[Satorri]

Actually, to that I have two things to point out:

1.) Righteous Fury is a frequently misunderstood spell. It increases the threat caused by "Holy spells." Note, this is the holy school of magic, not just spells that show up on the Holy spell tab in your spell book. (That's not being pointed out for you, that's for others who aren't familiar). I assume, since it does Holy damage and EVERYTHING a pally does seems to be in the holy school, that SoR is included.

2.) However, Righteous Fury is Paladins' answer to Warriors' passive threat bonus in Defensive stance. All tanks get the same multiplier in the end. Ultimately there is no comparison to draw between the two abilities because they are used by two separate classes and you will never be choosing between them.

[jere]

As a note, RF fury does the following:

Increases threat generated by all holy damage attacks and healing spells by 2.717x

Increases all other damage by 1.43x

The tooltip says 1.9, which is correct, but all tanks get an invisible baked in 1.43 modifier as well, making it 1.9*1.43 = 2.717 multiplier for holy and a 1*1.43 = 1.43 for melee.

Healing spells generate 1/4 threat for paladins, so the multiplier for healing spells is 0.67925 (as opposed to .25 without RF).

It's all listed here:
http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f14/3...at-values.html

[Mawini]

To my knowledge, all tanks do not get the same multiplier in the end.

RF actually has 2 components.

Similar to defensive stance's 1.495 multiplier (with defiance), RF has a base threat multiplier of 1.429. This applies to white damage and any school magic damage done by the paladin. Additionally, there is a 1.9 threat multiplier on holy damage alone. These total to a 2.717 threat multiplier for holy damage.

Hence the significant difference in threat output from the 'shield slam' from each class, even when factoring in shield slam's innate threat value (which I could find documented nowhere, but would assume to be sub-500). I believe the design of this greater scaling was due to the warrior class having so many innate threat abilities and paladins having essentially none, but I cannot confirm what the guys at Blizzard were thinking.

Edit:
Looks like I'm too slow. Heh.

[jere]

Source: Mawini To my knowledge, all tanks do not get the same multiplier in the end. RF actually has 2 components. Similar to defensive stance's 1.495 multiplier (with defiance), RF has a base threat multiplier of 1.429. This applies to white damage and any school magic damage done by the paladin. Additionally, there is a 1.9 threat multiplier on holy damage alone. These total to a 2.717 threat multiplier for holy damage. Hence the significant difference in threat output from the 'shield slam' from each class, even when factoring in shield slam's innate threat value (which I could find documented nowhere, but would assume to be sub-500). I believe the design of this greater scaling was due to the warrior class having so many innate threat abilities and paladins having essentially none, but I cannot confirm what the guys at Blizzard were thinking. Edit: Looks like I'm too slow. Heh.

Warriors also get the 1.43 baked in salv multiplier as well, making their multiplier around 2.0735x rather than 1.495. Also, remember that the 2.717x multiplier for paladins only applies to our holy damage portion. Our melee damage is a significant chunk of our DPS, but because it doesn't get the full RF benefit, the threat for melee is much smaller in comparison to the rest of our threat sources. The warrior stance multiplier applies to all warrior threat equally and warriors still have some baked in innate threat values (which paladins don't typically). I.E. the values work out pretty close in the wash.

Check the warrior threat guide for more info:
WoW 3.0 Threat Values

[Mawini]

Thanks, that's why I read this site.

[Satorri]

And Frost Pres for DK's is a solid 2.0735 multiplier the same as Warriors, applied to all threat (healing included, though our healing is the standard half-threat divided among all enemies).

DK Threat Values can be found here

Pally healing threat gets a quarter modifier?

[Maelstrom]

Source: Satorri Pally healing threat gets a quarter modifier?

To stop wacky situations where you could hold aggro by standing still and healing yourself ("PLATE AND HEALS, WTF"). Although it doesn't seem enormously feasible now, it's more of an old-world solution to an old-world problem .

[jere]

Source: Satorri Pally healing threat gets a quarter modifier?

Yep (not considering RF that is). It's been that way since forever (original beta maybe? been so long ago that I cannot remember now).

[Jaydn]

Heyho, you've forgotten the Glyph of Salvation

Glyph of Salvation - Item - World of Warcraft

It's been used from a lot of progress-paladins for another CD. The lost thread isn't a big problem with a cancelaura-macro or the bigger threat-generation

Greetings

[Satorri]

First page Jaydn, first massive post in the discussion on Pally mechanics. =)

And thank you Maelstrom and Jere, you learn something new every day! It makes sense when you think about it, especially in old world content/spells/gear. Now it's a little stickier to try to heal tank, particularly since avoidance has become as big a feature as it is, and you cannot avoid while casting (SO glad they took the cast time off Avenger's Shield).

[DwayneDibley]

A very interesting thread (although I must admit to have not reading it all word for word).

You don't seme to highlight the fact that all classes have a de-haste ability, yet only warriors and druid have an attack power debuff. Paladins will be getting an AP debuff in 3.2, but DK's are being left out in the cold on this one.

Another thing when comparing CD's is the cost of using them. Most DK CD's have a runic power or rune cost for using, which can mean you can't always pop one when you want to, or you need to be conservative with your resources. If memory serves me correctly, warriors for example have no resource requirements on their cooldowns (ie. 20 rage for last stand/shield wall).

Your comparisons are very interesting, but I bet the one most people would want to see is a comparison of EH of the 6 classes in T8 loot after the 3.2 patch. This could include the guaranteed reductions from blocking factored into the calculation.

[GravityDK]

Hell of a read, I'm about half-way through, but quite useful. I learned about warriors (never played one).

Interesting you decided to generalise Unholy tanks into 'avoidance' tank. Obviously that's because their big cooldown gains so much from avoidance, rather than them having any more to begin with (because Frost DKs have more).

[Satorri]

There are two slightly weird things that I didn't really come to realize until I started digging in to it:

1.) It's a fine distinction, but Bone Shield is not actually improved by avoidance. It's duration is prolonged, but it will not actually take any more hits. The increase in survival you get from the extra avoidance, is just from the avoidance itself. In general, Bone Shield is strongest when you are taking multiple sources of damage in very short time spans (i.e. trash or multiple source stacked hits like Frozen Blows).

2.) Frost gets more avoidance, but avoidance actually reduces the effectiveness of Unbreakable Armor. Again, the avoidance is giving you more survival value than you lose on the CD, but it's something to consider if you are a Frost tank stacking avoidance, or if you are in the habit of popping an avoidance trinket-effect when you use UA.


I call Unholy knights avoidance tanks, of course, as you said, not because they have more, but because they of all DK's want to be hit the least. They don't have Frost's shear passive mitigation, nor Blood's potent heal reactions to damage, they only have their Shield that will soak a limited number of hits, then they are as squishy as they come. More avoidance does mean you have a longer window where Bone Shield will be up when it matters, and will limit the windows where it just isn't available.

[Leechkin]

Source: Satorri 1.) It's a fine distinction, but Bone Shield is not actually improved by avoidance. It's duration is prolonged, but it will not actually take any more hits. The increase in survival you get from the extra avoidance, is just from the avoidance itself. In general, Bone Shield is strongest when you are taking multiple sources of damage in very short time spans (i.e. trash or multiple source stacked hits like Frozen Blows).

This is correct, but only a limited view of the strength of bone shield. An avoidance value of 60% will almost always result in actual avoidance of 60%, but it doesn't determine when you are avoiding. The strength in bone armor is that none of its mitigation is wasted in avoidance. While this might not seem like much, I had one instance of tanking thorim where I avoided every attack for the duration of my vampiric embrace. My avoidance for the whole fight was not any higher than normal, I just got extremely unlucky (lucky?). This is an extreme, but it highlights how bone shield retains its value as avoidance increases while other CD's diminish in value.

[Jaydn]

Source: Satorri First page Jaydn, first massive post in the discussion on Pally mechanics. =)

Ah sorry, i've forgot: its missing in the summary in post #2.

You just say: "They can Hand of Salvation to reduce friendlies' threat on a 2 min CD" but it's a normal tanking cooldown, like divine protection or LoH

[Satorri]

Well, it's not quite like them, not everyone takes it, that section is for baseline stuff everyone has by default. It does have a drawback for use. It does merit mention of course, which it gets. =)

[GravityDK]

Source: Leechkin This is an extreme, but it highlights how bone shield retains its value as avoidance increases while other CD's diminish in value.

Yeah, that's a good one-liner on it.

[Jaydn]

Source: Satorri Well, it's not quite like them, not everyone takes it, that section is for baseline stuff everyone has by default. It does have a drawback for use. It does merit mention of course, which it gets. =)

Hum, not one tankadin i know has improved lay on hands, but i think it's ok how it is. Patch 3.2 will chance a lot.

But your work is great, thank you

[Satorri]

bumping to keep data handy