New warrior ability: Call of War
Posted 10-29-2009 at 03:04 AM by Zellviren
[Wish I could post this to the US forums where the developers might actually see it. >.<]
After going through Ghostcrawler's post on "Hybrid tax", I wanted to share a notion that hit me and may get missed by those who read a bit of the mentioned thread and ignored the rest, or who simply didn't click it for having the notion "not again"...
Basically, the argument is that hybrids must have a form of performance tax in order to make sure pures don't get rubbed out of the game. That's fine. It's also posited that hybrids should have excellent utility in order to stop THEM from declining. Ignoring the rest of the points previously made, the warrior is the one hybrid class that is badly lacking in attractive utility for a raid setting because they lack buffs. Most buffs have been spread around a bit in order to promote the "player not class" mantra, but as warriors are doing slightly less DPS than a pure and have no real buffs of note, the question is why you'd take a warrior to a raid.
Let's argue warriors need a raid wide buff.
Let's also note that "shouts" are the compelling method of buff for the developers.
Let's finally spot the one excellent buff that is in the game and only provided by a single class; thus, could do with more representation.
We then finally arrive at the new warrior ability for Cataclysm - Call of War.
Call of War (30 rage):
Increases melee, ranged, and spell casting speed by 30% for all party and raid members. Lasts 40 sec. After the completion of this effect, those affected will become Sated and unable to benefit from Call of War again for 10 min.
Look familiar?
It should.
All of a sudden, one terrific buff is spread out a little (making one class less mandatory) and warriors get the utility that they otherwise crave.
[The following was what I posted in response to other authors.]
I'm glad to see most people think this is a good idea and that the "lol warz fine nub l2p" brigade have left it alone; getting a bit bored with those people, to be honest.
I actually did a bit of a guild chat last night regarding this and even those who've listened to my QQ about warriors in the past agreed that the notion was both fair and fitting. We discussed what buffs people think are generally the best and, yep, you guessed it:
Blessing of Kings
Gift of the Wild
Bloodlust
A few people like Prayer of Fortitude a lot, but that's more for the "look at my health" factor as opposed to an increase in performance. The other one that continually came up was, of course, combat ressurection. The problem, of course is that there's something of a pattern here.
The hybrids with more than two available raid specs seem to also be the ones with the best buffs. I'm struggling to see how this can be considered reasonable from a balance point of view. As hinted in my original post, I think the 5% tax (simple number) across all hybrids is reasonably fair to avoid druids being next to useless in every environment. However, that is on the understanding that hybrids also bring that "additional" utility to a raid that is currently seeing priests, death knights and warriors (the latter two particularly) somewhat short changed.
And when you consider that druids, the only four-role class in the game, have got both Gift of the Wild AND Rebirth, I don't see how the developers can justify this argument on the utility of hybrids being used to balance them out.
Warriors need something to bring to a raid because they lack any kind of unique buffs or additional utility. None of the hybrids can do anything other than what they're specced for in the current raid environment for Wrath of the Lich King. The developers have also been keen to make sure no class becomes "mandatory" for an encounter, but ask anyone who's ever raided if they like to go without a shaman; they don't.
Bloodlust needs another class to represent it.
Warriors lack raid utility badly and are the obvious choice for a Bloodlust variant.
Let's see it done, Blizzard.
P.S - I think the combat ressurection should also see another class represent it and, in my view, a priest is the obvious choice, with the spell taking the form of a prayer. Just thought I'd throw that in there, because it seems a bit odd that the only class with two healing trees doesn't have combat ressurection.
After going through Ghostcrawler's post on "Hybrid tax", I wanted to share a notion that hit me and may get missed by those who read a bit of the mentioned thread and ignored the rest, or who simply didn't click it for having the notion "not again"...
Basically, the argument is that hybrids must have a form of performance tax in order to make sure pures don't get rubbed out of the game. That's fine. It's also posited that hybrids should have excellent utility in order to stop THEM from declining. Ignoring the rest of the points previously made, the warrior is the one hybrid class that is badly lacking in attractive utility for a raid setting because they lack buffs. Most buffs have been spread around a bit in order to promote the "player not class" mantra, but as warriors are doing slightly less DPS than a pure and have no real buffs of note, the question is why you'd take a warrior to a raid.
Let's argue warriors need a raid wide buff.
Let's also note that "shouts" are the compelling method of buff for the developers.
Let's finally spot the one excellent buff that is in the game and only provided by a single class; thus, could do with more representation.
We then finally arrive at the new warrior ability for Cataclysm - Call of War.
Call of War (30 rage):
Increases melee, ranged, and spell casting speed by 30% for all party and raid members. Lasts 40 sec. After the completion of this effect, those affected will become Sated and unable to benefit from Call of War again for 10 min.
Look familiar?
It should.
All of a sudden, one terrific buff is spread out a little (making one class less mandatory) and warriors get the utility that they otherwise crave.
[The following was what I posted in response to other authors.]
I'm glad to see most people think this is a good idea and that the "lol warz fine nub l2p" brigade have left it alone; getting a bit bored with those people, to be honest.
I actually did a bit of a guild chat last night regarding this and even those who've listened to my QQ about warriors in the past agreed that the notion was both fair and fitting. We discussed what buffs people think are generally the best and, yep, you guessed it:
Blessing of Kings
Gift of the Wild
Bloodlust
A few people like Prayer of Fortitude a lot, but that's more for the "look at my health" factor as opposed to an increase in performance. The other one that continually came up was, of course, combat ressurection. The problem, of course is that there's something of a pattern here.
The hybrids with more than two available raid specs seem to also be the ones with the best buffs. I'm struggling to see how this can be considered reasonable from a balance point of view. As hinted in my original post, I think the 5% tax (simple number) across all hybrids is reasonably fair to avoid druids being next to useless in every environment. However, that is on the understanding that hybrids also bring that "additional" utility to a raid that is currently seeing priests, death knights and warriors (the latter two particularly) somewhat short changed.
And when you consider that druids, the only four-role class in the game, have got both Gift of the Wild AND Rebirth, I don't see how the developers can justify this argument on the utility of hybrids being used to balance them out.
Warriors need something to bring to a raid because they lack any kind of unique buffs or additional utility. None of the hybrids can do anything other than what they're specced for in the current raid environment for Wrath of the Lich King. The developers have also been keen to make sure no class becomes "mandatory" for an encounter, but ask anyone who's ever raided if they like to go without a shaman; they don't.
Bloodlust needs another class to represent it.
Warriors lack raid utility badly and are the obvious choice for a Bloodlust variant.
Let's see it done, Blizzard.
P.S - I think the combat ressurection should also see another class represent it and, in my view, a priest is the obvious choice, with the spell taking the form of a prayer. Just thought I'd throw that in there, because it seems a bit odd that the only class with two healing trees doesn't have combat ressurection.
Total Comments 13
Comments
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Warlocks have a form of combat rez as well. It's also worth noting that while warriors are rather short on the buff scale, they provide excellent melee buffs in the form of boss debuffs. 20% armor reduction is no joke, and if you're Arms you get Trauma and Blood Frenzy propping up the melee as well. Fury gives a 5% crit buff to the melee. Both can give commanding shout improved, which if I remember correctly does more hp than any similar buff. Bloodlust does need to be given to another class, but claiming that warriors bring nothing to the table is silly.Posted 10-29-2009 at 03:44 AM by Petninja
- Actually I think warriors are quite good as far as buffs and utility go. We have shouts, which can be talented and Commanding stacks with other stamina buffs. We have Sunder, in common with rogues. DPS specs provide some raid buff and if you're a somewhat redundant extra tank you still bring spell reflect and vigilance.
Your bloodlust style buff would suit warriors well I think, should developers feel we need a buff.
Another kind of buff that might suit warriors is a sort of sacrifice, where you take a lot of damage for a short time instead of a party member. Giving us that would make us too similar to paladins though.Posted 10-29-2009 at 04:05 AM by Machus -
Re:
Petninja,
In a world of min-maxing, rogues are the better choice here. They are bringing Expose Armor and Blood Frenzy, as well as doing more damage because they're a pure class. Trauma is also better applied by a feral because, if damage is equal (it's not), you get Gift of the Wild and Rebirth thrown into the mix, as well as Leader of the Pack in the same spec.Quote:It's also worth noting that while warriors are rather short on the buff scale, they provide excellent melee buffs in the form of boss debuffs...
I know what I'd choose as a raid leader.
It overwrites Blood Pact which is passive and doesn't require the wasting of resources or a GCD. And again, the warlock does more DPS, can Soulstone as you mentioned, can buff caster DPS with Curse of the Elements and also provides health stones. Take the warlock.Quote:Both can give commanding shout improved, which if I remember correctly does more hp than any similar buff.
Yet sadly accurate.Quote:Bloodlust does need to be given to another class, but claiming that warriors bring nothing to the table is silly
Machus,
I covered most of what you said above, but on Spell Reflect and Vigilance: the former doesn't actually work on the vast majority of bosses, while the latter is to make up for sub-par threat, otherwise.Quote:Actually I think warriors are quite good as far as buffs and utility go... spell reflect and vigilance.
And I agree with your notion of the sacrifice talent, but it's already covered and is, in many ways, something Vigilance "could" have been.Posted 10-29-2009 at 04:41 AM by Zellviren - I think that something many people do not appreciate that blizzard have given warriors is shattering throw!!!
"oh noes! but i has to change stance to use that!!" says all but the arms warrior. so what? Ever play before wotlk? now-a-days fear? whats that for a warrior? back then timing of stance change was all in minimising problems caused by fear! but i've gone off subject.
Hit battle stance and put up a shattering throw during heroism (unless your MT ofc, probably a bit risky) and BAM physical dps are kicking some serious numbers! To give us heroism + shattering throw will just make us THE go to nuke class! running a 10 man sarth zerg team?? one warrior will increase dps more than anythign else!
Commanding shout needs a buff in duration imo. Sunder armor is an amazing raid buff, thunderclap/demo shout can be provided by others but no other class (i think) can provide BOTH as aoe.
Warriors need a buff? nope, just need people to utilise them properly.Posted 10-29-2009 at 07:09 AM by Daishan12 - Feral druids don't pay a hybrid tax. They are and have been one of the top DPS classes of Wotlk.Posted 10-29-2009 at 07:51 AM by Hamburglar
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While I don't disagree that spreading Bloodlust around would be a good thing, I don't think that warrior buffs are that bad.
We have the best armor reduction debuff in the game with Sunder Armor, Trauma, Blood Frenzy, Rampage, Battle Shout (for the rare situation where there's no paladin), the unique buff of Commanding Shout, Vigilance, Thunderclap, Improved Demo Shout.
On top of that, I think for interesting fights like Faction Champs, prot warriors have one of the biggest toolboxes in the game. They have 4 stuns, unprecedented mobility, an AoE fear, a snare, a 2 silence effects, an offensive dispel, and taunt.
Really, as far as group utility, I don't think warriors have it too bad. That's not to say that your Bloodlust idea has no merit, just that I think we're doing alright.Posted 10-29-2009 at 08:42 AM by Reev 
- Taking someone else's damage for a time? You mean like Intervene?Quote:Originally Posted by Machus
Actually I think warriors are quite good as far as buffs and utility go. We have shouts, which can be talented and Commanding stacks with other stamina buffs. We have Sunder, in common with rogues. DPS specs provide some raid buff and if you're a somewhat redundant extra tank you still bring spell reflect and vigilance.
Your bloodlust style buff would suit warriors well I think, should developers feel we need a buff.
Another kind of buff that might suit warriors is a sort of sacrifice, where you take a lot of damage for a short time instead of a party member. Giving us that would make us too similar to paladins though.Posted 10-29-2009 at 08:47 AM by Reev - Very nice idea Zellviren.
As for the combat resurrection, it definitely makes sense and would help out a lot to have priests be able to resurrect.
However, as farfetched as this may possibly seem, what about Death Knights? I know we don't need it, but I think DK's should get some kind of ability where they can come back to life (similar to Raise Ally). They don't necessarily have to come back to life with full power, but something closer to an Undead/Ghoul (might make it pointless for tanking unless something about our resurrected self was buffed). Perhaps something to do with Frost self-preserving the body (sounds like Icebound Fortitude), Blood reanimating it, and Unholy putting everything together. That would be great and fits in with the theme of Death Knights, although, yes, there are many contradictions to this.
Ultimately, though, priest is the way to go for another self-resurrection class.Posted 10-29-2009 at 11:50 AM by keebz -
I think that sunder armor on warriors is a pretty big bonus. The fact that it is so easily integrated with most rotations (prot and fury) make it infinitely useful. I would personally like them to remove the dead zone from intervene so that it's more applicable. Feral dr00ds would immediately benefit.
At times I do agree with your underlying sentiment about our utility, however thats the trade off for being good at everything but a master of nothing.Posted 10-29-2009 at 12:24 PM by Khue - Death Knights do have a talent they can spec into to come back alive as a ghoul.
Oh on second thought I just looked it up, when did they remove that from the unholy tree.Posted 10-29-2009 at 12:55 PM by mandible - While warriors certainly could benefit from a slight buff from a raid utility point of view. I, like many others have done already, would argue that we really are not that bad off.
Though I can see how it would seem that way. One problem with the warrior class is that it has been designed from its very inception to be incredibly versatile, as far as one of the only two pure melee classes in the game can go. The problem with this is it's rather difficult to actually utilize all of that versatility in a raid setting unless you are seriously on your toes.
Of course there's the standard buffs/debuffs that all warriors should provide as baseline. But there's alot more a warrior can do through the course of a fight that many often don't. For instance, the most overlooked utility of warriors, in my opinion, is raid aggro management. As a prot warrior, when I'm not actively tanking an encounter, I'm providing the baseline buffs/debuffs for whoever is tanking, switching my vigilance target to whatever DPS happens to be creeping up, as well as intervening as often as possible. When done in this manner, Intervene is twice as effective as Hand of Salvation, not including Vigilance. A well timed intervene on a MT can also save a raid.
We're one of the few classes that can actively and effectively disarm a boss, and even provide a nice damage increase if talented for it. This ability alone is invaluable for fights like Gormok.
Long and short of it: Baseline, warriors appear to need help. And another class with a Bloodlust buff is necessary, and the warrior seems the most logical class. This would also add a new and appealing dimension to the class. However, a skillfully played warrior is not so sorely in need of a buff as it may appear. We are plenty versatile, and bring lots of utility, but in our own unique way. And that's just the way any warrior worth his/her salt likes it, and would like to keep it.Posted 10-29-2009 at 03:55 PM by Nilirai - Well, Intervene is very specific. You protect a specific ally from a specific mob for 1-2 swings, and it needs a minimum range. I don't use it that much now that we have Charge, Intercept, and ranged Taunt anyway.Quote:Originally Posted by Reev Taking someone else's damage for a time? You mean like Intervene?
What I was thinking of is some sort of talent that follows from Last Stand and redirects some fraction of the damage from nearby party members to yourself while Last Stand is active, similar to the way Spell Reflect works without specific targeting. That would be similar to a Paladin ability though.Posted 10-30-2009 at 04:14 AM by Machus - The original arguement is well put out, thoughtful and put forward in a nice way. Would be nice to see it go through, and if it triggered the same exaustion, I don't really see it as an OP move. It would be fun in Battlegrounds though.
Strangely enough I already play a shaman and "The H button" (alliance) is more of an annoyance then an "omg I have the powa" deal. In fact, it doesn't even benefit my shammy, being resto. Meanwhile when you're the MT warrior, you're watching boss abilities like a hawk to the point when you're probably used to counting out the space between abilities in your head better then DBM keeps track. I think it'd be fun to be able to "make the call."
And please, I hope the commenters that actually play warriors stop prattling with each other over how 'fine' the class is or use it as a match to claim how good they are. You don't have to use the power if you don't want it. It's this self-defeating of ideas that promotes class stagnency. While other classes twist and develop, to have the class I enjoy playing stuck in time just makes the game less fun. I mean, it's fine if you're at the pinnacle of your game right now and you want your 'glory days' to never end. However, if you really are a good player - you can cope and excel with change. If you can't, then you're just a one-hit wonder who's scared when confronted with the end of their 15 minutes of fame.
Now, enough of my pleading for sense, just keep it simple. It's a suggestion, for a buff. Let the devs be the ones to say "no, and here's why."Posted 10-30-2009 at 12:06 PM by Conreeaght
