[GravityDK]

fyi I'm fairly sure the new DK 'gargoyle' runeforge is not subject to DR.

[Feanorr]

Great summary.

I can add that the miss cap is superior to 15% cause I have been at more than 15% of miss on some fight (with frigid breadplate + the night elf racial).

Hum well, assuming that this talent and racial are subject to DR


Feanorr


PS: I am refering to WowWebStats miss chance.

[Ragefury]

Faenorr, the reason why your "being missed" goes tru roof on some fights would be the delicious Lichborne

[Hyku]

I'm all new to this as I was a holy priest for the greater part of my wow life. I rolled an orc DK for the sole purpose of tanking. Being new to this avoidance thing I have 2 questions when it comes to socketing my items.

1) it seems, when reading this that parry isn't worth it, so should I only socket my items with dodge and stam and avoid parry (when gemming for avoidance that is)

2) if I reach the 540 crit immunity, is it worthy to gem for defense/dodge or shouldn't I go to parry as well since defense don't give as much parry as a true parry rating gem?

Thanks for your help

[Jearie]

Source: Hyku I'm all new to this as I was a holy priest for the greater part of my wow life. I rolled an orc DK for the sole purpose of tanking. Being new to this avoidance thing I have 2 questions when it comes to socketing my items. 1) it seems, when reading this that parry isn't worth it, so should I only socket my items with dodge and stam and avoid parry (when gemming for avoidance that is) 2) if I reach the 540 crit immunity, is it worthy to gem for defense/dodge or shouldn't I go to parry as well since defense don't give as much parry as a true parry rating gem? Thanks for your help

As best that I can tell, it would be best to gem for dodge/stamina, using Solid Sky Sapphires, Regal Twilight Opals and (Dodge) Autumn's Glows for blue, red, and yellow sockets where the bonus is truly worth shooting for (imo stamina bonuses). If I am wrong, someone feel free to correct me.

[Papachopchop]

Ok, I give up... I have tried and tried to figure out this language of DR and the more I look into it, the more it begins to feel like I am in a country where no one speaks my language.

All I know it that I'm a def capped paladin with %21.06 dodge, 16.25% parry, and because of my talents and procs, have between a 15.15-75.15% block rating. I have a few people in my guild that I test some things out and duel them. I duel'd a titan fury warrior and as long as I spammed the holy shield, and my Sacred Shield abilties, I kill his 18K HP by auto-attacking between blocks and dodges faster than he can take down my 25K health by spamming every talent he can get his hands on. So I have to be doing something right....

Another thing I have started some trials out with... last time we duel'd, I hit my holy shield and turned completely around (Which from what I heard, doesn't allow you to block) but my avoidance and dmg I took at this point barely went up at all... I would have done further testing but we were beginning to attract attention...

As for all this other mystic language of the ancients (DR folumas)... If you want to know if you are good at blocking damage, ask the healer at the end of a heroic... I changed one of my stats from shield block to a high dodge one day and because the healer knew me and been with me before.... finally stopped and said, "I'm mana cashing on you every fight, what's the deal?"... Thinking the dodge and parry were complete damage reduction and blocks only drop it by your block value, I thought that dodge would be better.... however for a protection paladin, the block rating trinket serves me 4x better than the other dodge trinket...

now I just wish I still had those 40 emblems... I'd be buying that lvl 80 t7a chestpiece. =P

[Ari]

Dodge and parry may be complete avoidance, but they also convert very poorly into chance to avoid compared to block rating. Block stats are a way to get more reliable mitigation without just pushing armour.

As for DR- it stands for diminishing returns and it's just a mechanic to make sure you don't always want dodge and nothing else on your gear. It means you get a little less chance to dodge per point of dodge rating as you add more dodge rating.

[frim]

Source: Papachopchop Ok, I give up... I have tried and tried to figure out this language of DR and the more I look into it, the more it begins to feel like I am in a country where no one speaks my language. All I know it that I'm a def capped paladin with %21.06 dodge, 16.25% parry, and because of my talents and procs, have between a 15.15-75.15% block rating. I have a few people in my guild that I test some things out and duel them. I duel'd a titan fury warrior and as long as I spammed the holy shield, and my Sacred Shield abilties, I kill his 18K HP by auto-attacking between blocks and dodges faster than he can take down my 25K health by spamming every talent he can get his hands on. So I have to be doing something right.... Another thing I have started some trials out with... last time we duel'd, I hit my holy shield and turned completely around (Which from what I heard, doesn't allow you to block) but my avoidance and dmg I took at this point barely went up at all... I would have done further testing but we were beginning to attract attention... As for all this other mystic language of the ancients (DR folumas)... If you want to know if you are good at blocking damage, ask the healer at the end of a heroic... I changed one of my stats from shield block to a high dodge one day and because the healer knew me and been with me before.... finally stopped and said, "I'm mana cashing on you every fight, what's the deal?"... Thinking the dodge and parry were complete damage reduction and blocks only drop it by your block value, I thought that dodge would be better.... however for a protection paladin, the block rating trinket serves me 4x better than the other dodge trinket... now I just wish I still had those 40 emblems... I'd be buying that lvl 80 t7a chestpiece. =P

There are a few other threads floating around comparing pure avoidance to block value, and it seems like the general consensus is that for things hitting you that are ~3k or less, block value is better and for things that hit you ~3k or more, avoidance/armor is better (ive seen this 3k around in both a Block v. Avoidance and a Block v. Armor thread).

So unless your TG warrior friend is hitting for 30k unmitigated per strike, he's not a very good approximation to a raid boss

[GravityDK]

Source: Roana Note that avoidance values do not include base dodge, parry, miss, or bonuses from talents. [/code]

I just realised that this probably distorts the ratios a bit, particularly for a DK.
Their high parry from strength (oh then including blade barrier) probably makes 'parry' stat even less desirable.

I wonder how the recommended ratios would pan out if you had factored in talented dodge, for example.

[Hypatia]

Actually, talented avoidance doesn't matter, in terms of raw avoidance: 5% dodge from talents plus 45% combined rated avoidance makes those 45% combined more powerful than it would otherwise be, but it doesn't change the relative strengths of different avoidances to minimize DR. If you have the optimal mix of avoidances to get to x%, then add 10% from talents, you now have the optimal mix to get to x+10% given those talents. And that's why the avoidance talents are so tasty: you add multiple percentage points of avoidance on the very very cheap, which increases the effectiveness of the avoidance you're getting from everything else.

(Note: I'm not sure how the parry/strength conversion works for DR, so I'm just talking about the raw n% dodge/parry type talents, which are known to be completely outside DR.)

[GravityDK]

Source: Hypatia (Note:...I'm just talking about the raw n% dodge/parry type talents, which are known to be completely outside DR.)

Good point. Thanks.
As for STR -> Parry, I suspect it probably is subject to DR but do not know for sure. It's about 1% parry from 200 STR iirc.

[Steeltusk]

Hey guys and girls, Im new here and I would like you to clarify if Im wrong or right.

Im currently 544 def which is 710 defense rating.
My dodge rat. is 185 which gives me 20.01% dodge (before DR's),
my parry rat. is 199 which is 18.42% parry.(before DR's too)

It is 1104 points of rating to distribute.

So if I would aim for pure avoidance I should have something like that:

700 defense rat., 350 dodge rating and 54 parry rating?

Let's say I would have 400 dodge rat. and 700 def. rat. Should I go for around +100 defense rating then?

Thanks for any help

[Rasoui]

Source: Steeltusk Im currently 544 def which is 710 defense rating. My dodge rat. is 185 which gives me 20.01% dodge (before DR's), my parry rat. is 199 which is 18.42% parry.(before DR's too) It is 1104 points of rating to distribute. So if I would aim for pure avoidance I should have something like that: 700 defense rat., 350 dodge rating and 54 parry rating? Let's say I would have 400 dodge rat. and 700 def. rat. Should I go for around +100 defense rating then?

I sit comfortably when I am at least 4-5 defense "skill" points over cap, so I would recommend staying at around 710 defense rating or above.

As far as your pure avoidance stats, I wouldn't ignore parry too much, yes it isn't as important as dodge per say, but I still see a fair amount of attacks parried. I personally like parry at at least 18%

Dodge, as well as block, are my 2 favorite avoidance stats...basically every red and blue socket I have I throw a dodge/stam gem into.

When I first hit 80 and started tanking I socketed basically everything with exp/stam because not only do you loose TPS when you are dodged/parried, you increase the mobs attack speed as well, causing yourself more dmg. But now im sitting at 31 exp (25 + 6 from prot tree) with only 2 exp/stam gems.

One thing I am slightly confused about, at least for warriors, is what stat is more important, dodge or block...Blizz has made it so warriors now have 10 seconds per 40 (with talent) to block attacks instead of just blocking 2 in a row, so if a fight lasts for 6 minutes, that means you have 4.5 minutes of no garenteed blockage if shield block is continueosly spammed. but you also have 6 full minutes to potentually dodge. Any ideas or preferences?

[GravityDK]

Source: Roana A lot therefore depends on whether the 4% parry count against diminishing returns or not, since there's no parry rating on the rune, only an actual parry percentage. Even if so, 25 defense equal 3% avoidance before diminishing returns, which is less than 4% avoidance from parry, so it's not clear-cut which provides more avoidance (though, of course, +2% stamina is +2% stamina).

I recently tested this and am confident that both swordshattering's 4% and the gargoyle's 3% from its defence skill are both exempt from diminishing returns.

[Vehemens]

Source: Satorri For Warriors, Paladins, and Death Knights: Miss diminishes to (variable?) Dodge diminishes to 88% Parry diminishes to 47% As such you get the more % improvement from dodge rating than parry rating, point for point (and in itemization levels). It appears to make parry rating a "why would you ever?" What I'm wondering is, parry from a boss has a special function, does it offer the same or something similar to us? If so that would explain why parry gets the short end. Otherwise, maybe it is to specifically limit the Death Knight bonus from strength? Since they won't expect anyone to add more parry than is already on their gear?

are those hard figures? if so do you mean the i can crank it up to 88% dodge before i start seeing DR's? sorry for the stupid questions, as i am new to crunching the numbers this way

[Niss]

Source: Vehemens are those hard figures? if so do you mean the i can crank it up to 88% dodge before i start seeing DR's? sorry for the stupid questions, as i am new to crunching the numbers this way

This is something I feel I have misunderstood as well. Given this practical example:

If I have 800 defense rating, 400 dodge rating, 0 parry rating:

I have an upgrade choice of either 30 parry rating or 30 dodge rating. I should still take dodge rating to maximize avoidance, because dodge rating is not subject to diminishing returns until something like 3400 rating (88%)?

[Kazeyonoma]

no no no, you misunderstand, when we say they diminish TOWARDS 88% and 47% it means that the curve diverges to infinity as you get closer and closer toward these totals.

you get hit by DRs the moment you get any bit of avoidance rating.

Imagine a curve if you will that curves steeper and steeper as you get close to 88 on the x axis. that basically is how this works, it takes Y rating to get this % avoidance (X). You'll see that around 5-10% they look pretty close, 5% = 100 rating for example (completely made up okay?) 6% = 205 rating (so you see here that going from 5% to 6% costed 105 rating that's 5 extra rating just to get 1% more when at 5% it was only 100)
now imagine if you will, that as you increase this X% the rating starts scaling faster and faster. so by the time you're at say... 25% you need 2800 rating and to get to 26% you need 3000 rating. Now it costs 200 rating to get 1%. long ways from 100 rating when you were at 5%.

Now imagine Parry where it steeps faster because the Diminishing Maximum diverges to infinity at 47% this means:

5% 100 rating
6% 120 rating
...
25% 5000 rating
26% 5500 rating

etc etc.

these numbers are all madeup but it's meant to illustrate HOW they diminish.

[Niss]

Much clearer, thank you. And now I shamelessly ask without first searching, has anyone developed these curves yet, or tried to approximate them?

Edit: I searched. Thanks again for the clarification.

[Tarrke]

Source: GravityDK Good point. Thanks. As for STR -> Parry, I suspect it probably is subject to DR but do not know for sure. It's about 1% parry from 200 STR iirc.

The force to parry IS subject to DR. It is quite simple to see as you just convert 25% of your strenght to parry rating, and ratings are subject to DR.

May be test if you like by unequipping a str item with no parry on it, and calcul them what it should give you as parry % and what it really gives you.

[Onedge]

K, guys i got something ive been wanting to test myself and im not entirely sure it is a correct way of using avoidances but was an experiment to say the least. Now i see alot of talk abut dodge and parry... but none about Block percentage and block value? whats the deal? now with a few sets that ive aquired from numberous raids ive come to a point to where i have 24% dodge/20% parry/ and exactly 39.25% block with unbuffed stats blocking 1440 damage every block. *Block set.. 1 of 4 gear sets i have.*

now like there was someone mentioning about soak tanking hatefuls from 25 man patchwork, what would you think of having those stats on top of 30k+ health unbuffed? would that have a huge effect on DR's? or be a viable way to have top mitigation for the fight to make life easier on the healers? i myself still have yet to test this myself, but from my experiences in BC with high block rating and value, it was boring for the healers cause of the amount of healing they didnt have to do lol. As or Wotlk's release, would you say this style of mitigation is still highly useful or completely trash?