[keebz]

Source: Dravok I would like to switch to blood but I am concerned about running heroics and dealing with holding threat with multiple mobs. Could you give advice on an AoE rotation to hold threat?

Alright, I'll give you the rundown. I used to be Frost and I loved it (I still do) for Heroics. It really is optimized for Heroics, allowing you to make multiple *pack* pulls and not worrying about aggro. However, Blood is awesome. I can still tank Heroics very fast and make large pulls, but it takes a second or two to make sure I have aggro on everything, and I tab-target a lot (for Death Strike, and Heart Strike cleaves so that's nice). This AoE problem, in my opinion, is greatest in the very first part of Oculus...but who goes there a lot?

If you were to run with me in a Heroic, you'd see me making fast and large pulls as Blood, but having the occasional aggro problem on 1-2 mobs in a large pack, but it's very rarely a survivability problem. Now, I also tank ToC10/25/ToGC10, so if you were to run with me there, you would see me being much more comfortable (even Ulduar with the trash and AoE is no problem at all). I have single-tanked Ony10, and, yes, whelps were not a problem. I love Blood tanking now. I was extremely anxious to try it out, and then after I switched, I was very uncomfortable with it because I didn't have all these "snap aggro" buttons like HB (glyphed) and Deathchill. Honestly, though, it is no problem at all. It is fun tanking as Blood whether you are in a Heroic or in a raid. Frost is also fun, but as someone pointed out on Tankspot in another thread, Blood allows you to see more of what's going on around you, as opposed to always being focused on tanking.

Everyone should try Blood if they have decent gear. It's not a great idea to go Blood if you don't have some Ulduar level gear at least as at this point, your DPS will probably outgear you and that would be a problem with Blood...of course, with Frost/Unholy too. Shouldn't have the slightest problem in Heroics though, and it'll be fun. Just start all AoE pulls with DnD. As much as you would like to apply diseases to one target, and then pestilence to the others, trust me it's not a great idea. Think of DnD as your Glyphed-HB; it will warm your threat up while you get ready to spike it.

P.S. Another thing to note is that I am main-spec DPS, but I love tanking so I wanted a tank offspec. I originally thought that Frost was the way to go since I would only have 1 tank spec, and Frost is considered to be balanced for AoE vs. Bosses. I have to say, though, that I truly do like Blood. Even in Heroics, if a healer dies, I can pop Vampiric Blood, Raise Dead + Death Pact for ~18k+, or Rune Tap for ~10k+, Death Strike for ~8k+, etc. (keep in mind some of these are heroic numbers, not ~45k+ health raid numbers). This is situational, but then again I guess everything is, eh?

[Satorri]

Keebz said it well.

As Blood it is very smart for AoE threat to swap targets smartly. It is a skill that takes some development, and it is not particularly necessary once you set your diseases and roll BB's and HS cleaves, but if you continue to do it, it will be a big help. I think it is actually a key skill for advanced tanks of any class.

To aid with this there are two UI/Player-side elements:
1.) I highly recommend using over-head health bars. It lets you see who is getting hit most, and now it can include a threat indicator when you're getting close to losing threat or if you don't have their attention. Get used to targeting smartly and you can make it a non-issue. In other words, if you see one or more of your off-targets is dropping enough to notice, swap from your main target to that, even if it's just for a couple auto-swings and a move or two, that will help shore up your threat.

2.) Develop a sense for how much damage you're doing to the targets you hit. Get used to making quick glances at your threat meter, and noticing the scale of how much *you* hit the target for. This will allow you to make smarter decisions about who needs how much of your attention.


This is the advanced end, mind you. At the beginning it is enough to let your DPS know you'll need a couple CD's to start building strong threat, and courteous people will give you that and wait a bit before opening up both barrels. It is in your best interest for sustained threat to have both diseases up on all targets at all times, but if you find yourself losing threat or if you've just taunted a target back and need to pick up a quick lead, DS damage is not dependent on diseases so that can be a quick way to spike up a bit, even if you don't have diseases on that target.

[Satorri]

I have to say, the 2 pc t9 set bonus makes me a happy tank. +5% HS damage? Why yes I will, thank you.


Also, a point of resolution that I will try to hunt down in my original work, Sudden Doom can proc on the cleave hit of HS, so each HS that hits two targets has two chances to proc, though it will shoot it at the target it procs on (i.e. boss + add, if it procs on the cleaved add, it will hit the add).

[fistfullofbeer]

I am no big number cruncher but for giggles I decided to use Satorri's 52/8/10 (yes, havent done anything with the last point) build in Rawr (not quite sure how accurate the tool is) to just compare that to my current gear and frost tanking build. I am by no means the best geared or skilled DK tank out there but the results of Rawr kind of surprised me:

Blood (52/8/10) vs Frost (10/51/10)
Survival Points: 79049/76451
Mitigation Points: 38232/41973
Threat Points: 12175/7485
Overall Points: 129457/125910

Health: 31596/30261
Armor: 24983/25392

The loss in Mitigation is understandable given no Frigid Dreadplate

These are all assuming Single Targets and not AoE. Now, I am not quite sure how to read these numbers but Blood does look pretty darn good. While I understand the drawback of AoE tanking with Blood(rolling HB's and DS's as opposed to Howling Blast) it definitely seems do-able. Used to do this with rolling Swipes on my Druid back in the day. Another thing that might take some this is getting used to regularly using Vampiric Blood and Rune tap but its just part of the learning process.

The numbers I gave above was for a tentative set of gear I am going to have by the end of today (or tomorrow) replacing my belt with Shieldwarder Girdle and one of my Rings with Clutch of Fortification. So what do you guys think?

[Satorri]

The numbers seem about right. Of course they don't account for self-healing. =) There really isn't a clean way to generalize about that though, since it's highly subjective to the user. Some blood tanks don't use self-heals other than DS that happens to work. Others (like me) use it heavily and conscientiously. Depending on where you fall you'll see more or less survival value for that.

AoE tanking as Blood is not as laughably easy as Swipe/Maul spam for a bear, but it is absolutely doable, enough that when I had a Frost offspec I didn't feel it was worth the pre-fight time to switch specs to aoe tank.

[Edgewalker]

I knew you would come around to Sudden Doom someday

I also don't understand the myth that one spec is better than another based on gear levels... If you are tanking heroics / just starting out tanking, pick your spec based on comfort and ease of use. Don't pick it because someone without a firm grasp on tanking claimed that the minor bonuses of mitigation in frost or the physical nature of blood required different levels of gear (hint: they dont).

[Satorri]

^^ Edge speaks the truth.

Me on Sudden Doom? I <3 that it hits both targets. =) That's what let's it keep up with value on Necrosis, and I suspect that with the slight shift in proportions, in ICC it may out-pace Necrosis with the reduced amounts of RS (the RS glyph may see less play too).

[fistfullofbeer]

Source: Satorri AoE tanking as Blood is not as laughably easy as Swipe/Maul spam for a bear, but it is absolutely doable, enough that when I had a Frost offspec I didn't feel it was worth the pre-fight time to switch specs to aoe tank.

Yah. I definitely get that. But I was talking before Swipe hit more than 3 targets and glyph of Maul letting you hit 2 targets ..

Only thing that I am a little bit apprehensive about (and can honestly only come with practice and experience as a DK) is what kind of tentative rotation to start with on pulls with multiple mobs (5+):

DnD, IT, PS, Pest ...

Then what? Should I start using my Blood Runes for Blood Boils or throw rolling HB's at the start?

I am assuming the priority is always to make sure the diseases are up so probably throw Pestilence (with the Disease Glyph) to make sure that diseases are refreshed across the group.

I am pretty sure that Single Target rotation(s) should be relatively easier with this Build just not quite sure about the AoE one.

Also, I definitely plan to use Rune Tap actively but my feeling is this will probably be more so in Boss fights than AoE pulls.

Thanks.

[Satorri]

After disease setup like you described, I usually DS and spam some BB's to make sure there's a good foundation on everything.

I don't re-apply DnD, usually, but rather I keep rolling BB's and switch to HS/DS on specific targets to bolster threat on targets that got less of my threat for some reason. Randomly switching targets for spreading the auto-attacks around is good too, albeit easier to do once you're much more comfortable keeping your moves going, while watching threat and everything's health bars.

[Vah]

I've also had Sudden Doom in my build for as long as i can remember. I agree that it is extremely nice when tanking multiple mobs as it procs off cleave from Heart Strike, but is the 15% chance for a DC worth it? In average thats 1 DC proc off 6-7 heart strikes (or 1 extra DC every 2nd rotation) on average. Is that 1500-2500 DC worth 3 points over necrosis. scent of blood,or subversion? I have a feeling SoB will be less useful as rune strikes will be less often.

That brings me to my next point, will WotN be worth the 3 points in IIC as well? From PTR testing, most of the bosses hit anywhere from 15-25k on average per swing. (Not taking into account Festergut when his buff reaches 3 stacks) 15% of a 25k hit (if u were to drop below 35%) would net 3750 damage. My guild also has 3 legendary maces and tank health doesn't typically drop that low with double beacon on tanks + mace procs.

I'll most likely be running 2 different blood builds for IIC progression, one for the standard threat/cookie cutter and then another for extreme survival with Rune tap and MoB.

I'll be bored at work today, keep me entertained Satorri!

[Edgewalker]

For AoE packs, as a matter of personal preference, I normally DnD - BB - Blood Tap - BB - Icy Touch - PS - Pestilence repeat, cycling BB in place of the PS / Icy Touch and double BBs when Death Runes refresh.
I also don't refresh DnD, instead opting for target switching with Death Strike and BB. Rarely do packs last a full DnD duration.
There are of course exceptions, but that's generally how I do it.

[Satorri]

In the mash of absolute/overall numbers, I'm fairly certain that Necrosis will benefit you more, especially if you glyph RS and do not glyph DC.

That said, the difference isn't huge, Vah. 15% is a pretty generous proc rate, it just seems low in the absolute sense.

From a tanking standpoint it can be very very nice for the burst nature of it. When it procs it is not a small gain, but a big one, and threat is not as much a matter of how much as it is a matter of being enough at the right time. If you get early procs it can be a big value.

[keebz]

I had to take my 2 points out of Necrosis and 1 from Bladed Armor for 3/3 WotN. I am tanking ToGC25 and my stats aren't the greatest for it as I just recently switched to full-time tank and my gear was mostly collected as offspec. I saw a huge improvement with WotN. I did not see a great reduction in threat after removing those 3 points (I did not have any threat problems beforehand either). This survivability spec is nice until I get some more gear, a stamina trinket, etc., after which I'll switch back to my regular 2/5 Necrosis - 5/5 Bladed Armor spec.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

For ICC, I don't know. WotN might be helpful early on but as you gear up, you'll see less need for it. That's my outlook on it, at least, but what better way than to find out when we get there?

[Edgewalker]

For pure progression in ICC I'll probably use - Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft.
I've seen a lot of spell damage though... if it's consistent enough there is a good chance I'll go frost for acclimation.

I REALLY hope there's a magicy enough fight to break out this bad boy - Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft .
Just because.

[JokerFMJ]

You don't think you'll miss the threat from 4% damage from 2-Handed Weapon Spec in that second talent setup?

[jaydee]

@edge

In your magic damage mitigation spec, how about instead of 5/5 dark conviction, go with 2/2 2H weap and 3/3 DR mastery?

[Edgewalker]

Source: jaydee @edge In your magic damage mitigation spec, how about instead of 5/5 dark conviction, go with 2/2 2H weap and 3/3 DR mastery?

I just pumped in a bunch of talent points with a basic idea in mind really quickly, there are a lot more talent points that would be better suited elsewhere. Hungering Cold and Lichborne too, ew.
I mean, if we are going true pure magical damage hypothetical boss, you drop toughness, unbreakable armor, and frigid dreadplate too.

[fistfullofbeer]

Just wanted to give some feedback of my switch. It was GREAT!

I switched to Blood last week and tried several heroics. I have been getting compliments from my healers saying that they barely need to heal me. Some of them say that they just throw some offensive spells because they are pretty bored. We dont really have many DK Tanks in the guild so they started jibbing me (in a nice way) about having not tried Blood earlier. Also, in all honesty I dont even need to use Rune Tap at all during Heroics. The DS heals are plenty.

This is a major change in their attitude from, DK tanks are not easy to heal, etc. etc.

I also gave Ony 10 a shot in a guild run where they had me on picking up the elites (the Paladin MT did both the whelps and Ony). I was a little ticked at that time because I had 3.5K health more than the Pally (slightly better gear) and figured that might be more beneficial for Tanking Ony. The fight went well except for the silly DPS not moving during Deep Breaths which led the fight to be excruciatingly long and close. The fight ended with her at 5% and just myself and 1 healer. We pulled it through. Somehow! I was the Hero of the Day.

I vote this thread .. the Best Thread Ever!