[lyd]

in order to figure out how much avoidance you need to get 100% up-time, you just have to know the swing speed of the boss. but even the slowest swinging boss in the game, with no special attacks added in, would require an impossible level of avoidance, and it increases as you increase swing speed:

boneshield has 5 charges glyph'd, 1 minute cooldown.

2.4 swing speed = 25 attacks/minute
25-5 = 20 of these attacks need to be avoided per minute for 100% uptime
20/25 = 80%

2.0 swing speed = 30 attacks/minute
30-5 = 25 attacks must be avoided
25/30 = 83.33~%

1.5 swing speed = 40 attacks/minute
40-5 = 35 attacks must be avoided
35/40 = 87.5%


so don't worry so much about 100% uptime. it's literally impossible to achieve. you may get freak strings of avoidance where it occurs from time to time, but statistically speaking, that will be the rare exception, not the rule.

[Prunetracy]

There is no way to achieve 100% uptime on bone shield unless you have 100% avoidance.

Even at 99% avoidance there is a chance, however low, that the boss will hit you enough times to drop your shield.

The goal isn't 100% uptime anyway, what's particularly nice about bone shield is that it scales well with your avoidance. As you avoid more attacks, the uptime is greater, meaning that you take significantly less damage from the attacks that do land.

It is particularly useful for fights like Gormok where it can be up while you're tanking and recharge while the other tank has Gormok.

[Satorri]

It doesn't take 100% avoidance to have Bone Shield last its full CD, it just won't do it every time, and less often the lower your avoidance.

[Horaxe]

Satorri I just noticed the quote from the Nina Simone song in your sig, your even more my hero now.

Great work on the post as usual.

[mav1234]

Sun-err, Icewell Radiance is going to be fun.

Any math gurus want to parse some numbers on how this will effect tanks stepping into ICC? Losing 20% of my dodge is going to hurt... in both survivability and threat >.<

[Tayschren]

Thanks for the clarification - I prefer blood as of now, but I have had some guildies asking me to look at unholy. It has some raid bonuses due to AMZ, but I thought it was rather minimal. Got anub down to 14% tonight, we are just trying to squeeze out that little bit more.

[Satorri]

I'm psyched for Chill of the Throne, honestly.

Cutting avoidance way down will make it possible for them to start making a more pleasant tank/heal dynamic without having to redesign all of the gear from the entire expansion.

It may seem like a bad thing, but only if you make the mistake of assuming this is a standalone change and Icecrown Citadel will otherwise have everyone hitting like Anub.

[lyd]

I'm really not sure how I feel about it. from a purely mathematical perspective, avoidance hasn't lost it's effectiveness because it's a static reduction. but the fact that it's applied after DR makes me a little queasy to be honest. you're basically starting at -20% on the regression curve, but calculating the formula as if you're starting at 0%. that makes me a sad pandaren : \

[mav1234]

I like the theory behind why they are changing it so if that works I'll be happy. I am somewhat curious how it will impact our threat, though. I just kinda feel like this is a bit too much of a bandaid.

From my understanding, bosses are going to be generally hitting faster but for a bit less, so damage input will be similar over a period of time. Some of GC's other posts have made me think that we won't really see the outcome of these changes until we are actually all geared in ICC gear because until that point we will still be getting squished just as quickly. New tier of content though so I don't mind that too much.

[lyd]

Source: mav1234 I like the theory behind why they are changing it so if that works I'll be happy. I am somewhat curious how it will impact our threat, though. I just kinda feel like this is a bit too much of a bandaid. From my understanding, bosses are going to be generally hitting faster but for a bit less, so damage input will be similar over a period of time. Some of GC's other posts have made me think that we won't really see the outcome of these changes until we are actually all geared in ICC gear because until that point we will still be getting squished just as quickly. New tier of content though so I don't mind that too much.

i actually didn't even think of this. DK threat is going to take a significant hit from this. 20% less avoidance = 20% less Runestrike procs, subject to variability depending on swing speed and frequency of special attacks.

[Nephelai]

Source: lyd i actually didn't even think of this. DK threat is going to take a significant hit from this. 20% less avoidance = 20% less Runestrike procs, subject to variability depending on swing speed and frequency of special attacks.

You kind of summed up the point I am about to make, but the idea seems to be that they are going to speed up the boss attack timer while lowering the damage per swing. If the boss swings on a 1.5 or 1 second timer, I don't think that we loose any RS procs when compared to a boss outside of Icecrown swinging on a 2 second timer.

[lyd]

Source: Nephelai You kind of summed up the point I am about to make, but the idea seems to be that they are going to speed up the boss attack timer while lowering the damage per swing. If the boss swings on a 1.5 or 1 second timer, I don't think that we loose any RS procs when compared to a boss outside of Icecrown swinging on a 2 second timer.

if that's the case, then it shouldn't be as bad. I still think we're going to lose threat on this deal. we'll have to see how it plays out.

[Nephelai]

Uhhhh.. Is it just me or is the second Frost(2H) spec in the OP... kind of sort of... not the correct link?

[Nephelai]

While pointing out the bad link I figured I would throw out a 2H Frost spec I love.

The World of Warcraft Armory

I have been back and forth on the 3/3 Acclimation thing, but it seems to me that most of the arguments against it are as outdated as Naxx. Just going off recount incoming damage reports the mitigation it is providing on fights like Flame Watcher, Twin Valkyries and even Anub is pretty awsome. On Anub 25 normal last week, due to the fact that I ran off and pulled Anub on a resurface with a scarab aggro'd on me, and due to it taking a little too long for said scarab to be dealt with... I had 25 stacks when it was all said and done... and my healer kept me alive long enough for the stacks to drop off (watch my wording... long enough.. eventually we wiped for other reasons). When I checked inc. damage for the fight I had resisted almost 75 percent of incoming nature damage... but yeah, acclimation is situational at best. lol

[lyd]

Source: Nephelai While pointing out the bad link I figured I would throw out a 2H Frost spec I love. The World of Warcraft Armory I have been back and forth on the 3/3 Acclimation thing, but it seems to me that most of the arguments against it are as outdated as Naxx. Just going off recount incoming damage reports the mitigation it is providing on fights like Flame Watcher, Twin Valkyries and even Anub is pretty awsome. On Anub 25 normal last week, due to the fact that I ran off and pulled Anub on a resurface with a scarab aggro'd on me, and due to it taking a little too long for said scarab to be dealt with... I had 25 stacks when it was all said and done... and my healer kept me alive long enough for the stacks to drop off (watch my wording... long enough.. eventually we wiped for other reasons). When I checked inc. damage for the fight I had resisted almost 75 percent of incoming nature damage... but yeah, acclimation is situational at best. lol

you made all the right points about acclimation. it is situationally oriented to fights where you are taking rapid bursts of magic damage. it is not all that effective against, say, a fusion punch. it's one of those talents that will forever have frost tanks hemming and hawing. not a bad talent; you just have to remember that in some fights it's great, and in other fights it's pretty much wasted.

[GravityDK]

If we had more free points in a Frost spec, there would be no decision about it; you'd take acclimation. The catch is there's some trade-off, because Frost is just so packed-full already.

[Nephelai]

Yeah I have tossed that trade off back in forth through a fortune in respecs. I guess my overall point is that I have seen certain benefits in at least 3 of the 6 real bossfights in the 3.2 era. It probably also helps on faction champs, but from the persepective of a tank, thats not so much a boss fight as it is a chaotic cluster f*$ck (ok, I admit it, I enjoy it). It may be helpful on OT duty on Jarraxus to, but I usally MT that fight because I am interrupt happy, so I haven't taken a close look at the numbers for that one. I think if it continues in Icecrown to be useful in as high a percentage of fights as it is in 3.2 content, then I will continue to keep it around (though I have been thinking heavily of going dw when the new rune comes out, so that will make the decision to keep it tough again).

[Edgewalker]

Source: Nephelai While pointing out the bad link I figured I would throw out a 2H Frost spec I love. The World of Warcraft Armory I have been back and forth on the 3/3 Acclimation thing, but it seems to me that most of the arguments against it are as outdated as Naxx. Just going off recount incoming damage reports the mitigation it is providing on fights like Flame Watcher, Twin Valkyries and even Anub is pretty awsome. On Anub 25 normal last week, due to the fact that I ran off and pulled Anub on a resurface with a scarab aggro'd on me, and due to it taking a little too long for said scarab to be dealt with... I had 25 stacks when it was all said and done... and my healer kept me alive long enough for the stacks to drop off (watch my wording... long enough.. eventually we wiped for other reasons). When I checked inc. damage for the fight I had resisted almost 75 percent of incoming nature damage... but yeah, acclimation is situational at best. lol

I can't for the life of me understand the RP Mastery.

[Nephelai]

Source: Edgewalker I can't for the life of me understand the RP Mastery.

It was a relatively recent change (around the start of 3.2). I picked it up when I altered the spec to increase rp generation. Its allows me to weave FS and OB's in the back half of my rotation so that I never loose a gcd (weaving seems to be the only way to do this), while at the same time allways having enough extra rp to get the rune strike procs/ams/ibf/interrupts when needed. Before I added rp mastery I was often rp starved during the back end of the rotation when the weaving starts. A free HB proc usually saved enough rp when it happened to make 100 sufficient, but those can't be counted on, and I didn't like simply cutting FS out of interrupt fights, or using a couple of moves to get IBF off, which was what I was doing before the change.

[Death Golem]

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

this is my frost spec, it's good for AoE threat and single target..

The World of Warcraft Armory