[JayDee81]

Lol dude, of course you do not stand there as a MT waiting for rage so you can complete a fixed rotation. An ideal rotation is for high rage scenarios, which is normally the case when Mting. If not, gear less avoidance & more EH/threat.

Actually as an OT, sometimes you might wait for enough rage for SS or wait for a block for revange, instead of using devestate on the target which is already on full sunder, as it will actually increase your TPS. Threat per rage is king. Threatgear increases threat per rage, so it is king.

As far as DW is concerned, I have to say I have not made the comparison, but I don't think you'd be able to put out much more threat without a shield with a protection build. This will depend highly on gear, so if you have T5 Tank & DPS gear, maybe yes. My tank gear is far superior to my DPS gear, so I normally wear mostly tank gear. Maybe somebody can come up with some numbers.

If you are not holding back your Raid on T5 with 800 sustained TPS on Omen, well, your DPS is not what it should be, thus also making things more difficult then it should/could be.

Uhm, and again, what did you say was the "much more" to threat? Not following a rotation? You're being creative, are you? As stated & proven in endless threads on various forums, the ideal rotation of rev, ss, dev, dev is just that, ideal. No matter what kind of creative top 25% tank you are, you're gimping your thread, shown by the numbers you posted.

There is a lot of places to be creative, but not when looking at pure numbers, in our case threat per rage.

Share your creativity with us please, I'd like to be enlightend.

[loquatious]

Brings up an interesting question. In terms of hate, is it better to dual wield? In rage starved Situations (Gruul/VR) I equip all the Expertise, SBV, +hit gear i've got, my hardest hitting weapon. I shield slam every cooldown and Devastate - thats it. I can maintain (by omen watching not WWS) about 600-700 TPS. Will white damage from the offhand really generate more hate than shield slam every cooldown?

I dont think so but I've never tested it.

[Kazeyonoma]

it's not the white hit that generates more, its the higher stream of rage you get by dual wielding since the boss isn't giving you free rage.

But in Gruul it's different, as OT you get hateful strikes to give you rage so aside from the very start of the fight, you should use your shield.

[Ramnath]

Yeah plus those hateful strikes can and do hurt. They literally fill your rage bar.

[Bullwrinkle]

A WWS would lend either credibility or hurt your cause here, Foolish. Its entirely possible your dps are all extremely average - which is unlike most guilds where you have 3-4 stars that can border on being threat capped, followed by a slew of average or poor players.

Case and point, I thought I was doing an amazing job tanking, since at some points I was as much as 50-60k threat ahead of my guild's dps during Kazrogal. We got a new lock app who was staying right on my ass for the entire fight. (He told me afterwards that he didnt actually stop casting, he was waiting to pass me to shatter) His dps was 400 higher then anyone we currently had in guild (Ballpark 1600-1700), and for the first time in memory I had to bust my ass to stay above him. I generally do produce more threat then my other guild warriors, but alot of that is due to gearing as well, I am both expertise soft capped and hit capped in my normal tanking gear, so regardless of skill, if I took away all my hit/expertise I would be generating 17-18% less threat period, regardless of skill - simply based off extra miss/dodge/parry. To say that skill could make up for hitting 85% as often as someone else is just preposterous. Our class is defined by our gear, period.

I do agree that people underestimate what they are capable of tanking, often citing gear as a reason, regardless of reality. I was tanking with about half blues in T5 content, and while I agree skill does play a part, its not as big of a chunk as you imagine it to be. I know plenty of average players in top end guilds, and plenty of people who think they are amazing in very mediocre guilds. It's just like people who spout off about being top on meters, its more about what YOU can do, not what your raid does - if you'd like a real benchmark of where you stand.

[Zloddy]

Well what if i pushed buttons right? In same moments what necessary? But i have misses, dodges during my ideal combo? or i have poor dps of Shield slam and from weapon =) - Is it mean what problem in my gear? =))) (need more hit or block value or more DPS and expertise?)

[Foolishness]

Firstly on the duel weapons topic for off tanking, i have found that using 2 weapons at once, allows enough rage to constantly devaspam, and even throw in heroic stikes for most of the part (this is done in defensive stance for extra threat). On the other hand, using a shield results in much less rage, and lower threat despite shield slam.

On gruul i used to duel wield until growth 7. During this time, hateful strike damage is fairly insignificant, and you can really get ahead on threat before you need to change to shield. On void reaver i also duel wield after i lose aggro. I have quick access macros so that i can change back to shield in a split second. I found this to be a hugely more effective than using a shield.

Anyhow, as far as my guild possibly having low dps, i pointed out before that this is a very possible scenario, and yeah i really do need to get some wws reports do give my argument some more merit.

As far as my '800' threat is concerned, its probably not even that. Who knows, until i get some wws data. The main point is, i dont get caught.

And for kaz, yes i stack avoidance and EH like mad. I tank big bosses in 34% dodge. I am constantly rage starved. To try and offset this i use imp HS and imp sunder talents to allow me to keep a half decent rotation rolling. The reason i don't follow the proven rotation and use lower rage abilties rather than waiting for ss, is that i figure its better hitting devastate rather than waiting for sheild slam rage. Often, by the time my GCD from devastate is up, i will have generated enough rage to hit my shield slam on the next one. So instead of missing out on 1 gcd and waiting for shield slam, i have ended up doing both if i'm lucky. I think its optimal tanking in the best survival gear i can, because that way i cut out the maximum possible amount of wipes from tank death, and like i said, the DPS has not had to wait so theres no offset.

[Kazeyonoma]

I will wait for the wws report before I make any further comments. If your raid isn't holding back that's fine, but if you're healers are having no problem keeping you up, losing some dodge for some threat would probably do your raid more than having that much avoidance that you are rage starved.

[Foolishness]

If my DPS does not have to hold back, then what is the point of increasing my threat? Unused threat is dead weight loss. Doesn't this make sense? It wont make anything easier for anyone, apart from myself. And i don't mind working a bit harder.


As far as WWS is concerned, any information i get now will be fairly irrelevant due to the fact that we don't do much t4/ t5 content anymore, and my DPS has become more powerful with all the new haste gear etc. So obviously they were not doing as much damage back then as they are now. Still i'm going to try and get WWS setup and get some info.

[Pupsik]

Few scenarios:

Single target with no adds(bear in ZA for instance), dps should have you sweating for more aggro since they can micro manage their rotations and maximise their damage.

Single target with adds(ZA dragonhawk), if your threat on single target is so great, help offtank/debuff the birds.

Multiple targets hitting for low amounts of damage, forget about CC and multi-tank the mobs so your dps partners can maximize their damage via multi target abilies(chain lightning, blade flurry, cleave, whirlwind, SoC etc).

I believe there is no such thing as too much threat.

Not enough dps is more like it. If you are so confident in your threat, let melee have Might instead of salvation and casters get wisdom instead of salvation. If your dps still does not make you sweat without salvation, then then you should be rolling with different people.