[wazdaa]

Source: Esch By that logic, a gem with 16 parry rating is equal to 24 stamina, as that's how the gems are budget. Reality is gems are continuing the pattern set up in BC, and they aren't budgeted as gear is currently. There is also diminishing returns on dodge, where stamina doesn't.

continuation or not, that's what you are working with unless you happened to find the ellusive pattern for a +20parry rating gem. now since you clearly aren't advocating an EH set, more a balanced set. i just like to point this out gladiator+2x16doge rating=30stam+32dodge rating (since you don't use the resilience) hodir+2x24stam=48stam+20dodge rating+15def rating i'd say it's pretty clear who ended up with the most stats.

Source: Esch I also didn't say you should rely on resilience to get crit immune - I said it's not ideal as you're giving up avoidance. You can be crit immune without avoidance, but you're going to take significantly more hits as a result.

Source: Esch though the 540 cap is a baseline rather than a requirement with resilience.

i'm not a native english speaker, but baseline in my book=absolute minimum therefor i can only conclude that you did say to not rely on resilience to get crit immune.

Source: Esch EH relies on health, avoidance and mitigation. Magical EH relies on... health. The commonality of health (hitpoints, stamina, etc.) is why stacking stamina is often employed. I'm not supporting that you ignore defense/avoidance, but realize that you can get to a solid level of avoidance and just start stacking health. I can see someone getting a lot of health, but the sheer lack of avoidance means that you'll take significantly more hits and be reliant on healers keeping you alive.

as far as i'm concerned EH is health and mitigation or the biggest hit you can take without dieing, avoidance doesn't come in to play there.
and i'm not even sure what the healer comment is about, you mean you tank ulduar without healers?

Source: Esch *facepalm* Why do I suspect said hunter's pet will also be a 51pt BM Spec exotic pet? Frankly, BoKings can be assumed in a 10 man as it requires a single class to be present, regardless of spec. You can assume a druid or hunter will be in a 10 man, but you can't assume how they're spent talent points. (If you get nitpicky, a lot of talented buffs/debuffs have a similar but baseline versions. Warlock Curse of Elements, for example, is a baseline version of boomkin's Earth and Moon and unholy DK's Ebonplague Bringer)

i'm happy you agree with me, you say you can assume a hunter is present and i'm pretty sure i can assume he learned Scorpid Sting - Spell - World of Warcraft and i know he will lose dps from it, but when the 3xx hp from gladiator enchant starts counting i'm pretty sure i'll be in a situation where i value 3%miss over some dps

[Ieatpugs]

I wouldn't assume the 3% miss in any raid, it's a serious dps loss for either class, with minimal gains for your tanks.

[Durandro]

Source: Satorri The issue is that Resilience when you are at 540 def is completely wasted.

Not completely wasted, as it still reduces DoT's on you (ever so slightly).

Which is why for a while I was considering if it would be worth gearing for Death Knight pvp tanking. Though ultimately it probably wouldn't be be all that great - but a little resilience isn't a terrible thing.

[Satorri]

Ieatpugs, you're clearly confused about how tanking works, ha ha. 3% miss is a lot more than a little bump for tank survival, and it's not a huge loss in dps, though it's bigger for some than others.

The balance is always key:
1.) Tank surviving long enough for your dps to kill the target, and surviving well enough to be healed through the beating.
2.) Healers having the big enough healing output to counter the incoming damage, and having the regen to be able to do so long enough for the DPS to kill the target.
3.) DPS being able to put out enough damage to kill the target before the healers run out of mana or the tank runs out of survival tools and dies to the full beating.

The 3 roles are intrinsically linked. If the dps does 100 dps less out of 50k total even 1k dps less (hyperbole and not at all the cost of switching 1 serpent sting to 1 scorpid sting), but the tank takes 3% less damage and/or has a 6% reduced chance to get hit twice in a row, your dps has plenty more time to do the killing.

Scorpid Sting and Insect Swarm reduce the hit chances by 3%. Insect Swarm is standard operating procedure by Boomkins, if you don't have one then asking one of your hunters to use Scorpid Sting should be a very small deal, I can only really imagine it reducing a MM hunter's damage by a noticeable amount through Chimera Shot. If you have no hunters or boomkin then you get no buff. =( Same as not having a Disc Priest or Protadin for 3% damage reduction on everyone (Vigilance has a cost, and is single target only, but you could count the Prot Warriors in there too).


Oh, and Durandro, yeah I remember talking about that with you. If you check your logs the actual DoT damage you take in a raid is less than 5% of your total depending on what you do and what you get stuck in. I've looked at that for the sake of figuring out the value on Spell Deflection (which only applies to non-DoT magic damage).

[Esch]

Source: wazdaa continuation or not, that's what you are working with unless you happened to find the ellusive pattern for a +20parry rating gem. now since you clearly aren't advocating an EH set, more a balanced set. i just like to point this out gladiator+2x16doge rating=30stam+32dodge rating (since you don't use the resilience) hodir+2x24stam=48stam+20dodge rating+15def rating i'd say it's pretty clear who ended up with the most stats.

Two Problems - First, please compare gems of equal level. At the moment, a 20 parry gem is epic, but so is the 20 dodge gem. Again, dodge trumps. I'm pointing out that gem budgeting is following a trend instead of a strict budget system that we see on most armor.

You are getting away from the shoulder enchants, however, by stacking gems. So, here's math purely on shoulders:

30 Stamina is 363 hitpoints (BoKings, Frost Presence) for a DK. A Blood DK specifically would have 385 hit points (384.78 exact)
20 Dodge/15 Defense is .508%+.366% = .874% avoidance (ignoring diminishing returns). (Data from tables in Satrina's Formula's post)

i'm not a native english speaker, but baseline in my book=absolute minimum therefor i can only conclude that you did say to not rely on resilience to get crit immune.

You can use resilience to get crit immune. I feel very strongly against relying on resilience if you can use defense and get avoidance as well. Again, math comparison:

10 Resilience Rating = .12% reduction in critical chance (Also gives .24% reduction in critical hit damage)
10 Defense Rating = 2.033 Defense Skill = .08% reduction in critical chance, plus .24% avoidance (dodge/parry/miss).

So, you can get critical chance negated vs level 83 bosses with far less resilience (460 according to Satrina), but you give up 11.2% avoidance in the process.

as far as i'm concerned EH is health and mitigation or the biggest hit you can take without dieing, avoidance doesn't come in to play there. and i'm not even sure what the healer comment is about, you mean you tank ulduar without healers?

The larger your health pool, the less you are reliant on the RNG (random number generation, aka 'chance') of avoidance. You can afford to take hits, and healers don't have to completely heal you constantly. To paraphrase Horacio, facing a boss doing 25k hits:

Tank with 36K health -> reduced to 11k remaining, needs 14k healing to avoid dying next hit.
Tank with 42K health -> reduced to 17k remaining, needs 8k healing to avoid dying next hit.
Tank with 48K health -> reduced to 23k remaining, needs 2k healing to avoid dying next hit.

That significant reduction in how much healing you need 'immediately' eases pressure on healers. They don't need to panic spam heals, get your health to full before the next hit, and offer some leeway to lag/latency/timing of heals as they are cast.

The bonus of avoidance is you take zero damage if you dodge/parry or are missed. No healing required. Problem is, you will get hit, and getting hit quickly twice will kill most tanks in Ulduar.

i'm happy you agree with me, you say you can assume a hunter is present and i'm pretty sure i can assume he learned Scorpid Sting - Spell - World of Warcraft and i know he will lose dps from it, but when the 3xx hp from gladiator enchant starts counting i'm pretty sure i'll be in a situation where i value 3%miss over some dps

That 3% miss is like all other avoidance, a random variable. You can stack avoidance and rely on not taking hits, but at some point, you will get hit. You will get hit again. Whether or not you have the hit points (or heals) to offset that damage will determine if you survive. Unless you can hit 100% avoidance, getting hit multiple times is a given, the question is whether your health/healing is adequate to keep you alive through the hits.

The crux of your argument wazdaa, is that avoidance trumps stamina. Problem is, avoidance is a chance to avoid damage, and a series of unavoided hits will kill tanks. Having more health is a method to negate the chances of being killed, which is why the Gladiator enchant has significant merit.

[wazdaa]

Source: Esch Two Problems - First, please compare gems of equal level. At the moment, a 20 parry gem is epic, but so is the 20 dodge gem. Again, dodge trumps. I'm pointing out that gem budgeting is following a trend instead of a strict budget system that we see on most armor.

the 20 parry gem was sarcasm. hence the 'elusive'

Source: Esch 30 Stamina is 363 hitpoints (BoKings, Frost Presence) for a DK. A Blood DK specifically would have 385 hit points (384.78 exact) 20 Dodge/15 Defense is .508%+.366% = .874% avoidance (ignoring diminishing returns). (Data from tables in Satrina's Formula's post)

point being?

Source: Esch You can use resilience to get crit immune. I feel very strongly against relying on resilience if you can use defense and get avoidance as well. Again, math comparison: 10 Resilience Rating = .12% reduction in critical chance (Also gives .24% reduction in critical hit damage) 10 Defense Rating = 2.033 Defense Skill = .08% reduction in critical chance, plus .24% avoidance (dodge/parry/miss). So, you can get critical chance negated vs level 83 bosses with far less resilience (460 according to Satrina), but you give up 11.2% avoidance in the process.

we're talking about the 15resilience rating from shoulders, not about getting all crit immunity from resilience. just wearing tanking gear will get you pretty close to 540defense if not 540defense before you even start enchanting/gemming

Source: Esch The larger your health pool, the less you are reliant on the RNG (random number generation, aka 'chance') of avoidance. You can afford to take hits, and healers don't have to completely heal you constantly. To paraphrase Horacio, facing a boss doing 25k hits: Tank with 36K health -> reduced to 11k remaining, needs 14k healing to avoid dying next hit. Tank with 42K health -> reduced to 17k remaining, needs 8k healing to avoid dying next hit. Tank with 48K health -> reduced to 23k remaining, needs 2k healing to avoid dying next hit.

which healer heals for 2k to start with and which tank healer isn't spamming that heal button in the first place? 2nd what's the difference all 3 will die next hit if they don't get healed, so unless you bring it to the point where you can survive 2hits (in this example) i really don't see the benifit from one over the other. 3rd the difference between my EH and avoidance set is like 6-7k hp not even close to the 12k hp displayed in your example.

Source: Esch That 3% miss is like all other avoidance, a random variable. You can stack avoidance and rely on not taking hits, but at some point, you will get hit. You will get hit again. Whether or not you have the hit points (or heals) to offset that damage will determine if you survive. Unless you can hit 100% avoidance, getting hit multiple times is a given, the question is whether your health/healing is adequate to keep you alive through the hits.

i don't even understand why you are arguing about this 3%, you saying you don't have it applied in raid bc it's just a chance that comes at the cost of some dps (if even any dps at all)?

Source: Esch The crux of your argument wazdaa, is that avoidance trumps stamina. Problem is, avoidance is a chance to avoid damage, and a series of unavoided hits will kill tanks. Having more health is a method to negate the chances of being killed, which is why the Gladiator enchant has significant merit.

where did i say avoidance trumps stamina? i'm just saying you are being inconsistent at one point you are making stamina the all end stat and at the other side you'd rather get to 540def then stack some extra stamina bc else you'd lose like 0.3-0.4% (i didn't even bother to calculate it sue me)
personally i still use an avoidance set and an EH set and use em when they are best suited.

[Dragaan]

Source: Satorri Ieatpugs, you're clearly confused about how tanking works, ha ha. 3% miss is a lot more than a little bump for tank survival, and it's not a huge loss in dps, though it's bigger for some than others.

I'd have to actually agree with Ieatpugs. You shouldn't assume a debuff will ALWAYS be present. In some fights, the dps has to get every boost they possibly can and the healers/tanks just have to suck it up if their job is made a bit harder. I guess it depends on what kind of raiding you are doing though. Not every guild has to min/max like that. It seems like the OP of the thread has just started with ulduar, where ieatpugs looks like he has most of the 25man hardmodes done already.

[Esch]

Source: wazdaa which healer heals for 2k to start with and which tank healer isn't spamming that heal button in the first place? 2nd what's the difference all 3 will die next hit if they don't get healed, so unless you bring it to the point where you can survive 2hits (in this example) i really don't see the benifit from one over the other. 3rd the difference between my EH and avoidance set is like 6-7k hp not even close to the 12k hp displayed in your example.

There's a huge difference between needing 2k healing over two seconds and needing 20k healing. Having additional health gives a larger buffer to soak damage and reduce the risk that the damage spike exceeds the healers' ability to save you.

Frankly, the idea of having 6K+ difference between avoidance and EH sets is... strange to me, unless you're a druid. I think I have ~2k difference, but I also adjust my tanking gear depending on my role.

Where did i say avoidance trumps stamina? i'm just saying you are being inconsistent at one point you are making stamina the all end stat and at the other side you'd rather get to 540def then stack some extra stamina bc else you'd lose like 0.3-0.4% (i didn't even bother to calculate it sue me) personally i still use an avoidance set and an EH set and use em when they are best suited.

Stamina is that good, however, as it always works. Avoidance does fail, and when it does, you either have the health to survive or you don't. I think that something is failing in the translation at this point

[Lizana]

But how often will you fail by less than 380 hp? vs. How often will that extra dodge/parry/miss save you...

[ttocs]

The age-old EH vs Avoidance argument.

There's merit to both, but if you use one, be open to the other. I've stacked EH for progressing on normal Ulduar encounters. I'm putting together a set with significantly more avoidance for some Hard Modes. Steelbreaker last is one (though I can probably do it with just IBF). Vezax hard mode is another. I'm hearing Algalon is going to also require Brutallus-style gearing.

Bottom line is, for some of these encounters, you'll likely be 2-shot no matter the health. Unless you're able to get somewhere around 60K health raid buffed, you're probably going to want to put some avoidance in there.

RNG or not (remember, this is a game of dice rolls), you can tilt the scales more in your favor.

[Dhalphir]

Source: Satorri Good points both Esch and Wazdaa. I do stand by my point that the total attribution of the dodge+parry wins on net value, the more important question is what is most valuable to your character. Personally, I'm a blood tank and I stack health to beat the band, but I am frequently pulling rabbits as it were to keep myself uncrittable. The health is not as valuable to me for that particular slot as the dodge+def is. Also, if you are a scribe it is a no brainer, the self-only master shoulder inscription blows the stam out of the water. WTB scribe shoulder enchant for stamina.

Whether or not the Gladiator inscription keeps you defense capped is irrelevant as 15 resil provides more uncrittability than 15 defense rating.

[Dragaan]

Source: Lizana But how often will you fail by less than 380 hp? vs. How often will that extra dodge/parry/miss save you...

/sigh

[Dhalphir]

Exactly, its all a moot point, and the differences between the two are minute enough thats it really comes down to whether you'd rather admire your high avoidance figures or admire a bit of extra HP.

[ttocs]

Source: Satorri Scorpid Sting and Insect Swarm reduce the hit chances by 3%. Insect Swarm is standard operating procedure by Boomkins, if you don't have one... <snip>

A lot of boomkins glyph insect swarm, which increases damage by 30% but removes the 3% miss component.

[Satorri]

The only responsible team players who do that only do it because they've spoken with their team and someone else will be applying the increased miss chance buff.

If a boomkin is removing that at the detriment to the team just to increase their damage a little, that's a poor team player.