsurge proc and you are correct there were 29 of them but only 7 used (fail lol).

EDIT2: Actually it is nice to see something that I can so clearly improve upon to do substantially more damage in the future

[MellvarTank]

I like the electricity sound that MSBT uses, and it is so drastically different from every other sound in the game that I always hear it. Those slam procs are tricky sometimes though, I've noticed one fight every hit will trigger it, and on another fight I'll get it maybe once.

For such a "simple" rotation, Fury is actually quite tough to do well. lol

[Squirrelnut]

I will checkout the electricity sound, I thought it was similar to something DBM/Infernals did. Perhaps I will switch to the Murlock sound, it is very distinguishable and is completely different from any of the DBM sounds

Fury does take a little practice to get rage management down and ideal proc usage but all in all I think Arms takes a lot more effort/skill to utilize every single GCD correctly for maximum DPS. It is a nice change going Fury and being able to move/interrupt/aoe more easily