[Bodasafa]

Source: Ringthane Lots of lip service in here. "I tank because I love tanking. I love being in control, I love making decisions, blah blah blah." Bull. If you love it so much, you'd do it whenever you could. You'd jump at every chance you could get. The truth is, you all tank because it feeds your egos. No more, no less. If that weren't the reason, you'd be a DPS class, or a healer. You want to be the guy in the front that pulls everything together for the group/raid. Ah well. What do I know? My rogue's more damn fun than my tank any day.

You dont have a clue son. I cant even begin to tell you how wrong what you said is. Please just go play your rouge instead of making yourself look stupid.

Tanking is fun. Just like DPS'n is fun. Anyone who plays any class does so for enjoyment. This is a game, its saposed to be fun eh? So if somone decides they dont want to do somthing because it isnt fun for them, NO MATTER WHAT CLASS. You should dam well respect that.

[Foolishness]

I would often rather pug with geared experienced people, than run under geared and under skilled guild members through heroics.

When i first started tanking, i never did anything with my guild because I wanted to learn how to play and get some gear before i wasted any of my guild members time. I did the hard yards and got gear through rep, normal instances etc before moving onto heroics. In a way i expect the kind of effort from my fellow guild members.

I do not look kindly upon a fresh toon in all greens/ blues/pvp epics wanting a heroic magisters run, no matter who they are

Sure being able to play well doesn't come from gear, but my philosophy is that most of the time, you probably have not learned the finer points of your class until you actually have the heroic/ rep gear. You don't learn to play from leveling. Theres plenty of budding and enthusiastic tanks pugging instances. If they are not choosing you, your armory probably doesn't look good enough yet, or you might have a stupid class like a boomkin. Any class that cannot CC has to gear up much more than a mage/rogue before they will become useful enough to bring to a group as far as i'm concerned.

[ttocs]

I came on to help out and do my job, which is tanking. I didn't come on to be a guild's bitch.

As a tank that has been in sunwell since 2.4 PTR, heroics are not interesting. MgT was interesting when 2.4 came out for a short while, and while I'll still tank it every once in a while because it can still be challenging, it's silly to run someone's alt through heroic mech again.

What am I doing on my off time? I'm on my rogue, either farming or doing dailies, or whatever. Or reading up/watching videos on the current progression boss.

Does that mean I won't help out on our Gruul DST run to get our main raiders a shot at a trinket that's eluded them for over a year? No.

With that said, my guild still runs BT every week, because some people need stuff from there. Some people came out of retirement to help us out in sunwell, some people rerolled toons... when we killed twins, we had two alts in there that were healers, since we stack 10-11 healers there - they're in full T6.

Fortunately, I haven't run into too much issue in this guild. The other tanks are far more lazy than I am when it comes to heroics, and we have a fair amount of properly-geared alt tanks that can run instances up to and including early BT/Hyjal.

Don't expect anyone to do anything for you, and don't expect anyone to pay you back. And, as far as I'm concerned, favors aren't currency. I would be more willing to help someone who has helped me, but I don't expect an even exchange of "I'll run you through this, you run me through that".

[gyre]

I'm a 5/8 T6 BT/MH/SWP MT.

However, I actually *enjoy* joining the LFG channel at 2am in the morning, and just waiting for a group to post missing a tank for a heroic (or even normal) 5-man.

Why am I so silly? Probably cos I love just doing a leeroy in heroic ramparts etc. with no crowd control. It's actually fun to see how much you can take on

I do weekly kara runs with undergeared guilds or even pugs, for the fun, and also to get badges which I turn into gems and then cash, which pays for the next week's repairs and consumables.

What I won't do, however, is be pressured into doing anything I don't want to do. Guilt trips don't work on me, ever. In fact, they're more likely to have the opposite effect of what the giver planned.

I need a life

-- gyre --

[Loon]

Pugged 95% of all my instance rep with pug's on normal (i'm exalted with every instance faction in tbc), so would say i have done my fair share of instances now.
so now im "allergic" to pug's and basicly every instance, both normal and heroic.

one thing alot of ppl tend to forget is that tanks normaly have to farm res sets that nobody else have to, and it's not like every guild help out their tanks with that.
on my server, then basicly everything that tanks uses (flask/elixir/pots etc) cost roughly 25% more then what a healer or dps char would pay, so i tend to use alot of time doing daylies on some of my alts for gold.


so dont expect us (tanks) to stop what we're doing (farming, daylies etc), because some lazy as* kid cba to gear up his char to have a decent gear lvl for heroic/kara or whatever.

[Dreador]

I believe this thread qualifies as one of the most epic I've ever seen. Every time I scroll to the bottom a new page is added.

I agree with pretty much 95% of the posts here. We worked our asses off in pugs and heroics for months on end to get the gear we have now (starting to clear BT). My job is certainly NOT to gear up the alts of greedy players, nor is it my job to gear up undergeared apps, in fact it's rare that we recruit them but their expectation is set from the start. I also lead 99% of my guild's raids, I learn the trash ahead of time and pound strats into people's heads. After the raids I'll farm if I have time, or answer whispers from potential apps and our own raiders (can I get in? can i get that epic gem out of the bank?). It's not that I don't want to help you or that I think you somehow don't deserve it, but I've got more important things to do that affect the main reason you joined the guild in the first place. Raids. On top of all this I work 40+ hours a week and maintain a gym membership which I attend 4 days a week (between work and getting home to start up the raids).


/fart GO PUG YOURSELF

[Bubalus]

Source: ceffo In our guild we have 5-8 geared tanks who can tank well yet will not run heroics/kz/za if their life depended on it and would rather spend time doing other stuff in game (aka circling shatt). And only show up for ssc/tk/gruuls etc This doesnt help some of our lesser geared dps/heals get BOJ gear and speed our progression up somewhat. We have put in guild note for tanks to "offer" to run dps/heals 1-2 heroics a day (ie the easy ones sp/mech etc) which take around an hour of their time. Well this hasnt really changed their veiws. Any suggestions?

I only tank 25 mans and the occasional kara for badges.
reason i don't tank 5mans is simple , i'm deadtired and sick of them , i ran all of them a idiotic number of times, they don't have any loot i need anyway.
I can't push myself to go in there, i can't stand most of them tbh.
Also i can't understand anymore how some people manage to srew up in 5mans , usually some dps-er, and wipe the party.
The only times i still tank 5mans is when i'm on my alt , can't find a tank and get so sick of it that I log my own tank to steamroll the place.
Za i don't do anymore too, i gotten so sick of the dragon hawk boss and people who keep dying there that i can't set myself to enjoy the place anymore as a tank , kitty i got less of a problem with it.

[Treenaa]

I posted back on the first page of this thread, and while I've been following it, I've avoided adding any more fuel to the fire until now. That being said, the accusations that people that post they don't want to tank outside raids are being elitist and ego driven is one I feel needs to be addressed.

This isn't the first time I've heard complaints that tanks are all full of ourselves and that we tank to feed our big ego's. I'll admit that there is some truth to that statement, but I assert that it applies to anyone that has ever considered themselves a serious raider regardless of the role they fill. Why else would you be a contributing member of a raiding group that is trying to push the limits of what they can achieve? Lets be honest with ourselves and look at what we are accomplishing and what we aren't.

We aren't paying the rent or putting food on the table by playing a game. Instead we are paying money to Blizzard for the service they provide us by making WoW available. I believe the majority of us aren't doing it as a serious attempt at dating. Just the opposite, I'm willing to bet that every guild has had at least one member that has undergone a divorce or had work/school problems related to the amount of time they have spent in this virtual world we all share. Since this game obviously isn't fulfilling any physical needs we have, what are we getting out of it?

If your a serious raider, then you are playing for your ego. You desire the feeling of accomplishment you get from being a part of a successful team. Regardless of the role you play in that complex boss kill, everyone wants that rush that comes from executing a strategy and seeing the digital monster laying dead at your digital feet. On the flip side, no one wants to wipe on the boss. If we want to be technical, we could say that being successful raiders allows us all to meet our Self-Actualization Needs, the highest level of Maslow's hierarchy of needs. The more complex and generally higher level of play required to succeed against a raid encounter provides a correspondingly higher level of personal fulfillment. How does all that apply to not tanking outside of raids? I'm glad you asked that.

As people have pointed out numerous times in this thread, 5-man tanking is not the same as raid tanking. I'm not going to say it is inherently worse or better, just different. Is it any wonder that this different experience equates to a different sense of fulfillment? I don't think so. Because it is a different accomplishment, with different rewards, it makes sense to take that one step further and acknowledge that it may not be providing some people with the self-actualization they get from raiding. If that's why they play the game in the first place then it is no wonder and completly understandable that they wouldn't want to do it. Implying that people shouldn't have a tank spec or should go play a dps or healer if they aren't going to do their "job" whenever it's demanded of them for a 5-man is just silly and unrealistic. Saying that it is "owed" just displays a self-centered sense of entitlement worse than any that can be attributed to an "elitist" tank.

[ceffo]

ORIGINAL POster here.

Well gee this thread GOT VERY LONG i must have hit a real nerve


Well basically what i should have put in the original POSt was that there were tanks in the guild who still had alot of badge farming to do in their spare time to gear up and could do with the upgrades. They can tank in terms of knowledge. But sometimes skill isnt going to stop your getting smashed if u dont have the gear in 25's.

Yet all they do is log in for 25mans and "hope" something will drop.

Im also burnt out as an officer of teh guild and will do a heroic a day to keep my reflexes in check. I took 2 weeks off and recently forgot my rotations on multi mobs

I DO undertsand where everyone is coming from BTW. Im in the same boat.

[Bonerot]

As a CL for warriors and doing the tank assignments in the 25's I have no expectation that any of our primary tanks do anything at all that makes the game less fun for them outside of the 25 man raids. Whatever makes them happy is good for me, you can find a new 5 man tank but getting a good raid tank who works well in a team isn't as easy especially if you aren't on the top of the raiding content.

I won't tank for alts. I would have no issues with tanking a speed clear of Kara with all the similarly geared raiders in my guild (not all of them no) but I'm not going to work my ass off while people work on alts.

Do I have all the gear I could possibly get via badges? No, not all of them but my gear is still well above the level of the guilds progression, if we wipe on a 25 man raid it's not going to be because of my gear.

So I guess be happy they log on to Tank the 25's if they are good players and make a rule that people aren't allowed to harass or guilt anyone in the guild into running them though instances. This is especially important for healers and tanks, don't burn them out doing trivial content and other people will make alts to fill in the low level gaps.

No idea if any of these apply to your guild but do remember that players are expendable resources, they have only so much to give before they get burnt out and stop playing and no one is asked more of then good tanks and healers.

[Joanadark]

Source: Ciderhelm That is probably the single most retarded statement that has been made in this thread. Excuse me while I clear the damage meters off my screen.

QFT


ROFL

[Fubar]

The burnout factor could probably be attributed to itemization imbalance in WoW as well. It is easier for some classes/professions to get requisite raid gear without having to run 5/10 mans over and over. Perhaps this is why they don't burn out as fast as tanks do.

As a 64 shadow priest alt, I have 3 pieces of the frozen shadow weave set, and 2 pieces of the spell strike set already crafted/gemmed/chanted and sitting in my bank for me to hit 70. The FSW set is so good people are holding them into black temple. My main hand, off hand, 1 trinket and neck will all come from badge rewards or SSO rep. I think in total it is only 250 badges at most. Boots will come from BG's just sitting there having a good time, a decent cloak can be crafted or badged. Arguably, I'd be ready to play in T5 content once I get the rep for the glyphs I need.

Now, look at the warrior itemization. HMech 22 times for the sun eater. Not seeing the Kings Defender until, I had the Mallet of Tides already. Hoping and praying that murmur wouldn't be a cheap bastard again (8x) and drop my of the Bold Shoulders, then again at Netherspite for epic shoulders. Even with the badge loot, many of us had enough badges to get a great belt, then saved even more badges for it's replacement in 2.4. I refuse to DE my Devilshark cape, just because of the epic ass pain of puggery it took for me to get it.

Any sort of crafting will give a tank 1-2 pieces of raid T4 = raid gear. Maybe a sword, maybe a chest, maybe a helm with resiliance. But it is nothing like the tailoring profession.

Really, running 5 or 10 mans now is a headache, I don't want to do it any longer. It's not fun or enriching for me any longer. The thought of running alts just makes me cringe.

[Lavache]

Source: ceffo Well basically what i should have put in the original POSt was that there were tanks in the guild who still had alot of badge farming to do in their spare time to gear up and could do with the upgrades. They can tank in terms of knowledge. But sometimes skill isnt going to stop your getting smashed if u dont have the gear in 25's. Yet all they do is log in for 25mans and "hope" something will drop.

hi OP

this is a much different problem than people only logging in for raids. your tanks should be jumping at the opportunities to get new gear outside of raids. i realize burnout happens to all of us from time to time. when the new badge gear hit i wasnt anywhere close to what i needed in terms of badges, but i slowly chugged away with an occasional heroic, a weekly ZA and the badges from 25man bosses. now i have everything i need and have 75 badges sitting in the bank accumulating dust. you should impress on them that getting the gear is important to their success as a tank and frequently the success of the encounter relies on the tank being able to stand up and not get splattered across the floor. if they continue to just hope gear drops, you need to find new tanks that will work a little for their gear. as you mention below - heroics are also good for keep up on reflexes and multi-mob pulling, both of which tend to deteriorate when you only raid tank. i sometimes have to force myself to tank heroics simply so i remember how to watch 5 mobs at once with limited CC and omen and keep an eye out for patrols - and more importantly how to keep my healer from getting killed should something get loose.

[Lavache]

Source: Fubar The burnout factor could probably be attributed to itemization imbalance in WoW as well. Any sort of crafting will give a tank 1-2 pieces of raid T4 = raid gear. Maybe a sword, maybe a chest, maybe a helm with resilience. But it is nothing like the tailoring profession.

ive been saying this for ages now...

if it makes you feel better fubar, i never saw the bold shoulders until after i had my T5 - and i ran that dump three or four times a week untill i could have been exalted twice over.

[Fubar]

Lav... I hear ya, painful. I actually saw the Devilshark on the second run into SV. The PuG pally healer needed for it saying that his primary role is a tank but respec'd for the SV run for the Devilshark. /facepalm.

The first Kings Def I saw was in our first chess event ever, I was out Dkp'd by our pally tank. /wrist

I think all of the warrior drops are cursed, except for shields (Gruuls and Kasrogol drops for us). I remember reading in these forums a totally badass warrior stuck with jade-skull into T5 content and that reaffirmed my belief. Cursed, or a game mechanic to keep tanks in the game.

If anyone told me I tank for my ego, or I should lay down my shield, I'd just shove them back in their high school locker after stealing their lunch money; once I hit Sun Eater and run number 22, HMechanar can KMA.

[Bodasafa]

Ill second that notion that tank drops are cursed.

I ran Shadow Labs probably 40 times i kid you not, till exualted twice over for those shoulders of the bold. Then 2 weeks later they were replaced with the ones from Netherspite in Kara.

The D3 Chest in ARC never droped and I farmed that place almost as much as Shadow Labs.

Now my new pain in the ass is the Jungle Stompers in ZA. Im up to about 35 runs. I have been going 1-2 times a week since January this year.

Sometimes with as much as tanks complain about the Sun Eater and other drops I listed above, plus some others I didnt, I wonder if that statment about blizz setting it up that way is true.

We endure the hardest part of this game as we are so heavely dependent on drops for our gear as we progress.

There are no craftables that are equivilant to what you can get in raids.

And speaking of craftables let me tell you how much of a joy it was to farm somthing like 48 primal fires for my frost set. That I dont even use for Hydross, I tank him in my nature set cause the other tanks dont have a maxed out one.

Sorry venting a bit lol....

So ya I do it for my ego..

[Girlie]

Source: Bodasafa Ill second that notion that tank drops are cursed. I ran Shadow Labs probably 40 times i kid you not, till exualted twice over for those shoulders of the bold. Then 2 weeks later they were replaced with the ones from Netherspite in Kara. The D3 Chest in ARC never droped and I farmed that place almost as much as Shadow Labs. Now my new pain in the ass is the Jungle Stompers in ZA. Im up to about 35 runs. I have been going 1-2 times a week since January this year. Sometimes with as much as tanks complain about the Sun Eater and other drops I listed above, plus some others I didnt, I wonder if that statment about blizz setting it up that way is true. We endure the hardest part of this game as we are so heavely dependent on drops for our gear as we progress. There are no craftables that are equivilant to what you can get in raids. And speaking of craftables let me tell you how much of a joy it was to farm somthing like 48 primal fires for my frost set. That I dont even use for Hydross, I tank him in my nature set cause the other tanks dont have a maxed out one. Sorry venting a bit lol.... So ya I do it for my ego..

you will never beat my 7 month epic quest for KD that I replaced the very next week with Mallet of Tide! (herm..I wonder why I won't do Kara anymore)

the boots..I just got this past week. I believe klor promised me them way back when. To be fair, I think for 2 months I didn't touch ZA, but what dropped when I went was Fury..and once I saw some cloth..I think..or it could have been another Fury and my sad mind wouldn't wrap around the idea.

[Kazeyonoma]

I still don't have KD =( Luckily I got a Cleaver after 1 year of using The Sun Eater O_o.

[clavarnway]

Source: Fubar As a 64 shadow priest alt, I have 3 pieces of the frozen shadow weave set... Boots will come from BG's just sitting there having a good time

There are FSW boots ;p

[Minya]

Source: Fubar Lav... I hear ya, painful. I actually saw the Devilshark on the second run into SV. The PuG pally healer needed for it saying that his primary role is a tank but respec'd for the SV run for the Devilshark. /facepalm. The first Kings Def I saw was in our first chess event ever, I was out Dkp'd by our pally tank. /wrist I think all of the warrior drops are cursed, except for shields (Gruuls and Kasrogol drops for us). I remember reading in these forums a totally badass warrior stuck with jade-skull into T5 content and that reaffirmed my belief. Cursed, or a game mechanic to keep tanks in the game. If anyone told me I tank for my ego, or I should lay down my shield, I'd just shove them back in their high school locker after stealing their lunch money; once I hit Sun Eater and run number 22, HMechanar can KMA.

devilshark cape? I thought blizz took it out of the game... I ran SV 3-4 times a week, for months. It never dropped. (when I had a'lars cloak and badge-cloak I saw it drop during an alt-run in SV..)

shields? did gruul for months to farm DST for our rogues. he dropped his shield exactly one time.
waitet 2 and a half month on kaz'rogals..

In the end, Illidan dropped his bullwark in our firstkill, yay!
and we lootet KD every ID for months, awesome :f

overall, I have to agree, that gearing up a tank is way harder than equippen an DD (specially mage/lock/spriest).