[Armstrong]

Last updated November 30 2007.

Credits to Ciderhelm for first demonstrating the potential of Devastate back on the 2.0 PTR (or was it the BC Beta?) and providing most of what we now know about the ability.

Credits to Satrina for testing and figuring out the mechanics behind the new Devastate on the 2.3 test realms. The source material for many figures in this FAQ can be found here and here.


Note: This document assumes a level 70 warrior with Sunder Armor (Rank 6) and Devastate (Rank 3) trained, 3/3 Focused Rage, and 3/3 Imp. Sunder Armor and 5 Sunders on the target, except when noted otherwise. All threat values are before Defensive Stance and Defiance modifiers. All damage values used for the purpose of calculating threat are considered to be after mitigation from armor.

Some answers include subjective elements based on my own experience and that of other warriors, and may or may not reflect your own experiences depending on your spec, gear and many other factors.

Devastate (Rank 3) 15 Rage, 5 yd range Instant Requires One-Handed Melee Weapon Sunder the target's armor causing the Sunder Armor effect. In addition, causes 50% of weapon damage plus 35 for each application of Sunder Armor on the target. The Sunder Armor effect can stack up to 5 times.

What exactly happens when I hit the Devastate button?

1. The ability first checks against the mob's chance to Block, Dodge, Parry, and your chance to either Miss or Crit.
   
   
2. If you land a Hit or a Crit, the ability then checks for the presence of the Sunder Armor debuff on the target.
   
   If the number of Sunders is between 0 and 4, Devastate will apply a Sunder to the mob. The Sunder will generate its own threat (301), as if it had been applied normally using the Sunder Armor ability. This Sunder does not cost you extra rage.
   
   If the number of Sunders equals 5, Devastate refreshes the duration of the Sunder debuff to 30 seconds, but does not cause the threat of another Sunder.
   
   If an armor-reducing debuff that is superior to a Sunder (520 armor) is already present on the mob, you will get the error message "A more powerful debuff is already active". Devastate will be unable to apply a Sunder, and the 301 threat from Sunder will not be applied. Devastate will however deal its normal damage and its own innate threat calculated with zero Sunders on the mob.
   
   
3. Devastate then applies its own innate threat based on the following formula:
   
   105 + 15 * #Sunders
   
   where "#Sunder" represents the number of Sunders on the target. If Devastate was able to apply a Sunder based on the rules described above, that new Sunder is factored into the calculation of the innate threat generated by the current Devastate hit.
   
   
4. Damage is then dealt based on the following formula:
   
   WeaponDamage /2 + 35 * #Sunders
   
   WeaponDamage represent the damage dealt by your main hand weapon, factoring in normalized Attack Power. See below for details on how Devastate damage is calculated. #Sunders represents the number of Sunders on the target. If Devastate was able to apply a Sunder based on the rules described above, that new Sunder is factored into the calculation of the damage dealt by the current Devastate hit. If you landed a crit, the final damage is doubled.
   
   The damage dealt generates its own threat at the normal rate of 1 point of threat for 1 point of damage, before any threat modifiers are applied.

How much damage does Devastate do?

The formula for Devastate(Rank3) is as follows:

(WeaponDamage ÷ 2) + (35 × #Sunders) * Mitigation%

where

#Sunders = Number of Sunders stacked on target
Mitigation% = Target's damage mitigation from Armor

"Weapon Damage" is the damage you deal with one normal "white" hit, which is based on the basic damage range of the weapon you have equipped, plus damage from attack power.

Like many other "instant" melee attacks, Devastate calculates the damage bonus from Attack Power based on a formula that uses a "normalized" weapon speed. Blizzard implemented this to reduce the viability gap between slow and fast weapons when used for "instant" attacks that are based on weapon damage. In other words, instant attacks using a slow weapon will still deal more damage than using a fast weapon, but the difference is not as big as it would be without the normalization. With all 1H weapons except daggers, the Attack Power component of Weapon Damage is calculated based on a speed of 2.4. With daggers the speed is 1.7.

Normalize - WoWWiki, the Warcraft wiki
Patch 1.8 (Release Notes) - WoWWiki, the Warcraft wiki


The first Devastate on a target with 0 Sunders will apply one Sunder, and deal close to the equivalent of 50% of a normal white hit, plus 35, before mitigation from armor. The second Devastate will add a second Sunder, and deal 50% of weapon damage, plus 70 before mitigation from armor, so on and so forth. Using Devastate on the same target after 5 Sunders are applied will deal 50% weapon damage plus 175 before mitigation from armor.

This means that Devastate always deals the most damage with 5 Sunders on the target.

Also note that Devastate is affected by the One-Handed Weapon Specialization talent (10% damage increase), which most tanks should have. Devastate damage is also affected by talents and abilities that increase overall damage or crit bonus, such as Enrage and Impale.

Can you give an example of how to calculate the average Devastate damage with a specific weapon and gear setup?

Our example tank, with a few buffs, has 1000 attack power, 10% chance to crit and uses a [item]King's Defender[/item].

First find the average base damage of King's Defender by adding the low-end and top-end damage and dividing by two:

(98 +182) / 2 = 140

Add damage from attack power, normalized to 2.4 speed for all one-hand weapons, 1.7 for all daggers:

1000 / 14 * 2.4 = 171. This is the amount of damage per hit provided by attack power alone.

140 + 171 = 311. This is the Weapon Damage component of Devastate for our example tank.

Divide weapon damage by two and add 35 for each sunder on the target:

311 / 2 + 175 = 331. This is the average Devastate damage for our example tank before factoring crit rate and the target's mitigation from armor.

Critical hits deal double damage, so the tank's crit chance can be added to the average Devastate damage. Note that a 10% crit chance will add a little more than 10% overall damage due to the fact that a certain number of Devastates will miss or be dodged, blocked or parried, which in turn means that the proportion of successful attacks that are crits will be higher than 10%. For the sake of simplicity and conservative figures, let's just add a flat 10%:

331 + 10% =or= 331 * 1.1 = 364

Then factor in the damage mitigation that the target gains from its armor value. This varies greatly from one mob (or player) to the next, but is rarely below 20% or above 40%. Let's use 30% for this example:

364 - 30% =or= 364 * 0.7 = 255. This is the final, average damage dealt by all successful Devastates in this example, factoring in crits and mitigation from armor.

How much threat does Devastate generate?

Depends how much your Devastates hit for. With five Sunders on your target, Devastate has a "bonus" threat of 180. This is in additon to normal threat from damage dealt. For example if your Devastate hits for 200 after mitigation from armor, you are generating (180 + 200) = 380 threat per use.

But the tooltip doesn't make any mention of added threat like the tooltips for other abilities like Shield Slam and Sunder Armor.

The testing method used to figure out the innate threat of Devastate is described here.

Does Devastate generate more threat per hit than Sunder Armor?

Depends how much your Devastates hit for, but in every and all realistic situations, yes.

Sunder Armor generates 301 threat. This means that with five Sunders on the target your Devastate only needs to deal (301 - 180) = 121 damage to generate as much threat as Sunder armor.

Considering that with five Sunders on the target Devastate deals a flat 175 damage in addition to 1/2 of your weapon damage, the only way a level 70 warrior would deal anywhere near 121 damage, even after mitigation from the target's armor, would be by going out of their way to use a very low-level weapon and / or un-equipping most or all strength or attack power gear.

But when I first engage a mob with zero Sunders, my first Devastate usually deals less than 121 damage.

Yes, but your first five Devastate that land on the mob simultaneously apply a Sunder Armor that provides its own 301 innate threat in addition to the innate threat and damage-based threat of Devastate.

Does Devastate always generate more threat per rage point spent than Sunder Armor?

Since patch 2.3, yes.

Devastate now benefits from the Improved Sunder Armor talent, so there is no longer any way for Devastate to cost more rage than Sunder Armor.

In what ways is Devastate better than Sunder Armor?

Devastate deals damage to the target.
Devastate generate more threat.
Devastate can crit and therefore generate added threat from the extra damage.
Devastate deals more damage (and threat) as your gear improves.
Devastate deals more damage (and threat) with buffs.
Devastate damage (and threat) benefits from damage-increasing talents.

Is there any reason at all to use Sunder Armor when you have Devastate?

For the vast majority of people, no.

Some tanks like using a "mouseover-Sunder" macro to apply threat to crowd-controlled targets without actually breaking the crowd-control effect. I can't realy think of any other uses, but if you have another use for Sunder I'd love to hear about it.

Would there ever be a situation where Devastate should be used even when Revenge is lit up?

Rarely. Particularly since the changes made to Revenge in patch 2.1.0.

Revenge (Rank 8) generates threat from (Damage) + (201 bonus threat). Assuming an average of 350 Revenge damage after mitigation from armor, that's a whopping 551 threat total. You would have to hit for 371 with Devastate to generate as much threat as Revenge. While Devastate scales with gear and Revenge doesn't, it's not likely we'll ever have access to tanking gear that yields that much Devastate damage before the level cap is raised again.

If threat is the priority, continue to use Revenge every time it's lit up. If threat (and/or rage cost) is not a factor and you can Devastate for 350 damage or more (still unlikely in tanking gear), skip Revenge and use Devastate for the added damage.

The one important exception to consider is in the beginning of a fight while applying the first few Sunders using Devastate. For most level 70 tanks, the 3rd, 4th and 5th Devastate will generate more threat than Revenge due to the added threat from Sunder Armor. In those early seconds of an encounter, assuming the 7 rage difference is not an issue, you'll generate the most threat by choosing to use Devastate over Revenge. After five Sunders are up, Devastate no longer applies Sunders or the threat of Sunder, so Revenge should always take priority over Devastate from that point on.

So fast weapon or slow weapon for raiding?

Fast (when tanking).

Due to Devastate using a normalized speed for AP calculations, and because the ability only factors in 50% of weapon damage, weapon speed doesn't have nearly as much of an effect on Devastate as it does on Heroic Strike.

When raiding, you'll typically be generating enough rage to queue up Heroic Strike on almost every hit, and the rate at which you can use Heroic Strike is invertly proportional with your weapon speed. So even while spamming Devastate, the frequency at which you can use Heroic Strike will still have the largest impact on your DPS and threat generation (which is the reason why fast weapons were always better for tanking in the first place).

The notable exception to this rule is with daggers. Because they are normalized to 1.7 speed for AP calculations on instant attacks, daggers deal noticeably lower damage with Devastate.


Slow for secondary aggro

Carrying a slow weapon for higher Devastate numbers is a good idea for those fights where you need to remain second on a mob or boss' threat list. Since you'll only be gaining rage from your own white damage, a Shield Slam every 6 seconds should be priority number one, but if you have enough rage (and the gear for it), high-damage Devastates with a slow weapon in between the Shield Slams should be next on your list.

Slow weapon for solo grinding then?

Yes.

If you own a slow weapon with a base DPS comparable to your fast tanking weapon, and ideally with damage-increasing stats, use it for higher Devastate damage in situations where you don't generate enough rage to spam Heroic Strike.

5-man trash mobs?

Tanking trash mobs in non-heroic 5-man instances usually qualifies as a low-rage situation, so a slow weapon would be beneficial, as long as it has base DPS comparable to that of your fast weapon.

Is Devastate necessary for any type of tanking?

No, but hard to pass up.

Shield Slam (combined with 5/5 1H specialization and 3/3 Shield Mastery) still provides the biggest overall threat (and damage) improvement beyond Defiance, and many tanks do just fine without Devastate. Stopping at Shield Slam or Focused Rage allows for picking up more Arms or Fury talents for hybrid builds that lend themselves to PvP or leveling up.

However since patch 2.3, Devastate has undisputedly earned its position as a 41-point talent. For any warrior who will be tanking raid bosses, it's almost impossible to consider going without the added threat of Devastate. In addition, the lowered rage cost and the built-in application of Sunders has dramatically increased the viability of using Devastate for dual-wielding in "fury" gear for solo content or group DPS.

I hope this FAQ was helpful. Please feel free to post any questions or topics that haven't been covered here and I will gladly update the document as necessary.

[Armstrong]

List of average Devastate damage for various TBC weapons

Note: This section was meant to demonstrate the damage potential of Devastate before patch 2.3 when in some cases the innate threat combined with the threat from damage combined were not always higher than the threat of Sunder, either on a threat-per-rage basis or in some cases on a threat-per-hit basis. The 2.3 buff completely eliminates that issue so this section has become somewhat irrelevant. That said, the numbers presented here are still accurate post-2.3.

To calculate Devastate damage for a given weapon, follow these steps:

1) Find the weapons' average base damage by adding the low-end and top-end damage and dividing by 2.

Fireguard: (94 + 176) / 2 = 135

2) Find the bonus weapon damage from Attack Power. Devastate is normalized, so a multiplier of 2.4 is used regardless of the weapon's actual speed. 14 AP grants 1 DPS.

1000 AP: 1000 / 14 * 2.4 = 171.43

3) Add the base weapon damage and damage from AP:

135 + 171.43 = 306.43

4) Divide final weapon damage by 2, then add 35 per Sunder on the target

(306.34 / 2) + (35 * 5) = 153.21 + 175 = 328.21


Every mob has a certain amount of armor which reduces all melee damage by a fixed percentage. The percentage values listed below indicate various levels of mitigation from armor after 5 Sunder. 40% represents your warrior-type plate-wearing mob with a shield, or mechanical mobs like Curator and Void Reaver. 10% represents cloth-wearing caster mobs like Shade of Aran.

Numbers in bold are average Devastate damage after mitigation from armor on the target. Extra damage from crits is included in that number.

For example, in the first section, a 10% crit chance is included. So against a target with 30% mitigation, normal Devastates with Fireguard would hit for an average of 230, or 253 when factoring 10% crit chance.


Pre-raid tank gear, 10-man raid buffed
1000 AP, 10% crit

[item]Fireguard[/item]
(328.21 base)
40% 217
30% 253
20% 289
10% 325

[item]Terokk's Nightmace[/item]
(332.46 base)
40% 219
30% 256
20% 293
10% 329

[item]Warp-Storm Warblade[/item]
(321.71 base)
40% 212
30% 248
20% 283
10% 318

[item]Truncheon of Five Hells[/item]
(325.21 base)
40% 215
30% 250
20% 286
10% 322

[item]Millennium Blade[/item]
(330.21 base)
40% 218
30% 254
20% 291
10% 327

[item]Grom'tor's Charge[/item]
(314.46 base)
40% 208
30% 242
20% 277
10% 311

[item]Crystalblade of the Draenei[/item]
(310.96 base)
40% 205
30% 239
20% 274
10% 307

[item]Shaarde the Lesser[/item]
(320.96 base)
40% 212
30% 247
20% 282
10% 318

[item]Crystalline Kopesh[/item]
(323.96 base)
40% 214
30% 249
20% 285
10% 321


Pre-raid DPS gear (Dual-Wielding), self buffed
1200 ap 15% crit

[item]Drakefist Hammer[/item] / [item]The Planar Edge[/item]
(391.6 base)
40% 270
30% 315
20% 360
10% 405

[item]Reflex Blades[/item]
(374.6 base)
40% 258
30% 302
20% 345
10% 388

[item]Demonblood Eviscerator[/item]
(371.1 base)
40% 256
30% 299
20% 341
10% 384

[item]Mag'hari Fury Brand[/item]
(356.1 base)
40% 246
30% 287
20% 328
10% 369


Karazhan / Heroic tank gear, 25-man raid buffed
1400 AP, 15% crit

[item]Blazeguard[/item]
(368 base)
40% 254
30% 296
20% 339
10% 381

[item]King's Defender[/item]
(365 base)
40% 252
30% 294
20% 336
10% 378

[item]The Sun Eater[/item]
(361.75 base)
40% 250
30% 291
20% 333
10% 374

[item]Honor's Call[/item] / [item]Warbringer[/item]
(368 base)
40% 254
30% 296
20% 339
10% 381


Karazhan / Heroic DPS gear, 25-man raid buffed
2000 AP, 20% crit

[item]The Decapitator[/item]
(466.18 base)
40% 336
30% 392
20% 448
10% 503

[item]Dragonmaw[/item] / [item]Black Planar Edge[/item]
(469.43 base)
40% 338
30% 394
20% 451
10% 507

[item]Spiteblade[/item]
(464.68 base)
40% 335
30% 390
20% 446
10% 502

[item]Fool's Bane[/item]
(460.18 base)
40% 331
30% 387
20% 442
10% 497

[item]The Bladefist[/item]
(455.18 base)
40% 328
30% 382
20% 437
10% 492

[item]Vindicator's Brand[/item] / [item]Blinkstrike[/item]
(451.93 base)
40% 325
30% 380
20% 434
10% 488

[Ciderhelm]

TankSpot - Warcraft Warrior's Reference - Armstrong Devastate FAQ

[Crimsonstorm]

I find devastate to be superior in all situations to sunder, provided a reasonably high level of gear (Kings Defender).

It has been shown that 200 dmg devastate = sunder in terms of aggro generation per second, and 300 dmg devastate = sunder for threat per rage.


For the following reasons, I believe devastate is always superior:

1) Threat per second is more important than threat per rage. In a raid situation, incoming raid his high. Under any reasonable circumstance, youre going to use an ability every 1.5 seconds. The only advantage of 'saving' 3 rage by using a 3/3 talented sunder, is that it gives you another 1/6 or so of a heroic strike. Given this, its really more in the range of a 250 damage devastate that is as efficient for threat as a sunder, in low rage situations.

2) Devastate crits, sunder doesnt. With a 10% unbuffed crit rate vs a 73 mob (pretty standard for a warrior with Cruelty, and reasonable Agi from the tier pieces), that 200 dmg devastate is now at 220 on average. WIth 15+% buffed crit (kings, agi boosts, feral druid boost, etc), its more.

3) Devastate deals damage. Doing a couple hundred damage per devastate is like 400 more per 6 second rotation of 4 abilities (SS/Rev/Dev/Dev). This is a substantial dps increase. Its kindof like turning one of your raid's average dpsers into a top dpser.

4) Devastate procs mongoose and other chance on hit abilities. Using devastate over sunder results in significantly more mongoose procs, which increases your armor, avoidance, crit rate, and haste. This increases your effectiveness in all aspects of tanking. It is absolutely true that devastate procs these aiblities. When DPSing/grinding, I use Dragonmaw and chance on hit trinkets. Devastate causes me to proc mongoose, the dragonmaw haste, and trinket effects like Dragonspine trophy and Romeo's poison vial MUCH more often.



The only possible situation in which sunder could be better is in a low rage situation. In this situation, you dont have enough rage to heroic strike at all. In these low rage situations (no heroic strikes), slow weapons are more effective than fast weapons, because they allow for BIG devastates. (Which will then be better threat per rage than sunder). People who believe that fast weapons are better even in low rage situations because they 'help early threat generation' are wrong. The threat generated is the same. A fast weapon helps you generate more threat due to more heroic strikes. The way to reduce the chance of low early threat generation is by stacking hit rating.

Thus, in a low rage situation the correct thing to do is not to use sunder over devastate, but rather to use a slow weapon, and then generate more devastate threat and damage.


Also, when you always use devastate with 5 sunders, you only have to sunder 5 times per mob. This allows you to possibly move points from IMp. Sunder into something else.

[Tankage]

Source: Crimsonstorm I find devastate to be superior in all situations to sunder, provided a reasonably high level of gear (Kings Defender).

Sorry I'm a newb, but do you mean Devastate is superior in all situations to sunder (provided gearing) after the five initial sunders have been applied?

[TheZ]

Yes, as long as your Devastate hits for more than 200 @ 70 with 5 sunders. It's almost impossible to not reach that sort of number unless your useing like a level 50 green or something.

[Armstrong]

I finally got around to putting together a weapon-specific list of average Devastate damage. See post #2 above.

[Armstrong]

I've updated the FAQ to reflect the 2.3 changes. A few questions have been removed, a few new questions have been added, and everything else should be accurate and relevant to the new 2.3 incarnation of Devastate. I'm also working on some diagrams in graphic form, which I will add "when I get around to it".

Please let me know if you find any errors of have any suggestions to improve the document.

[Ciderhelm]

Stuck!

[Pinnick]

I'm a little late.. but this is nice work.

[Armstrong]

Thanks!

[Horgar]

What exactly happens when I hit the Devastate button?

Is that also the order you have seen it happening? Because my testing indicates that the damage of devastate is applied before the sunder check/effects.... this may or may not be a new thing since some people are thinking devastates dmg went down drastically.

[Armstrong]

Source: Horgar Is that also the order you have seen it happening? Because my testing indicates that the damage of devastate is applied before the sunder check/effects.... this may or may not be a new thing since some people are thinking devastates dmg went down drastically.

That's based on Satrina's findings here (item 6 in the summary). I'd be happy to consider other sources if you can post your test results and methodology.

[Horgar]

I don't really see anything in that post regarding when the damage hits. It's all revolving around innate threat of devastate. They hit for 85-100 every time including the far max and min.

My test was simple. I went in tank gear with no buffs and no proccing trinkets/enchants against a mob with no dmg debuffing ability. I used thunderclap to establish mitigation and then recorded initial devastate hits.

lvl 71 flayer in bem - thunderclap hit for ~ 145-147.
I have imp thunderclap so 246 is the tooltip amount. That comes out to about 40.7% mitigation.

Lets calc what devastate would be with no sunders and no bonus (just 50% normalized weapon dmg).
Firegaurd - 94 - 176 dmg. +7 dmg enchant. imp 1h 5/5.
((94+176)/2 + 7)/2 = 71dmg from weapon
((868 AP / 14) * 2.4) / 2 = 74.4 from normalized AP bonus
145.4 * 1.1 = 159.94 total avg dmg after imp 1h

And apply 40.7% mitigation - ~95dmg which is where my initial devastate always fell. 2nd one after 1 sunder was up was always just a bit more than +35 (to account for reduced mitigation *and* +35 dmg). Again, I have no idea if this is how it was before.

[Armstrong]

Was that in Battle stance?

Anyway, just to make sure I follow, and assuming the Sunder being applied is taken into account for that Devastate's innate threat bonus, what would be the sequence of events when you hit the button?

So far this is what it like sounds to me:

1. Check # of sunders and determine damage bonus (#Sunders × 35)
2. Deal damage and threat from damage
3. If # Sunders < 5, apply a Sunder
4. Check # of Sunders and determine innate threat bonus
5. Apply innate threat to the target

[Horgar]

Yes battle stance. I didn't do any threat testing, only damage, so whatever your conclusions are there are what I'd agree with =).

[Arideni]

The first Devastate on a target with 0 Sunders will apply one Sunder, and deal close to the equivalent of 50% of a normal white hit, plus 35, before mitigation from armor. The second Devastate will add a second Sunder, and deal 50% of weapon damage, plus 70 before mitigation from armor, so on and so forth. Using Devastate on the same target after 5 Sunders are applied will deal 50% weapon damage plus 175 before mitigation from armor.

Is this a mistake? The formula as I calculated should be 180 (add 105, not 100).

A little farther down, the author also comes up with 180:

Depends how much your Devastates hit for. With five Sunders on your target, Devastate has a "bonus" threat of 180. This is in additon to normal threat from damage dealt. For example if your Devastate hits for 200 after mitigation from armor, you are generating (180 + 200) = 380 threat per use.

Did I just read something wrong or..?

EDIT: I think it was just a coincidence of similar numbers which got me confused. It appears the 175 is the +damage portion while 180 is the innate threat, correct?

[Norrath]

One is bonus damage, one is bonus threat.

You deal 35 extra damage per Devastate, and get 176 extra threat for 5 Sunders (which apparently is taken as 180 in the FAQ; 176 is from Satrina's tests). If your normal unmodified Devastate hits for 100, you'd do 275 damage (100 + 35 * 5) and 351 (100 + 35 * 5 + 176) threat (before stance modifiers and without considering armor).

[kavic6]

hi, and thx for this guide (make me change my mind on devastate).

is it better for the threat generation and threat per second with devastate to tank with a dps weapon like Decapitor for ThePrince or keep the usual def weapons?
(i have [The Sun Eater])

[Marn]

Fast weapons tend to be better because remember you're still dumping a lot of rage into heroic strike (assuming infinite rage...rage starved you're probably better off with a slow weapon though but more often than not assume the first case with infinite rage).

The actual difference in TPS between a slow and fast weapon isn't very huge unless you're comparing an extremely fast dagger with an extremely slow mace/sword/axe; stuff in the middle just sort of blends together.