[Satorri]

Hmm, I've never had a use for RPM while tanking simply because I never have problems blowing through my RP between RS and FS in spare CDs. I never actually reach 100 RP to lose stuff to overflow. I use it some in a dps spec though without the added burn of RS procs and IBF uses.

[Nephelai]

@ Satorri

Generating the rp neccesary to actually fill that 130 usually involves the streaky nature of rp generation that occurs with Scent of Blood and Sanctuary (it also can happen when things in the fight mechanics such as tank cc disrupts the part of my rotation where the FS weaving occurs. Rp generation actually peaks when the streaks of rp generation occur, but the higher ceiling gives me more flexability in deciding when and how the surplus is used. I am not sure if I am explaining this well, but the phenomena is there. Before I specced into scent of blood, however, I never had a surplus to worry about. I am sure this is spec and playstyle dependant though, because going off of recount numbers compared to other DK's I run with I tend to be significantly on the extreme end when it comes to rp generation.

Oh, and I just started posting alot recently but I have been reading your stuff for about 6 months. I am now one of the top geared DK tanks on my server, but it wasn't too long ago that I was barely penetrating the posts on here and trying balance out the information presented here with the often less reliable tanking lore that circulates on the server. (Because of the latter I am still confronted by far less geared tanks who think I must have ebayed my account because I choose to pick up a yellow socket bonus with a def/stam gem when "omg you are way over the def cap." )

[Satorri]

Oh, no doubt, if you've seen the need, you've seen the need. I never managed to. =)


(also, you'd laugh how often people misspell my screen name)

[lyd]

I can relate to the amount of misinformation that tends to float around on servers. I ran into another DW'ing frost DK tank in a 25-man VoA pug the other day. Since I am a big fan of the style, I whispered him "props on DW'ing," and he began asking me questions. I discovered that the guy thought that 0 parries occur at 26 expertise, so he "had to get to 26 expertise or else he'll get parried and insta-gibbed." the guy literally thought that if you get parried as a tank, it's like an super DragonBall-Z instant death attack. He had no idea how the parry-haste rule worked, and couldn't comprehend the fact that his belief on the matter was self-evidently wrong, since he was tanking in a 25-man raid with only 24 expertise and mysteriously hadn't died yet...

[Nephelai]

Yeah, it seems common for those that do the research to help others, often phrasing advice in extreme generalities rather then explaining all of the details and assumptions that the "general rule" rests on. Because of this much of the server lore can be connected to theory crafting, but does not take into account the myriad details that causes those "general rules" to vary and at times become completely wrong.

[Edgewalker]

The general populace is incredibly idiotic with tanking.
The "general rules" exist because most people don't want to research their class, come up with their own specs, or formulate their own gear choices.
It's a useful tool to have a cookie cutter spec, say "Stamina is always right", and advise people that 26 expertise is a golden number.
Is it always true?
No.
Is it true enough that it works in the scenario I just described?
Yes.

I can see your argument for RP, but I just can't totally appreciate it's overall value. I think a tighter rotation or different rotation would be a better use of the points and higher threat, but to each his own.

@ Death Golem, the DnD Glyph and Morbidity and 3/5 Bladed Armor don't really make sense to me. Howling Blast and Blood Boil are more than enough for snap and sustained AoE threat generation, and missing 2/5 BA hurts you across the board for threat and damage.

[Splug]

Eh, most people will state the rule they follow when asked, or will present the rule when inquiring, and are quick to admit whether they understand the principle or not - and are happy to take advice as to when or why going against the rule would make sense. I find the hardest people to argue with are the ones who hold to that general rule or personal opinion as monolithic and self-evident fact, and feel that simply stating "that's the way it works" is a sufficient explanation for why they've chosen a specific strategy. Those who are willing to accept multiple correct possibilities, or at least break down and justify the logic building to a point, tend to learn as often as they teach. That makes the argument not only much more enjoyable, but more productive.

-Splug

[Edgewalker]

Source: Splug I find the hardest people to argue with are the ones who hold to a general rule or personal opinion as monolithic and self-evident fact. Those who are willing to accept multiple correct possibilities, or at least break down and justify the logic building to a point, tend to learn as often as they teach. That makes the argument not only much more enjoyable, but more productive. -Splug

Again, It isn't my personal philosophy, but how a LOT of people view the game. If someone asked me the best spec for a death knight I know I would give them a cookie cutter blood spec instead of breaking down the pros and cons of every talent and variations of the trees. The same can be said of most advice.
It's a good thing, not a bad one.

[Nephelai]

[QUOTE=Edgewalker;310966]
I can see your argument for RP, but I just can't totally appreciate it's overall value. I think a tighter rotation or different rotation would be a better use of the points and higher threat, but to each his own.
[QUOTE]

lol... as soon as read this I thought "I bet he tanks in blood with a nice clean 12 rune rotation." I dps with that kind of build so I agree that it is effective and clean. There is just something about tanking in frost with its dirty ~8 rune rotation variations, its proc dependant Howling Blasts, and its general RNG insanity, that I enjoy the hell out of.

[Boeten]

Source: Nephelai @ Satorri Generating the rp neccesary to actually fill that 130 usually involves the streaky nature of rp generation that occurs with Scent of Blood and Sanctuary (it also can happen when things in the fight mechanics such as tank cc disrupts the part of my rotation where the FS weaving occurs. Rp generation actually peaks when the streaks of rp generation occur, but the higher ceiling gives me more flexability in deciding when and how the surplus is used. I am not sure if I am explaining this well, but the phenomena is there. Before I specced into scent of blood, however, I never had a surplus to worry about. I am sure this is spec and playstyle dependant though, because going off of recount numbers compared to other DK's I run with I tend to be significantly on the extreme end when it comes to rp generation.

Blessing of Sanctuary does not give you RP since (some time) around 3.1. There is no change that I can remember in 3.2 that suddenly increases our RP generation.

You're probably mistaking the effect with Resto Druid's Revitalize or Disc Priest's Rapture, but those two talents have been there since as long as I can remember in WotlK.

Also, I disagree that RP overflow is the problem of a specific tree. In a way I agree with Edgewalker, if you find yourselves with surplus of RP, you could probably adjust the skills you cast instead of spending 2 talent points to handle it.

For example, pre-3.2 where FS can't be blocked/dodged/parried, FS was a great threat skill, probably only inferior to Rune Strike. In that scenario, preventing RP cap by delaying one of the strikes by one GCD (and FSing instead) could lead to possible threat increase. With the 1.5s grace period on our runes cooldown, such prioritizing should be managable.

In blood DPS, the 12 runes/Epidemic/14 GCD "rotation" feels very smooth provided you're at 26 expertise. However when tanking, few people are actually hitting 52 expertise, so the so called "rotation" will not go as smooth - thus adjustments on the fly is essential. The problem of RP overflow happens for every tree, not just Frost.

It's true RP mastery gives us the flexibility (which can lead to greater TPS), but it seems that many of us don't need that flexibility.

[KnThrak]

With Rune Strike macro'd to Scourge Strike and Blood Strike and Death Coil, I find that my tanking Unholy setup works by ignoring Runic Power until it goes >80. Then I use a Death Coil.

Yeah I know, really complex stuff going on right there. I bet it's actually poop for threat, but I have yet to be threatened by the DPS which don't die anyways with whatever tank, so it feels fairly ok.

[Alastrionia]

Just thought I'd chime in and see what others think of what I have done.

Went dual wield frost tank, followed the standard "cookie-cutter" spec.

For gear, which as has been stated before by others, needs high expertise and hit as well as your standard health/avoidance stats to make it viable and less clunky.

So what I did was farm reg ToC and H ToC till my eyes bled, lol.
However, every piece of tank gear that comes from that has the combination of stats needed. Obviously there are a few pieces missing that you have to fill in yourself (chest, bracers, 2nd ring, 2nd trinket, sigil, neck(the one from black knight has block value which does nothing for DK's) )

Link to my armory = The World of Warcraft Armory

Now you'll notice, as always, that the armory doesn't account for frost spec, so my health is a bit lower than what is in game. almost 29.9k unbuffed atm. And my dodge is a bit lower.

Also you'll notice my chest piece is obviously a filler till higher tier items come my way (either emblems or drops), but imo it's the best chest a DK can use to get started with (especially for dual wield frost) till you have other pieces that can make up for the expertise you're going to drop.

One thing I've noticed in H ToC, is that my damage intake is much more spiky than on my warrior or other tanks I've ran with. So I made an adjustment to my rotation when fighting each boss fight. I pop unbreakable armor, then DnD, and follow with BS and PS and FS. By then I'm able to start a normal rotation, but the initial threat is in place and the healer isn't stressed from the getgo on keeping me up.

Now I haven't raided yet, plan to, just haven't. So not sure how well that rotation will hold up in other content, but at least in those fights it does seem to help smooth out my damage intake which helps the group overall.

I'd love some feedback on both the gear I chose as well as my spec and rotation. And what's going to be the best way to keep my expertise up as the higher tier gear comes in (I know tier 9 has literally none)

Sorry for the wall of text, it's 6am and I've been at work all night, lol

[Edgewalker]

Source: Alastrionia Just thought I'd chime in and see what others think of what I have done. Went dual wield frost tank, followed the standard "cookie-cutter" spec. For gear, which as has been stated before by others, needs high expertise and hit as well as your standard health/avoidance stats to make it viable and less clunky. So what I did was farm reg ToC and H ToC till my eyes bled, lol. However, every piece of tank gear that comes from that has the combination of stats needed. Obviously there are a few pieces missing that you have to fill in yourself (chest, bracers, 2nd ring, 2nd trinket, sigil, neck(the one from black knight has block value which does nothing for DK's) ) Link to my armory = The World of Warcraft Armory Now you'll notice, as always, that the armory doesn't account for frost spec, so my health is a bit lower than what is in game. almost 29.9k unbuffed atm. And my dodge is a bit lower. Also you'll notice my chest piece is obviously a filler till higher tier items come my way (either emblems or drops), but imo it's the best chest a DK can use to get started with (especially for dual wield frost) till you have other pieces that can make up for the expertise you're going to drop. One thing I've noticed in H ToC, is that my damage intake is much more spiky than on my warrior or other tanks I've ran with. So I made an adjustment to my rotation when fighting each boss fight. I pop unbreakable armor, then DnD, and follow with BS and PS and FS. By then I'm able to start a normal rotation, but the initial threat is in place and the healer isn't stressed from the getgo on keeping me up. Now I haven't raided yet, plan to, just haven't. So not sure how well that rotation will hold up in other content, but at least in those fights it does seem to help smooth out my damage intake which helps the group overall. I'd love some feedback on both the gear I chose as well as my spec and rotation. And what's going to be the best way to keep my expertise up as the higher tier gear comes in (I know tier 9 has literally none) Sorry for the wall of text, it's 6am and I've been at work all night, lol

You can farm the resilience/stamina PvP to shoulder piece and it will account for a bit of defense. You should probably runeforge your offhand sword
Your spec looks fine, but as a bit of personal preference in 5 mans I'd prefer 0/2 Chill of the Grave with maxed black ice and hungering cold. Stamina armor patches are pretty cheap if you want fillers on some of the unenchanted gear also!

[GravityDK]

hiya, just wanted to let you know I did some testing on the 3.3 unholy spec which I put on my blog but also at EJ. It's basically a traditional deep unholy spec, I wanted to find highest threat unholy tank spec.

Secondly, the latest Kahorie sim now lets us simulate Scent of Blood accurately, and interestingly in unholy 3.3 it's not as good as alternative places for points (necrosis); it's a net loss.

[Vah]

With the Icecrown Radiance, Unholy goes back to the worst tanking spec imo as the uptime on Bone Armor has just been destroyed. I only see this spec being useful for a 3 hit burst scenario or add tanking at this point.

[GravityDK]

At the moment, I agree, Unholy's threat is also weakest. If Icecrown ends up having loads of magic damage, it might have a benefit.

[Vanthus]

Source: GravityDK At the moment, I agree, Unholy's threat is also weakest. If Icecrown ends up having loads of magic damage, it might have a benefit.

Blood will still have spell deflection for that too.

[Satorri]

I happen to disagree. I've had plenty of luck with turning out competitive threat with my Unholy spec as with my Blood or Frost specs.

Each tree has as much to offer as any other, they just all offer it differently.

[GravityDK]

In 3.22, Unholy does very good threat.
In 3.3, I'm predicting the other trees will to 10% more. That might not be a problem. Depends how much dps your team does relative to you.

However, combined with bone shield having lower effective uptime in Icecrown, unholy doesn't look hot at the moment. I still really like the spec though, so hope it's viable.

[Lilithium]

I suppose this a bit of ignorance on my behalf, but I noticed the two specs you posted for frost don't take epidemic, Satorri. Any reason for/against it?