[Ciderhelm]

Bornakk: The next question is: do we plan to have tanking specs get more integrated into PvP? For example, like a new Taunt mechanic? Tom Chilton: Well, yes and no. To a degree, we definitely want to improve the viability of the tanking specs in PvP. But I only mean that with respects to casual PvP, like battlegrounds. We don't actually have realistic plans to try to make the tanking specs be Arena-competitive, viable specs, necessarily. We feel like it's okay if there are certain specs that really aren't competitive end-game specs. At the same time, we do want to make sure that when you roll into a battleground, that you feel reasonably useful. We don't want you to have to respec every time you go to a battleground or whatever. To some degree, we have that, in that prot warriors, for example, are pretty popular for running the flag in Warsong Gulch. They also can be pretty useful for defending different points of interest, either in Arathi Basin or even in, potentially, Eye of the Storm. So, we have it to some degree, but we do want to moderate those differences more than we have right now and make them a little bit more viable for PvP than they are but I don't think that the expectation should be that you'll be able to be a high-end, Arena- competitive player.

View Full Blizzcast Transcript Here.


Blizzard,

The Protection Warrior is close. That is, the Protection Warrior is close to being substantially more viable and more enjoyable in PVP than it currently is. No fundamental design changes are necessary.

I'm at least partly responsible for the number of players who want Protection PVP to be viable. I've shown mathematically, in testing, and in Battlegrounds PVP that the damage potential exists. However, I actively advise Warriors to respec Arms if they want to PVP.

The reason is realistically obtainable gear. My gear is mixed between T3 and T6 for maximizing my damage output. Reaching the highest damage potential for a Protection Warrior is literally impossible unless a player raids both Naxxramas and Black Temple.

Armstrong <Elysium>, Burning Legion US, completed a mock-up of what would happen if Strength on the Season 3 Arena set were converted directly to Shield Block Value. His conclusion was that, with a full set of gear, a Protection Warrior would gain:

• 1054 Shield Block Value (Includes Shield Mastery)
• 60 Hit Rating
• 31% Crit (Battle Stance)
• 469 Armor Penetration
• 384 Resilience
• 13154 Health (Human)

That set of gear is not overpowered. It does not imbalance PVE content. It would not replace PVE-acquired tanking gear. It would not give Protection competitiveness in the top bracket of Arenas. The above gear would have limited auto-attack and Whirlwind damage output but would have respectable burst damage from crits. Here are examples, without factoring damage reduction from Resilience:

• With no additional buffs, Shield Slam would hit a target with 20% Damage Reduction for 1,306 damage. Shield Slam would crit the same target for 2,612 damage.
• With Deathwish and Impale, Shield Slam would hit a target with 20% Damage Reduction for 1,567 damage. Shield Slam would crit the same target for 3,448 damage.
• With Deathwish and Impale, and with Gnomeregan Auto-Blocker 600 activated, Shield Slam would hit a target with 20% Damage Reduction for 1,842 damage. Shield Slam would crit the same target for 4,052 damage.

Warriors remain the only multi-purpose class without multiple PVP sets. Druids, Paladins and Shaman each have three sets; Priests and Warlocks have two. The Blizzcast comments are concerning because they suggest Blizzard believes Protection Warriors are popular in PVP as a result of token PVE; however, when I queue for PVP, I do it to compete with players, not just to run flags or tank NPCs. A Protection oriented PVP set would give other Warriors the same opportunity I have.

Protection already has a unique PVP playstyle. Protection isn't simply Arms-lite, nor is it broken: with gear, it's a caster-killer. The Shield Slam dispel occurs before damage is calculated, often leaving shielded casters to bear the full force of the attack. The availability of Tactical Mastery (allowing more efficient Spell Reflects), Concussion Blow and Improved Shield Bash add to our anti-caster utility. Finally, the way our damage is weighted over time -- heavily reliant on burst from Shield Slam -- is ideal for casters with whom we only get briefly in range of.

Last September, I requested that Shield Slam be moved to a 100% dispel. The second part of that request was Protection PVP gear. One is not effective without the other.

Please consider a Protection Warrior PVP set.

-Ciderhelm

[Link]

Wow, they are so close to getting it right!

[Ciderhelm]

rofl. Hold on, typing it!

[Gehn]

I agree with all sentiments in this thread =)

[Ciderhelm]

Edited in.

[torand]

/signed

Is this on the Blizzard Forums somewhere?

Also, I wish we could have stayed there, but after going 9-0 for the week:



The World of Warcraft Armory

[Ciderhelm]

Not yet on the WoW forums, I want to add a bit of damage math to the post first.

[torand]

Yeah, let us know when you get it there if you would. I really want to add some comments to it. I was so disappointed when I saw Tom Chitlon's response, because all they need to do is make a Prot PVP set. Currently we beat almost every double DPS team, and can typically beat any Healer/Melee DPS team if the healer is not a druid .

If we had some real Damage output, we could start beating caster teams; although druid would still be pretty fatal I would think.

[Ciderhelm]

Added a few numbers on potential SS damage to the original post.

[Ukyo]

/signed

i want my prot pvp gear, i'm tired of running with S2/S3 and pretty much nothing of block value =/

[Meia]

I'd have to agree here. (of course, why wouldn't I agree for anything that would make prot warriors more viable and enjoyable to play!)

Anyway, those shield slams are a bit over powered, but you wouldn't want to sacrifice all of that strength anyway, normal attacks do deal a significant amount of damage in arena's, and without AP, our overpower's would be a little bit gimped. Even converting half the strength to SBV would do the trick, a well balanced PVP set really would make prot pvp fairly viable.

[Armstrong]

Source: Ciderhelm With Shield Mastery, Shield Slam would hit a target with 20% Damage Reduction for 1,584 damage. Shield Slam would crit the same target for 3,185 damage. With Shield Mastery, Deathwish and Impale, Shield Slam would hit a target with 20% Damage Reduction for 1,901 damage. Shield Slam would crit the same target for 4,204 damage. With Gnomeregan Auto-Blocker 600, Shield Mastery, Deathwish and Impale, Shield Slam would hit a target with 20% Damage Reduction for 2,175. Shield Slam would crit the same target for 4,809 damage.

I may be missing something in your damage math but I thought I should reiterate that the 1054 SBV figure already included 3/3 Shield Mastery.



So the math for a normal SS would be:

(((420+440) ÷ 2) + 1054) × 1.1 × 0.8 = 1306, 2612 crit.

× 1.1 being 5/5 1H Spec, × 0.8 being the 20% damage reduction.



Normal hit with Death Wish active: 1567. 2/2 Impale crit: 3448.

Normal hit with Death Wish and Trinket active: 1842. 2/2 Impale crit: 4052.



Nice post btw.



Edit: You may want to add that such a set would not replace traditional tank gear used in PvE. That sort of factor matters quite a bit to the people at Blizzard who oversee character progression from a standpoint of players having to "put in the time" to achieve certain goals (i.e. keep those monthly payments coming).

[Ciderhelm]

Yeah.... I factored it assuming SM wasn't included. Thanks!

[*Siona*]

I posted something to this effect on the Blizzard forums a few days ago actually, but without the math. Needless to say, I got told to "spec arms nub" and other words to that effect. I completely agree that giving us a set focused around shield block value from the arena would absolutely not be a viable PvE tanking set compared to gear attainable from PvE, and would go a long way towards making us at least able to have fun in PvP. Because that's really what this game is all about isn't it?

[Domichi]

I sure hope Blizz takes this into serious consideration. You have my support

[Nuberino]

I have resigned myself to not a dps class in PVP, but in all the battlegrounds I find that I have some very clear uses that I can compete with other classes favorably.

I find that in full tank gear:

I have no problem running flags

I have no problem guarding positions (easy to hold off a small offensive alone until reinforcements arrive)

I can push the opposing line backwards, they can rarely knock me off my mount (not even sure what abilities do it since it is so rare) and I can make an entire defense run after me trying to burn me down.

What I bring to the battleground is strong survivability and I use that to my advantage - I have entirely stopped switching into my dps/pvp set as my tank set really plays on my strengths in battlegrounds. I can still be useful when it comes to the thick of it, hamstring, rend (rogues), concussion blow, shield bash etc. Most 1v1's I will get trashed, but it makes me smile when the opposing team starts to focus fire on me while my team can start mowing through their clothies.

Arenas are really the one aspect of pvp that I think prot warriors just fall flat. And the changes that Cider has suggested would at least bring some moderate usefullness to us. I would love to see us at least viable for arenas and it would give us more of a dps role in battlegrounds -- though I really think from a battleground perspective prot warriors already fill in some very useful roles.

[ebs2002]

The only thing I'm worried about with those figures is that, with such a high Shield Block Value, we'd be pretty impenetrable from a melee standpoint. Many hits would be blocked altogether.

As it is now, when I'm wearing a high SBV set in BGs, I'm impenetrable by blockable damage but spells can mow me down. This is because SBV vs Resilience is a trade-off I have to make.

I'm worried that high resilience and high block value may OP protection warriors a bit

[Heartwood]

I know I miss out on a large and fun part of the game by not PvP'ing. As a Prot Warrior with above average gear I've tried some 2v2 and noticed the difficulty in competing as Prot spec. C'est le vie. But I would be interested in getting onto an even-footing with other classes/specs to give PvP another try.

-Heartwood

[Bigstik]

My plan, as of yet, is to buy the blue PvP gear from rep vendors in 2.4 and... socket it for crit, sigh.
I also had a question about prot PvP. As shield slam's crit rate functions off your main hand crit rate, does Axe Specialization affect shield slam's crit rate?

[Berginyon]

It would be cool if taunt forced a target change. It would be useful in disrupting focus-fire in pvp. Imagine if you could taunt an ememy healer and if they were paying attention, they would heal you :-)