[Edgewalker]

I think you are probably running a bad blood spec or bad supporting gear if the threat values are similar.

[Hib]

Some food for thought.

Current Armory Link: The World of Warcraft Armory

Is the three points in Necrosis better then putting the three points in Ravenous Dead for the extra 3% strength?

I tested the dps out and both were the same.

Also anyone know if there is a mod that will show you threat on a test dummy?

[derangedhermit]

As someone who just dinged 80 on his DK and wants to tank in the future, this was an awesome time to have this thread posted Thanks a lot

The 2nd Frost 2-H spec is a Blood pec. Guessing it's a mistaken link, right?

[GravityDK]

I can confirm that even in theory (using Kahorie's sim), the no-reaping Unholy spec is very good threat. Some posters on EJ also tested it when this new spec was first being discussed a few weeks ago.

[Satorri]

Source: Edgewalker I think you are probably running a bad blood spec or bad supporting gear if the threat values are similar.

My Unholy spec is carefully designed and pretty heavily balanced for threat, while my Blood spec is farther in the direction of the survival end of the scale with a lot of the self-heals taken. That said, Unholy is pretty easy to build for threat as there are only 5 points in total that really are survival talents anyway.

Your arrogance and assumed superiority doesn't go unappreciated though.

[lyd]

Source: Satorri My Unholy spec is carefully designed and pretty heavily balanced for threat, while my Blood spec is farther in the direction of the survival end of the scale with a lot of the self-heals taken. That said, Unholy is pretty easy to build for threat as there are only 5 points in total that really are survival talents anyway. Your arrogance and assumed superiority doesn't go unappreciated though.

I sense a Tekken arcade duel in the works.

[Edgewalker]

Edited per Krenian's advice.
My point was that it is simply impossible to compare Blood / Unholy threat scaling as it currently exists except in theoretical situations (maybe in Icecrown). If you want maximum single target threat for progression or heavy DPS timers, you will still be using a threat-based blood spec. Unholy is *capable* now, especially with a reapingless spec (something I tested and used a while back, I never found reaping to be totally helpful with rotations), but nothing has changed to push it to some sort of miraculous heights. Bone Shield is still overshadowed by the passives and flexibility of Frost as well in my opinion.

Also I use this spec - Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft , and keep a ghoul out like a permanent giant rune tap. I only use the spec for multiple add fights so I try to have wandering plague.

[Satorri]

I didn't mean to imply Unholy is somehow magically amazing now. I simply said that my Unholy spec outperforms my Blood spec for single target threat.

My, admittedly edged, response was to your insistence that I must be doing something wrong with Blood if my Unholy spec could out-threat it.

[Krenian]

You guys are arguing potential semantics. Here's why:

Honestly, it's how comfortable one feels with a spec. Edge can feel more comfortable with Blood, and by all rights, Blood, with all math calculations and whatnot, should be the highest threat out of all three due to skills and the math pushing it that way.

Satorri, you may well be more comfortable with Unholy and as such, can pull off more hate through Unholy tanking than your Blood tank.

It really is a question of comfort and using every little trick at your disposal to make it work. In all theoretical work though, Unholy and Blood are either very close or Blood should SLIGHTLY edge out Unholy. And that's just theorycraft and maths supporting my argument and the argument of most theorycrafters out there.

[Kanzer]

Source: Krenian You guys are arguing potential semantics. Here's why: Honestly, it's how comfortable one feels with a spec. Edge can feel more comfortable with Blood, and by all rights, Blood, with all math calculations and whatnot, should be the highest threat out of all three due to skills and the math pushing it that way. Satorri, you may well be more comfortable with Unholy and as such, can pull off more hate through Unholy tanking than your Blood tank. It really is a question of comfort and using every little trick at your disposal to make it work. In all theoretical work though, Unholy and Blood are either very close or Blood should SLIGHTLY edge out Unholy. And that's just theorycraft and maths supporting my argument and the argument of most theorycrafters out there.

Good points. I personally find blood to dish our alot more single target threat than Unholy, but I also simply don't like unholy in all the time i've tested it and messed with it, I only use it for DPSing heroic anub.

So yes, while I think Blood does more threat than unholy, Krenian brings up some good points.

[Sterbefall]

Source: Satorri Ha, I just questioned you.

/clap ?

That said, I don't think it's fair to generalize about Blood vs Unholy as a whole, the specific specs will make a bigger difference. My Uholy spec is pretty heavily focused on a specific concept that appears to work very well, especially on single target threat.

I've found it valid based on personal experience (not really a good argument at all) and based on math (you can do it mathless if you consider the idea that UH DPS is balanced around having a ghoul, whereas blood is balanced around not, much like being a tank).

My question of method is two-fold, if you actually want to make your Unholy spec work its best: 1.) What is your Unholy Build, what is it built around for threat (what moves do you buff best, ScS spam build?)?

Yes, I buffed SS most because it's the main nuke.

2.) What is your move priority (rotation if you use one)?

Unpopular at the time, but I actually always rocked a no-Reaping GoD based rotation.

If you're interested in figuring out where your Unholy build is lacking, I can help, otherwise, it is suffice to say you personally perform better with your blood build, not make a sweeping statement about the capacity of Unholy.

I'm not saying it out of spite. I loved Unholy to death but I found its threat lacking for single target. Subsequently after browsing many forums, I found that sentiment to be common (many UH tanks feeling they needed to switch to Blood to stay competitive with ST threat and stay ahead of I-win-at-omen warlocks).

All that said, I agree with Krenian. I didn't mean to start such an off-topic firestorm in this topic. I was just making a quick side note that I'd likely be switching back to UH in 3.3 so my current Blood spec would likely be short lived.

[Satorri]

I am actually more comfortable with Blood, that's what I've been playing for the last (how long has it been since 3.1?) months.

I'm not trying to claim that one is always better than the other, only trying to corral the comments saying "Blood is better threat than Unholy."

Frankly, any theorycrafting that references the many potential methods of spec'ing with a single blanket statement, i.e. "Blood" or "Unholy" is already suspect in my book. The spec and style is only as strong as the player, and creative players have discovered more effective ways to do things than had been previously modeled.

What I'm interested in here, in this thread especially (I don't think it's the wrong place Sterb), is that rather than trying to tell people "if you go Blood you'll do more single target threat," is to give people the resources to spec and play their Death Knight well.

This is why I respond to "Unholy has weak single target threat, so I switched to Blood," with the fact that I have an Unholy setup that outperforms my Blood spec for single target threat. Not that Unholy will always pass Blood, nor that Blood will only be passed if you play it poorly. Like I said, my specs are designed to different ends of the Survival vs Threat balance.

So, really, you say it exactly right, Kren. It's semantics. Generalization is unhelpful when it tells people who came here to learn A > B, period.

[Kiertiana]

OK, So I'm going to try the Unholy spec (I love tanking in Unholy) and I'm also going to try the second DW frost spec. I've been wanting to try DW tanking. Do you recommend any glyphs for these two specs? I've never unholy tanked w/o the ghoul though, so that's going to be new for me. I have some threat problems with my current spec so I'm wanting to try something new. I especially have problems keeping my threat when my OT is a pally. I actually attempted to pull off him when we were tanking Patchwerk in Naxx 10... my threat couldn't touch his. I used every taunt I have. Plus, more often than not it's my bf's hunter, the mage, or lock in raid that are pulling off me with their burst damage. So I definitely want to try something new that might work better. Especially since most of the time, I'm MT. Also, with DW you don't get the def rating +25 because SSG can only be used on 2h weapons. What can be done to make up for this huge drop in def rating? I go from 543 down to 518 w/o SSG. Anyone who can give me some good DW tips, I'd really appreciate it.

[Nosoks]

I was just wondering if someone could post rotations for frost (or all 3) and include both Single target and AoE.

Thanks!

[Satorri]

Kiertiana, thank for the inspiration, reading your post I figured out how I want to present glyphs! (Something I was admittedly holding off on to figure out the best, most neutral format). Patchwerk is a tricky fight to gauge threat on as Patch actually gives threat to his tanks, and I'm not 100% sure it's consistent across all the tanks. Gear can be a serious factor.

Nosoks, I'm philosophically opposed to DK tanks using rotations, I think it impairs us as tanks to try and follow a set sequence. Instead I advocate learning your abilities and understanding which move is appropriate at what time. That said, if people think it's valuable to do so, I will post rotations.

[lyd]

I think rotations are something to strive for, but not to expect. I cannot remember the last time that I was able to maintain a perfect rotation. the residual variables at play conspire to prevent you from really ever being able to time it perfectly enough to pull it off consistently. So basically you just do your best to come closest to achieving it, and in doing so, maximize your output.

When people ask me, I usually tell them the "ideal" rotation, and then tell them to prioritize abilities. in my case, as DW frost, prioritizing basically means:

1. check diseases
2. if diseases are not up, IT > PS
3. if diseases are up, OB (follow with HB if rime procs)
4. if OB is on cooldown, BS BS (or in my case, BS PE to refresh diseases, which allows me to skip #2 most of the time)
5. if blood runes are on cooldown, FS, unless you are below 60 RP (52 if you are using glyph'd FS, which I do), so that you don't miss a Runestrike accidentally.

I think Blood has the advantage of having a simpler rotation, although the priority checks are similar. you still have to check diseases and refresh them, and you still have to leave room for Runestrikes on your RP bar when spamming deathcoil. I also try to keep an eye on my blade barrier buff as well, although it is rare that it ever falls off if i'm executing correctly.

[Tayschren]

I love tanking in blood, but it was recently brought to my attention that Unholy might benefit the raid, and myself, due to magic suppression, to try Unholy.

In order to keep Bone Shield up 100% what does my base avoidance have to be at? I am currently running 59.77% avoid, 27995 armor, and a tad over 42k HP. I love blood, I am comfortable with it, but would switching give me/the raid more survivability?

Do you have to call out for healing CDs due to your own CDs overlapping?

Just some questions, many thanks.

[Edgewalker]

Source: Tayschren I love tanking in blood, but it was recently brought to my attention that Unholy might benefit the raid, and myself, due to magic suppression, to try Unholy. In order to keep Bone Shield up 100% what does my base avoidance have to be at? I am currently running 59.77% avoid, 27995 armor, and a tad over 42k HP. I love blood, I am comfortable with it, but would switching give me/the raid more survivability? Do you have to call out for healing CDs due to your own CDs overlapping? Just some questions, many thanks.

Why would you switch to unholy for magic supp?
Please explain.

[Tayschren]

Source: Edgewalker Why would you switch to unholy for magic supp? Please explain.

The extra CD for Freezing Slash, and I was told p3's Leech was magic damage. Is this incorrect?

[Satorri]

Well, two points of clarity, Taychren:

1.) AMZ will absorb some ticks, though it'll disappear quite quickly. I don't know if that's the sole reason to switch to Unholy. If you use it smartly it can eat a LOT on the raid and less on you (10k + double your AP, if it's eating for the group it'll last a while as they take small ticks, but for you, with being topped off, it'll go very quickly and less chance for simultaneous ticks artificially inflating the absorb value). If you have Spell Deflection you probably won't get much larger value out of Magic Suppression, though it will be a more constant amount and it will apply to the leach.

2.) You will never see 100% uptime of Bone Shield all the time, the duration will vary situation to situation as the random cadence of hits against the bone cooldown. I can tell you that at around 67% avoidance I sometimes have it last the full minute, and it rarely lasts less than 30 seconds.