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Old 10-05-2007, 04:51 PM
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Crits and Crushes

Z O M G! I got crit at 5xx defense! They sky is falling! You all suck!
Yep it happens. The great debate between "once in a blue moon" and increased crit chance is covered initially here. However, the most common causes of this have nothing to do with that little holy war.

You sat down
Probably the leading cause. You miskeyed, sat down, and took a crit. Best part, the exchange happened in under a second, so your computer didn't even have time to render the sit animation, in all likelihood. Oops. Unbind sit from a hotkey, or at the very least, bind it to something inconvenient to hit.

Mind control
Feral Druid. Leader of the Pack. Mind Control. Boom.

Some debuff
Twin Emperors in AQ40 were the first place we saw this. Debuff the tank's defense by 100, and the crits begin. It's happened before, it'll happen again.

But Enrage/Blood Craze triggered!
As the saying goes, what does that have to do with the price of tea in China?
We've seen many players report a bug when abilities that activate upon landing a critical strike activate inconsistently when used against a target with resilience. For instance, if a warrior has both Enrage and Blood Craze talents, only one may activate when a critical strike is prevented by resilience. This isn't a bug.

This is due to the underlying implementation for this feature. The game doesn't actually know that hit would have been a critical hit if not for resilience. Instead we've added a small chance to activate off non-crits based on resilience gear. Each ability rolls this chance separately, so they will only occur together if a player is very lucky.

I've asked for clarification to see if this is true for crits prevented by defense as well. Never got an answer.

None of the Above
99% of the time, you can trace the crit back to one of the above. Sometimes, the person who got crit swears up and down that it wasn't any of those. Maybe we're missing something. Or maybe this is the biggest piece of supporting evidence for Once in a Blue Moon. Who knows?

And now back to our regularly scheduled holy war:

Increased crit chance vs. once in a blue moon
Our old friend the Malicious Instructor from Shadow Labyrinth is the keystone for this. We've seen dozens of screenshots of people with 490, 500, 510, 525 defense taking crits from them. That's enough people that you can say okay, you all can't be retards who miskeyed and sat. I've been crit by them, and I don't even have sit bound to a hotkey. They don't mind control, so that's out, too. One: they have a higher crit chance than the average mob of their level. Two: There's always a [0.1%, 0.01%, 0.001%, 0.0000001%] chance.

One: We've got a precedent for this sort of thing - The Hellfire Warders in Magtheridon's Lair are level 72, yet they land crushing blows on raid tanks. If they can up a mob's chance to crush, they can up a mob's chance to crit.

Two: Hard to prove, harder to disprove. We see screenshots, but can't always know if there was a mind control, a debuff, you just sat down, or if there is indeed some tiny little chance anyway.

In any case, none of us have any right to be talking in absolutes. For either argument. At least until someone from Blizzard comes along and tells us one way or the other. I wouldn't hold my breath.

I am definitely biased towards increased crit chance, based on: my knowledge of programming practices; the fact that there are a far more mobs that do not crit 490+ defense tanks than mobs that do; the ones that do seem to always be the same ones; the precedent mentioned above; and the simple fact that in over 40,000 attacks (recorded in CombatMonitor) from Karazhan to Tempest Keep, I have taken zero critical hits from a world boss since I hit level 70 and specced protection for raiding (and a handful of crits from Malicious Instrictors.) Also, look at the chance: It's always small, and rarely do people give the same value. Where did you get it from, and why are you so sure of it? And finally, do you really, honestly think that Blizzard would leave this hardcoded chance in, that basically says "sorry for your luck, but random chance says it's time for a repair bill!"? For me, that's enough to sell. But, I could be wrong.



I took a crush with shield block up!
Yep, this happens, too. You look and see that crush and 1 or 2 charges left on shield the block icon. Whiskey, Tango, Foxtrot, over?

Uncrushable doesn't mean "always uncrushable"
There are exceptions

Fast hitters
Mobs that dual wield (Moroes, Prince Malchezzar, Leotheras the Blind, etc.) will chew your shield block charges fast, and you'll often take crushing blows from them.

What can I do about it?
One thing working in your favour is that since the mob is dual wielding, it is subject to the increased miss chance that all dual wielders get. This helps a lot. There are a few things that you can do to help in this scenario:

- Swap out some stamina for avoidance, so that you increase the chance of avoiding attacks while shield block is up. This makes it more likely that your shield block will last the full duration. Dual wielding bosses tend to not hit as hard as bosses that don't, so a little stamina hit shouldn't make any difference. Since the boss is hitting fast, that helps to offset the rage starvation if it was going to be an issue because of the increased avoidance.
- Put together a gear set that gives you about 80% combined dodge/parry/block. With the dual wield 24% miss chance, you won't need to use shield block at all to drop crushes from the combat table.
- Let a paladin tank. If you have a protection paladin geared to prevent crushing blows, they may be better choice
- Let a druid tank. A feral druid will take the crushes, but their huge armour and high avoidance balance it out, and they may well be easier to heal
Many hitters
Mobs with a special abilities that can be blocked (High King Maulgar, Morogrim Tidewalker, etc.) Sometimes they'll drop their Arcing Smash or whatever right between two autoattacks within the duration of Shield Block. You get Autoattack - Special Attack - Autoattack. If you block the first two, you can eat a crush on the third.

What can I do about it?

- As with fast hitters, you could swap in a bit more avoidance and hope to extend shield block more often. The drawback here is that these mobs tend to be the heavy hitters. Trading off too much health and/or armour could get you killed pretty fast. It may well be that you (and your healers) have to just suck it up and accept that crushes will sometimes get through. Bring armour potions.
- Let a druid tank. A feral druid will take the crushes, but their huge armour and high avoidance balance it out, and they may well be easier to heal
There's something about parry
Melee DPS types attacking from the front = wrong. When you parry, your swing timer for next attack is reduced by up to 40%, to a minimum of 20% of your normal swing time. We have pretty good parsing indicating that this happens for mobs as well. So, what that means is that retarded rogue standing beside you is causing the boss to eat your Shield Block charges faster and getting you crushed. Note that the parry range is about 180 degrees frontal. People can think they aren't in parry range and still get parried. Yell at your DPS to wake the hell up and pay attention. More than that, your attack followed by Sunder/Devastate/Shield Slam/Revenge can trigger parries as well. In the worst case, you can get yourself killed if the boss gets lucky on your own attacks!

What can I do about it?

- Tell your melee DPS to not be retards and get behind the mob. Even if they don't know that bosses get the attack speed benefit from parry, they should know that they're hurting their own damage output by being in front anyway. If they don't know this, replace them.
- Be ready to reposition to accommodate pets/shadowfiends/etc. Saves you the parry pain while increasing DPS, mana regen, etc, since you kindly put them behind the mob. Everyone wins.
- Expertise. Bosses have about 5.6% dodge and 12-14% parry, so you won't reduce any boss' parry chance to zero unless you stack more expertise than is wise. However, enough expertise to eliminate their dodges will reduce parries by about half, in addition to increasing your threat output. Expertise is an important tank stat.
Daze syndrome
See, the whole premise of WoW is a massive client/server system. Your computer is the client, and the WoW servers are, well, the server. Unless you're playing on the network local to your server, there is some amount of latency inherent in how long data from you gets to the server, and vice-versa. This could be anywhere from 50-300 milliseconds, depending on where you live in the world. More if something is broken between you and the server, or the server is under heavy load (shout out to old school BWL!)

So what does this have to do with daze? Well, we've all been facing a mob, or the mob's been in our frontal arc, and have taken a daze. After yelling at the screen "WTF! It was in front of me!", we get on with our gaming experience. We don't stop to consider why this happened, usually. So, what happened, you ask? Well, two things. The first is that latency. The last time you moved, the update of your position took some small but measurable amount of time to get to the server. The last time the mob moved, the update of its position took some small but measurable amount of time to get to your computer. There is also some interval that passes between position updates. It could be 10 milliseconds, it could be 1 second, it may not happen until one or the other of you actually move. It, too, is some small but measurable amount of time.

The problem now arises that your computer thinks you are here, and it thinks the mob is there. The server thinks that you are actually over here, and that the mob is actually over there. In the ideal case, both ends think that you and the mob are in the same spots, and all goes as you'd expect. Sometimes, you will get out of sync before a position update is generated and matched up at both ends. If the server thinks you're in a different spot than your computer does, and it knows the mob is here but your computer thinks it's in a different spot, then you can have a problem. That problem is, the end that determines if you are susceptible to a daze thinks your back is to the mob. Even though your computer shows you facing it. And so you take a daze, and yell "WTF! It was in front of me!", and then you get on with your gaming experience.

The sinister case of this is when you have shield block up. If, during an out of sync period where the server thinks that the mob is behind you, the combat table is recalculated without shield block and parry. Naturally, this means crushing blows are back on the table. Now we yell "WTF! Shield block was up!", and the continuance of our gaming experience now probably includes a run back from the graveyard. Oops.

What can I do about it?
Not much. Being out of sync is a simple fact of life with a client/server system with any latency. There are methods and tricks to minimise the impact of this, but it is going to bite you occasionally. As mentioned earlier, if you could play on the same local network that the server is on, you'd have something like 1 millisecond latency, and you'd never see the problem. I think Blizzard may have a problem with a LAN party in their data centres, though. Practically, the best you can do is to:

- Make sure you tank with your back to a wall to minimise the amount of forward/backward position changing that goes on while you fight.
- Make small strafing movements from time to time, to force a position sync. Doesn't have to be big, just one step to one side, then one step back to where you started.
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Old 11-02-2007, 12:50 AM
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We don't have any hard evidence that this happens for mobs as well, but we also don't have any evidence that it does not, either. It's hard to test because of network latency and such, but there's no real reason to assume that their mechanics work differently than ours (if anyone has this testing done, email me the results!)
I might test this out, it could be done on the unkillables in blasted lands. Beat one down to 1%, let it hit my paladin for half an hour to get a sure idea of it's attack speed, and then bring in my hunter's low level pet (so the mob can actually parry) and let it pound away another half an hour, and compare any increase in attacks to parries done.
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Old 11-02-2007, 01:28 AM
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I might test this out, it could be done on the unkillables in blasted lands. Beat one down to 1%, let it hit my paladin for half an hour to get a sure idea of it's attack speed, and then bring in my hunter's low level pet (so the mob can actually parry) and let it pound away another half an hour, and compare any increase in attacks to parries done.
That's interesting, I thought it was fairly widely accepted that Mobs have the same parry mechanics that we do. I have never seen or done and research so I can't provide that, but this is also the first time I've heard anyone refute it.

Will be interesting to see what you come up with.
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Old 11-02-2007, 01:40 AM
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That's interesting, I thought it was fairly widely accepted that Mobs have the same parry mechanics that we do. I have never seen or done and research so I can't provide that, but this is also the first time I've heard anyone refute it.

Will be interesting to see what you come up with.
Not necessarily to refute, but I don't know of any confirmations for it either.
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Old 11-02-2007, 02:22 AM
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Not necessarily to refute, but I don't know of any confirmations for it either.
The original post mentions that no one has confirmed or denied it with testing.

I was unaware of this, everyone talks about it as a truth.
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Old 11-02-2007, 02:38 AM
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Chances are, it'll be exactly what everyone expects, but I read that, and realized that I could account for the latency, so why not make sure?
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Old 11-02-2007, 04:31 AM
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ive been crit in PVE a total of 1 time since dinging 70 (and also having 490 def) this was in heroic arcatraz with an eredar demon type mob.

Actually the shield block was up statement is an error in the combat log, not a error in rolls. The combat log often records things in the wrong order e.g. prince malchezaar crushes you for 6000 -> Holy shield fades from you. The time stamp will be the same the order is just wrong.

With regards to crits I did a small test in BEM I went down to 475 defense and let a level 70 mob hit me for a while. 0 crits then I went to a 71 mob and also let it hit me for a while and surprise surprise crits started appearing and because my avoidance was low yes they appeared through holy shield as well. This leads me to believe that defense skill does eliminate crits because if there was a chance they would land fairly often.

After next patch it's worth noting that paladins will be a slightly better choice than druids on 'many hitters' not that they aren't already a paladin I have been speaking to on outland said they had tried morogrim with all 3 tanks. The warrior died quickly every now and then and the paladin was easier to heal but then the adds were a problem so the best soloution was a druid tank. For ages paladin tanks have said that their crushing blow removal mechanics were better but only now that uncrushable naturally for warriors is happening is that being realised by people. Supercommand and his 13k unbuffed HP pool has tanked morogrim successfully afaik which is a good example as ive seen warriors with 14.6k hp unbuffed get umm insta-gibbed..

Anyway thanks for the write up
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Old 11-02-2007, 04:57 AM
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Chances are, it'll be exactly what everyone expects, but I read that, and realized that I could account for the latency, so why not make sure?
Check out this topic:

http://www.lurkerlounge.com/forums/i...showtopic=9974

The combat log is taken from an EJ discussion, but unfortunately there's given no link.
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Old 11-02-2007, 04:58 AM
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Actually the shield block was up statement is an error in the combat log, not a error in rolls. The combat log often records things in the wrong order e.g. prince malchezaar crushes you for 6000 -> Holy shield fades from you. The time stamp will be the same the order is just wrong.
I think the problem most warriors that get crushed run into is not that they thought shield block was up, but rather that it was on cooldown and had been used up before it could be reapplied. This is where the parry theory(?) comes into play.
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Old 11-02-2007, 05:37 AM
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Parries definitely hasten mob attacks, still crunching to see if it's by the same as player attacks, sample had more parries than I was expecting, yet fewer extra attacks, so working on accounting for diminishing returns.
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