Raiding: A love-hate relationship
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Raiding: A love-hate relationship

Posted 03-10-2008 at 04:04 PM by Satrina
Seems to be the in vogue topic these days, so here we go. As with Caulle, I ended up thinking this would make a better blog post. I love raiding...and I hate it.

I love raiding because I hate TV. I'll watch the hockey game and House (or record them and watch later) and that's all that's worth my time that is being broadcast right now. WoW gives me something marginally more productive to do in the time I would spend communing with the tube. At least here I am interacting with people. Being currently without a SO means I can play and write addons all I like and as long as work doesn't fire me it's all good!

But more than that, I like beating the game. Going in and executing your part of the the strategy perfectly while corraling 24 other people into doing the same thing and seeing the bad guy fall at your feet is just plain fun. I mean, who doesn't like winning?

But at the same time, I hate raiding. As others have noted, the content lends itself to throwing yourself at it over and over again until you win - whether it was a fluke or not. There's no price of failure besides a few gold in repairs and consumables. There's nothing stopping you from repeatedly trying except the oh so arbitrary "pacing mechanic" of trash that, at best, makes you stop for the night because it'll be too late by the time you re-clear the trash.

Mount Hyjal is the exemplar of both success and failure here.
- Talk to Jaina and 8 waves of trash obediently throw themselves at you, followed by Rage Winterchill, all at your command. (failure)
- Normally I'd roll my eyes at the always consistent makeup in number and type of critters in the trash waves, but the Caverns of Time mechanic making it a "historical recreation" makes it work (success)
- You can beat Rage Winterchill with more than half your raid dead to Death and Decay if you're on your toes, unlike many encounters where more than a couple dead means you have no chance unless you vastly outgear the encounter (success)
- If you do die to Rage Winterchill, well, you do deserve the ridicule you may earn. But more than that, even though he goes and kills Jaina - you get to try again, as often as you want (Definite failure)
- When you are trying again, the trash miraculously is available again. At least normal instance trash has the good grace to stay dead for two hours (failure)
- If you win, Anatheron is similarly at your beck and call, then Kaz'Rogal and Azgalor - all at your leisure, whenever you're ready guv'nor.

Mount Hyjal could have been the greatest raid instance to date. So much potential in encounter mechanics, strategy, and even lore! Replace the triggers with 3 minute timers, and make the later the boss encounters somewhat more forgiving - because if you fail, you are done for the week. End of story. This sort of thing has been tried in WoW before and has inevitably had the restriction removed for a simple reason: what else are we supposed to do?

That brings me to what I consider the biggest failure of WoW - in terms of everything including raids, heroics, pvp, and even the random mob walking around Hellfire - and the thing I hate the most: It is static. Nothing ever changes. The fact that sites like Bosskillers can exist should be a huge warning signal that something is wrong!

I blame this on the fact that the combat system is not internally consistent. "Elite" mobs indicate a problem, and the problem is that your system cannot stand on its own without being mucked about in. People killed Illidan 9+ months ago and are starving for something to do. (But hey, here's some badge loot you can get after running heroics that you vastly outgear a few hundred times - have fun!) Sunwell is coming, but for some it's too little, too late. Why does it take 9 months to get new content out? Because it needs to be tuned. I hit Teron for 280, Teron hits me for 6800. I have 21000 health, the boss has 4 million. Makes sense, yes? No. No internal consistency, so you need to make these uber-badguys that you wouldn't last 5 seconds against alone. This is the wrong model!

How about this: Rage Winterchill, level 100 Lich (hero class!) He's got maybe 20,000 health because he's a cloth caster but is 30 levels higher than we are. Sounds grim for poor old Rage, until his 30-40 friends (who are level 70) come over the hill before he does. You don't win till everyone dies, and you can bet his minions will be working to keep you from getting to him while he wreaks havoc from behind the line (player-NPC collision? no way!).

But the basic thing here is this: Rage is generated using the template for his class. Give him some loot (that he, gasp, uses against you!) and generate a random number and type of undead to go with him. Took maybe a second to set up the encounter, and for encounters that are not "historic recreation", every instance of that encounter would be different - bye bye Bosskillers.

I know, I know - Impossible to balance such a system! Not really, no. Pen and paper RPGs have been doing it and refining the art for years. It's not easy, but it is definitely doable.

(And while we're on it, what is up with gigantic mobs? Realism is a stretch in any fantasy game, sure, but damned if Supremus shouldn't just step on me and laugh as he adds whatever bits of my loot that weren't crushed to uselessness to his hoard. Come on!)

So yeah, there are a lot of things I hate about WoW's raiding model. The arbitrariness and static-ness of PVP bores me to tears, and I've run the same heroics 138902 times already so no thanks to that. That leaves raiding, which, for all its problems is the thing I enjoy the most in the game. I just hope that a deep examination of the system will be made and some sort of relief may come. I'm not optimistic because the most significant flaws are fundamental. At least writing addons is fun =)

Total Comments 7

Comments

Old
The trend that started with uo, moved to EQ is simply continuing here, lack of ingenuity and the attempt to appease everyone will ruin WoW just like it did the latter games, it is inevitable.

It's just like video game design in general, companies are to afraid to take risks, they would rather take the same idea and paint a different picture around it.
Posted 03-10-2008 at 04:18 PM by Centx Centx is offline
Old
Ciderhelm's Avatar
This fits into something else I was going to argue for aside from timed instances -- randomization in encounters.
Definitely a very good post, and I agree.


The only thing I'd add, though, is that having static elements that can be tuned into encounters is important. I'd hate to never see a Vaelastrasz Burning Adrenaline again, or a Four Horsemen rotation that occurred while simultaneously fending off the random elements of an encounter.


I know there are some people who say a model of repeated, endless wipes is ok because players need to be allowed to make mistakes. I wouldn't necessarily argue for having just a one-wipe-you're out mechanic in all situations (original Vael was one-hour, but you could get 4+ attempts in). But to say players need room to make mistakes is strange to me, because I -- in my entire raiding history -- have only made one genuine mistake on something I knew; it came at 1:00 AM, three hours after I should have been asleep.

Raiding has all the mechanisms to create wins but has none to create loss. It's not Risk vs. Reward, it's Time vs. Reward.
Posted 03-10-2008 at 04:53 PM by Ciderhelm Ciderhelm is online now
Old
Satrina's Avatar
Scripted encounters definitely have their place, even though I didn't say it above, I just think they should be the exception. I definitely agree that unique badguys should get unique abilities, just not omginstagib things. Things that are again internally consistent with the system. Burning Adrenaline was excellent, the only thing I didn't like was the almost inescapable death.
Posted 03-10-2008 at 05:08 PM by Satrina Satrina is offline
Old
Caulle's Avatar
I'd watch more hockey if the Leafs didn't totally suck up a storm this year.
Posted 03-11-2008 at 05:51 AM by Caulle Caulle is offline
Old
I both agree and disagree with this one. I definitely understand where you're coming from. You've been playing this game for years, and have done the content available until each encounter is routine. You're starving for something that feels different, or runs differently. Dynamism.

To be honest, what we're talking about here is the dream game. There will come a time when we have the storage and processing power to couple with the thinking algorithms necessary to be as responsive to player actions as a tabletop GM or Administrator run module from many Bioware games would be. Unfortunately, despite everything, computers can't think, they can only choose, and their choices are very limited.

I think it's very reasonable to want more random elements inside the encounters in the game. Have the phases more versatile with different things a boss might start doing based on raid makeup, that sort of thing. However even that would become routine with the amount of time invested. Over what span does it take to get burned out on the same 10 variations? What about 25 variations? 100?

It would be wonderful to see a wider variety to encounters, but the only truly responsive opponent available today is a human opponent, and one around the same level of skill and power as you.
(I really liked PlanetSide for this... <3 R.I.P. <3 )

As for improved content, I'm there with you, waiting for the day when they release adaptive AI's in all the computer controlled opponents, as well as intelligent response to perceived threats and ways to deal with it. I also agree with Cider, that it's more about Cost(Time) vs Reward as opposed to risk. The only element of risk in this game is our own reputation amongst those we play with.

Here's to the future of gaming, may it come sooner!
Posted 03-12-2008 at 01:09 AM by Trū Trū is offline
Old
Great post! I've always regretted the static aspect of Wow. While I know where you're coming from, the mechanics you've described would still become boring and repetitive, because every week.. you'll repeat it. As a person with far more pen and paper DM/GM experience than tanking, Pen and Paper was a constant struggle to balance. It wasn't some easy system, the challenge rating system (D&D specifically) wasn't something they just plugged numbers into without testing. And it certainly wasn't best used on the player classes, though technically you could. When you did you would end up with very skewed, unbalanced fight. The books are choke full of monsters with odd special rules that would make them the wow equivalent of elite.

The reason you might remember P&P not needing that kind of tuning, is that you only did the fight once, if you lost, the character might die, but the story goes on, the GM adjusts, new characters are rolled. When you die on Rage, you get raised, and you have to do it again. You can't decide to join the Scourge or go become a cheesemaker instead. You repair your armor, get buffed and try it again, because that's all you can do. They have to spend a long time balancing it.

As for the changes making balancing and play testing mobs unnecessary, nothing about a 100 level caster mob would change that. A warrior tank would miss so much they couldn't ever generate reliable agro. I know that sounds like nitpicking, but its the details that make a boss doable. They'd still have to alter his attacks or remove spells, something counter to a pure level system. Elite and raid level mobs are a necessary evil.

Frankly, truly inspired design would in fact, make tanks useless. Nothing about tanking has anything to do with how a truly innovative raid encounter would work. Tanking itself, is a form of scripting the event, since you remove the biggest element of strategy by dictating who takes the most damage. Wouldn't all generals love to be able to order the enemy to attack only a certain position? What kind of AI would allow itself to keep beating on a enemy that is doing no damage and not going down? What kind of caster with about 5 melee, all 30 levels lower, wailing on them would not start spamming arcane explosions?

I agree that raiding is prone to becoming repetitive. I just think that you can't have it both ways, the standard raid group against a enemy that shows the flexiblility and balancing of pvp.
Posted 03-12-2008 at 09:44 AM by SuperFlounder SuperFlounder is offline
Updated 03-12-2008 at 10:16 AM by SuperFlounder
Old
Satrina's Avatar
We still play P&P and you're right that you can't have a system that automatically tunes perfectly 100% of the time. Part of being skilled would become "oh shit run!", and sometimes it'd be easier than you thought. That's just fine by me. Randomie.

One of the biggest problems I have with almost all MMOs is the assumption that you will die repeatedly. I have no problem with a mechanic that allows you to come back to life - it'd be a pretty dismal game otherwise. Encounters with the expectation that you will die, especially ones with explicit death mechanics (Azgalor, Teron) are just flat out stupid. I loved and hated Vaelastrasz for Burning Adrenaline.

Yes - being unable to hit the mob is a problem, but one that is imposed by an arbitrary mechanic that again I believe is totally unnecessary. Eliminate that and you're well on the way to something balanceable. I have long said that a) using line of sight for aggro instead of an arbitrary radius because you happen to be higher level, b) giving mobs the intelligence to say "Hmm Bob's being beaten on up there, we should go help", and c) A simple alarm bell would remove the need for elite mobs almost all the time. Creatures that dutifully chase you when you shoot them and run around the corner? Come on now! Hit the bell, grab some friends, and then go look.

More than that, I have said in more than a few places elsewhere (and alluded to it in my original post) that the idea of threat is a retarded game mechanic. Unit collision would make a far better system. Tanks become the ones physically imposing themselves to block the bad guys, and the bad guys also move to try and counter that. Play DDO for a while and watch a pack of kobolds jockeying to try and get flank on you and tell me it can't be done today (though even DDO suffers from the threat mechanic to an extent).

I don't buy the "you can't have it both ways" argument at all. The biggest limiting factor is the current state of AI. Besides that it's all software - literally anything is possible.
Posted 03-13-2008 at 08:21 AM by Satrina Satrina is offline
 
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