[Zelgius]

If my guild only runs Sunwell does it make sense to skip anticipation and parry talents for other things?

This would cause damage shield to proc a lot more often because the only situation it does NOT proc is when the hit is completely avoided. This would also make me less likely to get rage starved from avoiding strings of attacks and my healers should still notice me being easier to heal given that even if I skip these talents, I still have a net avoidance gain with the removal of sunwell radiance.

What do you think?

[madocks]

I think by reducing your parry and dodge by 10% your being silly. Threat is hardly an issue in 3.0. I dont see the benefit of doing as you mentioned.

Also we are no longer rage starved, im in T6 and was full rage while tanking a kara boss on the PTR

10% is a huge figure, im sure your healers wont want to read this

[Zelgius]

For arguments sake lets say before this patch I had 50% avoidance.

With the removal of Sunwell Radiance, that puts me at 75%.

I lost about 5% avoidance from the reitemization, that puts me at 70%

What I am proposing is dodging and parrying 10% less attacks so that damage shield can proc more and I can spend those 10 points elsewhere.

So essentially, with a 10% gain in avoidance over what they were previously healing, why would my healers have a right to complain that I'm not avoiding 20% more instead?

I understand that threat shouldn't be an issue, but I'd prefer to start at maximum threat and work my way back to a level that seems right. Rather than spec for complete mitigation/avoidance and then add threat if I need to.

It's simply a different approach I guess. I really want to see what the best TPS I can get is right now, and I see no downside besides my healers being able to slack even more than they can with this change.

[madocks]

It also means you could possibly bring 1 less healer to certain encounters and stack the dps in.

I have just over 70% avoidance excluding radiance, I tanked the first horse boss in kara and was never rage starved

The raid was never threat capped, i was miles ahead on threat.

There is no real viable exscuse how you can drop 10% avoidance, whether its to check your "TPS", or stopping the healers slacking. Our job is to take as little dmg as possible to stabalise the raid.

Your healers may have coped with sunwell radiance before the patch, however, also bear in mind that everyone has a new ui and new spells they are getting use too

[Zelgius]

I'm interested in the not rage starved thing. Why weren't you?

Were you heroic striking? If so, avoiding 70+% of attacks what is giving you a full rage bar?

Also having 70%+ avoidance will put a big damper on your AOE threat.

[Navlelo]

you wont be rage starved cause you'll gain a lot more rage from the auto attack damage you deal.. it also seems your rage scales better from damage taken imo.

[Sparan]

Don't listen to him. There's absolutely no reason whatsoever to waste points on more avoidance at this stage in BC. Although in reality the points spent elsewhere will primarily serve the purpose of pumping up your threat and damage (which is admittedly unnecessary), gaining a couple hundred dps and a retarded threat ceiling is still considerably more worthwhile than a bit of dodge and parry.

-No guild is ever going to drop a healer in sunwell content b/c their tank has 10% more avoidance, since there's never more than 2 or 3 healers on tanks in a given encounter and frankly you'd be an idiot to bother with major comp changes at this point anyway.

-Prot dps is becoming almost a player in net raid dps enough to warrant trying to increase it as much as possible. There were a number of bosses where I was coming comically close to the lower-end dps in our sunwell/BT clears last night.

-The content is L O L! Have fun... hit shit really hard, and consider that you're already blocking for about 30-40% more than you were before without changing a thing and have a tacit avoidance bump of at least 10% in SWP from radiance removal. Your net damage income will be extremely low and bosses die much faster, so what's a prot warrior to do besides pop coin and autoblocker, recklessness, shield block and SS crit a boss for 6k or so? :P

[Darksend]

hey sparan

Wow Web Stats


look at ur dps on teron.


full hyjal then full bt in 4 hours, don't worry about the avoidance, if you are the established main tank chances are they wont even notice how you speced and those who do will just accept you did your research and know what your doing.

[Nez]

I wouldn't hesitate to drop those at all. You avoid is pretty high as it is. And you could always add them back in if you need it, but I would be very surprised if you needed to.

[Kavtor]

I was hesitant before to drop avoidance, because every little bit helps, especially if you're not farming the zone.

But... if you've got sunwell gear, and know what you're doing, you can spend your talents where ever you want. I was tanking M'uru Sentinels as arms with out a concern in the world. I'd be pretty comfortable tanking Brutallus as arms, with out parry, so long as I was wearing my full DPS gear. (MS, revenge, SS, revenge makes for mindboggling TPS compared to what arms could do before)

[Garbid]

Aren't you forgetting diminishing returns ?

Pre3.0 you might have had 75% avoidance, but with diminishing returns they are now at least 10% less if not more. Then dropping another 10% for a bit more dps?

Well if you were farming SWP already then it probably wont matter much. I'm on the other hand new to SWP and even with all possible BT gear I'm not willing to sacrifice any avoidance just to increase chances we are getting Kiljaedan down before WotLK (and preferably some loot farming ).

[uruloki]

im starting SW. by starting i mean we killed kalec once before the nerf and killed him and brut one shots last night, with attempts at felmyst. meaning we dont have SW gear, meaning im not dropping them.

what im getting at is, if you have cleared sunwell.... you have gear enough to make up for it and it will still be easier. for us who have not... even with the huge nerf, still gotta learn execution. im gonna give my healers as much leeway as i can.

[Monad]

Source: Garbid Well if you were farming SWP already then it probably wont matter much. I'm on the other hand new to SWP and even with all possible BT gear I'm not willing to sacrifice any avoidance just to increase chances we are getting Kiljaedan down before WotLK (and preferably some loot farming ).

As someone else said earlier, Sunwell Radiance is gone now. You effectively are stepping into Sunwell w/25% more avoidance than Tanks did when it first opened. Blizz also didn't retune the bosses damage to hit harder or faster and took out Crushing's all together. In all honesty losing 10% Avoidance still puts you like 15% ahead of the Tanks that started Sunwell in 2.4. Healing seems to be alot more powerful as well, and with fights lasting less than half their original durations, healing alone covers alot of slack. Just something to consider.

Personally, I'd pick up most of the Threat talents but skip Cruelty for now. Unless you picked up some oddball talents like Imp Disarm and Cruelty you should have enough points to dump 8 in Parry/Dodge. A reasonable compromise imo.

[Dreador]

You're fine without the avoidance talents. Totally fine. I have 2 points in anticipation that I used to get further down the tree. Deflection has 0. The one mistake I made was asking one of our not-so-great healers after Archimonde if he noticed anything, he gave me a terrible answer that was irrelevant but when I mentioned I had 0 points in the parry talent he nearly flipped and I really had to lay into him and make him feel like shit for doubting I knew what I was talking about when we recruited his ass out of a Kara-only guild...Needless to say, Snarf is recruiting healers.

[Faction]

Source: Dreador You're fine without the avoidance talents. Totally fine. I have 2 points in anticipation that I used to get further down the tree. Deflection has 0. The one mistake I made was asking one of our not-so-great healers after Archimonde if he noticed anything, he gave me a terrible answer that was irrelevant but when I mentioned I had 0 points in the parry talent he nearly flipped and I really had to lay into him and make him feel like shit for doubting I knew what I was talking about when we recruited his ass out of a Kara-only guild...Needless to say, Snarf is recruiting healers.

I would disagree with your first statement. You can never give up mitigation/avoidance at any point while progressing. Even while farming content it is always better to keep your tank stats high, and since threat is no longer an issue (more so with sanctuary) its a no-brainer imo.

Right at the release of 2.4 it was agreed and discussed all around that avoidance was better in Sunwell (which lead to sunwell radiance). After 3.0 your net gain was around ~15%. Why would you want to loose it if threat is never an issue?

[Sparan]

Source: Faction Right at the release of 2.4 it was agreed and discussed all around that avoidance was better in Sunwell (LARGELY ON ACCOUNT OF sunwell radiance).

fixt. And the reason you give up mitigation in favor of damage talents is that damage is fun, and if your healers can't keep you up in even very minimal gear considering the current state of raid content in 3.0 then a little avoidance isn't going to save you from the pervasive bad that has infiltrated your guild. Oh, AND doing more damage is FUN!

[Faction]

Source: Sparan fixt. And the reason you give up mitigation in favor of damage talents is that damage is fun, and if your healers can't keep you up in even very minimal gear considering the current state of raid content in 3.0 then a little avoidance isn't going to save you from the pervasive bad that has infiltrated your guild. Oh, AND doing more damage is FUN!

Main tanks are not allowed to jeopardize the success of a raid for "fun". Atleast not in the content that is of the highest tier (Sunwell), even if it is nerfed to oblivion. Your statement suggests keeping the healing requirements same, because you want to DPS while tanking? The entire 3.0 nerf came because of healing longevity changes, so trying to keep the healing load consistent with pre 3.0 for getting high dps numbers while tanking (even if fights are shorter) is not that wise.

I think people get carried away with the number theorycraft and forget some of the more important points about tanking. Points that are mentioned in their own section in fortifications about what the role of a MT is. I quoted the post from dreador (and I did not mean to offend him in any way) because I saw his spec which gave up 8% avoidance, when his armory showed him at 19.85% dodge and 9.85% parry and he actually is suggesting others do the same for sunwell? .

I'll tell you what is fun for a MT. I tanked brutallus on my alt, which I stacked avoidance on in case I needed to tank on M'uru. At ~70% through the fight the other tank died, I taunted and jumped from my side to the other and after 3 stacks jumped back on my original side. When I had ~8-9 stacks the other tank taunted after being brezed and we still killed the boss (ohh, this was an alt raid with alt/pug healers). Bragging is not the point here because tanks like Xav run with 15% or more passive avoidance then my alt, but the point stands. As the MT should you be enjoying tanking brut alone though 8 stacks or doing 1500 dps on lolteron and subjecting your guild to that spec in Sunwell 3.0 as well?

PS: The point here is that people who have not killed KJ should not be reading this thread and thinking, right, let me drop deflection and anticipation because people at tankspot said so.

[Darksend]

im going to tank brut in my full DPS gear tonight just for fun, probably not kalec though, that stun would rip me.

honestly, if you were to twins or beyond pre 3.0, then there is no way a tank will die as long as he is crit immune, last week i never went below 80% health on brut.


remember, we already gained a 25% non diminishing avoidance with the patch so even without the avoidance talents it is still such a huge gain it does not matter if you do not get them.

armory sparan, last time i spoke to him he told me he wasnt getting the avoidance talents either, i only got natural reaction because if gives you rage when you dodge, not for the dodge itself.

p.s. to your p.s.

my friends guild killed kalec the day before the patch, the killed KJ last night. lets be serious 10% avoidance means nothing.

[Inaara]

I tanked all of Sunwell in my threat/SBV gear last week. No need for avoidance stacking via gear or talents anymore with the removal of SW radiance. Prot warriors are all about DPS now BABY! 8k SS crits on KJ are ftw.