[jere]

Source: Unrak Thanks for these simple easy to understand values Could anyone shed any light on similar values for Druid tanks? Paladin Tanks? Death Knights? Thanks in advance

Paladin tanks will be the same as warriors roughly

[Roana]

Source: Unrak Could anyone shed any light on similar values for Druid tanks? Paladin Tanks? Death Knights?

Death knights and paladins have the same values for diminishing returns as warriors. For druids, getting defense and parry rating should be pretty pointless to begin with.

[Togrin]

Thank you for the work, really appreciated. What I conclude from your results is that you can safely say to aim for a 2:1 no matter what the miss_cap. That is because you get also some mitigation (and some rage too) from increased block chance in trade of practically no avoidance. What a coincidence that I have exactly 2:1 on my ratings by chance.

[Alrinea]

Maintankadin :: View topic - Defense or Dodge - Here are the graphs
you may want to try that spreadsheet for easy to use item comparisons

[Armstrong]

Very nice breakdown Roana, thanks for putting this post together.

[Sacrilicious]

Source: Kazeyonoma yes, parry offers the same function to players, it increases our next white swing by up to 40% depending on when the parry occurs in our swing timer. But for pure avoidance purposes, parry because of it's higher cost AND faster diminishing returns is very much so a "why would you ever" stat.

I'm a DK and I'm starting to wonder if it's worth using the 25 defense and 2% stam runeword or the 4% parry runeword.

From what I've been reading, parry isn't meant to be dealt with.

[Roana]

Source: Sacrilicious I'm a DK and I'm starting to wonder if it's worth using the 25 defense and 2% stam runeword or the 4% parry runeword.

Note that the defense > parry estimate is entirely predicated on the assumption that you have a choice between getting an equal rating of either. Parry loses only because the rating -> parry conversion is comparatively bad AND because parry has worse diminishing returns.

A lot therefore depends on whether the 4% parry count against diminishing returns or not, since there's no parry rating on the rune, only an actual parry percentage. Even if so, 25 defense equal 3% avoidance before diminishing returns, which is less than 4% avoidance from parry, so it's not clear-cut which provides more avoidance (though, of course, +2% stamina is +2% stamina).

In short, I'd recommend calculating the actual benefit you'd get from either rune and then base your decision on that.

[Sacrilicious]

Thanks! I think I'll go with Gargoyle since it offers 3% avoidance (1% miss 1% dodge 1% parry, which are individually affected by diminishing returns) and the lovely 2% stam.

[Kiyona]

Thank you for this article, it was very informative. I do however have one comment about the "general guidelines" you give. When you say "Avoid parry rating" you make a mistake in not factoring in the way item budgets are handled by blizz.

Item budgets are spent using the power to 3/2 (Price^3/2 = rating^3/2+rating^3/2...)

This makes parry a viable stat much faster than what your calculations show, if its on an item that also has dodge rating.

So basically: Avoid parry unless its on an item that also has dodge on it

[Roana]

Source: Kiyona Thank you for this article, it was very informative. I do however have one comment about the "general guidelines" you give. When you say "Avoid parry rating" you make a mistake in not factoring in the way item budgets are handled by blizz.

No, I don't make a mistake here. I am very much aware of the itemization mechanic. What it comes down to is that if you have an item with N+1 stats instead of N stats, the formula generally gives you more rating points. It does not make parry more valuable in comparison: If you have an item with defense and dodge rating, for example (such as Hammer of Quiet Mourning - Item - World of Warcraft), compared to a similar item with defense and parry rating (such as Blade of the Empty Void - Item - World of Warcraft), you're generally better off with the former if you wish to maximize your avoidance.

If you have an item with more avoidance stats than another (and thus, more avoidance rating to go around), this will be a case where the rule that the item is clearly superior overall applies. It is not really different from a situation where one item gives you hit rating instead of parry rating; while hit rating may be desirable on its own, the one with parry rating will obviously give you higher avoidance. It does not make parry more valuable in comparison, it gives you more total avoidance rating points.

[Duriensbane]

Source: Kazeyonoma Just realized you ask for 25man naxx, I think if you have around 25k unbuffed hp and around 22k armor you'll be set, avoidance will PROBABLY go up to around 50% total before DRs (closer to what 45% after DR?). The only thing that you'll REALLY need to ramp up your gear for is 25 man patchwerk offtank duties. I've heard you really need to try to strive for close to 30k unbuffed HP just to survive his hateful strikes.

Im not quite sure if 30k is really needed, im currently running between 28k and 29k unbuffed and i OT 25man patchwerk all the time, with roughly 25% unbuffed dodge and 20% parry the only reason i have a chance at dying is when the healers get lazy and slow healing. Current record, 9 consecutive parry/dodge hatefuls.

I will say for lesser geared tanks stacking as much stam if avoidance is not availible. Soaking hits is easier then crunching dodge or parry. Agi/40 stam food w/ 650 flask is best way to go. And using a fury warr for commanding may make the differance. Just remember that in the odd chance that you do die and should happen to get a brez just remember that patchwerk gives hatefuls to highest threat/hp so if your extreamly low on the threat table your gonna be the last melee standing.

[OnourisofRavencrest]

Source: Duriensbane Im not quite sure if 30k is really needed, im currently running between 28k and 29k unbuffed and i OT 25man patchwerk all the time.

The first time I did patchwerk I don't think any of us tanks had more than 24-26k unbuffed and all our avoidance was absolute crap but we survived. Credit more to the healers than anything else but it does go to show that it's possible at much lower gear levels than any that would provide 30k unbuffed.

[Parah]

Source: Kazeyonoma yes, parry offers the same function to players, it increases our next white swing by up to 40% depending on when the parry occurs in our swing timer. But for pure avoidance purposes, parry because of it's higher cost AND faster diminishing returns is very much so a "why would you ever" stat.

Though I try to avoid parry when I can, there are definetly some nice items that Blizz put out there to try and make us take it. I'm thinking of the Helm of Vital Protection and the Ablative Chitin Girdle in particular at the moment.

[Bran]

Just want to clarify my interpretation of this: this is looking at the most efficient way to increase avoidance. The optimal route is a mix of def and dodge rating, however, using purely def rating, even beyond the uncrittable level, is very nearly as good. Am I reading the chart right?

Also, for the total rating in the left column, is that the total rating I would see by looking at the defense and dodge tooltips, or is that for anything above and beyond uncrittable?

Either way, thanks so much for this kind of work. (once I'm sure I understand it, lol) It will really give me something to shoot for instead of broadly looking at a piece and trying to decide if it looks like something I want to use or not.

[Roana]

Source: Bran Just want to clarify my interpretation of this: this is looking at the most efficient way to increase avoidance. The optimal route is a mix of def and dodge rating, however, using purely def rating, even beyond the uncrittable level, is very nearly as good. Am I reading the chart right?

Pretty much. It is really hard to screw up your avoidance, unless you totally overstock on dodge or parry. The curve is very flat close to the optimum values. That, of course, also means that if an item gives you more rating points than another item, the item with the additional rating points will generally be better, even if they are invested in parry rating.

Also, for the total rating in the left column, is that the total rating I would see by looking at the defense and dodge tooltips, or is that for anything above and beyond uncrittable?

That's the total rating amount for defense + dodge + parry combined, including the defense part that gets you to uncrittable.

[Ragefury]

As DK im suprised to see parry being evaluated as subpar rating for us. I seen somewhere statement its supposed to be "THE" avoidance stat for DKs, but I couldnt find another reason than Spell Deflect talent in blood tree

Just to clarify question I seen in this thread before, the parry on Rune of Swordshatter isnt object of diminishing returns and its supposed to be generally better then Gargolye if you are defense caped

[Aleonorie]

Thanks for the information.

I am either very tired this morning (2 feet of snow surrounding the car this morning) or I am just not as good at following tables as I used to.

Could you provide a real world example of how to read this table you have generously provided?

I don't know what "miss_cap" means in this reference (sorry if I am being daft, again) nor do I, sadly I must admit, understand any of the other numbers :P

All of that aside, in BC I was an avoidance tank, favoring dodge on my gear over stamina, as most tanks used to do (I gemmed for dodge while everyone else went for stamina, and my healers loved it)..

I am hoping for an answer other than l2math

[Togrin]

The "miss_cap" as I understand it ist the cap of "being missed", which is also an avoidance stat provided through defense rating. Obviously, since it it not known where "being missed" caps out Roana assumed some theoretical values and took the calculations from there.

You can see from the result and Roana's conclusion that it doesn't greatly matter where being missed is capped provided you follow the rules to balance your stats.

Please correct me if I didn't get it right Roana.

[Roana]

Source: Ragefury As DK im suprised to see parry being evaluated as subpar rating for us. I seen somewhere statement its supposed to be "THE" avoidance stat for DKs, but I couldnt find another reason than Spell Deflect talent in blood tree

I suspect that the reason for death knight abilities emphasizing parry is mostly thematic. Death knights defend themselves with their weapons, and parrying is THE weapon-based avoidance skill (heck, you can't even parry when disarmed).

[Roana]

Source: Togrin The "miss_cap" as I understand it ist the cap of "being missed", which is also an avoidance stat provided through defense rating. Obviously, since it it not known where "being missed" caps out Roana assumed some theoretical values and took the calculations from there.

Pretty much. I ran the numbers for any value from 15% to 90% in increments of 15%. While the optimum point does change depending on the precise value (basically, higher caps on miss rates make defense more valuable), the curve is sufficiently flat so that you shouldn't lose more than a fraction of a percentage point of avoidance in most practical gearing situations if you keep in the "safe zone", regardless of what the actual cap on diminishing returns for missing is.