Pally/Pally vs Pally/War, opinions needed

Tygara · #1 10-11-2009, 09:35 PM

Evening guys, and thanks for taking the time to read my question to the tankspot community. A little background on my guild, since I think it will impact your suggestions some. I am in a very very small guild that runs 10 mans exclusively. Current content consists of Ulduar, haven't really attempted hard modes yet, and ToC 10 regular. Its not pushing brand new content, yet its also not Naxx level stuff either. At this moment, my main is a prot specced Paladin, as is the other tank in guild, both around the same gear level. My question to you all is... Would it be worth it to gear out my warrior in a Prot set for the extra raid buffs I would bring? We currently don't run with any DPS warriors or rogues, so there is no armor pen. We dont run with any druids, so there is no demo shout/roar, and we don't run with any warlocks, so there is no +HP buff.

Tygara · #2 10-11-2009, 09:36 PM

I had paragraphs in there to space that out and make it not look like a giant wall of text but they didn't seem to go through, so I apologize for that.

**Optimoos** · #3 10-11-2009, 09:42 PM

I guess the biggest question is, do you feel your raid is suffering because of the lack of those buffs?

Are you melee heavy? How much of your group is going to benefit from sunders?

You indicate you're not pushing hard modes yet, so I'm not sure demo shout or commanding shout are going to be game savers.

Basically, I look at this as effort versus reward. Are you wanting to push into hard modes? How good are your healers and DPS? Can they compensate for lack of the other buffs?

Synergy is great and all, and while gearing a tank to do normal Uld10 or ToC10 may not be a huge issue, if you're wanting to push into hard modes it might take longer to see some of those more unique drops on your warrior such that you're as kitted out as your Pally.

Edit: Then again, if you're bored, Warrior all the way

Feanorr · #4 10-12-2009, 03:18 AM

Source: Optimoos
Are you melee heavy? How much of your group is going to benefit from sunders?

This: if your DPS are mainly melee it may worth it, if not, I dont think so.

Takethecake · #5 10-12-2009, 06:31 AM

Like said... it mainly depends on if you have a ton of melee dps. It wouldn't hurt anything to have a better variety of classes in your 10 man either way.

On a side note... you have 2 paladins but neither of you has vindication?

bashef · #6 10-12-2009, 08:42 AM

On a side note... you have 2 paladins but neither of you has vindication?

This. Paladin (tanks) have the most reliable and easily applied demo-shout type effect in game at the moment.

As for switching to a warrior - as others have said it really depends on the usual raid makeup. Are there other Paladins in the raid besides the two tanks? A second blessing is a huge buff (you don't have a warrior for battle shout, and I don't know about a shaman for mana spring). The utility of warrior tank compared to a paladin is almost exclusively movement based, but this just isn't game breaking for most fights. Do you have a lock for the health buff? If not you can also add commanding shout to the list of things that the warrior will bring to the raid.

Without wishing to sound too dismissive, however, if you're not pushing progression, micromanaging raid balance isn't all that important. To that end I'd advocate just playing whatever you prefer

**Mert** · #7 10-12-2009, 09:54 AM

How many other Paladins are you running with? Don't forget that with two Paladins you can run Demo Shout (2/2 Vindication) as mentioned above and one of you could spec into Improved Blessing of Might to be the equivalent of Improved Battle Shout. If you have a Warlock, his Imp could be used as a weaker version of Commanding Shout.

A Shaman's Mana Stream is the same as Blessing of Wisdom and if it really comes to it, a Leatherworker can use the Drums of Forgotten Kings to give a slightly weaker but still great version of Blessing of Kings. A Scribe can use the new scroll to give a PW:F equivalent if you're short of a Priest... and so on.

Take your strongest characters - a Prot Warrior certainly brings a lot to the table, but you'd do better by your guild in the long run gearing one tank exclusively rather than spreading your upgrades across two different tanks. But yeah seriously, one of you spec into Vindication at least (I'd say both of you should, to be honest).

Tygara · #8 10-12-2009, 10:35 AM

Yea for some reason mentally, Vindication didn't register in my head as a demo shout equiv so I didnt list it. Lately we have been running with 2 resto shamans, a holy pally, and a ret pally on top of our 2 prot pallys. We also run with a DPS DK, an Enh shammy, and a hunter that would benefit from the sunder armor reduc

Aggathon · #9 10-12-2009, 01:39 PM

If you've got 4 pallies already I'd say gearing out your warrior wouldn't be a terrible thing.

Griff · #10 10-12-2009, 03:36 PM

Why not bring your warrior - Protadin/warrior combos are the best tanking team imho - they compliment each other very effectively.

Warriors they bring different buffs to the table (vigilance, demo/commanding shout, intervene and sunder) to name a few.

They also have strengths in tanking that protadins just don't have (yet, patch inbound) such as very high mobility (with warbringer,) and solid survival cooldowns along with a myriad of interrupts.

Whiteråven · #11 10-12-2009, 04:33 PM

I'd have to disagree with mobility and survivability on pally tanks compared to warriors. First pallies can get pursuit of justice and move around faster and kite mobs faster than warriors. They don't need chase after mobs in order to taunt them and can just sit there. Plus, compared to what i've seen my paladin lives longer than warriors I've seen out there. I think it's simply the fact that warriors cant heal themselves :P

**Alent** · #12 10-12-2009, 04:40 PM

Source: Whiteråven
I think it's simply the fact that warriors cant heal themselves :P

If you're casting heals while tanking, you're doing it wrong.

Quenchiest · #13 10-12-2009, 05:33 PM

Source: Whiteråven
I'd have to disagree with mobility and survivability on pally tanks compared to warriors. First pallies can get pursuit of justice and move around faster and kite mobs faster than warriors. They don't need chase after mobs in order to taunt them and can just sit there. Plus, compared to what i've seen my paladin lives longer than warriors I've seen out there. I think it's simply the fact that warriors cant heal themselves :P

Intervene alone gives a warrior a lot of mobility advantages over the other tanking classes. The problem is not many warriors even think about it when it comes to kiting or moving across the battle field.

If I need to get across the screen in a hurry I can intervene a party member, then charge the add/mob I'm trying to get to. Also, taunt has a 30yd range, so I don't know where this chasing mobs around to be able to taunt thing comes from. =P

**Eoika** · #14 10-12-2009, 05:44 PM

I think the problem with intervening to a rough destination is that someone would need to be standing in that general area. Most of the time (in my situations) there is no one ther to intervene to so I'm at a loss.

I generally use Intervene for its threat drop then mobility...

**Synapse** · #15 10-14-2009, 08:10 AM

Source: Tygara
Evening guys, and thanks for taking the time to read my question to the tankspot community. A little background on my guild, since I think it will impact your suggestions some. I am in a very very small guild that runs 10 mans exclusively. Current content consists of Ulduar, haven't really attempted hard modes yet, and ToC 10 regular. Its not pushing brand new content, yet its also not Naxx level stuff either. At this moment, my main is a prot specced Paladin, as is the other tank in guild, both around the same gear level. My question to you all is... Would it be worth it to gear out my warrior in a Prot set for the extra raid buffs I would bring? We currently don't run with any DPS warriors or rogues, so there is no armor pen. We dont run with any druids, so there is no demo shout/roar, and we don't run with any warlocks, so there is no +HP buff.

There are a few things to consider
1) Paladins can provide their own improved demoralizing shout, it's passive and it has just about the best uptime possible: Vindication
2) Armor Penetration can be given through two different things: Small ones from warlocks/druids and big ones from warriors/rogues/hunters.Your raid make-up seem very strange, as there's no warriors, no rogues, no druids and no warlocks, but if that's the case, unless you're running with all dps being ret pallies and DKs, I don't see arp as a big necessity there.

Changing a pally with a warrior really comes down just to "Do we want an extra Blessing/Hand CD or do we want Sundering/Interrupts?". Most of the warrior raid-utility is already given by a bunch of other classes, so it's gonna be more about preference, I think.

Travelsize · #16 10-16-2009, 03:23 PM

With that raid makeup? Go run a bear druid if you're looking to min-max!

You're running with 4 pallys, 3 shammys (one enhance), a hunter, a dps dk, and another unmentioned class.

Not only do your melee and tanks get a 5% crit bonus, but you'll be able to pick up all the the spell cloth and leather for healing and boomkin offsets since it sounds like nobody's using them. With 3 shamans running around you don't need more interrupts, and that's the other major thing a prot warrior brings to the table: lots and lots of stuns and interrupts.

If bear's not an option, warrior would still be nice, since it sounds like a good chunk of your dps would be using at least some of the armor reduction. However, if min-maxing isn't your goal, bring what you want. It's worth noting that there are certain boss fights where warriors absolutely shine as trash tanks due to shockwave (Kolo, Freya, Jaraxxus) and charge/intervene/intercept (Jaraxxus infernals again, Ignis constructs, Anub phase 1). On those fights I would say warriors most certainly have a mobility advantage over paladins (speaking as the Warrior in a War/Pally tanking combo).