[brain9h]

good job cider.

[Nuberino]

Thinking on it, I agree with Ebs on this. With those stats, you are outputting decent damage, nearly invulnerable to melee damage and have really good resilience. Shield block value is too powerful of a stat in pvp to have in such large numbers coupled with other common pvp stats (crit and resilience).

[Ciderhelm]

Source: Nuberino Thinking on it, I agree with Ebs on this. With those stats, you are outputting decent damage, nearly invulnerable to melee damage and have really good resilience. Shield block value is too powerful of a stat in pvp to have in such large numbers coupled with other common pvp stats (crit and resilience).

"Nearly invulnerable to melee damage" is simply not correct. Shield Block is not an effective ability in PVP.

Shield Block requires you a) not be incapacitated/stunned/feared/etc and b) facing your target. More importantly than either, it requires you spend Rage on a damage reduction ability, which is already tight.

To be effective in player vs. player combat, you don't run around trying to tank players. If you spend all of your rage on reducing damage incoming, you get destroyed. The only place it works is 1v1 on Warriors or Feral Druids, and occasionally on Rogues, but the moment you have two players on you, you can't just shift around and get them all in front of you like PVE.

With the exception of Crit, my set of gear is substantially stronger than the example given. My gear has large amounts of Defense/Avoidance/Block Rating. Being "near invulnerable" to Melee classes is something that hasn't happened. Nor is my limited damage output good to waste on Melee.


The argument was also made in Armstrong's thread that this set might be overpowered in PVE. It would not be. Again, I have a stronger set of gear than the example given, and I can do some neat tricks with it, but nothing remotely gamebreaking.

[ebs2002]

I guess it depends on what your block rating would be. Normally my block rating is through the roof because I'm wearing PvE block-value gear which, at my gear level at least, gives a high block rating as it is.

I don't spam shield block in pvp, but I still own similarly-geared melee classes (I think my block rating + miss + dodge + parry is around 65%). Couple that with high armor and Imp Demo Shout 2/5, and rogues and MS warriors barely touch me. The sword-spec rogue was complaining that most of his crits were doing under 300, and his non-crits were largely fully blocked. This was me wearing T4 block-value gear with 3 or 4 pieces of Arena (S1 hat/shoulders/gloves, S3 bracer) already, too. YMMV, though.

[Ciderhelm]

You're talking about 1v1, though. Protection is already the strongest anti-Arms spec, and the most consistent anti-Rogue spec. I am as guaranteed of a win against an MS Warrior as a good Frost Mage is.

In live PVP, the advantage of SBV is greatly diminished for the reasons I outlined, unless you specifically look for 1v1 situations that you'd have won without a gear change.

[Nuberino]

I just don't see how you would expect Blizzard to implement changes that would allow for high survivability (having a huge block value and a huge resilience) and high (burst) dps.

Would I like that to happen? Absolutely, but I don't see that happening, at least not in those numbers.

[Kazeyonoma]

you're block rating would be terrible because pvp gear has no block rating, and that change isn't being asked to be put in, merely a str->sbv conversion.

this would be fun though. especially berg's suggestion haha, Taunt, Crit Heal! YAY!

[Ciderhelm]

Source: Nuberino I just don't see how you would expect Blizzard to implement changes that would allow for high survivability (having a huge block value and a huge resilience) and high (burst) dps. Would I like that to happen? Absolutely, but I don't see that happening, at least not in those numbers.

The S3 Arena set has a lot of Resilience... but so does every other S3 Arena set. Even the ones with high burst dps.

There's zero circumstance in live PVP where damage reduction from Shield Block Value has a significant impact on the outcome of a battle. It only matters in duels. It only works on classes that Warriors are already going to come out successful, regardless of spec.

My gear is superior in every regard but Crit; I already know how this plays out. I've been in every PVP situation outside of serious Arenas. I already know that using Shield Block is one of the best ways to waste your rage, your potential, and your purpose in group PVP. The dependencies of Shield Block are brutal, and no Arms Warrior or Rogue is ever going to voluntarily attack you and decide to face you while doing it.

High survivability? No more than any Arms Warrior, not in this gear.

[Nuberino]

You will have higher survivability than an arms warrior (+6k more armor not counting shield block which with that high of a block value would be worth the rage when against a melee target) and good enough burst damage to kill casters and melee alike. I guess I just don't see that happening.

[Ciderhelm]

Source: Nuberino not counting shield block which with that high of a block value

You've said this three times now but haven't even bothered to defend why this would work in group PVP. It doesn't. Period.

Arms Warriors have Iron Will, Second Wind and Mace Specialization. They can have Improved Demo, Piercing Howl, and Blood Craze, none of which can fit into a Protection PVP build. In PVP, these things matter a whole lot more than Armor from a shield that they, too, can equip, or a set of PVE-oriented defensive talents.

[Nuberino]

You've said this three times now but haven't even bothered to defend why this would work in group PVP. It doesn't. Period.

Outside of the arena, I have no issues using shield block for decent effect when I am up against melee opponents. I guess I just disagree with you completely disregarding it.

I still don't see why they would give prot warriors high burst damage. We have a unique playstyle in battlegrounds and it is obvious they don't want us to be competitve in arenas.

[Ciderhelm]

Source: Nuberino Outside of the arena, I have no issues using shield block for decent effect when I am up against melee opponents.

Right. When you're against Melee opponents. In 1v1 situations you can make use of it. Against smart players, you won't have a chance to make use of it in 2v1 or 2v2 situations, because one of them can stay behind you or one of them can stun/incapacitate you. In any case, making use of it requires them to already be attacking you, which smart players won't do until you're the last one standing. There is not an unlimited Rage pool to work with.

Your argument is that Warriors would be overpowered because they'd be able to take on Rogues and Arms Warriors.

The counter to that is two fold:
1) They already can.
2) Protection Warriors take far longer to kill Rogues than Arms Warriors do.

Protection attacking Melee is not ideal because of the damage penalties incurred in doing so. Time matters, and though Protection burst can be high, sustained damage is not.


No one can pretend that the mock-up set is some great damage reduction set. It's on par with other PVP sets. Just because it's for Protection does not mean that it's defensive gear. You would easily drop 15-20% or more Dodge/Parry/Miss by switching it, not to mention Block Rating.

[Nuberino]

Right. When you're against Melee opponents. In 1v1 situations you can make use of it. Against smart players, you won't have a chance to make use of it in 2v1 or 2v2 situations, because one of them can stay behind you or one of them can stun/incapacitate you. In any case, making use of it requires them to already be attacking you, which smart players won't do until you're the last one standing. There is not an unlimited Rage pool to work with.

Who are these smart pvpers and why are you playing against them as prot?

It sounds like they are close to happy with prot spec in battlegrounds etc and don't really care to buff us in the arena. If you are playing arenas respec, if you are playing in battlegrounds, delight in our unique playstyle.

[Ciderhelm]

Source: Nuberino Who are these smart pvpers and why are you playing against them as prot?

I can't stay mad at you.

Source: Nuberino It sounds like they are close to happy with prot spec in battlegrounds etc and don't really care to buff us in the arena. If you are playing arenas respec, if you are playing in battlegrounds, delight in our unique playstyle.

Your unique playstyle and my unique playstyle are different. That's part of the frustration a lot of Protection Warriors have. Mine involves killing people and being moderately effective at doing it thanks to gear from Naxxramas and Black Temple. Everyone else's involves running flags, tanking NPCs, and waiting endlessly by nodes hoping someone runs to them before basin ends. Allowing players to be more effective in engaging people would not need to diminish their role in flag-running, as seen with Feral Druids.

[ebs2002]

waiting endlessly by nodes hoping someone runs to them before basin ends.

Someone's gotta do it.

I agree that it's not as OP in group PvP, but with more world pvp coming out in WotLK, and pvp servers including more 1v1, you need to consider 1v1 situations. In what situations do you think the PvP warrior would be likely to lose with these changes?

[Ciderhelm]

Source: ebs2002 Someone's gotta do it. I agree that it's not as OP in group PvP, but with more world pvp coming out in WotLK, and pvp servers including more 1v1, you need to consider 1v1 situations. In what situations do you think the PvP warrior would be likely to lose with these changes?

The same classes Arms and Prot Warriors already lose to. Good kiters won't suddenly become bad.

[ebs2002]

I guess I'd have to see it in action. I always felt that I had a hard time dealing with Kiting classes because I had little to no resilience, and if I had my resil up I could spell-lock/run them OOM. As a protection warrior, hunters are still fairly easy targets, and if they don't get the jump on me frost mages aren't too bad either when I'm wearing resil gear instead of SBV gear (silencing shield bash, concussion blow, trinket out of frost nova and then intercepting when they blink, and spell-reflect on frostbolt). However, my damage output isn't that great in resil gear because I'm under 400 SBV, and I usually run out of cooldowns before I get them killed.

Balance Druids, on the other hand, I think will still give us trouble.

I don't know, I'm not trying to be a pessimistic nay-sayer; it's the nature of my RL job (software developer) to look at solutions from all perspectives and try to break it. I do think that these changes would make protection warriors more viable in battlegrounds and to some extent, 2000+ rating arena, and would welcome it. I can just picture the QQing from the rest of the community, though.

[gardek]

I've been begging to have something to PvP for as Prot for ages! I'm with you 100% Cider.

[klor]

Source: ebs2002 The only thing I'm worried about with those figures is that, with such a high Shield Block Value, we'd be pretty impenetrable from a melee standpoint. Many hits would be blocked altogether. As it is now, when I'm wearing a high SBV set in BGs, I'm impenetrable by blockable damage but spells can mow me down. This is because SBV vs Resilience is a trade-off I have to make. I'm worried that high resilience and high block value may OP protection warriors a bit

The only thing is the gear would not have a high block rating, so only 2 attacks every 10 seconds would have a high possibility of making us "Impenetrable" by melee. That would hardly make it OP. Remember, SBV is only useful if you actually block the attack **from a damage reduction standpoint**

[Norrath]

Yeah, PvP sets with SBV instead of AP/Str will not be anything close to tank gear. This is obvious. SBV only boosts actually blocked attacks on the defensive front (which means that only while you hit Shield Block will it be reliable, and then only for two hits). With two or more opponents, you almost certainly will be flanked, making your shield pretty useless for defensive purposes aside from the damage reduction the armor value gives.

You'd have, what, 10% base block chance, including talents?