How Role affects Raid Leader
Posted 02-10-2009 at 12:01 PM by veneretio
I was pondering, how myself being a Tank affects how I implement raid strategies. Here's how things seem to play out in my raid.
Tanks: Are given very logical jobs that are often a more challenging way of doing things allowing strong tanking to compensate for weaker play by the other roles. Overall though, tank distribution is very accurate in terms of how many tanks are required to do a given task and what tasks are best suited to what class.
DPS: Have no say. Generally speaking, I'll often do thing in a less ideal way as long as it puts people I can trust in the important role. This results in our kill times often being slower than they could be because of having more dpsers stuck doing an important role that doesn't allow them to maximize their dps or dps not being in an optimal setup for their maximum dps in order to make the other 2 roles easier.
Healers: Always want WAY MORE healers than they need. I generally find myself giving them a number of healers that I consider the right amount slightly edging towards too many with them believing I'm giving them the right amount slightly edging towards too few. In general, I have compliment them, a lot on how well they're doing with so few healers when in reality... I believe they could often pull off the same encounters with easily 1 or even 2 less healers. Basically, I rarely stress them if I can help it.
So, I asked myself...
What if a DPS led the Raid?
Tanks would be having to focus far more on Threat than anything else resulting in more tank deaths which are blamed almost entirely on healers. Adds that are unable to be bursted immediately by dps are tanks fault for lack of threat. In general, the whole environment is focused on, "How can we kill stuff the fastest?" It also seems like the environment is much more receptive to DPS meters and that raid invites could even go so far as to be influenced by a player's performance in this area. I think this raid would be more likely to play the blame game than any other with a lot more stress going on the healers due to tanks focusing more threat and a lot more stress going on the tanks due to the option of dps having to wait a bit not being an option.
This is pretty close to many raid environments I've experience where DPSers lead them.
What if a Healer led the Raid?
Now initially, I thought... this would result in a lot of raids where there was way more healers in the raid than was necessary. Tanking assignments would be based on how the Tanks would take the least damage and dpsers would be expected to stay below them on threat and that pulling aggro would be seen as the dpsers fault. AKA, I took it very much as an environment similar to my own just with less logical Tanking assignments and easier healing.
However, when thinking on one of my healing friends that's a raid leader. I'm inclined to think that perhaps I've under-estimated what that Raid Leaders competitiveness would be like.
How does being Competitive influence Raid Leaders?
It makes Tank raid leaders give Tanks optimal, yet difficult tanking jobs. It makes DPS raid leaders give DPSers optimal environments for putting out maximum dps. It makes Healing raid leaders try to do a fight with the least healers possible so as to show that the individual healers were stronger than average healers.
So, what if a Healer led the Raid #2?
Tank assignments would still likely be setup in such a way for them to take the least damage as would DPS positioning as well, but this would be needed to be done in order to allow for smaller heal teams to accomplish what should be being down with more healers. In general, it's like the DPS raid leader environment in that it'd have fewer healers than a Tank raid leader environment, but the difference is it would actually be setup for this to be realistic. Tank deaths would be seen as a failing on the healers themselves, it's possible eventually tank gear could come into question survival wise, but dps death would likely be seen as a need for them to play smarter and have more health.
Thoughts on the 3 environments
I think the Tank RL ends up using the most healers, but has the best tank assignments. DPS doesn't get an optimal environment to dps necessarily and b/c more healers are likely used... this type of RL probably isn't going to ever get the fastest kill times. That being said, I think it's likely that this raid is going to kill any boss that doesn't have an aggressive enrage timer sooner than RLs of the other roles.
The DPS RL ends up really creating a lot of pressure on the Tanks and Healers in order to ultra optimize the DPS. They'll get the fastest kill times so aggressive enrage type encounters are going to come very easy for this raid, but execution style fights will likely be far harder than they should be and as a result, take longer to accomplish.
The Healing RL creates an environment of flawless-ness. Tanking is setup to maximize survival as is dps, so it's far from optimal to maximize. Survival style fights this team will have the least trouble with, but aggressive enrage style fights they'll likely have the most trouble with as their tanks and dps likely haven't been pushed enough to accomplish this.
Wrap Up
Obviously, I'm stereotyping to a certain extent, but I'm curious to see how far the apple falls from the tree here as I think I've made some fair assumptions about human nature. Let me know what your Raid Leaders are like based on the role they play in a raid. If you yourself are a raid leader, do you see yourself in these individuals I've described? I'm especially interested if you've changed roles throughout your Raid Leading career and seen yourself adjust your strategies as a whole as a result.
Tanks: Are given very logical jobs that are often a more challenging way of doing things allowing strong tanking to compensate for weaker play by the other roles. Overall though, tank distribution is very accurate in terms of how many tanks are required to do a given task and what tasks are best suited to what class.
DPS: Have no say. Generally speaking, I'll often do thing in a less ideal way as long as it puts people I can trust in the important role. This results in our kill times often being slower than they could be because of having more dpsers stuck doing an important role that doesn't allow them to maximize their dps or dps not being in an optimal setup for their maximum dps in order to make the other 2 roles easier.
Healers: Always want WAY MORE healers than they need. I generally find myself giving them a number of healers that I consider the right amount slightly edging towards too many with them believing I'm giving them the right amount slightly edging towards too few. In general, I have compliment them, a lot on how well they're doing with so few healers when in reality... I believe they could often pull off the same encounters with easily 1 or even 2 less healers. Basically, I rarely stress them if I can help it.
So, I asked myself...
What if a DPS led the Raid?
Tanks would be having to focus far more on Threat than anything else resulting in more tank deaths which are blamed almost entirely on healers. Adds that are unable to be bursted immediately by dps are tanks fault for lack of threat. In general, the whole environment is focused on, "How can we kill stuff the fastest?" It also seems like the environment is much more receptive to DPS meters and that raid invites could even go so far as to be influenced by a player's performance in this area. I think this raid would be more likely to play the blame game than any other with a lot more stress going on the healers due to tanks focusing more threat and a lot more stress going on the tanks due to the option of dps having to wait a bit not being an option.
This is pretty close to many raid environments I've experience where DPSers lead them.
What if a Healer led the Raid?
Now initially, I thought... this would result in a lot of raids where there was way more healers in the raid than was necessary. Tanking assignments would be based on how the Tanks would take the least damage and dpsers would be expected to stay below them on threat and that pulling aggro would be seen as the dpsers fault. AKA, I took it very much as an environment similar to my own just with less logical Tanking assignments and easier healing.
However, when thinking on one of my healing friends that's a raid leader. I'm inclined to think that perhaps I've under-estimated what that Raid Leaders competitiveness would be like.
How does being Competitive influence Raid Leaders?
It makes Tank raid leaders give Tanks optimal, yet difficult tanking jobs. It makes DPS raid leaders give DPSers optimal environments for putting out maximum dps. It makes Healing raid leaders try to do a fight with the least healers possible so as to show that the individual healers were stronger than average healers.
So, what if a Healer led the Raid #2?
Tank assignments would still likely be setup in such a way for them to take the least damage as would DPS positioning as well, but this would be needed to be done in order to allow for smaller heal teams to accomplish what should be being down with more healers. In general, it's like the DPS raid leader environment in that it'd have fewer healers than a Tank raid leader environment, but the difference is it would actually be setup for this to be realistic. Tank deaths would be seen as a failing on the healers themselves, it's possible eventually tank gear could come into question survival wise, but dps death would likely be seen as a need for them to play smarter and have more health.
Thoughts on the 3 environments
I think the Tank RL ends up using the most healers, but has the best tank assignments. DPS doesn't get an optimal environment to dps necessarily and b/c more healers are likely used... this type of RL probably isn't going to ever get the fastest kill times. That being said, I think it's likely that this raid is going to kill any boss that doesn't have an aggressive enrage timer sooner than RLs of the other roles.
The DPS RL ends up really creating a lot of pressure on the Tanks and Healers in order to ultra optimize the DPS. They'll get the fastest kill times so aggressive enrage type encounters are going to come very easy for this raid, but execution style fights will likely be far harder than they should be and as a result, take longer to accomplish.
The Healing RL creates an environment of flawless-ness. Tanking is setup to maximize survival as is dps, so it's far from optimal to maximize. Survival style fights this team will have the least trouble with, but aggressive enrage style fights they'll likely have the most trouble with as their tanks and dps likely haven't been pushed enough to accomplish this.
Wrap Up
Obviously, I'm stereotyping to a certain extent, but I'm curious to see how far the apple falls from the tree here as I think I've made some fair assumptions about human nature. Let me know what your Raid Leaders are like based on the role they play in a raid. If you yourself are a raid leader, do you see yourself in these individuals I've described? I'm especially interested if you've changed roles throughout your Raid Leading career and seen yourself adjust your strategies as a whole as a result.
Total Comments 15
Comments
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Wow, most of my work revolves around reading (okay...skimming) research papers. This is quite the thesis.
I thought the same way, and when I lead things, I did 'skew' things in my favour. I also had a mage guildleader (part-time raidleader) that would do likewise towards dps. It's only common we aim to benefit ourselves (what with basic human nature and all) and there's nohing wrong with it. I think the ideal strategy would have all three groups represented at the table when encountering new fights...but here lies ther rub - the votes will always be 2:1.
Here's what I thought was interesting:
tanks hedge on more healers,
healers go for more healers
dps go on more dps
I can't see a healer that wants more tanks...as encounters are tank limiting. In which case you're probably looking at maybe a ranged dps, and a melee dps to even the odds. If none are the raidleader, that brings the maximum to |5|. Which in a decisive situation...the more voices the worse off you are.
It's fun to muse and think about, but honestly more of a psychological issue then a gamebreaking one (in most cases anyways.) Because after a few wipes, the point becomes moot:
If it's a tank/healer RL and the issue is not making the enrage timer - They'll slide to more dps.
If it's a dps and the tank's health is losing the hpminus/hpplus war, or the healers are constantly out of mana - They'll look at improving healing.
...Until they find that raid 'sweet spot' and get the job done.
It is nifty to think about though.Posted 02-10-2009 at 12:26 PM by Conreeaght 
- While that was a very interesting read, I find the conclusions and general subject matter pretty pointless. The content right now is so unbelievably easy that any pug can pick up and down everything.
I'm of the tank RL variety and I've got some friends who are both dps and heal RLs. This active organization of raids just simply doesn't happen anymore and is unnecessary. I hear rumors that Ulduar is going to be ridic hard again in which case this will become a more interesting thread, but right now...redundant
Posted 02-10-2009 at 04:55 PM by Funyryawnzar -
Well I don't think you can say that the content should create a need for less lax standards, even if it may. A more prepared, tightly wound group right now will do better initially and in the long run than one without much organization and stringent make-up.
In my own experience, whenever I lead a raid, I blame the DPS on mostly everything. Though, when the tanks screw up, it is our fault. Though, if the dps are not pushing hard enough, or are screwing up their jobs, they need to pick it up.
Of course you do have to suit situations for some people's abilities and if you have some people who can't click cubes, then they just can't click cubes.
My guild leader often leads most of our raids and he likes to run with as few healers as possible to maximize the DPS in our raids. Though, when you're pushing for some of these achievements, that is what you need. If we are a healer heavy, he will often replace them.
Also, being stern is a good trait in a raid leader, if you don't have the constitution(READ: BALLS) to remove someone that is consistently not grasping a concept that is integral to a fight, you simply can not rely on them to do so on their own time. Booting someone from a raid works, if people want to kill shit that is.
Posted 02-10-2009 at 05:03 PM by Wars - You're totally right, I'm just saying its really hard to tell if you've got a tightly wound group simply because there is no content to really put it to the test (besides 3 drake sarth, which admittedly, haven't done yet).
The only real difference between a totally rockin raid and a 'meh' raid is finishing nax25 is 2 hours or 3+. There's nothing to rank your crew among other crews. Even the achievements are pretty meaningless imo, because a lot of people could just care less about them (my gm for example) but that doesn't mean we dont cream nax every week.Posted 02-10-2009 at 05:14 PM by Funyryawnzar - We have 2 leaders in our raids. One DPS and one Healer. All strats are talked out between them much ahead of time.
We have a habit of taking 1 too many healer to each raid. When a wipe happens, it is usually blamed on the DPS (initially). But I can honestly say that after the evening is over, the WWS is evaluated and any misconceptions that we had during the raid are washed away.Posted 02-10-2009 at 05:20 PM by Gehn - The only time we've wiped on nax25 in the last few weeks is when I decide to try and pull 3-4 packs at the same time instead of 2-3. Don't really talk strats anymore because everything is so easy and boring. Just stomp through it all, DE more than half the stuff that drops, and go spend badges on PVP stuff.
Posted 02-10-2009 at 05:29 PM by Funyryawnzar -
Here's how this works out in practice for our guild:
I raid lead. I delegate all healing coordination to a single healer, and between every boss they're expected to have the healers organized fully. I don't want on them to pull, but I give them full authority for strategy and won't trump them (though occasionally I'll discuss healing strategy between raids).
I also demand our DPS opens up the instant a mob is attackable, with very limited exception (i.e. Patchwerk has to land a hateful on the HS tank(s) before melee engage). I do this, because as a tank, I know I can hold off them.
Can't write too much more but I'd be happy to get into this subject a bit more. I generally agree w/ your points.Posted 02-10-2009 at 05:44 PM by Ciderhelm -
It's a pity that WoW has no CC class and has rules in place to prevent CC from being useful.
I lead my raids from a mixture of a CC point of view: Control everything, more attention focused on unknown details, known details are mechanically executed, forgotten, downplayed or ignored because that's "someone else's responsibility." and also a mixture of the above tank strategy. (although we have 5 healers in any scenario it seems like because that's how many we can get online at a given moment.)Posted 02-10-2009 at 06:17 PM by Alent - Hrm ... my experience with other tankRL's is similar: they do lean toward heavy heals. However, I personally am not like this at all. My biggest deal when RL'ing is my dps's performance. I always wish they would do more >_<. I support making invite decisions on who can perform. More dps = faster kills = less time for coordination to go wrong = less time for healer mana to deplete.
Your evaluation of dpsRL's is close too ... though you underestimate their "gtfo fire" fight apptitude. Most of a raid is dps, so in my experience, dpsRL's have the best ideas to improve the raid coordination.
HealingRL's, I only know one (my current GM). I FEEL, however, that you are right.Posted 02-10-2009 at 06:38 PM by Tenraiel - Your post really had me thinking for a little bit. (apparently quite rare).
From what I've seen good raidleads are raidleads fist, and their role later. The ones I work with know when to make dps push, when to take, or not to take that extra healer and about tank assignments. Eg - they don't seem to fit in your boxes.
Interestingly, there's 3 to 4 people rotating the raidlead spot in my community. We got one of each role, actually. And there's some in particular that are doing an amazing job glueing the community together. Personal style and communication has a lot of effect, and I take this might not be the way for every raiding community/guild.
My point then? Simple, a raidlead will need to be more than just his/her role to be an effective raidlead.
Thank you for a very good read again Vene.Posted 02-11-2009 at 12:37 AM by Aethelas - "I'm inclined to think that perhaps I've under-estimated what that Raid Leaders competitiveness would be like." Obviously every player is different, but as a dps raid lead I really don't try and be competitive. I know that as a RL I have more to do and concentrate on than the other dps. For me to try and win the dps meter race is putting my own ego above 24 other peoples enjoyment, and I will usually try and give the other dps classes a bigger opportunity to do damage (either from particular roles in a fight, or from selective buffs such as innervate). Also, as a dps raid lead, I am generally tougher on the dps that make mistakes or screw up than I am on the tanks and healers - maybe because I know what they should be able to do, and if I can do it while leading, they better be able to do it if that's all they have to worry about!
Posted 02-12-2009 at 01:05 AM by Jecaa -
In BC I spent some time as a tank, most of it as an arms warrior, filling in for OT as needed. I am currently running around on a DK frost tank.
I sometimes raid lead, but it's been a while. I post the strategy guides on our forums, and in general trouble shoot during raids.
As far as my raid style, I like to take minimal tanks and minimal healers for the encounters. That being said, my 2 criteria for the tanks is high mitigation and high threat. We are fortunate that we have both and we can run Naxx with 5-6 healers and 3 tanks or less. One or 2 encounters require 5.5-6.5 healers. I want the dps to crank it out. It's kind of a new world in WotLK when raids are melee heavy, and yes much of the content is pushover. I was very concerned when we came up against Kel'thuzad, that it would be futile effort to try killing him with 11 melee and tanks in the mix, but we ended up with a kill I think with the 2 big bug tanks out on the sidelines and 1 meleer switching to healing.
I'm big fan of melee dps. I feel their awareness is key in the success of the encounter, at least according to our dps meters they are always on top, there are very few ranged who make in the top 5. So dps wise I am partial to melee, I want to give them all the support and buffs I can throw at them, and I used to say well...we drop this totem for tank threat, but really I wanted it to buff the melee (BC times). It was interesting in BC because we had to try to get a class of each flavor, everyone brought something beneficial to raids. So I feel raid balance is another key to success. Bring as many big guns as you can.
You know one thing I feel benefits a player in learning their class is PvP. I think it helps players learn those abilities they may not use much and decreases their reaction time, also learning other class abilities. Overall I think PvP can help people improve their raiding if they can get over the frustration of dying so much. The PvP environment is unpredictable and you have to know your UI really well to be successful.
I like my raids to be well disciplined (but fun) and run quickly. I dislike waiting for mana, waiting to rez, long loot off-loads. I want to go, go, go.
I'd say from a tank/previous meleer point of view, my priorities are tank (high mitigation/threat), heavy dps, light on healers but strong healing. Ah, one of the other things we talk about with raid setup is replenishment, this is how we get away with a lesser # of healers. In BC it used to be buff the dps, now it's buff the healers mana pool.
Dang, I guess I'm dps at heart.
KezaPosted 02-12-2009 at 07:30 AM by Keza
Updated 02-12-2009 at 07:41 AM by Keza - Interesting read, Vene. One question, do you think players have a "home" role, or do players that perform decent-to-well in multiple roles break from this rough classification?
Posted 02-12-2009 at 09:53 PM by Finelle -
I think multiple roles certainly helps, but ultimately, we all have a "home" role as you call it.Posted 02-23-2009 at 11:26 AM by veneretio - Thank you for taking me out of my "box" of raidthink.
I've never attended a raid run by anything other than a tank (prot warrior) or a shadow priest. I am a struggling healadin in a medium serious raiding guild.
In my experience, it has been presumed that a healer cannot lead a raid. They will be too distracted and consumed by their own role to lead effectively, and frankly, as a healer I agree. If they are focused on their role, they should not be leading. If they are healing so little as to be able to lead, they are less effective than they could be in raid. I suppose that a holy paladin planted in one spot and having to merely spam HL and an occasional HS or cleanse with maximum camera settings could do it, but I am not talking about specific healers or situations. The discussion is "what if" scenarios in general.
I guess that the thing that struck me was the assumption that a healer-led raid would be healer heavy. No, thank you. As a healer, I am much more interested and concerned with which tank, how many and who is MTing EACH FIGHT. AND I agree that we could usually succeed with one less healer than the prescribed/suggested number.
The critical part is which healing classes are brought and the performance quality of each healer. (Presuming raid-appropriately geared healers, three healadins in 10-man Naxx or Ulduar would be awful. So would three holy priests or three resto/holy anythings. This can be extrapolated to any 25-man. Again, I am not talking about overgeared players who can muscle through any fight.)
The perfect combination of six healers would be my ideal healing scenario. The combination might vary for each fight (hurray for dual specs), but in my experience, even in progression 25's, six would be enough, and five in some situations.
Next, I hate having many tanks...it is a nightmare. Every healer worth their mana is watching every tank. Watching two tanks, ok, three, dicey, four?? blech. You are thinking, "Ok main heal X and beacon Y, instant heal Z now and then and do alot of praying. Pray X and Y are up to the job and appropriately assigned." (And that the healers are, too, ha!)
Truthfully, it is often a relief when one tank goes down- YES, I said that. In a three or four tank fight with six or seven healers when a tank dies, it allows for better healing of each remaining tank. And I have noticed that rather than causing a wipe, that situation is almost always a win.
If we change the proposition from healer-led to healer-designed raid, I think you'd find the result rather spartan, rather than flowery and healer-heavy.
As healers, we know dpsers are very self-sufficient. They hope you'll rescue them in dire situations, but by and large, they soloed themselves to 80 and are a problem-free bunch. Give us as many of them as you can without gimping the raid. Faster kills= win. Faster kills= I can use bigger heals where needed without worrying "Omg, I have 5k mana left and seven more minutes of fighting."
Give us three tanks max and only two wherever you can manage it. Put cannon-like single-target healers on the tanks and back them up with a powerful tank-float healer with HOTs or chain heals. Period. "Renews" aren't going to cut it and shouldn't have to. I am not a raid healer, so I will refrain from commenting on that aspect.
Give us a MT who is fight appropriate!!!! Don't put an effective health MT in an avoidance fight or vice-versa. Make sure that the "hateful blow/strike" tank is up to being that. Nothing lovlier than having the dps warrior or ret pally "accidentally" taking the hits *sigh*.
Which brings us to the part that ego plays. In designing a raid, that has to be taken out of consideration. Although tank X may WANT to tank and lead every fight, that is rarely the optimum. And it causes sighing and scrambling in the healing quarter. We've all been in raids where the tank is not appropriate for the fight. You assign him/her one healer- wipe. Assign two- wipe. If you have to put three healers on the MT in a typical MT/OT fight- it's the wrong MT.
Give us TWO or three good tanks who are willing to be flexible, with a variety of spec and playstyles, a combination of SIX healers with big gun heals, HOTs, chain or group healing, the MAXIMUM number of self-sufficient DPSers and we are happy.Posted 06-08-2009 at 11:16 AM by Jalex
Updated 06-08-2009 at 11:20 AM by Jalex
