Why can't 10-man players craft gear too?
Posted 10-22-2009 at 10:49 AM by veneretio
Quote:
@veneretio I bet the blacksmithing stuff will make me grump again. No one tosses any crafting bones to 10-man raiders. :/
She's got a point.
Why shouldn't patterns drop in 10s?
Now my immediate response to this used to be that it didn't make sense for 10 man raiders to have all ilvl 232 items dropping and then a boss randomly drops an ilvl 245 pattern. It'd be kind of silly after all if the first boss in Ulduar could drop a pattern for better gear than the final boss in Ulduar.
But, why does it have to be this way?
Why can't there be a set of 25 man level patterns and a set of 10 man level patterns. Wouldn't it make sense to have say 25 man level leg patterns and 10 man level wrist patterns? You could even make it so the mats were 8 of the "super iron" for the 25 man and 2 of the "super iron" for the 10 man loot. Naturally, "super iron" would be much more scarce in 10s than in 25s, but since the requirements for the patterns would be lower, it'd all balance out in the end.
Even better still, 10 man raiders could save up to craft 25 man gear overtime. Sure, it would take a while, but they could do it. And even if Blizzard didn't want that happening, it's not like they couldn't create "almost super iron" for 10s that was usable for crafting only the 10 man gear. Force 25 man raiders to actually do the 10 man if they want to craft 10 man loot.
Seems fair enough to me.
What do you guys and gals think?
Total Comments 19
Comments
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In a response that will surprise no one, I say 'Hell to the yeah!'. As someone who only raids 10-mans, blacksmithing is the profession that gives me extra sockets and lets me craft rods for enchanters, belt buckles for raiders and Titansteel gear for new 80s. That's it. I have absolutely zero opportunity of ever learning anything else. I had to go to a 25-man raider Blacksmith to get my Spiked Deathdealers.
I don't want the ability to make BiS gear. However, very nice pieces of gear of the appropriate ilevel of 10-man gear would be awesome. Blizzard knows how to do it, after all they deliver the same kind of ilevel gear differences at Onyxia and Trial of the Crusader.
This affects all professions that get drops like that in raids, mostly tailors, leatherworkers, blacksmiths. Toss me a bone.Posted 10-22-2009 at 10:58 AM by Kadomi 
- I have to say that overall, I'm terribly disappointed with crafting professions in WOTLK. There was a much wider range of patterns available, in instances and as world drops in BC, than there seems to be available now. Also, the fact that specialization (e.g. Dragonscale LW) was completely ignored is irritating.
I agree that something more is needed.Posted 10-22-2009 at 11:16 AM by Bashal - I agree 100%, though as someone who hadn't really gotten any progression in Ulduar even, I didn't know they didn't drop patterns, so it was kind of a surprise to learn that. And I agree with Bashal, when Wrath launched Blizzard said "We're not done with Professions yet, there will be more to come" (then never went back and fixed that)
Wtf happened to "We'll release it when it's done" if they keep this up Expansion 4 will be released 6 months after Cataclysm and only half the textures will be filled in, and there won't even BE professions past 550(?)Posted 10-22-2009 at 11:29 AM by Valalvax - I've been pushing this exactly in the 10/25 thread in the General Discussion forum. To me, this is one of the details that irritates the hell out of me about the current implementation of 10 vs 25-man raiding.
I don't care about the 13 ilvl loot difference. I do care about having to either run 25s to get the patterns, or pay a 25-man raider through the nose to craft stuff. Oh, sure, I can get those patterns in 10-man hardmode, but, why should I have to? 25-mans can get them in pugs, even.
Blizzard did a good job with the split, I think. I love the 10-man format. Now, I'd like them to finish polishing my progression path, so I don't feel like such a red-headed stepchild sometimes.Posted 10-22-2009 at 11:57 AM by mavfin - People would still complain that "Legplates of Super Iron" plans don't drop in 10-man. =/ They'll be happy for a little while at the new bone thrown their way, but it'll fade.
Lets be honest, folks won't be completely happy until both paths of progression are completely identical.
Pugs can get them in 10-man heroic too. It's not as though the 10-man heroic is all that hard, you're making it sound like some insurmountable barrier to patterns.Quote:25-mans can get them in pugs, even.
Did I mention the patterns are BoE, also?Posted 10-22-2009 at 11:59 AM by Bovinity
Updated 10-22-2009 at 12:06 PM by Bovinity - 10 man and 25 man gear differences are stupid. The fights are equal in difficulty, often being more difficult on 10 mans if anything. 25 man raiders think 10 mans are a joke because they outgear it.
Make them share loot and raid lockouts and solve every problem. Except the self-proclaimed "Elite" players who will cry about 10 mans being too easy, blah blah blah, bringing 10 superb people is easier than bringing 10 superb and 15 okay people.
The whole system is @%(&ed.Posted 10-22-2009 at 12:43 PM by Ferag - Patterns do drop in 10 man, though. I know I'm not mistaken because we just had the Merlin's Robes and two Bracers of Swift Death patterns drop in our 10 man last night.
Posted 10-22-2009 at 02:04 PM by Rak 
- 10-man hardmodes, yes. 25-man mouthbreathing puggies can get them in normal.
Posted 10-22-2009 at 06:06 PM by mavfin - @Bovinity: That is such a flawed argument, that the patterns are BoE. Why should I pay thousands of gold for a blacksmithing plan that any 25-man raider can just get as a drop? Also, would you still say 'Pfft, just pug 25-man heroics' if those plans only dropped in heroic/hardmodes for 25-man raiders?
I strictly raid 10-mans. I don't want identical progression. None of my raiders want identical progression. I just want some fairness and some use for my chosen profession as blacksmith.Posted 10-23-2009 at 01:37 AM by Kadomi - There should be some kind of reward for doing 25 mans. This should remain as one of those few differences
Posted 10-23-2009 at 09:32 AM by hbombs - And this is where the conversation decends into elitsim and spirals until Godwin's Law is observed. I was hoping to get this in before the mad rush, but I agree with Vene. Something should (have) be(en) done.
Getting back to the roots of this conversation, I don't think 232 patterns of bracers and chestpieces would be too much to ask that have similar allocated stats on smaller budgets with slightly less orb costs (or heck, make them obscure, I lost some players when I mentioned "un'goro power crystals" the other day.)
P.S. and when is engineering going to get more then simply a nut tightened here and there and something worth being a warrior-tank-engineer in pve content for??? (any arguement that mentions jeeves is null due to the proximity of repairs nowadays compared to classic raid)Posted 10-23-2009 at 10:30 AM by Conreeaght - Exactly why should there be a reward for doing 25 mans? It's not more difficult. A prime example of this is the Faction Champions fight. Sarth 3D is another example. Just about everything about 25 mans is easier. You have more people - meaning a couple people die... No problem. You have more buffs, more battle rezzes, more ahnks; the list goes on.Quote:Originally Posted by hbombs
There should be some kind of reward for doing 25 mans. This should remain as one of those few differences
And yes, I have raided (with the exception of ToGC 25) every raid in WotLK so far on 10 and 25. The 25 mans have mostly been semi-pugs.Posted 10-23-2009 at 12:58 PM by Ferag - @Farag:
What do you really mean by 25 mans being easier?
From a single player standpoint, you will perform (press buttons) the same way in a 10man as you would in a 25. Encounters have mechanics that require certain amounts of damage from each member of the raid. Average DPS required to down Beasts in 10 man is far lower, per player, than 25 [talkin' heroic here]. Forcing players to perform better (or wipe) sounds like a different level of difficulty to me. Surely there are exceptions to the rule, like S3D, but thats hardly grounds to say that 25-man raiding is easier than 10.
Granted - pressing buttons in 10 man is the same as pressing buttons in 25... but creating a stable 25 man raid with optimal synergy multiple nights per week with players who are focused is much more challenging than 10-man content. If you tried - you'd know.
@veneretio:
Sorry to focus on something off-topic - but I agree with you.Posted 10-23-2009 at 05:59 PM by Fishz - they absolutely do drop in 10-man... you have a chance to get them starting with the very first boss you down on heroic, just like 10-man ulduar hardmodes dropped the patterns.
10-man 245 content gives you 245 patterns, and that makes sense to me. i can't see any good arguement why they should drop in ez mode.Posted 10-23-2009 at 07:44 PM by marklar -
@marklar: If they shouldn't drop in ez mode 10s, should they drop in ez mode 25s?
@Ferag: Yes, a few fights are harder in 10s, but certainly not all. Faction Champions we found much easier in 10 man. Yogg certainly was far easier 10 man. Thaddius, Patchwerk and Kel'thuzad. Hodir, Mimiron and especially Thorim are all way easier in 10s. The list goes on.
10s are less forgiving of mistakes at times, but the situations are also easier to deal with on average. And even the unforgiving situations can be trivialize at times by a Druid heavy group or just a group with disgusting dps.
I can't tell from your comment whether you've done Ulduar HMs or not. But if you haven't try comparing the 10s and 25s for those, I think you'll find that there's a dramatic difference between the 10s and 25s.Posted 10-23-2009 at 08:37 PM by veneretio - I believe I gave a bunch of reasons why 25 mans are easier, pertaining to the amount of people in the raid. Yes, the DPS requirement per person is higher. If it wasn't, 25 mans would be the biggest joke WoW has ever seen. You get better gear, you should do more DPS! Doing the regular modes (what the majority of people do) 25 mans are far easier than 10s due to simple raid composition (every buff covered, lots of battle resses, ahnks, etc).Quote:Originally Posted by Fishz @Farag:
What do you really mean by 25 mans being easier?
From a single player standpoint, you will perform (press buttons) the same way in a 10man as you would in a 25. Encounters have mechanics that require certain amounts of damage from each member of the raid. Average DPS required to down Beasts in 10 man is far lower, per player, than 25 [talkin' heroic here]. Forcing players to perform better (or wipe) sounds like a different level of difficulty to me. Surely there are exceptions to the rule, like S3D, but thats hardly grounds to say that 25-man raiding is easier than 10.
Granted - pressing buttons in 10 man is the same as pressing buttons in 25... but creating a stable 25 man raid with optimal synergy multiple nights per week with players who are focused is much more challenging than 10-man content. If you tried - you'd know.
I have always said that the only thing more difficult in a 25 man than a 10 man is making the raid up; getting 25 people with the correct amount of chromosomes together at a certain time to raid. Proportionately (gear dropping vs. raw output requirement), 25 mans are very equal to 10 mans. Some 10 man fights are more difficult due to the number of NPCs against the number of players (most notably S3D and Faction Champions). Some 25 man fights are more difficult because most guilds carry 1-6 people.
Edit to respond to the above comment: I have said many times that 25 man raiders find 10s trivial because they outgear the place. On Firefighter 25, people can die (assuming appropriate gear level). Firefighter 10, nobody can die until P4 (assuming appropriate gear level). Thaddius 25 is a good example of retards %(&@ing up the raid. As for the other fights; read above about outgearing things and making things trivial.Posted 10-23-2009 at 08:48 PM by Ferag
Updated 10-23-2009 at 08:52 PM by Ferag (Response to above comment.) - My mage is a tailor and my warrior isn't a blacksmith. For either character, I'm not too bothered where the patterns drop. Unless I'm exceptionally lucky, I'm not going to see a pattern drop, win the roll, and then craft for myself an item that I need. In all likelihood I'd have to find someone else to craft the thing I need, and if that's an exclusive reward for 25-man raiders, yeah fine. It was that way in BC. I didn't raid BT or Sunwell, but I was able to get things crafted. In WLK both patterns (I think) and items are BoE, so this is easier.
What I am bothered about is the cost of the resources. Crafted items work well at the extremes of content, meaning upon release to get you started, or after the last raid of the expansion is released when there's nothing better coming. In the middle of WLK, at the rate content is coming out, crafting is not worth the time to farm gold. I made the mistake of carfting some Ulduar item at a total cost of over 4k, to have it replaced in a couple of weeks in TotC 10. I wouldn't pay more than about 2k to upgrade a 232 to a 245, since Icecrown seems to be round the corner.
What I think is missing is orbs dropping in 10-mans, not patterns. If we got some orbs from our 10-man clears we could upgrade to 245 craftables gradually without it feeling like a grind. I guess I'm just arguing for the price of orbs to be a little lower.Posted 10-23-2009 at 09:43 PM by Machus -
Well, with Ilevel 245 gear you outgear the place so ToC 10 should drop crafted Ilevel 232 patterns with runed orbs as orb. Then ToC 10 would reward the apprioriate patterns.Posted 10-25-2009 at 07:21 PM by orcstar - Power to the 10mans!
As for the 25m vs 10m debate, as a 10man raider the thing I hate most of all is the only 25man guild on our server looks down on us because we're only a 10man guild. Yet all of the players in my guild are equal or better then those in their guild.
Personally I've seen most of the 25man fights and I don't see too much of a difficulty increase. I see an increase in co-ordination, but actual skill, not really.Posted 10-25-2009 at 08:27 PM by Eraser
