[Jag Kara]

At the point of a full sunder stack its really only useful for aggro, refreshing the sunder stack, and proccing shield slam. Though devestate can be helpful to spam at times. With sword and board, you could end up proccing a whole bunch of shield slams. (not saying just ignore the rotation and do devestates, but it is helpful to let loose with them when you can.)

[Durundal]

What are you guys reaching TPS wise? With this setup and a constant HS spam, I seem unable to top 5k without an outside buff (misdirect, TTT, w/e). Its starting to cause a problem when some of the DPS is easily out threating me.

[Roarc]

It varies a bit but threat is usually not an issue. Around 6-7K TPS I'd say is the norm, but it varies from about 5K to about 8K.

Regards
Roarc

[Lett]

When I am tanking, say for instance Deconstructor, I notice that my threat never goes below 5k and goes as high as 7k. Now that also is in part that my main Vigilance target was doing AoE packs that night and so i wasn't getting he effect of it. Normally, with him as a constant Dpser, I do 5.9k to 7.5k spiking as high as 8k.

[JPC1086]

Question:

I see that a lot of people have sort of just accepted the flow chart for what it is. Is there an factual evidence that opening as..

SS>Revenge(assuming no proc)>Devastate>(proc SS/no proc Conc)

is more threat versus

SS>Revenge(assuming no proc)>Conc>SW.

I am just trying to be objective here. I only skimmed the first 6 pages looking for something like to stand out or some math/threat simulator numbers to prove or disprove the flowchart.

Don't get me wrong, I think the flowchart is great and is near perfect, but I think we should also tweak it out a bit with some sort of math involving proc chance vs. SW/Conc Dmg initially, and also using Heroic Throw.

Just trying to be objective and keep the discussion flowing =D

[Squirrelnut]

The reasoning behind devastate taking decent priority is the fact that Sunders improve raid-wide DPS. It isn't all about us (our DPS is poor anyway), our sunders are a HUGE benefit to raids and allows other warriors to not worry about it as much.

[Muffin Man]

Source: JPC1086 Question: I see that a lot of people have sort of just accepted the flow chart for what it is. Is there an factual evidence that opening as.. SS>Revenge(assuming no proc)>Devastate>(proc SS/no proc Conc) is more threat versus SS>Revenge(assuming no proc)>Conc>SW. I am just trying to be objective here. I only skimmed the first 6 pages looking for something like to stand out or some math/threat simulator numbers to prove or disprove the flowchart. Don't get me wrong, I think the flowchart is great and is near perfect, but I think we should also tweak it out a bit with some sort of math involving proc chance vs. SW/Conc Dmg initially, and also using Heroic Throw. Just trying to be objective and keep the discussion flowing =D

Math probably could be done to straighten out those break points, but with the bonus threat on Devastate and it's increasing damage with sunders, as well as the dps increase to the raid and your subsequent attack (as Squirrelnut). Well there's a lot of benefit to getting sunders up fast. But true, for theory we could see the exact AP breakpoint where Devastate with 0-5 sunder effects will outthreat CB/SW.

Quick napkin math:
CB = 75% AP as damage * d-stance
Dev = (50% weapon damage + 5% ap ) * d-stance

So this looks pretty complicated, but we can call the breakpoint at 70% AP / 50% weapon damage. So with no sunders, CB will do more threat, and that's the situation you would find in an opening.

I'm ignoring armor for now because my napkin only has that much room and I don't think it'll change the equation that much for 0 sunders. I'm also ignoring the SS proc change plus the increase crit change on Dev which gets complicated to say the least.

As for Heroic Throw, I believe it's rarely worth it if you have rage since it both triggers the GCD and resets your swing timer. I'm sure someone has the numbers to prove/disprove this though.

[brain9h]

Two points missing in this thread:

1) To consistently open with SS>Revenge you must use Shield Block first which is also good since it smooths down damage taken during pull (Big Bad Boss is not debuffed) AND increases your SS threat. That is true unless you're wearing 4pT8 for the 20% magical dmg reduction bonus, in which case you may not want to use shield block on the pull and will need to be lucky to have revenge proc right away.

2) In many situations you already have lots of rage when opening, let's say, tanking the first Immortal guardian on Yogg p3, or agroing Thorim when he goes down the arena. In situations like these, SS+Heroic Strike is the best threat first move, although in Yogg in particular one could argue that Taunt > Thunderclap(!) > SS+HS are the best moves if you use thunderclap when the mob is still too far for shield slam to hit.

[blincoln]

Hello,

I am new to the spot, and am just reading through the 6 pages of info here, which is great! My question is, why is there no (or very little) room for Heroic Strike in this rotation? I am relatively new to tanking, and was under the impression that outside of certain abilities that specifically generate higher threat, that threat through DPS was the way to go... I might need to read more and be further educated, but it seems to me that after you do your 5 devistates to stack sunder, you should be using heroic strike between your SS and Revenge CD's.

Feel free to tell me where I am missing something...

[Kazeyonoma]

blincoln. you would heroic strike anytime > 50 rage ANYTIME during this rotation since heroic strike is GCD-free you can queue it up for your next white hit, anytime regardless of any rotation. So this "rotation" or priority list to be better put, is for your GCD bound abilities only. You should be doing ALL of this AND heroic striking everytime your rage is over 50. (I recommend binding mouse-wheel-up to this task and just spinning away!)

[mistersix]

This thread and graph should be revisited given the buffs to devastate, no?

[Kazeyonoma]

we just essentially go back to the SS->rev->dev->dev rotation of the past, for pure threat, for damage this priority list still holds true I believe in that shockwave/conc blow still put out more damage than Dev unless possibly using both 8.5 and 9.0 tier bonuses.

[Andomar]

[Female Tauren Warrior] ...I think I might be an endangered species http://img388.imageshack.us/img388/5...warriorgv2.jpg

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Even your image is endangered!

[Risky]

1) Get a 1hander with a high top-end dps. You can afford to lose your defense weapon if you have decent gear. The heroic ToC one is a good start.
2)Macro /cast Devastate /cast Heroic Strike /startattack to your new spam button.
3)Glyph Devastate, maybe Heroic Strike, and whatever else you'd like. I prefer cleave.
4)Works best with a 15/5/51 build. Works still with miti spec. Avoid any points in Revenge or Shield Slam, unless they also improve devastate or mitigation.
5)Charge, spam that button, and at 10k tps, watch the fight and your panics like a hawk, and lead the raid to glory.

I find as a raid leader, tank officer and progression strategist, my time is best spent not worrying about a rotation for 2.7k dps and decent tps. This strategy for prot warrs gives you an easy 8k+ tps (in threat spec, maintanking freya+3 tonight, I did 4.5k dps), while allowing you to do whatever it is you can do to ensure your own survival and the raid's survival. From my experience, ignoring revenge and shield slam gives me insane threat.
Try it before you attack it. You must have a MH with high top-end.

[intime]

Source: clavarnway Concussion Blow and Shockwave do the same amount of damage for a single target fight. If one is acceptable in the priority queue, the other must naturally be. Keep in mind that Shockwave is annoying in that for a mob with a large character model, you actually have to move closer, near the inside of the model for Shockwave to hit, even if you're already in melee range. I would still use Devastate in their place for the first 5 GCD's that aren't Shield Slam or Revenge, though - higher threat due to Sunder applications, and the fact that you're actually putting Sunder's up ASAP, for increased raid DPS and increased tank threat.

true but procn ss with devis better in most cases and shockwave's threat is directly based how hard it hits I use it when ss,rev,conblow are on cool or with mobs

[Darmaul]

Source: intime true but procn ss with devis better in most cases and shockwave's threat is directly based how hard it hits I use it when ss,rev,conblow are on cool or with mobs

Yes it may be "better" in total threat but what's he's saying is that he gets sufficient threat just using Devastate w/ Heroic strike macro'd.

Then instead of diverting any of his attention on has revenge or S&B proc'd, are shield Slam / Conc blow / Shockwave off cooldown... He can focus all his attention on keeping himself and the raid alive.

I tend to agree with him. On new fights in ToC-25 where I've got a lot of people that don't know what they're doing, it's far more beneficial to the raid for me to be leading the raid, calling out warnings, movements and priority changes, watching survival cooldowns than to divert some of my focus to using the "ideal threat rotation" which only provides some small X% more threat.

How small X% actually is... I'm not sure actually and I'm going to look at that some more. But that is basically what I did in our ToC run this week and I didn't have any threat problems and I was far better able to call out warning and instructions for generally target changes and movements like with Burning Bile, Fel flames, and target changes on Faction champs than I was previously.


Edited to add: Even though this is an ideal threat rotation thread and spamming devastate is most probably not the ideal threat (though I haven't seen new numbers w/ the nerf to Shield Slam block value bonus and the buff to Devastate along with the Glyph of Devastate) there is definitely NOT the huge gap there used to be between the two. You also have to figure that your threat per second while dead is 0. If you do 7k tps with devastate spam and survive the whole fight and you do 8.5k tps with ss/revenge/dev and you die (or your healer dies 'cause you were a second late realizing he was getting hit 'cause you were looking at your cooldowns) then the 7k tps option becomes much more attractive.

[eugenoden]

why the devastate is the last choise?...ok have the lowest threat but if the enemy have sunders u will take more threat...right?

[Kazeyonoma]

this is on a pure threat rotation basis, your initial start of a pull may vary depending on if you're glyphed for devastate if you prioritize sunder 5 stacks first, or what not. I have devastate glyphhed so i'll normally shield slam first, then revenge, then devastate 3 times (i have it glyphed so that's 5 stacks) then continue this priority list from there.

[influxreptile]

Source: Kazeyonoma this is on a pure threat rotation basis, your initial start of a pull may vary depending on if you're glyphed for devastate if you prioritize sunder 5 stacks first, or what not. I have devastate glyphhed so i'll normally shield slam first, then revenge, then devastate 3 times (i have it glyphed so that's 5 stacks) then continue this priority list from there.

Unless you're not getting any MD's or ToTT's you'll surely want to start by getting up thunder clap (for the mages) followed demo shout (if you're the one keeping it up, followed next by stacking 5 sunders asap. Pop shield block after this and use the ideal shield slam > revenge > devastate rotation. If you have glyph of devastate you can ignore shockwave and conc blow on single target bosses unless you're maximising dps.

[Celandro]

With the changes to devastate, I too have switched to a slow MH (furious glad 1h with stam gem).

I have almost dropped revenge from the rotation completely which freed up 2 talents for shield spec.

rotation is now:
charge->devestatex3
Then:
Is shield block up and shield slam off cooldown and ?
Yes - shield slam if rage permits else go to no
No - Do you have >50 rage OR is sword and board proc up
- Yes- shield slam if possible else go to no
- No - Do you have > 12 rage
- Yes Devestate
- No Revenge
On movement heavy fights like hodir, i will macro in heroic strike like:

#showtooltip devastate
/cast !heroic strike
/cast devastate

And just spam that except for using shield slams when shield block is up

The only agro problems i have had with this is occasional huge warlock/rogue/feral burst early on hodir hard if I dont get the first static charge or enough tricks/misdirects.

Devastate/heroic strike spam is remarkably good threat AND good threat per rage. Freeing up 2 talent points from imp revenge and simiplifying the threat rotation is a pretty good deal.