[Splug]

"You don't have to be perfect, you just have to be good enough."

As for dual wielding vs 2h, since the whole thread is with respect to blood, I agree with Edge - I can't see any way that dual wielding yields a threat increase. Even going partially into frost, there just isn't enough support for strike damage to allow the higher autoattack damage to be a net-gain. It would be threat for avoidance, at absolute best.

As for parry haste overall, I think the topic is extremely overblown. Critical hits create a large single-hit damage spike with zero reaction time. Parry-haste does temporarily increase the throughput damage, but it is subject to avoidance, provides an interval for HoT ticks / Sacred Shield restores, and reaction time for the tank to realize they've entered a dangerous state. If the first swing occurs at full health, the second one is unlikely to be lethal. If the first swing occurs at a point where the second would be lethal, the tank should be responding with off-GCD abilities to reduce the effect of the second hit whether it's hasted or not. The window for reaction reduces, instead of being removed, and that's a very significant change. That... and you're talking about an event that won't be removed for a slower weapon / fewer attacks anyway. You're not changing the "worst case scenario" at all; just making it imperceptibly more common.

-Splug

[Satorri]

On Blood, I don't know that dual wielding could do remotely better, but the big reason I would avoid it is strictly for the fact that it dwarfs down all of your active moves.

If only there were a way to get a double weapon hit on HS, it'd be deadly. =)

[Edgewalker]

I meant even with Frost Tanking, but especially with Blood Tanking
I have a frost spec and set I use for raw avoidance to test now, but it definitely is lacking in the threat department in comparison, especially spike threat.

[Craxs]

Source: dhthomps Your need (or lack thereof) of SoB is player-based, not math based (the TPS from those extra death coils is arguably non-competitive with other talents). As Satorri mentioned he keeps a certain amount of runic power to ALWAYS be able to rune strike, IBF, AMS when needed. Personally I keep 1 or 2 points in SoB for insurance purposes, my awareness of my RP needs work. What I takeaway from Suno's post is - Rune Tap and MoB scale with player skill, SoB scales inversely with player skill. If I spent some quality time working on keeping a base amount of RP I could happily move those points from SoB to Morbidity or Sudden Doom.

One thing that many people seem to forget (though I'm not saying you did) is that it's not only player-based, it's also raid/healer-based.

I've frequently noted that the people that don't think SoB is necessary usually have a Druid or Priest healer in the raid. The extra RP you get from them can make up for its absence. I find RP discussions particularly interesting. During early theorycraft discussions, you'd here people say "more RP is better... always", but as we are maturing as a community, it's becoming obvious that we can't always *spend* RP - there just aren't enough GCDs in a day, as it were. Consequently, it's important to have *enough* RP to do three things:

1. Take advantage of all available RS opportunities
2. Fill in all GCD gaps in our rotations with DC/FS/Etc.
3. Keep enough in reserve for special uses - IBF (if not glyphed), AMS, & Mind Freeze mostly.

Any more than that is a complete waste. Since SoB is the only real place we can cut RP generation from, it's natural to drop it in favor of other, more useful talents once we feel we have "sufficient" RP to do all 3 tasks above. Obviously, this varies too much by avoidance, raid composition, boss attack speed and healing assignments to do any hard math on, but it's certainly an area to consider optimizing as we get better geared.

[Satorri]

I disagree on that one though, Edge. Frost still has some of the most fantastic snap damage for DK's, admittedly less so since I switched back to a 2-disease method (dual Oblits do ridiculous things with Rime procs). That said, I also switched my Frost spec back to dps, because I enjoy dpsing frost more than tanking, and my Blood spec covers the bases just fine for tanking.

And Craxs, I don't recall ever saying/hearing "more RP is always better." =) Your point is well-said though.

[blackthorn]

Epic ty Satorri for taking the time to explain blood tanking and the hows and whys of your spec. There are many dpser ,like myself, that just love our dk's and want to do more for our raid and enjoyment. This will go far to provide a foundation upon which we can all build our own toon and progress as DK tanks. MOST IMPORTANTLY IMO is with the proper use of this info shall DK tanks raise the bar so too speak amongst the WoW community.

Ty again

[zaubade]

I have finally gotten around to reading the incredibly informative wall o text. thanks for all the hard work there Satorri. I have also finished reading all of the replies and discussion which has once again reminded me why I love TankSpot different views and ideas discused in a helpfull way.

[SavageKai]

with the lack oh hit rating on the new gear. how are you all compensating for the lack of hit?

[vine]

Source: SavageKai with the lack oh hit rating on the new gear. how are you all compensating for the lack of hit?

What new gear are you referring to? Almost every T9 piece has hit on it, the non-tier ToC10/25 pieces generally have expertise. You need to mix and match.

[Edgewalker]

Shoulders and Helmet both have hit. I'll probably use Dreadscale Bracers, Heroic Version when available. 10 Hit / 15 Stam Gems in Yellow Sockets to flesh out the rest.

[Satorri]

I've been shy on hit for some time. It's not ideal, but it isn't the end of the world either.

For the t9/Ulduar crowd, the Flame Lev bracers, boots from Ignis, cloak from Auri, and the badge neck all have hit rating.

As Blood though, and I can't stress this enough, hit rating should be second priority to expertise unless you are over the soft cap (26 expertise), at which point Expertise is still almost helping you as much as hit rating (only that hit rating also benefits RS, Death Coil, IT, and a little bit to DnD and BB which appear to hit cap much sooner than the spell cap).

On top of Hit/Stam gems, which are nice, you can also enjoy the easy to make hit food (Worg Tartare). That can be handy for ensuring you don't get missed much.

[Nejir]

Satorri, what about you aoe threat. ;o
You talk about the single target but not about the aoe part.
:3

[Mecer]

Yeah I go by the moto of remaining hit capped and expertise capped for max threat. It makes upgrades tough to find (my weapon for instance has +94 Hit, replacing it produces a big +hit gap). I have begun to collect offset gear that although has less avoidance, provides +hit or expertise so that other I can make upgrades without losing threat stats.

This concept btw is one of the reasons that makes the Uldar25 craftable tank items so powerfull, 3gems in a belt can go a LONG way to offset missing stats(2 from the boots too).

btw, Satorri you are a lucky space cow with your +1% hit! grrrrrrrr!

M

[Edgewalker]

Mecer... the crafted pieces are extremely inferior to the badge bought belt or any number of relatively easily obtainable boots now if you are looking for hit or expertise. The belt is easier to obtain than the crafted Indestructible as well.
You lose an almost negligible amount of avoidance in switching, in the .2-.3 range for me with diminishing, and about 200 life, for 1.7 hit. It's worthwhile trade if you are suffering for threat, or it's a burst threat required encounter.

[Satorri]

Nejir, it's a little slower than some to ramp up, but I hold aoe threat like a breeze.

Apply diseases, pestilence them to everything, the replace HS with BB on most Blood/Death Runes. It works quite well. With my talent spec I usually see it hit for 1200 or so, and crits pop up close to 3k. This is a little rougher in 5-mans depending on who you're running with, but it's just fine in raids with the tasty spell crit, hit, and damage buffs.

[Mecer]

Source: Edgewalker Mecer... the crafted pieces are extremely inferior to the badge bought belt or any number of relatively easily obtainable boots now if you are looking for hit or expertise. The belt is easier to obtain than the crafted Indestructible as well. You lose an almost negligible amount of avoidance in switching, in the .2-.3 range for me with diminishing, and about 200 life, for 1.7 hit. It's worthwhile trade if you are suffering for threat, or it's a burst threat required encounter.

Im not looking for +hit or +expertise, im capped in both from other items. My point is the set of socets gained from the belt/boots provide significant flexibilty in gearing options.

Having gotten both before 3.2, Ive gotten more than my fair share of use out of them. Imo they are far from the inferior unless you are trying to suplement a large gap in a specific rating. Again the socket belt/boots provide flexibilty if missing 10-20 rating allowing you to fill in the hole.

M

[vine]

I agree, the crafted gear is far from useless. Take them for what they are: stam/avoidance set. Don't berate them for not being threat pieces.

[dhthomps]

Source: Satorri Nejir, it's a little slower than some to ramp up, but I hold aoe threat like a breeze. Apply diseases, pestilence them to everything, the replace HS with BB on most Blood/Death Runes. It works quite well. With my talent spec I usually see it hit for 1200 or so, and crits pop up close to 3k. This is a little rougher in 5-mans depending on who you're running with, but it's just fine in raids with the tasty spell crit, hit, and damage buffs.

I try to smoothe out 5 man pulls by using DS towards the end of pulls to make sure I have death runes in the beginning of the next pull. 2-4 Blood Boils is fine for most groups.

[Edgewalker]

Source: vine I agree, the crafted gear is far from useless. Take them for what they are: stam/avoidance set. Don't berate them for not being threat pieces.

"I have begun to collect offset gear that although has less avoidance, provides +hit or expertise so that other I can make upgrades without losing threat stats.

This concept btw is one of the reasons that makes the Uldar25 craftable tank items so powerfull, 3gems in a belt can go a LONG way to offset missing stats(2 from the boots too)."


I was refuting those 2 points. They don't add up. The crafted pieces aren't the pieces in the first part of the statement.
It's not science.

[Nejir]

By the way, Satorri when you say "IT, PS, HS, DS, HS. However, the standard cruising rotation, when paired with Epidemic and DRM, becomes: Pest, DS, HS, DS / HS, HS, HS, HS, HS, HS." does that mean your rotation has 3 parts or is it according to when you want to use which?