Hybrid Unbalancing
For those of you just tuning in this is going to be in response to the following Blog entry, feel free to go read it:
http://www.tankspot.com/forums/blogs...balancing.html
Okay, welcome back. And away we go!
Dear Guy or Girl,
You're wrong. Your game would be inferior to the current game. I know I'm right b/c your game has existed before and failed while this game still exists and is the most popular game in the world.
See, you're missing the point of Blizzard's Equality. You're interrupting it far too literally. You're assuming that being equal means being able to do everything while Blizzard is assuming that being equal means being able to do anything. Let me repeat that.
You think = equals Everything.
They think = equals Anything.
You think = means that every fight if you're a Druid or Paladin you'll be just as good as a Warrior.
They think = means that some fights Druids > Warrior, some fights DKs > Paladins, but that ultimately all tanks can do ANY fight.
WAKE UP.
THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT EQUAL OPPORTUNITY. THEY'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT CLONING.
I mean come on. I'm a Warrior too and perhaps I've got an advantage over you because I've immersed myself in the tanking world for many years now in a way that very few people do... but COME ON.
Honestly, I get that you're trying to sound all logical and shit, but I'm going to let you in on a little secret. You're basically trying to deny Women the right to Vote. That's all this is. You're terrified of having some crazy other person having the same shot as you. The same opportunity as you...
Because I mean... why the hell would anyone be a man when being a women you get to have boobs and get to vote!?
And I get that this is perhaps offending you or sounding childish, but frankly... who's the bigger villian here... me, who's disregarding the feelings of 1 individual or you who's disregarding the feelings of MULTIPLE COMMUNITIES!?
...and you may have not even realized this, but I have an advantage being a Warrior and not being able to heal. You see... no ones going to ask me to respec and heal. I don't want to heal and the game prevents me from healing. Druids do not have this same luxury nor do Paladins. Ask a Druid or Paladin that truly loves tanking how much they love being asked to respec healing b/c their guild has been too lazy to recruit more healers.
You see... there's Paladins and Druids that wish when they created their toon that they could pick their spec and it be tanking and that the game will only allow them to do that. They envy Warrior's ability to not heal. (Just as there are women who envy men for not being able to have children)
And, yes it's bloody selfish, but it's a game. At the end of the day, it's suppose to be fun.
(...and if you can really look past the ridiculous levels I've taken this debate to you might just realize that perhaps it's this way because this is both the way life is and the way we wish life was)
http://www.tankspot.com/forums/blogs...balancing.html
Okay, welcome back. And away we go!
Dear Guy or Girl,
You're wrong. Your game would be inferior to the current game. I know I'm right b/c your game has existed before and failed while this game still exists and is the most popular game in the world.
See, you're missing the point of Blizzard's Equality. You're interrupting it far too literally. You're assuming that being equal means being able to do everything while Blizzard is assuming that being equal means being able to do anything. Let me repeat that.
You think = equals Everything.
They think = equals Anything.
You think = means that every fight if you're a Druid or Paladin you'll be just as good as a Warrior.
They think = means that some fights Druids > Warrior, some fights DKs > Paladins, but that ultimately all tanks can do ANY fight.
WAKE UP.
THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT EQUAL OPPORTUNITY. THEY'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT CLONING.
I mean come on. I'm a Warrior too and perhaps I've got an advantage over you because I've immersed myself in the tanking world for many years now in a way that very few people do... but COME ON.
Honestly, I get that you're trying to sound all logical and shit, but I'm going to let you in on a little secret. You're basically trying to deny Women the right to Vote. That's all this is. You're terrified of having some crazy other person having the same shot as you. The same opportunity as you...
Because I mean... why the hell would anyone be a man when being a women you get to have boobs and get to vote!?
And I get that this is perhaps offending you or sounding childish, but frankly... who's the bigger villian here... me, who's disregarding the feelings of 1 individual or you who's disregarding the feelings of MULTIPLE COMMUNITIES!?
...and you may have not even realized this, but I have an advantage being a Warrior and not being able to heal. You see... no ones going to ask me to respec and heal. I don't want to heal and the game prevents me from healing. Druids do not have this same luxury nor do Paladins. Ask a Druid or Paladin that truly loves tanking how much they love being asked to respec healing b/c their guild has been too lazy to recruit more healers.
You see... there's Paladins and Druids that wish when they created their toon that they could pick their spec and it be tanking and that the game will only allow them to do that. They envy Warrior's ability to not heal. (Just as there are women who envy men for not being able to have children)
And, yes it's bloody selfish, but it's a game. At the end of the day, it's suppose to be fun.
(...and if you can really look past the ridiculous levels I've taken this debate to you might just realize that perhaps it's this way because this is both the way life is and the way we wish life was)
Total Comments 19
Comments
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Up with Universal Suffrage!Posted 02-09-2009 at 12:09 AM by Klimpen 
- It felt like you were ranting, yet it made to much sense to be a rant....
Posted 02-09-2009 at 12:19 AM by Dalarandude - This is clearly directed at me and would, perhaps, have been better placed under the original; but no worry, I can respond here.
As previously hinted by myself on the topic, what Blizzard claim and what they do are two different things. You seem quick to mention my inability to grasp Blizzard's intentions, yet you're looking at an idealized view and not the real one; the very same thing you accuse me of doing.Quote:You think = equals Everything.
They think = equals Anything.
Paladins can tank single targets equivalently to warriors, they have equivalent durability (or negligible difference) but are massively superior in multi-mob tanking and overall DPS.
In short, your analogy is flawed. You think I'm implying the stunting of some people over others and I'm not. Currently comparing a warrior to a paladin in tanking is like asking Long John Silver to beat Carl Lewis in the 100 metres.
Not going to happen.
Therefore, I'm not suggesting that people shouldn't get the same shot as me; I'm suggesting that I get the same shot as them (particularly considering paladins).
Unfortunately, you seem to have missed my point because you wanted to rant. I'm sorry about that, I spent half an hour this morning trying to clarify it.
And as for the "unrealized" advantage of being a warrior that can't heal...
Please, try to be serious. It's all I ask.Posted 02-09-2009 at 12:48 AM by Zellviren -
SaluPosted 02-09-2009 at 12:52 AM by Alent - In your blog, you can edit and delete posts. As you've done with the most accurate reply made in your blog for the sole purpose of not responding to it.Quote:This is clearly directed at me and would, perhaps, have been better placed under the original; but no worry, I can respond here.
Posted 02-09-2009 at 01:18 AM by Alent - Not true - I only deleted the ones that were needlessly hateful and/or pointless.Quote:In your blog, you can edit and delete posts. As you've done with the most accurate reply made in your blog for the sole purpose of not responding to it.
Including my own, if you look.
All points were answered in my last addition to the blog, so don't try that little chestnut. If one of yours is missing, it's because it fell into either (or both) of the erstwhile mentioned categories.Posted 02-09-2009 at 01:50 AM by Zellviren - It's probably worth pointing out that Bliz never gets things right on the first pass. That probably has to with the massive size and complexity of the game, or if you follow the official forums: because they don't throw enough money at the game. Things were a mess when TBC came out, and a mess when classic came out. I know, I played through the vanilla beta. Things in classic got better eventually, and then TBC came out and eventually things got better again. Wrath's been out for not so long. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that eventually Blizzard will get some stuff sorted out and everyone can start blaming everything on rogues again.
Posted 02-09-2009 at 04:18 AM by Petninja 
- Since wotlk i have never seen "lf prot pally". Paladins are better for Trash but not by a margin which stops people from inviting Deff specced Warriors to RaidsQuote:Therefore, I'm not suggesting that people shouldn't get the same shot as me; I'm suggesting that I get the same shot as them (particularly considering paladins).
Posted 02-09-2009 at 06:35 AM by Oneiroi - Well, this is friendly.
Posted 02-09-2009 at 07:15 AM by Mhoram -
"As previously hinted by myself on the topic, what Blizzard claim and what they do are two different things."
You're wrong. If anything, Warriors are better add tanks on fights like Sartharion 3D than Paladins. 5-mans do not equal all encounters. Last time I checked Paladins weren't interrupting spells, reflecting spells or charging either.Posted 02-09-2009 at 07:41 AM by veneretio - Yeah, honestly guys. You can't tell me you have never wanted to have boobs before.
Oh, I mean I agree with Veneretio about equal opportunity. I want equal opportunity roles, too. I vote Vene '09.Posted 02-09-2009 at 08:01 AM by Arideni -
I have boobs and I can vote.
Caulle 1, the rest of you suckers 0.Posted 02-09-2009 at 08:06 AM by Caulle - I think blizz has said that from a pure dps point of view Pure classes need to be better than hybrids, I believe 5% or so was the number tossed around. Hunters/Mages/Warlocks/rogues are considered "pure" classes.
Making all other tanks 5% worse than warriors simply means warriors tank everything - that's not the plan.
Personally I think dual-spec will pretty much fix the current problem where warriors and pallies tank because they must, wherease Druids & DK can dps effectively.Posted 02-09-2009 at 08:28 AM by loquatious - I'm really looking forward to Dual Spec. That allows me to let the feral druid tank, because we won't automagically lose 800 RDPS from lolprot dps.
Posted 02-09-2009 at 09:07 AM by Finelle - Why is no one challenging statements like these? Warriors, played properly, are the equals or superiors of any tanks in the game.Quote:In short, your analogy is flawed. You think I'm implying the stunting of some people over others and I'm not. Currently comparing a warrior to a paladin in tanking is like asking Long John Silver to beat Carl Lewis in the 100 metres.
I think the problem for many warriors is that they want to play like paladins. The warrior who does a Heroic Throw and waits for the mobs to come to him -is- inferior to a paladin tank. Warriors who want to play like that need to realize the differences in the classes: paladins are passive tanks, while warriors are dynamic tanks. Paladins have terrific tools to bring mobs to them and keep them in place; warriors go to the mob and show it its place.
Typically in 25-man Naxx a pally and I share tanking duties, and we have a very friendly rivalry over threat and over dps. After a couple of months it has become clear that we do almost exactly the same damage, and we generate almost exactly the same threat. My warrior generally takes less damage. It is also clear that if he changes his gear, he can heal about 60% as well as a specced healer. If I change my gear, I can do about 60% of the damage of a specced dps toon when not being hit. Ok, I cannot heal at all, whereas with another gear change the pally can do about 40% of the damage of that dps guy when not being hit, but I don't begrudge him that - it is meaningless.
This forum is full of threads talking about warriors doing 3k or even 4k damage on certain fights. This forum is full of warriors that tank every fight in the game. The people who say that warriors are inferior are actually rather worse off than Long-John Silver as described in the quote: they don't have a leg to stand on.Posted 02-09-2009 at 11:47 AM by Myranmys - I just want to say couple of things, not attacking anybody's opinion - what is happening in real, not in theory and I do think that many druids would say something similar.
A little 'case study' from a druid's point of view...
I always envied warriors for their agro abilities before WoTLK - and since druids were allowed some more agro butons to press, I am really happy with that, which means - I can tank aswell and I don't need 3 crowd controll classes in my party! and there will not be such gasps when i join to tank: ah, druid... a female druid... and once you simply can't get 5th mob to stick on you someone pops: I wish druids had this ability that warrior/pally does...
And remembering old days before tbc - our shammy hybrids were way too low comparing with pallys cose they couldn't tank! And this didn't change even if paladins walk free in Orgrimar (which I hate and will never forgive
) so 'they' (bliz) still got their sence for differences... a bit.
The reason I didn't roll a warrior (though i'm thinking of trying, to know what the real thing is about, cose warriors to me are THE tanking class) is that i simply love all the other little bits that druids offer you when you are not in instances/raids - little perks like fast swimming, and jumping and now flying swiftly with only a click away and the whole character idea of a druid.
I don't go heal raids, cose I simply can't heal - I am not good at it, even if I practice - i like to see where the mobs go and who is hiting what rather than watching health bars drop... and nobody would ask me - once a healing item drops and nobody want's it, jokes fly aroudn: that's for milly's healing gear... ! I don't even have full set of feral dps gear, cose i simply like tanking and I don't do other things... and I have met other druids tanks who decline joining group if they will have to go cat form - they like druid class for the concept of it, not beeing able to do everything as good!
And the thing that was said (no idea who and never mind that, but it just got stuck in mind) that hybrids are as good in Dps/healing/tanking - it is not decided from the start, that you will be great at everything and you will be better dps than a mage or rogue. It is decided on your playing skill and what gear are you able to get? how do you build your talents? - that's what makes even mages differ! And if you all got same best gear for the differences or the equality of a hybrid to finaly show - you have done the game now anyway, so... why would it bother you if you do the same damage as a hybrid?
So, little sentence to summarise. As I said - theory is a theory and in reality there are plenty of other reason why someone chooses a class, why someoen is doing better damage or healing... even if person is playing a hybrid, it doesn't mean, that he can do great in all the talent trees and gear only and copying builds does not make you a good player.
There. Calm now.
millyPosted 02-09-2009 at 11:54 AM by Millet -
Multimob 'overall' DPS is higher yes, but single target tanking warrior DPS is "massively superior".Quote:Paladins can tank single targets equivalently to warriors, they have equivalent durability (or negligible difference) but are massively superior in multi-mob tanking and overall DPS.
Before you tell someone to try be serious about something like that, try playing a tanking class that can off heal.Quote:And as for the "unrealized" advantage of being a warrior that can't heal...
Please, try to be serious. It's all I ask.
In bosses such as Saph/KT if the warrior is MTing I'm the one who chucks on healing gear and plays the "Watch the bars go down!" game.
The class chosen to tank mobs/bosses is decided upon the classes weaknesses and strengths. Why would Blizz just want everyone to thinking "Warrior tank everything", ruining the fun for other classes.Posted 02-09-2009 at 01:43 PM by Niian - Blizzard has stated that each tank has their own "niche" so to speak, but will be able to tank any encounter in the game. By that statement, it is safe to assume that all tanks will be given equal opportunity (none of that need X tank to tank X encounter to move on crap) but that X tank will be able to tank X encounter better than Y tank, who can tank Y encounter better than X tank, which in turn leads to having tank rotations. Now I realize executing this is a whole other ball game, but at the very least, have some optimism that this goal will be reached in the near future.
Posted 02-09-2009 at 02:56 PM by Rampart
Updated 02-09-2009 at 03:30 PM by Rampart - Guys can have boobs too. But for some reason, they just are not as good.Quote:Because I mean... why the hell would anyone be a man when being a women you get to have boobs and get to vote!?
Posted 02-10-2009 at 05:54 AM by Zyffyr
