[Edgewalker]

Source: Kazeyonoma Dead horse being beaten here maybe?

There isn't a horse anymore.
It's a pile of flesh that used to be a horse that is being stretched and beaten all over the world, drug through car axles... people have taken bits of this horse to space and thrown it into the sun.
The horse has been abused to the point where it's individual atoms are somewhere in a 8 mile long centrifuge, spinning and colliding and exploding.

[Aggathon]

Source: Edgewalker What aboid Anub'arak leads you to think avoidance is remotely worthwhile? Armor has it's place, but Avoidance/Armor are in different boats. Regardless, the 10% Hp effect of leeching swarm doesn't change the gearing profile for the MT. Slash/Melee/Swarm still has a strict minimal you must meet. Tanks can die on Jaraxxus adds, you can die during Twin Spikes without CD's, you can die during Worms, Gormokk, Icehowl... sure the chance isn't great, but why not gear optimally 100% of the time? I'm a DK, not a warrior, and you still naturally end up with 65+% avoidance with no extraneous avoidance gear and double stamina trinkets. I don't know what to say about your experience on Algalon. But there is a lot of magical damage involved, and I can't see an argument for anything but stamina/armor there either, Glyph of Indom. has it's place on that fight for sure though. Even in your listed example, the difference between 50K and 55K at 15K a hit is a rejuv tick saving you or letting you die... not really the best argument winner. Edit - NR for Steelbreaker? Really?

Will you be my friend? <3

[felhoof]

Absolutely NO ONE was advocating tanking this fight with NR. What you did is had a pro dispeller so the fusion punch ticks did zero damage and you used a cooldown for when he punched. We literally ran rotating cooldowns so that for the last 2 rotations a tank always had a cooldown running on them and the 2nd rotation our tank (DK) used his personal cooldowns and our 1st tank still used a cooldown for fusion punch.

I'm not talking about the Fusion punch ticks; I'm talking about Fusion Punch. It's entirely nature damage, and resisting 20-30% of the biggest burst of damage is certainly not bad. I know a couple of tanks who did this successfully. (I don't have the achievement, in case you're wondering, because I wasn't raiding then as a tank. I did do a few attempts though.) And yes, you can use a CD - but isn't it better to maximize EH? This was especially useful for druids, who have a weak but more frequent CD.

Maybe it's a druid thing. I don't know. Druids can use resistance gear more easily, and they tend to be LWs when others aren't.

Also: I've been hit by steelbreaker for 47k melee, don't tell me the magic part of that fight is the reason you should go with NR... that's just innane.

It's one of the burstier parts, and that 47k melee hit wasn't going to kill you; it was the 47k hit + a static tick that would. And NR would help with the latter. Heck, armor would be better there; if you're taking 47k melee hits you're taking hits that are around 150k pre-armor, which means that each 1% armor reduction cuts that attack by 1500 damage. That's a lot better per itemization point than stamina is for the most part in terms of EH.

This fight was about RAW EHP. The ONLY things that are EHP (which is for physical fights, you can talk differently about magical fights, but then you're getting nit picky, and even then you just go for stam over armor: see Hodir, that fight absolutely did not require Frost Resist, or hell even 3D sarth back in January you had feral druids in frost resist because it had so much STAM) are Stam, and Armor. Everything else that mitigates physical damage is reliant upon RNG.

You had ferals in fire resist too. That's how I beat him, and it was a lot less RNG dependent than wearing max stam and hoping that external CDs were ready to go and a bad wave didn't cause your CD guy to go out of range.

The main benefit some avoidance has on Anub'arak is that it's helpful when P3 hits to take fewer hits while the healers are stressed out. It reduces HPS requirements, and that's useful. The secondary benefit is that it's not health, which means it's not doing more damage to you and it's not healing him more. Like I said, the biggest wins are going to come from armor and NR, not avoidance - but if you had a choice between for example a high stam piece and a high avoidance piece, it's not insane to pick the latter over the former assuming you hit the slash/leech/melee threshold acceptably.

As to tanks dying on anything other than Gormok/Anub MT/Anub OT, the only other situation I've ever seen a tank die is on Icehowl enrage. It's really hard for me to imagine a tank dying at any other point. Jaraxxus adds hit for next to nothing, twin dual wielding is at best a CD (and more often than not I just ignore it), worms don't hit particularly hard either. None of these stress the tank significantly enough to matter. And health isn't optimal for all of these situations either.

I don't know what to say about your experience on Algalon. But there is a lot of magical damage involved, and I can't see an argument for anything but stamina/armor there either, Glyph of Indom. has it's place on that fight for sure though.

Again, maybe it's a druid thing. With the nerf to druid avoidance druids are about 10% behind other tanks. From our logs, my damage intake on Algalon was identical to the other tank despite taking 20% less damage per hit (even with block factored in) than any other tank, and the big reason was simply avoidance. With Algalon, because he hits so often, you start getting into the realm of statistical likelihood instead of weird streaks and worst-case scenarios. The magical damage was inconsequential compared; 5k cosmic smashes, maybe the random constellation. And we had spriests soaking, so we could use all CDs on him and not the big bang.

In any case, I guess we're arguing past each other. I'm stating that avoidance isn't key for a lot of fights (really, Algalon, Anub adds and Vezax are the only ones that come to mind), but EH comes in a lot of forms, and pure stamina is not always optimal and is in some cases even detrimental relative to other choices. I'd agree that very rarely should you gear for avoidance specifically. But I'd disagree that the only other choice is stamina.

[Kazeyonoma]

Source: edgewalker there isn't a horse anymore. It's a pile of flesh that used to be a horse that is being stretched and beaten all over the world, drug through car axles... People have taken bits of this horse to space and thrown it into the sun. The horse has been abused to the point where it's individual atoms are somewhere in a 8 mile long centrifuge, spinning and colliding and exploding.

HADRON COLLIDER?! WORLD IS GONNA ENDDDDDDDDDD nuuuuuuuuuuuu

[Aggathon]

Source: felhoof I'm not talking about the Fusion punch ticks; I'm talking about Fusion Punch. It's entirely nature damage, and resisting 20-30% of the biggest burst of damage is certainly not bad. I know a couple of tanks who did this successfully. (I don't have the achievement, in case you're wondering, because I wasn't raiding then as a tank. I did do a few attempts though.) And yes, you can use a CD - but isn't it better to maximize EH? This was especially useful for druids, who have a weak but more frequent CD. Maybe it's a druid thing. I don't know. Druids can use resistance gear more easily, and they tend to be LWs when others aren't. It's one of the burstier parts, and that 47k melee hit wasn't going to kill you; it was the 47k hit + a static tick that would. And NR would help with the latter. Heck, armor would be better there; if you're taking 47k melee hits you're taking hits that are around 150k pre-armor, which means that each 1% armor reduction cuts that attack by 1500 damage. That's a lot better per itemization point than stamina is for the most part in terms of EH. You had ferals in fire resist too. That's how I beat him, and it was a lot less RNG dependent than wearing max stam and hoping that external CDs were ready to go and a bad wave didn't cause your CD guy to go out of range. The main benefit some avoidance has on Anub'arak is that it's helpful when P3 hits to take fewer hits while the healers are stressed out. It reduces HPS requirements, and that's useful. The secondary benefit is that it's not health, which means it's not doing more damage to you and it's not healing him more. Like I said, the biggest wins are going to come from armor and NR, not avoidance - but if you had a choice between for example a high stam piece and a high avoidance piece, it's not insane to pick the latter over the former assuming you hit the slash/leech/melee threshold acceptably. As to tanks dying on anything other than Gormok/Anub MT/Anub OT, the only other situation I've ever seen a tank die is on Icehowl enrage. It's really hard for me to imagine a tank dying at any other point. Jaraxxus adds hit for next to nothing, twin dual wielding is at best a CD (and more often than not I just ignore it), worms don't hit particularly hard either. None of these stress the tank significantly enough to matter. And health isn't optimal for all of these situations either. Again, maybe it's a druid thing. With the nerf to druid avoidance druids are about 10% behind other tanks. From our logs, my damage intake on Algalon was identical to the other tank despite taking 20% less damage per hit (even with block factored in) than any other tank, and the big reason was simply avoidance. With Algalon, because he hits so often, you start getting into the realm of statistical likelihood instead of weird streaks and worst-case scenarios. The magical damage was inconsequential compared; 5k cosmic smashes, maybe the random constellation. And we had spriests soaking, so we could use all CDs on him and not the big bang. In any case, I guess we're arguing past each other. I'm stating that avoidance isn't key for a lot of fights (really, Algalon, Anub adds and Vezax are the only ones that come to mind), but EH comes in a lot of forms, and pure stamina is not always optimal and is in some cases even detrimental relative to other choices. I'd agree that very rarely should you gear for avoidance specifically. But I'd disagree that the only other choice is stamina.

*begins foaming at the mouth*

Also: f***ing try heroic 25 Anub'Arak and tell me dodge is important when you're frozen and get the living crap kicked out of you.

NR is not EHP, at all, and static charge is the least of a tanks worries. And yes, back in June 47k would kill me.

Our druid tanked Steelbreaker once DKs were nerfed, he just hit survival instincts and just had so many hps that he could be healed through anything, it was a joke he almost didn't need cooldowns, he did the same thing on General Hardmode (again killed pre-nerf) and he tanked both the animus and general at the same time, in raw HP gear.


If you died on Algalon it's 'cuz you didn't have the EHP for it 'cuz you were going for dodge, that's especially proven if you had the same dmg intake as other tanks.

Edited to try and be less mean and nerd-ragey.

[felhoof]

*begins foaming at the mouth* Also: f***ing try heroic 25 Anub'Arak and tell me dodge is important when you're frozen and get the living crap kicked out of you.

It's not. But since I have 52k in my NR setup and don't want more health and can't get more armor without going agility, it's great to have a bit more anyway. Again, I've hit the EH threshold I need for the encounter; I have about 35k armor, 52k health. More health on this won't help me survive nearly as much as more armor will. The only time I've died is when adds start to teleport behind me. Anub'arak isn't threatening at all.

NR is not EHP, at all, and static charge is the least of a tanks worries. And yes, back in June 47k would kill me.

Sucks to be you then. Guess you could have use more health. That's not the case for all tanks.

NR isn't effective health, but it is magical effective health. And while you can't guarantee precisely how much damage will be resisted, you can guarantee that it will be within a given range - which again, is 100% guaranteeable and easily verifiable. This was the principle behind getting FR on Sarth3d, and it worked out very well.

Again, I know ferals who did NR on IC, and for them it worked out better than going straight stam. That isn't to say that it would be the case for everyone, but for them it worked better.

Our druid tanked Steelbreaker once DKs were nerfed, he just hit survival instincts and just had so many hps that he could be healed through anything, it was a joke he almost didn't need cooldowns, he did the same thing on General Hardmode (again killed pre-nerf) and he tanked both the animus and general at the same time, in raw HP gear.

Awesome.

Would it have worked if he had avoidance? Would it have been better? How about in NR gear - would that have worked better for him?

I'm not saying health doesn't work - it can work. I'm saying that other things can work as well, and in some cases can work better. Heck, I'm willing to bet that with Vezax and Steelbreaker the gearing choices were not nearly as important as the cooldown use.

If you died on Algalon it's 'cuz you didn't have the EHP for it 'cuz you were going for dodge, that's especially proven if you had the same dmg intake as other tanks. Edited to try and be less mean and nerd-ragey.

I had significantly more EH than the other tanks. I didn't gear for dodge; I geared for EH. I had 53k health and one armor trinket + black heart, using indestructible pots and elixirs of armor.

It wasn't as good as a 45k DK with significantly less armor than me.

Just trying to puzzle this out: if I had the same damage intake as other tanks but took 20% less per hit, and had more health than other tanks - how exactly is more EH helping here? How does the logic actually follow that stacking even more EH would actually reduce my damage intake? I guess I could have gone for even more armor somehow, which would have reduced my incoming damage some - but it still would have not been significant.

10% avoidance is a fair amount. Sorry if you don't see that.

[Edgewalker]

[19:22:25.105] Anub'arak hits Fattycop 25675 (A: 2172)
[19:22:25.186] Anub'arak Leeching Swarm Fattycop 10564 (R: 2641)
[19:22:25.296] Anub'arak Freezing Slash Fattycop 23948 (O: 1039)
[19:22:25.561] Fattycop dies

Just saying.

[minrog]

Blizzard feels it is desirous for you to wear a bunch of avoidance and block gear. They do this because it introduces randomization and makes the encounters more difficult. By buying into their avoidance design philosophy you are purposefully making the encounters more difficult for your raid; whatever floats your boat.

I would run with 0% avoidance if I could. If I could reclaim all the wasted itemization from dodge/block/parry/defense rating and convert it into stamina and armor I would do it in a heartbeat. I could then setup the raid healing against predictable damage at precise intervals. Taking out the random elements makes a fight easy mode.

The other end of the scale is getting maximum avoidance, thus being able to avoid or reduce all melee damage. I like this idea but it is only effective if you can get 102.6%, otherwise you can't plan for it always being functional. At this end of the spectrum the magic damage spikes will probably still kill you. One of the benefits to armor/stam stacking is that it doesn't cripple your hp totals as badly as you would if you stacked avoidance/block.

[felhoof]

[19:22:25.105] Anub'arak hits Fattycop 25675 (A: 2172) [19:22:25.186] Anub'arak Leeching Swarm Fattycop 10564 (R: 2641) [19:22:25.296] Anub'arak Freezing Slash Fattycop 23948 (O: 1039) [19:22:25.561] Fattycop dies Just saying.

So for Fattycop (whoever he is), it'd be better to stack EH.

I didn't deny that.

I'm saying that EH has a threshold, and beyond a certain point its usefulness is diminished. Before that EH is definitely the best thing to stack. But afterwards? Not so much.

For a counterexample, here's a sample from last night:
[22:03:29.656] Anub'arak casts Freezing Slash on Fellhoof
[22:03:29.843] Anub'arak Freezing Slash Fellhoof 2127 (A: 9910)
[22:03:31.531] Anub'arak hits Fellhoof 19915 (A: 3096)

or
[21:43:00.687]Anub'arak Freezing Slash Fellhoof 13919
[21:43:02.437]Anub'arak hits Fellhoof 18364 (A: 1929)

Even with leeching swarm ticks hitting for 10k (which they don't; they hit for about 6k in the setup I have) I still need a bit more than 40k health to survive that. What advantage does dodge give? Well, in your above example it gives a slightly better chance to not be hit before you get slashed.

[Aggathon]

Source: Edgewalker [19:22:25.105] Anub'arak hits Fattycop 25675 (A: 2172) [19:22:25.186] Anub'arak Leeching Swarm Fattycop 10564 (R: 2641) [19:22:25.296] Anub'arak Freezing Slash Fattycop 23948 (O: 1039) [19:22:25.561] Fattycop dies Just saying.

BUT NR WOULD PREVENT THAT MAN!!!!.

In June: no warrior had 47khps. Once I re-geared and Re-gemmed for max EHP I was around 45khps, you'd have to pretty much have full BiS gear from ulduar hardmodes to get that, and if you're working on steelbreaker then you're not there.

I'm gonna stop arguing with you, I just feel bad for people that listen to you, one of the reasons I avoided tankspot for a long time was people posting mindless dribble. I've been there, I've tanked the fights, I've lead the guilds/been an officer in the guilds that have done all this, and way before these fights were nerfed and you finally got around to them with ilevel245/258 gear. Honestly from your posts/achievement dates it seems like you got the gear, found the nerfed fights, and just stomped it.

[Edgewalker]

Source: felhoof Even with leeching swarm ticks hitting for 10k (which they don't; they hit for about 6k in the setup I have) I still need a bit more than 40k health to survive that. What advantage does dodge give? Well, in your above example it gives a slightly better chance to not be hit before you get slashed.

...

Clearly this is hitting you in the brain and exploding.
I'll just call it a day, I'm sure more of these posts will happen in the future so I can argue with lunatics.

[felhoof]

I'm gonna stop arguing with you, I just feel bad for people that listen to you, one of the reasons I avoided tankspot for a long time was people posting mindless dribble. I've been there, I've tanked the fights, I've lead the guilds/been an officer in the guilds that have done all this, and way before these fights were nerfed and you finally got around to them with ilevel245/258 gear. Honestly from your posts/achievement dates it seems like you got the gear, found the nerfed fights, and just stomped it.

Ah, awesome - the epeenery commences.

Would it possibly - just possibly - be hard for you to understand that not everyone plays a warrior? This was why I didn't come to tankspot for the longest time either - because it was so insanely warrior-centric that no other tank PoV would be remotely considered.

Druids had 45k health before they walked in the door for Ulduar. They could easily hit 50k by the time they'd gone through Yogg. They have options you don't. That sucks, and I think it's wrong, but there it is. And if you believe EH is the be-all, end all for every single tank out there, I'm here to tell you that you're wrong.

Warriors have absurdly low EH relative to other tanks right now. For a warrior, I will grant you - EH is simply the only way to go (except on fights where it isn't, like Anubarak add tanking). For other tanks, there are other options and better choices. I'm not the only tank that's done NR on Anub'arak hard mode; point of fact, Premonition did it for their first kill and Vodka did it for theirs. Are they scrubs who outgeared the content? Heck, Premonition is a great example: on their first kill neither tank geared for EH. Their druid had a ton of agility socketed in their stuff along with NR enchants, and you all know about Xav.

So tell me - do they suck? Are they dealing with nerfed fights?

Or is there possibly some merit to thinking a bit differently once you hit EH thresholds that you need?

Clearly this is hitting you in the brain and exploding. I'll just call it a day, I'm sure more of these posts will happen in the future so I can argue with lunatics.

That's constructive. I'm not sure what you're missing here. I have on average about 35% resistance on leeching swarm ticks. My average hit on melee is 17k. Freezing slash hits for 13k.

Do I need 60k health to deal with the worst case scenario? Or would it be better to cut off 500,000 healing on the boss while reducing incoming damage?

[Satrina]

I apparently am late coming back to this party and missed the good parts.

Source: Aggathon There is ONE and only ONE fight in which avoidance is god, and that's tanking heroic anub'arak adds, and in order to be able to do it you need 101.6% (I think is the number, most tanks prefer higher) dodge+block+parry+miss.

You quoted my post and replied with this. Interestingly enough, I never used the word avoidance.

[Edgewalker]

Source: felhoof Do I need 60k health to deal with the worst case scenario? Or would it be better to cut off 500,000 healing on the boss while reducing incoming damage?

No, but the entire discussion becomes irrelevant when you post a damage log from a completely trivial normal mode boss.
It would be like me posting a Jaraxxus log and advocating DPS gear to tank because worst case scenario he melees me down in 55 seconds without heals.

[Aggathon]

Source: felhoof So for Fattycop (whoever he is), it'd be better to stack EH. I didn't deny that. I'm saying that EH has a threshold, and beyond a certain point its usefulness is diminished. Before that EH is definitely the best thing to stack. But afterwards? Not so much. For a counterexample, here's a sample from last night: [22:03:29.656] Anub'arak casts Freezing Slash on Fellhoof [22:03:29.843] Anub'arak Freezing Slash Fellhoof 2127 (A: 9910) [22:03:31.531] Anub'arak hits Fellhoof 19915 (A: 3096) or [21:43:00.687] Anub'arak Freezing Slash Fellhoof 13919 [21:43:02.437] Anub'arak hits Fellhoof 18364 (A: 1929) Even with leeching swarm ticks hitting for 10k (which they don't; they hit for about 6k in the setup I have) I still need a bit more than 40k health to survive that. What advantage does dodge give? Well, in your above example it gives a slightly better chance to not be hit before you get slashed.

There is a SIGNIFICANT difference between Anub25 normal and heroic, show us a parse of a heroic kill, or at least to like 10% or something, THEN I'll be impressed and believe you.

[felhoof]

No, but the entire discussion becomes irrelevant when you post a damage log from a completely trivial normal mode boss. It would be like me posting a Jaraxxus log and advocating DPS gear to tank because worst case scenario he melees me down in 55 seconds without heals.

That was my log from the 25-man heroic attempts we did last night. I admit, we didn't get to phase 3 last night at all, but it's not hard to extrapolate how much the leeching swarm ticks do.

My normal logs look like this:
[19:43:24.000]Anub'arak hits Fellhoof 14909 (A: 1728)
[19:43:25.187] Anub'arak casts Freezing Slash on Fellhoof
[19:43:25.265] Anub'arak Freezing Slash Fellhoof 13360
[19:43:27.015] Anub'arak hits Fellhoof 12898

Significantly lower melee damage (and 3 hours prior). With ticks, it looks like:
[19:48:47.125] Anub'arak hits Fellhoof 11983 (A: 7084)
[19:48:47.515] Anub'arak casts Freezing Slash on Fellhoof
[19:48:47.781] Anub'arak Freezing Slash Fellhoof 11762
[19:48:48.000] Anub'arak Leeching Swarm Fellhoof 1513 (R: 378)

Not a lot of damage there, but again - you can figure out exactly how much 20% damage at 52k health is going to be (10.4k) and then figure out how much you'll take with resistance or not (in my case, about 6k after potp and 30% average resistance factor in). That part is the same damage on 10 heroic and 25.

Heh. I didn't realize that those were links, so you could've seen the logs anyway. Oops. I'll edit.

[felhoof]

Just like you, Aggathon, I don't have a heroic kill of Anub'arak yet. We haven't gotten to phase 3 in 25-man hard mode. Those are the heroic parses from our guild's log. I'm happy to PM you the log for last night if you like, but I'd rather not post them publicly.

Again, the damage from the ticks is always 20% of your current health; at max health for me that's 10.4k before resist/absorbs/whatever. If you really will discount my entire point because I didn't get to phase 3 in heroic 25 yet, I'm not sure it's reasonable to say. I guess I can try and find a vodka or premo parse for you to look at.

[felhoof]

Here's premonition's attempt on their Tribute to Insanity log.

Some examples:


[20:45:25.015] Anub'arak Leeching Swarm Melaar 6136 (A: 4090, R: 4383)
[20:45:25.828] Anub'arak Leeching Swarm Melaar 5624 (A: 3749, R: 4017)
[20:45:26.921] Anub'arak hits Melaar 19731 (A: 2045)
[20:45:27.031] Anub'arak Leeching Swarm Melaar 5259 (A: 3506, R: 5843)
[20:45:27.875] Anub'arak Leeching Swarm Melaar 2525 (A: 5540, R: 3456)
[20:45:28.578] Anub'arak casts Freezing Slash on Melaar
[20:45:28.687] Anub'arak Freezing Slash Melaar 13594 (A: 9063)
[20:45:29.000] Anub'arak Leeching Swarm Melaar 5259 (A: 3506, R: 5843)
[20:45:29.921] Anub'arak Leeching Swarm Melaar 9371 (R: 2343)
[20:45:31.000] Anub'arak hits Melaar 21630 (A: 2045)

Now, he has a bit more health than I do in the similar setup (you can tell from the freezing slash, since that always does 25% damage and he's taking 20k from it) but the melee is pretty close to the same, and I suspect I have better armor than he does when he did that.

So for him, the EH threshold to survive a melee + slash + tick was what, about 50k? 51k? Something like that.

[Aggathon]

It's my understanding that the vodka and premo druids used 4 pc T9 for lower cooldown on barkskin so that they could barksin every freezing slash. I honestly haven't looked to see how the NR gear stacks up, but it's also probable they have more EHP. If you'd like to link what pieces you use it may help.

Also: this did start out as a paladin thread, wars/pals still gear for EHP since we have naturally (especially warriors) smaller EHP pools than druids.

Our druid (Bruoco if you wanna armory him, though he may be in dps garb atm) rolls in full EHP gear, and we HAVE gotten below 30%, fairly consistantly now. Healing him has never been an issue, he has never died prematurely. It's either been add aggro or deaths to penetrating cold.

Also: you did post the log when you copied it, I looked at it and just saw the normal kill, so I assumed that was what it was from.

[felhoof]

Yeah, I saw that I posted the log. My bad. I'd appreciate if you removed your quote if you could that references that.

The log is from everything - there are parts that have both normal and hardmode. The snippet I quoted was from the hard mode part, since I just grabbed all events from all anub'arak.

Again, tank death wasn't a problem at all in terms of getting to P3. It's just the organizational stuff, the usual things that we have to work through. I never died to anything other than adds running loose or called wipes.

You can use 4pT9 and still have almost 300 NR on the boss. The NR I'm talking about is a NR totem, lesser flask of resistance, cloak enchant, head enchant and bracer enchant. That gets you to 295. That's all I use and as far as I know, all Melthu uses - and all that Melaar used. The primary advantage of this isn't healing the tank (though that's nice) - the main thing it does is reduce the healing done on Anub'arak. That it also reduces healing requirements is awesome.

We found on our 10-man hard mode that that change alone reduced incoming healing done to Anub'arak by 200k, and that was with a 45-second phase 3. With a 2-minute or more phase 3 (which is now pretty typical) that's going to be a substantial amount of healing not done.