[Kazeyonoma]

I think all of these discussions about alternative not optimal threat rotations need to stop.

This thread is about optimal threat output rotation. If you find devastate + heroic strike macro spam cuts it for your guild, do it, but you don't need to come into this thread talking about your own anecdotal data, the numbers don't lie.

As for the suggestion given by influx, this is technically what i would do in a survivability fight, in cases like that, threat is normally a secondary issue.

[Darmaul]

Source: Kazeyonoma I think all of these discussions about alternative not optimal threat rotations need to stop. This thread is about optimal threat output rotation. If you find devastate + heroic strike macro spam cuts it for your guild, do it, but you don't need to come into this thread talking about your own anecdotal data, the numbers don't lie. As for the suggestion given by influx, this is technically what i would do in a survivability fight, in cases like that, threat is normally a secondary issue.

So, here's my thoughts and if you disagree vehemently you can delete the post.

"Ideal Single Target threat rotation" is not always equal to "Maximum Threat per Second rotation".

As you suggested, in a survivability fight your rotation priorities would include Thunderclap and Demo shout.
Learning a new fight your priorities may be watching your debuffs, raid positioning and changes in environment, calling out timers vs. watching your cooldowns.
In a Hodir Hard mode type fight, your threat rotation is probably explicitly maximum threat per second.

I think these are all valuable rotations that a skilled warrior should have the capability of using and the judgment to know when to use.

[Celandro]

Source: Kazeyonoma I think all of these discussions about alternative not optimal threat rotations need to stop. This thread is about optimal threat output rotation. If you find devastate + heroic strike macro spam cuts it for your guild, do it, but you don't need to come into this thread talking about your own anecdotal data, the numbers don't lie. As for the suggestion given by influx, this is technically what i would do in a survivability fight, in cases like that, threat is normally a secondary issue.

Perhaps you misunderstood me. I was describing ideal threat rotation, including low rage situations assuming my numbers are correct.

Devastate:16.3% AP + damage
Revenge: 121 + damage
Heroic Strike: (dmg-avg melee dmg) + 259
Shield Slam: 770 + dmg

AP: ~4000
Weapon: 2.6 speed furious glad axe (didnt use my titanguard all night)
4 piece T8.5
Gear is pretty much best in slot for non-hard mode 25 man ulduar with the new badge helm and some tank boots
No imp revenge talent

Log 1: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
Whole night (Hodir hard mode and freya +1)

Ability         Damage  Swings     Avg   Threat
Devastate      2232422     806    2770     3422
Heroic Strike  1930756     879    2197     1052
Shield Slam    1057463     275    6448     4615
Melee           459106     327    1404     1404
Revenge         317966     129    2465     2586
Revenge w/talent                           3079

Best attempt Hodir:

Ability         Damage  Swings     Avg     Threat
Devastate       200960      63    3190       3842
Heroic Strike   175148      75    2335        990
Shield Slam     109614      17    6448       7218
Melee            25661      16    1604       1604
Revenge          15927       7    2275       2396
Revenge w/talent                             2851

Log 2: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
Whole night 25 man ToC with a couple heroic tries

Ability         Damage  Swings     Avg     Threat
Devastate      2776013     970    2862       3514
Heroic Strike   984441     399    2467       1100
Shield Slam    1246546     320    3895       4665
Melee          1086569     668    1627       1627
Revenge         219999      80    2750       2871
Revenge w/talent                             3421

Note on hodir that I tend to only shield slam when i have shield block up or im not moving him around (melee heavy group so trying to get haste buffs/move out of ice falls) so its a little skewed

Unless I screwed up my math somewhere, max threat with no rage concerns is:
spam heroic strike
shield slam when up
devastate

With rage concerns its:
shield slam when sword and board is up
devastate
revenge (In extreme low rage situations, move above devestate)


Please correct my numbers if I'm wrong, but it looks to me like revenge is worse than devastate even if I took the imp revenge talent.

EDIT: Im having trouble reading the formulas in satrinas post, so it may be possible the formulas should be:
Devestate: 630 + 10% AP + (damage*2.07)
Revenge: 121 + (damage*2.07)
Heroic Strike: (dmg-avg melee dmg)*2.07 + 259
Shield Slam: 770 + (dmg * 2.07)

which would move the numbers of revenge with talent (+20% damage)to almost exactly equal to devastate (well within margin of error)
Someone help me out here please

Edit2: added numbers per satrina and for convienence, added revenge numbers with +20% damage. Note that Hodir only had 7 revenged all non-crit so remember the sample sizes. The 2 full logs are more useful

[Satrina]

Source: Celandro EDIT: Im having trouble reading the formulas in satrinas post, so it may be possible the formulas should be: Devestate: 630 + 10% AP + (damage*2.07) Revenge: 121 + (damage*2.07) Heroic Strike: (dmg-avg melee dmg)*2.07 + 259 Shield Slam: 770 + (dmg * 2.07)

Everything gets multiplied by 2.07 for stance, so you can ignore it.

Devastate as of 3.2 = damage + 16.3%AP (a close enough approximation for now)
Revenge = damage + 121
Shield Slam = damage + 770
Heroic Strike = damage + 259

That's it. If you really want to include the defensive stance bonus:

Devastate = (damage + 16.3%AP) * 2.07
Revenge = (damage + 121) * 2.07
Shield Slam = (damage + 770) * 2.07
Heroic Strike = (damage + 259) * 2.07

I would bet that you are losing more threat from the loss of 62.5% of your heroic strikes than you are gaining from that extra devastate damage. Whether revenge deals less threat than devastate when using a 1.6 speed weapon is for figuring out when it's not raid time.

[Celandro]

Source: Satrina Everything gets multiplied by 2.07 for stance, so you can ignore it. Devastate as of 3.2 = damage + 16.3%AP (a close enough approximation for now) Revenge = damage + 121 Shield Slam = damage + 770 Heroic Strike = damage + 259 That's it. If you really want to include the defensive stance bonus: Devastate = (damage + 16.3%AP) * 2.07 Revenge = (damage + 121) * 2.07 Shield Slam = (damage + 770) * 2.07 Heroic Strike = (damage + 259) * 2.07 I would bet that you are losing more threat from the loss of 62.5% of your heroic strikes than you are gaining from that extra devastate damage. Whether revenge deals less threat than devastate when using a 1.6 speed weapon is for figuring out when it's not raid time.

Thanks! I had read in another thread that devastate glyph was being counted twice which is where i got the 630 + 10% AP from. I trust your numbers more though .

The main benefit of running a slow weapon appears to be gaining 2 talent points from skipping improved revenge. However note we are talking a 239 ilvl weapon vs. a 232 weapon. Also devestate has a higher crit rate for deep wounds (which im ignoring) and is more supported from set bonus/talent perspective.

You are certainly correct that less heroic strikes occur, however I suspect there are more of them (percentage wise) and the no glancing blows/crit improvement is significant as well. Rage starvation does happen even on a fight like hodir (as does the 100 rage with no way to burn it). What I have found however, is having a macro for devastate/heroic strike to pound while trying to drag hodir around was more threat than trying to keep up a fancy rotation. Sure if i sat in a corner and pounded my full rotation my threat was higher but dragging hodir around gave my guild more dps at the cost of my threat.

Theory crafting max threat really does need to take into account human reaction time and real in game things to pay attention to. Dropping concussion blow and shockwave is a no brainer at this point. Dropping revenge is certainly more debatable but 2 talent points and a much simpler rotation is significant.

2 talent points is 2% more crit or 2 more points in shield spec for more consistant rage gen. The 7 revenges I did on hodir were almost certainly due to being below 10 rage. How many of those revenges only occurred because of shield spec?

I'm blathering but revenge is going to be obsolete soon. It doesn't scale as well as devastate and spending 2 talent points to improve it instead of improving everything is difficult to justify.

PS. I will run my titanguard for some hard mode beasts tries tomorrow. I should be able to get in game non-theory craft numbers for the difference .

[ezet]

I almost have my warrior at 80 so I'm trying to learn the most I can now (while waiting on my rested bar to grow) and not be wiping nubbishly later.

I pretty much already follow this flow chart rotation but i just realized i never used HS while tanking. However, is it a good idea to use Cleave instead of HS when there is 3 or more targets? or is tabbing through targets more effective due to the high threat HS does?
Also, does taunt build threat when target is already on you?

Finally, I apologize if this is too simple for this thread but its the only threat rotation post I could find.
Thank you.

[donthoto]

HS does (Damage + 259) threat. Cleave does (damage + 225) threat. For Cleave the threat is split between the targets. If there is only one target it will receive the full damage + 225. This means you should always Cleave with 2 or more opponents and HS with one (the majority of the threat is generated by the damage, not the modifier behind it). On multiple targets Cleave does more damage than HS.

I don't think Taunt builds (significant at least) threat when you already have it targeted, it just puts you at the top of the threat list again if you loose aggro.

You can also check out Satrinas threat guide for more: WoW 3.0 Threat Values

[joep180]

I have a lvl 80 warrior that currently MT's Naxx 25 and is OT'ing Ulduar 10. I am currently using glyph of blocking, devestate, and sunder. my spec is 15/5/51 for threat.
I am finding difficulties with holding threat over others, and I find that on single targets, ie. bosses, all I do is devestate continually and shield slam when it is up. I find that when I use other abilities my TPS drops considerably. Should I be using a different spec. for revenge and different glyphs? I have heard people say the best combo is Glyp of Cleave, Vigilance, and Devestate. Any suggestions? I know this is more suited for a different category, but I figured since the discussion was about the best glyphs and abilities for threat I would throw this up there.

Thanks

The World of Warcraft Armory (in dps gear now, put link up for spec and glyphs if needed)

[mistersix]

Revenge is a fantastic ability for threat. It sounds like you're missing that and heroic strike (also great for threat) from your arsenal. Swap out your glyph of sunder for glyph of revenge for free heroic strikes. Also don't forget to throw Vigilance on your neighbors on the threat meters.

[joep180]

thanks

[Cyraph]

@Ezet: No need for an excuse, but try to get the latest news about rotating for threat. The firstpage flowchart is outdated.
Read Celandros last posts carefully, ask if you don't understand everything.

In short: Don't CB and SW for max. threat anymore.

Source: Celandro [..]PS. I will run my titanguard for some hard mode beasts tries tomorrow. I should be able to get in game non-theory craft numbers for the difference :).

I'm still very interested in comparable numbers here, any news? :)

[Celandro]

I'll run heroic beasts on sunday and try and remember to run my fast weapon. Im very addicted to hps these days but I think Ive gained enough stamina in other places that the hit rating and avoidance would be helpful.

[Celandro]

I'll try and remember to run the threat numbers on this later.
This is a run with 5/12/54 spec
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Edit 2:
Removed unrelated death log info as to why stamina is more important than threat for heroic beaasts
1.5 speed weapon 5/12/54 spec threat information

Spell            Damage  Swings  Avg dmg  Threat
Shield Slam      660492     174     3796    4566
Devastate       1418787     613     2314    3344
Imp. Revenge Theoretical            3033    3154
Revenge           63178      25     2527    2648
Heroic Strike    751551     513     1465    1674
Melee            396002     502      789     789

This was with a max mitigation spec so no deep wounds or impale. 2pc T9. Also around 2000 block value. Revenge is a very low sample size so its not reliable but it is consistant

[Kojiyama]

I'm not really certain how that is relevant to the issue of weapons or TPS, as you can get fast weapons with quite a lot of Stamina as well.

Additionally, if you are going for TPS there is absolutely no reason to not be Impale/Deep Wounds spec. That is the single biggest TPS gain a Warrior can get, realistically, in terms of the small amount of choices there are to make between weapons, rotation, or floating talent points.

(On an unrelated note, the main reason you died was that your healers weren't very organized. 1 heal in 2 seconds is not going to cut it, especially near the Ferocious Butt cooldown timer, which is quite regular.)

In short: Don't CB and SW for max. threat anymore.

As posted here: No more SS>Revenge>Devastate weaved with shockwave this is really not that accurate of a statement. If you drop anything, it will likely be Revenge and perhaps Shield Slam in very rare cases. Unless you have both the 2-set T8 and T9 set bonuses at the same time, you most almost certainly want to use Shield Slam, Shockwave, and Concussion Blow in your rotation--even if you drop Revenge or only use it at low rage.

[Celandro]

Source: Kojiyama I'm not really certain how that is relevant to the issue of weapons or TPS, as you can get fast weapons with quite a lot of Stamina as well. Additionally, if you are going for TPS there is absolutely no reason to not be Impale/Deep Wounds spec. That is the single biggest TPS gain a Warrior can get, realistically, in terms of the small amount of choices there are to make between weapons, rotation, or floating talent points. (On an unrelated note, the main reason you died was that your healers weren't very organized. 1 heal in 2 seconds is not going to cut it, especially near the Ferocious Butt cooldown timer, which is quite regular.) As posted here: No more SS>Revenge>Devastate weaved with shockwave this is really not that accurate of a statement. If you drop anything, it will likely be Revenge and perhaps Shield Slam in very rare cases. Unless you have both the 2-set T8 and T9 set bonuses at the same time, you most almost certainly want to use Shield Slam, Shockwave, and Concussion Blow in your rotation--even if you drop Revenge or only use it at low rage.

According to the spreadsheet, concussion blow and shockwave are both below devesate average threat for the following situations:
2.6 speed deep wounds spec, 2pc T8 2pc T9 - concussion blow 17% behind, shockwave 19% behind
2.6 speed no deep wounds 2pc T8 2pc T9 - concussion blow 9% behind, shockwave 11% behind
2.6 speed deep wounds spec, no T8 2pc T9 - concussion blow 8% behind, shockwave 10% behind
2.6 speed no deep wounds no T8 2pc T9 - concussion blow 5% behind, shockwave 7% behind
2.6 speed deep wounds spec, no T8 no T9 - concussion blow 5% behind, shockwave 7% behind
2.6 speed no deep wounds no T9 no T9 - concussion blow 1% behind, shockwave 3% behind
1.5 speed deep wounds spec, 2pc T8 2pc T9 - concussion blow 7% behind, shockwave 9% behind
1.5 speed no deep wounds 2pc T8 2pc T9 - concussion blow 2% ahead, shockwave 4% ahead
1.5 speed deep wounds spec, no T8 2pc T9 - concussion blow 1% behind, shockwave 2% behind

They are ahead for the following situations
1.5 speed no deep wounds no T8 2pc T9 - concussion blow 2% ahead, shockwave 1% ahead
1.5 speed deep wounds spec, no T8 no T9 - concussion blow 2% ahead, shockwave 1% ahead
1.5 speed no deep wounds no T9 no T9 - concussion blow 6% ahead, shockwave 4% ahead

Revenge is NEVER more threat than devestate for any of these cases, even with improved revenge. I can not see how improved revenge is justifiable anymore unless you need the stun or you are severely rage starved. I would argue that shield spec is better for the rage starvation case as it will lower the chances of that dramatically.


Max threat rotation does depend on weapon speed, amount of AP, wether you have set bonuses, how much block value you have (and shield block of course) and of course your % of heroic strike usage.

Wether to use slow weapon or fast weapon also depends on all those things. Its not cut and dry anymore.

I argue that for all ToC fights, if you arent intentionally taking hits (so rage starvation can be an issue), your max threat is going to be from a slow weapon with a simple priority rotation of
Shield Slam > Devestate with heroic strike used only if over 50 rage.

For a true threat fight, your best is going to be:
2 piece T8, 2 piece T9 a 2.6 speed weapon
Shield slam when sword and board or shield block is up > Devastate
Heroic strike every time, take an intentional hit if need be

If there is ever some bizarre fight that truly requires high threat, the absolute best will be:
2pc t8, 2 piece t9, enough defense/resilance to be uncrittable and.. a bunch of armor penetration/crit dps pieces with a 3% crit dmg meta gem.
I accidentally tanked a boss in ulduar with dps gear on and my threat on omen never dipped below 10K

[Kojiyama]

I'm really uncertain how you can possibly be getting those numbers.

I can find no scenario where Devastate does more threat per execute than Concussion Blow with a 1.6s weapon with proper raid-buffed stats and the T9 2-set bonus.

Additionally, it will never beat it on damage even when it is similar in threat, and weaving SW/CB will add at least 75-100 DPS to your rotation over Devastate in the best-case scenarios for Devastate in T9 gear with a 2.6s weapon.

My guess is that you are using unrealistically low Attack Power figures and thus underestimating the scaling of CB/SW.

[Celandro]

Im using wartotem's spreadsheet at unbuffed values of 3700 ap 28 expertise 8% hit 2000 block value based on what my paper doll was saying as of a week ago. There may very well be a bug in his spreadsheet.

Note that devestate threat with glyph is (315 + 5% AP) * 2 + damage
I agree the average damage is 800-900 lower.

Edit:
The numbers in code blocks are from actual threat parses. If you have your own logs somewhere I can run them for you as well.

[Kojiyama]

The numbers I'm running include the Devastate glyph and bonus as current in 3.2.

What is your buffed AP showing as? Because I believe T9 Warriors should have no problem breaking 6k AP fully buffed in raids.

[Celandro]

Its showing as 5727 buffed (3679 unbuffed)

He does not have ironshield pots as an option but thats only an extra 80ap some of the time

[Casper7526]

Did people really forget why you use SW in your rotation? Your not gonna dodge/parry my shockwave when you just might my devastate, I'm using shockwave everytime it's up, as for revenge, there's still alot of times when improved revenge stun is insanely helpful to have, so even if I do stop using revenge in my rotation, I would never remove the 2 points. Heck, tanking anub adds I love my revenge for an extra interrupt.