[Vlad]

Source: Satorri Vlad, the formula here is: Final armor = [Armor from gear that has an armor weight, i.e. Plate x 1.15 (toughness) x 1.60 (/cry Frost Pres)] + (Armor from rings/neck/trinkets/weapons) + (Agility x 2)

Ahh yes racials, I knew I was missing something.
I guess 3k isn't great but it's not the end of the world. It'll mean I'll be about 29-30k armour fully raid buffed, I don't really get to tank atm anyways.

[Satorri]

Of course you're right Jere, but if I put in some parentheses to try to explain it I'd be right. >.> /fumbles with the edit key

And, Nadir, many defensive CDs are on the GCD, and many used to have very long CDs, that doesn't diminish their value, it just limits their use. LoH is a very powerful ability (thus the long CD), and there are few skills that could actually truly have this sort of life saving effect for a tank without giving up threat entirely (also a Pally move). I don't think anyone will argue that it is somehow going to be used in constant rotation, but it is a tool in the arsenal.

I don't think anything you descirbed makes pallies a particularly 'inferior' tank, hard modes in Ulduar will put any tank to the test. If you have any numbers or more descriptive examples to back up your statement though, please do share, that is what this thread is about (actual examples, not unsupported qualifying statements).

[jere]

From a practicality point of view, he is spot on about LoH. The long cooldown makes it not so good for hard mode progression. It becomes more of an emergency type cooldown, rather than one used to combat a particular fight mechanic. Fights like Steelbreaker typically require multiple cooldowns in hardmode, so depending on your raid makeup, that can disconcerning to say the least.

Divine Protection is a better candidate for a predictable cooldown used to tackle hard mode fight mechanics, but it is our only one aside from glyphed HoSalv, which can't really be used as predictably in encounters like Hodir hard mode, where threat matters too.

[Satorri]

Quite so, but thankfully LoH is in your arsenal no matter what so it's foolish not to have it on your bar and pull it out when it really matters. Hodir and Steelbreaker are actually not fights where I'd likely use it, since you're expecting your health to plummet (/cuddle anti-magic shell) and healers are expecting to hit you with their hardest.

[jere]

I don't think anyone was suggesting removing it from our bars. I think the concern is more that we are just saying "it's a cooldown" without really quantifying what kind of cooldown it is used for. In a class comparison style thread we have to be careful to actually compare apples to apples. Otherwise, we start getting a lot of generalized statements/arguements.

[Predakhan]

Source: Satorri Bear bubbles are tricky as they actually proc off of what the bear does for threat, not incoming attacks. That said it's possible to get a range of effect depending on how the bear tanks. I'm assuming Lacerate crits cannot proc the effect, though I'm also assuming the bear is using Lacerate regularly but not spamming it. It was hard to account for Maul/melee swings and Mangle/Swipe. On multi-target pulls I'm assuming Swipe crits on each additional target can increase the proc chance, but on bosses I think my estimate was probably still conservative.

I am pretty sure that right now Savage Defense is proccing with Lacerate crits which is why Bears take primal gore.

[Satorri]

I thought it may be possible, but I kept talking myself out of it because it seemed too good. Can anyone confirm?

[jere]

Darksend might be able to if you are able to snag him. There is probably a thread at EJ on it too somewhere.

[minrog]

The cooldown discussion is probably the most important aspect of the guide with the T8 raiding content. I stumbled upon this guide while searching for ways to survive a Mimiron plasma burst without having any T8 set gear.

We fought him tonight in 10 man Ulduar for a long time and our two tanks were a Paladin and a Warrior. We eventually had the Paladin switch to full time healing (bringing our healers to 4: Resto Druid, Resto Shaman, Holy Priest, Holy Paladin) and I couldn't find a way to live through the 3rd Plasma Burst.

The only advice I was able to find had to do with accumulating a 4 piece set of Tier 8 and getting Hand of Sacrifices. That or getting a Discipline Priest to handhold me with Pain Supression. It's far more likely that I'll be sidelined indefinitely because I'm unable to tank the encounters without begging for outside intervention from specific classes and talent specs. At least my Paladin tank friend can still raid if he's willing to go Holy lol.

The other thing I wanted to add was under your tanking scenarios you failed to mention the steady stream of monsters as a mechanic. Akin to the Brann event in HoL or on Gothik where a new monster comes into range every half second or so for 2 to 5 minutes. The cooldown on TC and Shockwave mean 2/3 or more of the mobs have to be hit manually with a single target attack. There is a reason why we took Paladin OT's to Mount Hyjal to kill the trash waves in there. While they made it better by not including many encounters that use it the flaws in the tanking haven't been fixed for the Warriors yet and all it takes is an entire Raid Dungeon based around 1 second pulse aoe tanking for it to surface again.

[Nicki]

Lay on hands isn't a cooldown one can rely upon, I think you think more of it then there is to think of it.

1. Its on the GCD meaning chances are its not always the easiest thing to use in a pinch.
2. Healers heals nullify the effect almost always
3. Most times when lay on hands saves you you outgear the content.
4. In most cases where cooldowns are useful, lay on hands is really ineffective. This is due to the nature of these specifics (Sarth breath one shots tank, Vezax darkness) These hit for too much for a single even well times 40k heal to save the day.

I just think some realism is needed LoH isn't that good and really with holy paladins being more or less able to spam 10k heals every 1.7~ seconds. At best you look at getting a single 100% effective heal but critting needn't have a >.> next to it. After all of TBC and most of wrath it remains my least used cooldown for tanks (when not holy as holy I use it on tanks because of the improved talent and the fact it returns mana to me with the glyph etc. or im oom). I am more likely to use LoH to give mana to a caster than to save a tank. Its a once in a blue moon cooldown that you may find useful once in a while...

While they made it better by not including many encounters that use it the flaws in the tanking haven't been fixed for the Warriors yet and all it takes is an entire Raid Dungeon based around 1 second pulse aoe tanking for it to surface again.

It wasn't one second pulse that made warrior tanking hard before 3.0. It was not being able to hit 12 things. Warriors are incredibly good at dealing with instant spawn tanking a place where paladins struggle due to the tick nature of consecration.

All you have to ask yourself is could you tank hyjal after 3.0? Chances are you could and could do it with flying colours. Warrior AoE tanking may not be perfect but i'd say its not the nature of mobs that need to be tanked that are the flaw, its the scaling. When all warriors got shockwave and thunderclap at 70 (the new improved versions) we completely destroyed paladin tanking. Shattered halls turned into a cake walk. If anything is wrong its the scaling not the dungeon design. In paladins case they can be completely ruined by mobs running too fast over consecration and casters. As a warrior you have tools to combat these situations.

Noteably the only thing that would make an encounter problematic for warrior tanking would be 4 waves of adds spawning 2 seconds apart. Prehaps theres room for a floor after effect from shockwave or thunderclap just to avoid this problem.

[Satorri]

I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish. No one is questioning the limitations of Lay on Hands, but that doesn't change the fact that it IS a CD that Protadins have at their disposal which *may* save their lives. That simple. That said it is the one tanking ability that will reset your health to full, period. That may not mean as much depending on when you use it, but it is unique and very powerful, there is a reason there are the limitations to its use that there are.

You could say the same thing of a great many other tanking abilities from all 4 classes, you only suffer from under-valuing it to the point of never using it, should you make that mistake.

The argument that tanks providing heals in any form is 'wasted' because that's the healers' job is just plain foolish, short-sighted, and ignorant. Ask your healers if it's a bad thing if you require less healing.

The joke about it critting is, if you're using it on yourself, it will restore your full life, critting is comical because it will only translate into 50% overhealing at least (more since you'd have to have no life), and as a prot pally the chances of you using it on someone with less health than you is slim unless you're with a tank who stacks more health. Lighten up and smile a little. =P

[Esch]

Source: Satorri I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish. No one is questioning the limitations of Lay on Hands, but that doesn't change the fact that it IS a CD that Protadins have at their disposal which *may* save their lives. That simple. That said it is the one tanking ability that will reset your health to full, period. That may not mean as much depending on when you use it, but it is unique and very powerful, there is a reason there are the limitations to its use that there are.

I think the point he's trying to make is while LoH is a solid ability, the cooldown, net effect and 'after damage' aspect doesn't compare with a mitigation talent. Like Rune Tap, it's useless if you died from the spike damage, and preemptively using it won't affect the mitigation of an infinitely large hit.

[Raddik]

Source: Satorri My DS's (talented from Blood is the important part) heal me for 7300 in raid buffs.

My mistake here, I was comparing Blood's DS with Unholy's DS and in fact, they are the same! Unholy=3*5% = 15% Blood=2*5%+50% = 15%

About your 7.300 heals... You must have 48.670 health to have those impressive Death Strike heals O_O... This is with Vampiric Blood up right?

[slackhoid]

Source: Raddik My mistake here, I was comparing Blood's DS with Unholy's DS and in fact, they are the same! Unholy=3*5% = 15% Blood=2*5%+50% = 15% About your 7.300 heals... You must have 48.670 health to have those impressive Death Strike heals O_O... This is with Vampiric Blood up right?

It does not need to be with Vampiric Blood. The biggest DS Heals I've seen seen as Unholy tank is around 6700. My ~44K raid buffed is nothing spectacular and it is by no means gemmed/enchanted for max health, I actually just swapped away some stam gems for expertize) Blood gets more stam buff from talents, so 7300 DS heal is quite achievable in good gear without Vampiric blood.

Talk about big heals; as unholy I have perma-pet with AOE resist; Death Pact heals me nearly 18k and pet is quite nicely available even in AOE heavy encounters. This has saved me just countless times; healers can go out of range/LOS occasinally (dodging Molgein runes or LOS-issues during Ayriya fear are perfect examples such situations) specially while we are just learning the encounters.

Source: Satorri The argument that tanks providing heals in any form is 'wasted' because that's the healers' job is just plain foolish, short-sighted, and ignorant. Ask your healers if it's a bad thing if you require less healing.

Could not agree more. My healers love me because they know I can and will make every effort to help them (would be very stupid of me not to for example during tantrums or Frozen blows). Many encounters in Ulduar require lot of raid healing and why not help healers to focus other players too. This true more than ever when your group does not outgear or even undergear the encounter.

We run 10-mans only with very small guild and almost always without optimal raid composition and having everyone alive is usually what beats enrage timers ja gives us progress.

[Satorri]

Source: Raddik My mistake here, I was comparing Blood's DS with Unholy's DS and in fact, they are the same! Unholy=3*5% = 15% Blood=2*5%+50% = 15% About your 7.300 heals... You must have 48.670 health to have those impressive Death Strike heals O_O... This is with Vampiric Blood up right?

Blood tank =) I stack heavy heavy health, I've been working hard on that. It really plays well with the mechanics. Larger span for Blood-gorged damage buff, great big DS, Rune Tap, and Mark of Blood heals, and (if I had it) bigger range for Will of the Necropolis. Playing with the WoWhead I should have over 50k raid buffed before Vamp Blood once I have a more complete set of Conquerors level gear!

[Nadir_]

I guess what irks me the most (of course not in this thread) is that I've heard many other tank classes claim that LoH is Paladin's "Last Stand." It's a 15 minute glyphed CD that does nothing to increase our survivability versus the most dangerous tank killing moves in hard mode encounters - ie. things that hit higher than our raid buffed health.

I'd trade the ability to use LoH for Last Stand in a heart beat. I don't think many Warriors, DKs, or Bears would say the same thing in reverse.

[Honorshammer]

Source: Satorri I did give the pally a bit of an edge the others didn't have in allowing a couple buffs like BoSanc and Devo Aura, but a prot pally won't likely be without that.

I think this decision will lead to incorrect conclusion. The BoSanct damage reduction is provided by other classes (Priest's Renewed Hope) and Devo can be applied by a Paladin of any stripe (tell you don't have at least 1 Paladin in your 25 man raid).

This was the same mistake the Deveopers made in Beta and why we had to fight so hard for the additional 3% DR on Shield of the Templar. They were comparing a Tankadin with BoSanct to a Warrior without, but as soon as you pair that Warrior with a Paladin to give him Sanct, it's no longer a valid comparison.

[Honorshammer]

Lay on Hands can be a lifesaver, but it's cooldown is so long you really have to think for a second about whether or not your are going to use it, and sometimes that delay will get you killed.

I also can't count the number of times I've used my Lay On Hands and then had a 15k Holy Light bomb from our Paladin healer land.

[serrasin]

I may have missed it, but I did not read any mention of Divine Sacrifice. While it may not be relevant to main tanking a boss, it is nonetheless a valuable utility for protecting the raid and felt that it might be worthwhile to give it some attention.

[Satorri]

The discussion above was just about baseline tanking tools. I mentioned Div Sacrifice for the sake of protecting the group, but not for protecting the tank. Tank teams can be very powerful if you use tools like that well (I use my Mark of Blood to support my co-tanks).

And Honor, I usually don't hesitate when I use LoH. Sometimes that means I don't get the biggest effect I could, but I don't feel bad about it either. =) A tool not used is truly a waste of an asset.

I had another idea for a consideration to equivocate about, but I'm drawing a blank at the moment.

One thing that did occur to me last night was talking shop with my warrior friend before we did Ignis. Despite my armor nerf (/cry they chopped 2.5k armor off =( ), I was sitting at 31k armor (next time I'll have MORE I got the super armor pants from Kolo25), a full 2.5k above him. And we had a laugh, I said, "but you have shield block!" to which he said, yeah but that doesn't help so much against giant boss swings, and I thought to myself, "self," I says, "the armor difference is a tiny %, what block value/rate would he have to have, based on boss swing size of course, to match my % from the little extra armor?"

So, here's the base numbers:
My armor = 31,000 (67.1%)
His armor = 28,500 (65.2%)

*The difference is 1.9% reduction in physical damage*
Pulling our 3 bosses above:
25k every 1.2 sec, 50k every 2.4 sec, 75k every 3.6 sec

DK taken per swing = 8225 (A), 16450 (B), 24675 (C)
Warrior non-block per swing = 8700 (A), 17400 (B), 26100 (C)

So the difference per swing is 475 (A), 950 (B), 1425 (C)

Taking his ~30% block chance and 30% chance for the block to crit, that means the block value needed would be: deltaswing = 0.30 x (0.3 x 2 x B + 0.7 x B) + 0.70 x 0

or B = 2.564 x delta swing, where B = base block value

to make up the difference. So plugging that in:
Boss A = 1218
Boss B = 2436
Boss C = 3654

So, against the boss swinging very quickly the block value to bridge the gap is very achievable, but the difference is beyond reasonable achievement for the average swing or way beyond for the slow swinging boss. *IF you were relying on block alone to bridge the armor gap.* Note: this does not account for Shield Block which will pull the average block value up distinctly if it is used heavily.

The other aspect that shield bearers and Blizz are not so fond of, is that you are (like avoidance used to be seen) relying on a random chance, so some swings will hit more softly and some will hit harder. Though, people who parrot GC's extreme example of 50% of the swing damage are misusing his hyperbole.

I'll be interested to see how they change blocking as a mechanic, I'm sure it will be interesting now that we know they're digging into it. I've generally been quite happy with Blizz's designs when they bring their more current system-minded turn at things.