[Voldar]

I've noticed that there is quite a bit more fury warriors than arms warriors in raiding, and usually(at least on my server) arms warriors are regarded with a certain stigma that leads to then not getting into raiding guilds and being told that we are not as useful as fury warriors in a typical raid environment.

This is most apparent in the BT/MH raiding guild where I currently raid as a holy paladin and am trying to work my arms warrior into the guild since our fury warrior is leaving, however people in my guild aren't convinced of an arms warrior's worth.

To me it seems that an arms warrior can pull equivalent dps, while providing 5/5 Commanding Presence, the 2/5 Imp. Demo Shout to cancel out CoR, the availability of an extra spell interrupt and an extra OT that a Fury Warrior can provide, along with Blood Frenzy and the potential for more burst damage due to Sword Spec.

My main question is: Are arms warriors deemed less effective than fury because thats how it is in Kara through SSC/TK? Or because of some itemization/talent setup that I'm missing.

Thank you for any input.
-Voldar

[Ciderhelm]

A lot of it will be the Kara issue you bring up. Why change a spec if your guild isn't attempting to min/max? Rather, why would you even think about trying? (not you in particular, but the mentality)

The process most guilds go through in deciding to bring an Arms Warrior occurs after they've come across a boss that they're having serious DPS issues with (Gorefiend would be an example).

At this point, the guild checks the WWS output to see the rough DPS output of other melee classes and estimate how much DPS will be gained from each individual. Adding these together for a total shows the rough DPS gained from an Arms Warrior.

Now, you subtract that number from the Fury Warrior's current DPS who would be respecing Arms. The new DPS number for that Warrior is the bare minimum that Arms would have to put out to be more effective than Fury.

In most -- not all -- cases, the Arms Warrior will clearly be more effective for guilds. The guild just has to realize the option is there and the Fury Warrior has to consider taking that route.

Hopefully someone can provide more detailed numbers than me. That's just a rough outline of the process we've gone through and several other guilds have gone through.

[Voldar]

Well since you mentioned Gorefiend, I got my warrior in for Gorefiend one night, and pulled 861 dps in tank group, while the fury warrior pulled 783 in melee group (Feral druid, ret paladin, (our enh shaman was missing)). So in most cases I outdps the fury warrior, AND provide blood frenzy.

I figured most of the problems is the "Why start now?" Mentality. I'm fairly sure I will be able to work myself in if the warrior leaves, but I am putting together an argument if he doesn't, so thank you for the input.

PS. Thanks Cider for directing me to these fourms =D

[Anglachel]

i think it's also because most people think MS=PvP... they don't know that a PvE 33/28 s a lot different from a PvP arms spec... you need to make that point clear, and let them know about the benfits of BF... go through your WWS reports and do the math so you can go to your RL with hard facts to convince him...

[Voldar]

The hardest part is that my guild leader doesn't min/max, and we have a lot of physical dps that gets waitlisted so my guild leader is having a hard time justifying me swapping from a healer(we need good healers) to a role we have too much of, and the fury war had the spot before I even joined the guild. I have the guild leader convinced, the rest of the Raid Council is a little bit more of a job.

If you were curious, my armory is Here and the other warrior's is Here.

At time of post I logged out in my "PvE" Gear, which is pvp gear with a Romulo's Poison Vial and the thrown weapon from SSC Trash.

If I were to become a PvE Arms warrior, I would be going for the Shard of Contempt and a Bloodlust Brooch, because we don't run Gruul or ZA, and investing in the badge ring and stuff of that nature, so don't judge my mix-matched gear on what you see, I know its horrible. As I said my Paladin is my raider, my warrior just does Arenas.

[Corbusier]

Source: Voldar Well since you mentioned Gorefiend, I got my warrior in for Gorefiend one night, and pulled 861 dps in tank group, while the fury warrior pulled 783 in melee group (Feral druid, ret paladin, (our enh shaman was missing)).

Those numbers sound extremely low for Gorefiend. I pulled 1600 dps the first time there, our arms warrior was over 1400...

That was with an Enh Shaman, but that's still a difference of over 500dps, which is far beyond what a shaman adds.

Also: sell Romulo's Poison Vial the next time you log in.

[Voldar]

I only use the poison vial to get hit capped, I hate having to use it.

Oh, and as far as MY dps goes, this was before I got my S3 sword and Dory's Embrace, I had a Stormherald, but that doesn't explain the whole dps difference, not sure why mine was so low. I have no excuses for the fury warrior, I'm fairly convinced he doesn't know what he is doing =P

Nobody in my guild pulls 1200+ dps consistently, except for one hunter who usually hits 1700 and a lock who usually gets close to 1800.

As I said, we are a casual guild that happens to be in BT, we only have 3 raids a week for 3 hours a day.

My warrior's dps gear is all strength gems except for 2 4crit/4str gems to hold the meta, with 518 armor pen. All my gear is S3 with S2 shoulders and my S3 sword, not exactly itemized properly, makes me resort to using stuff like the poison vial to get 142 hit. My build is 33/28, and my ping hovers around 150ms.

Any ideas to increase my dps that don't involve getting BT/MH gear are welcome.


... That, right there, told me why my dps is low. Arms is superior with BT gear and I don't have it yet.

So obvious...

[Voldar]

Another thing I realized thats lowering my dps is my 24AP/Runspeed Meta, so I can have Surefooted for Pvp, instead of having the 12agi/3 crit damage/12 agi combo.

I appreciate all of the responses BTW.

[Nebaku]

I am also in a 3 a week guild, doing BT and Hyjal.

If you are in the raid, you contribute 1 improved shout, either health or Attack power(if they put you in the Melee group.) You also have the raid wide 4% physical damage increase.

If you are in the melee group, chances are you will be in the top 5 dpsers.
If you are not in the melee group, you can be anywhere from there to the tanks.

I was running some numbers from Improved Demoralizing shout, and even my Blood Frenzy, and they make a significant difference to say the least.

If you are out dpsing the fury warrior, while he is in the Melee group, and you are not, in a fight like Teron(unless he was ghosted) then that is a serious issue.

I wish you luck in taking his spot in the raid. Or give him an ultimatum, he needs to be popping more consumables or fixing his rotation or something.

[Graul]

Source: Ciderhelm A lot of it will be the Kara issue you bring up. Why change a spec if your guild isn't attempting to min/max? Rather, why would you even think about trying? (not you in particular, but the mentality) The process most guilds go through in deciding to bring an Arms Warrior occurs after they've come across a boss that they're having serious DPS issues with (Gorefiend would be an example). At this point, the guild checks the WWS output to see the rough DPS output of other melee classes and estimate how much DPS will be gained from each individual. Adding these together for a total shows the rough DPS gained from an Arms Warrior. Now, you subtract that number from the Fury Warrior's current DPS who would be respecing Arms. The new DPS number for that Warrior is the bare minimum that Arms would have to put out to be more effective than Fury. In most -- not all -- cases, the Arms Warrior will clearly be more effective for guilds. The guild just has to realize the option is there and the Fury Warrior has to consider taking that route. Hopefully someone can provide more detailed numbers than me. That's just a rough outline of the process we've gone through and several other guilds have gone through.

This should show something. The raid makeup isn't identical either. On the Fury parse we had a Ret Paladin but no SV Hunter. For Arms, we had both. Still though, the similarities in damage is scary, especially when you consider BF added 700 more DPS to the raid.

Fury: Wow Web Stats
Arms: Wow Web Stats

Note how many Slams were used the entire night.