[Morthengel]

I still can't feel so comfortable with the idea of a tank monitoring the status of the raid and ppl, watching a grid, calling things out...instead of watching his shiled block cooldown, etc...

But I am very comfortable with for example a hunter doing this, who steady shots, arcane shots, and FD's from time to time.

If the hunter performs his 80% it's no big deal. But we need 100% out of the tank.

Ok, I agree by nature the tanks are in the middle of things. So they find themselves dragged to talk on the tctics,, giving advice etc, but this is not a raid leading job responsibility. It is just advising. Not the same thing.

I did not MT 25man content, been fury/OT. But I know from the past like, while trying to pace my threat generation at Vael for perfect execution, I know I wouldnt be able to follow which caster is late running away from the group, causing explosion and wipe. Just can't process that much data at the same time.

[jword]

I guess it all depends on what you define as Raid leading.

If Raid Leading = Marking pulls, designating tanks/healers, calling out boss abilities, calling out stages of a boss. I think a tanking warrior can do all these things and do them easily (in addition to their threat, demo shout/thunderclap, and shield block abilities).

If Raid Leading = everything mentioned above AND watching positioning of other players - who is casting what ability in *REAL* time and telling people to change what they're doing / where they're standing in *REAL* time - No, I don't think a tanking warrior can / should do this - it requires mods/visual abilities that *real* time doesn't allow them to do.

As a warrior (i'm sure other warriors might agree with me on this) - the class of WoW that I despised the *MOST* above all others were Rogues. It gave me great pleasure that everytime I went up against another rogue (with any spec) I could, quite easily, take them down (unless they were chicken little bints and blind/sprint/vanish in order to escape their otherwise apparent demise). Ironically enough the *BEST* raid leader I've ever had in a guild was a rogue, and it made total sense to me - they SHOULD be leaders. They do not buff, they do not provide any advantages (direct or indirect) to any other raid member - they are simple/straightforward melee dps.
Unfortunately, that rogue along with 4 out 6 total guild leaders made the collective decision to quit WoW - and the guild did not survive the next 2 months after their leaving. Nameroc - you are truly missed as a leader.

Provided that rogues have knowledge of other classes/abilities, I think they have the potential to be the best raid-leaders due to not providing *anything* other than sheer-dps. They can easily have the mods to watch other casters casting bars and *actually* keep track of them real-time.

And as for the whole "cant see what's going on due to being in melee range" argument - well rogues can change that quite quickly, warrior tanks *can't* - so it's not that much of an argument to me.

So join me! Make your rogues learn about other classes! Make them keep up with what's happening *real* time during raids! No longer let them have the easiest / funnest (arguable) job in the game! Give them responsibility/accountability! -All other classes in the game do! So should they! Rally with me!

[Tristessa]

Source: jword Provided that rogues have knowledge of other classes/abilities, I think they have the potential to be the best raid-leaders due to not providing *anything* other than sheer-dps. They can easily have the mods to watch other casters casting bars and *actually* keep track of them real-time.

Not necessarily...they still have to be in the thick of things as opposed to the other classes who just need to pewpew as long as they have the correct target selected. They'll be busier than say, a hunter.

[Ceravantes]

Since my raiding career began in WoW, I have been leading, for a short time as a Hunter, and for the majority on my warrior. I find I have no trouble directing strats, assigning tanks etc. While tanking encounters, I can call debuffs, heals etc. with no issue just by watching raid frames/boss mods this doesn't affect my taking ability in any way, and Watching positioning on the few fights I am able have never given me trouble either.

However, being a "raid leader" is not, or does not have to be a dictatorship, in order to be successful as a guild or raid leader you must learn to delegate. The fact that I can watch positioning from my wife's computer next to me makes this much easier as well.

[Oda]

I'm the main raid leader for my guild, meaning that I always run our progression boss attempts. I lay down the strat, do assignments, etc., but there are two guys who also lead raids on farm nights (or when I'm gone), one healing Shaman and a Rogue, and they're usually tasked with monitoring the casters/healers and the melee, respectively.

However, I usually find myself able to watch both. Not perfectly, mind you, but having competent assistant raid leaders is a huge, huge, help, and it's enough for me to feel comfortable raid leading.

[Mesh]

In theory the best raidleader is a ranged dps class. They don't suffer from being distracted from their healing assingments (which invariably leads to staring more at the raid frames than looking at the actual encounter) and in general tend to see quite a lot more than any melee class can hope.

Thus said it still doesn't mean that your leader has to be ranged DPS. I've known several good raidleaders who played a rogue. Some healers also have a good view on what is going on in general.

As a tank you can lead a raid as well but I echo the sentiment that you have to delegate if the raid is larger than a 10 man (I did raidlead our Kara raid which was pretty easy to accomplish but in general I try to limit my responsibilities in larger raids on purpose). I'm nevertheless a kind of informal raid officer, often calling out trash assignments as well as tank assignments on bosses. But if you as MT also have to lead the whole raid (without relying on delegations), you will either burn out or perform poorly at least in one aspect of your jobs because it is certainly a great workload. I certainly couldn't coach the raid while tanking Archimonde (in fact this is one fight where I mute my headset in order to concentrate on the fight).

[nethervoid]

I would have to say with all the button mashing and UI watching that needs to be done while tanking, a tank leading the raid is not really optimal. In past games I would say it was usually a tank leading raids, and that wasn't too hard because there wasn't a lot of button mashing and crap to be done.

As far as 5 mans, I too get looked up to as the leader by default, but I really don't know enough about outlands instances yet to lead every one of them. Secondly, I can't, can't, really can't stand building groups and looking for people. I did that for years in a prior game, and I truely despise it now. To that end, I'd rather lean back on my relative rarity as a tank, and let a DPS build the group. It's lazy, but I think it's a fair trade off for the responsibility I hold once we get into the instance.

I do pugs because I have to. 80% of my guild are past normal 5 mans, and most aren't even interested in heroics since most of them are already full Kara geared, so I end up pugging about 90% of my instances without even one other guildie. Most of them are fine, although I have had to drop a group or two because one or two members of the group I'm sure are going to wipe us constantly or drop group after boss 2 (because they only want item x out of the whole instance). Screw that.

I like to lead, but I have to say after 10 years of MMOs I'm a bit burned out. lol I like to be an adviser to leadership rather than an actual leader in the trenches.

[Supremor]

Most fights are planned around what the boss does, which typically has to do with where he is tanked and which way he faces while the raiders are in a specific position relative to them.

Being a tank and the raid leader allows you to have the most direct communication to the person who has the most control over almost any given boss fight. You typically know the status of your raiders because their position or status is relative to you or the boss you are tanking.

The art of tanking also requires the tank to know about the mob they are tanking, where as dpsers typically just need to know about how to maximize themselves. (good)Tanks are also constantly aware of proactive survival, which is the primary step to learning any encounter. You have to survive to see what the boss does in order to react.

Tanks being raid leaders and in tactician roles only makes sense, not that non-tanks couldn't do it. Non-tanks would need to communicate more to get the same effect or understanding I would think.

Just my thoughts.

[EUN]

should lead the encounter.

I really don't think that should be a tank ALL the time. In fact, the best tanks tend to be the F/T tanks - not the part-timers who have memorized key press sequences. That said, those tanks won't be exposed to the various tanking styles and instance strategies that other classes see because they ARE able to bounce around with various tanks.

They see more of what works and what fails than most tanks would normally see.

NOW, if only leaders who are other classes would take the time to read-up on tanking to understand things such as don't give the tank 2 ranged targets while sheeping the melee mob when tanking the melee and sheeping the ranged would make sooooo much more sense.

THAT said, the best leader is not always the tank. It is the person with the MOST knowledge about each class and the encounters.

[Dismember]

I don't PuG at all anymore. It's one pain I just don't care to indulge in. If hard put to it, sometimes I'll take an unknown to fill a spot if my friends list is empty and not enough guildies are on/willing to run, but that's about it. Even that one unknown factor can make a run hell. Sometimes you luck out and discover a solid player, but 8 times out of 10 you turn up someone who's some degree of incompetent.

As far as raid leading as a tank goes: I've done it successfully, but I'm much more comfortable with that role being filled by a ranged class, for reasons that have already been mentioned (generally better placement, less demands on their attention, etc.) . Maybe it's my lack of proficiency at multitasking, but I know that if I have to divide my attention between tanking and raid leading, my tanking is not going to be 100%, and MTing is one role where you do not want to be doing less than 100%. While I do agree that competent MT's have a very good understanding of encounter tactics and mechanics through necessity, the demands of the job make it very difficult to be a good tank and a good raid leader concurrently. The challenge then becomes finding a ranged player with the same understanding and aptitude for the role.

[Gehn]

I my guild, I have been given the lead role in all raids and instances. This was due to my knack for going out and finding the information. Our first few instances together would be wipe, wipe, wipe, me go look for info, win. It has stuck.

In our raids (granted, only 10 man), I call out strats in the beginning of fight. But I leave in fight issues to one of our casters (usually a lock) who is able to see almost everything. Locks dont do anything but tab dot anyway, right? =P