Am I Expecting Too Much?
Posted 01-26-2008 at 08:45 AM by Radhja
I have called off the Karazhan raids in my guild.
Oh, and you KNOW the entire guild threw a giant tantrum over it. My chatbox was a solid wall of Officer Chat text about how irresponsible I was to just “dump the guild and their needs for my own selfish agenda”, and how the restrictions I was putting on the raidgroups were too strict, etc, etc.
Anyone who’s read my blogs over the past few weeks know exactly how the KZ raids have been going. Some nights are great, some nights are horrible. We have no dedicated party balance in the guild, so to stand a chance in KZ, we always have to pug in DPS and/or heals. On the nights that we don’t have to pug, we struggle to find party cohesion and cooperation, much less actually progress anywhere in KZ. Guild runs are feeling more and more like traditional pugs [read: uncoordinated, inexperience, etc.] with each passing day.
So, I finally let my guild know exactly how I felt about the situation by imposing a set of strict “Raid Requirements” guidelines (as posted in my last blog) to help each of the guildies know if they needed to do a little more work outside of Karazhan or if they were prepared for it.
Well, I posted the list, and that’s when everyone went off. “You mean I can’t come unless I have [relevant stat for class]?!?! That’ll take forever!!!” “Oh, Radhja’s trying to control the guild now and keep everyone out of the raids so he can do the bigger raids with other guilds!!”
/sigh
OK, truth be told, I DO run 25-mans with other guilds. I’ve developed a bit of celebrity-hood (or notoriety, depending on who you talk to), and I’m asked to tank a lot of various instances of all levels. I try to help out guildies and personal friends first… most of the time. If I ever get the chance to run Gruul’s, Magtheridon, etc., I jump on the chance without a second thought.
Anyway, I suggested to the guild that instead of running Karazhan and repeating our failures, we should focus on doing the 70-instances and Heroics to increase badge counts and get gear’d before re-entering KZ.
Oh, all hell broke loose at that point.
Finally, the GM chimed in with his commentary, chiding me for misleading the guild intentionally and breaking my promise to those who depended on me to run them thru KZ.
Finally, I lost it. Guys, it takes an immense amount of pressure to make me truly crack, but I couldn’t take it anymore. When the people that I’ve sworn to protect and lead to greener pastures turn on me for trying to make their progression smoother, all bets are off.
So, I got on vent, and I vented.
After two hours of fighting with the GM and the accusing guildies, they finally shut up and started to listen. I gave them my side of the story, explaining precisely why I was imposing these rules. Finally I gave them the ultimatum:
“If I’m going to be MT and Raid Leader, these guidelines will be followed to the specifications we’ve discussed. If they are not, you will once again lose me as MT. I will not tolerate mediocrity when I pour my heart and soul into organizing raids for this guild.”
The next morning, I slept in. It was my off-day, so I log on about 9am and start working on my Skettis dailies, helping one of the guildies complete the chain quests to do their own dailies. Then I notice the Paladin OT I’ve taken under my wing come on, and he tells me that he’s unlearned all his talents and was planning on speccing 20/21/20.
“Why are you respecing?”, I asked.
“Cause you’re giving up on the guild”, he replied.
I suggested a 0/46/15 build to him (one of the default tankadin builds from the forums), and he said he’s already spent the points in a 0/47/14 build.
“Did you put any points into Imp. Reckoning?”, I asked.
For some reason, he refused to answer, so I asked again.
“It’s actually kind of a big deal. I need to know if you put any points in Imp. Reckoning”
Still no answer.
“There is a point to my asking, dude…”
And after a brief silence…
“YOU DNO’T [expletive deleted] CONTORL ME!!”, he replies in officer chat, obviously frustrated.
A fuse blew somewhere in my mind.
Finally, I’d had enough of this guy. The idiot-adin may have been a friend of the GM (whom he had talked into coming over from a horde character on another server to join our guild), but I’d never really liked the guy. I had taken him under my wing to help teach him what I could about tanking, and he had just thrown it all back in my face.
So, I got back on vent told the ungrateful little shit that I was glad that I wouldn’t have to deal with his whiney ass anymore, and that I would intentionally exclude him from any future raiding groups, and put him on /ignore.
Heh… at this point, I was just waiting to be /gkicked, but it never happened. No one said a word to me about it, and just casually kept talking to each other like nothing had happened.
Later that day, I escorted a group thru LBRS to get the UBRS key (which is freakin’ bugged, by the way… make sure you have an [item]Unadorned Seal of Ascension[/item] before you attempt to talk to Vaelan and turn in the quests, or he’ll just stand there and ignore you), and the paladin just bitched in /o about how he wanted to go and how it wasn’t fair that he was being excluded from everything.
I was rolling with cruel laughter.
I’m really not like this most of the time, but I’ve had enough. I’m considering leaving the guild now, but I really don’t want to abandon those who have actually done the work I’ve requested of them. I’m not trying to control people or tell them how to play their characters – I’m simply showing them the best way to accomplish what they want to do by suggesting particular talents (and which ones NOT to take), not change how they play their characters in general.
For example… my brother has a lvl 56 Warlock he’s trying to get to 70. Back when he was lvl 49, he asked me to play his toon for a day or two to level while he was at work. Well, I did, and I took a few liberties with his character without his permission, respeccing it slightly to give him access to his new 41-pt talent (he’d put points into both Affliction and Demonology to get Imp. Shadow Bolt and Bane. I just took those points and applied them to Unstable Affliction when he hit 50). Well, of course he was angry that I’d made changes without his consent, but after explaining what I had done and showing him that nothing had REALLY changed, he began to play it with a few extra spells, and he’s doing much better now. His DPS went WAY up, and he can actually drain tank fairly well. (He still fears in instances a lot, but I’ll work the nubness out of yet!). Even he admitted that he liked the changes I made after some time had passed.
I admit I’m a bit of a control freak, but I’m not going to tell people what spec they HAVE to be. However, if someone comes to me, asking to be trained in the ways of tankhood, I’m going to tell them exactly how I would spec, and WHY. Well, the paly OT refused to hear me out about the spec recommendation, so I cut him off completely.
(By the way, for those who don’t know… the reason you don’t spec Imp. Reckoning is because bosses love to return the favor with strings of Parries, which is ultimately bad for the raid because it stresses the healers beyond belief. Try tanking Prince with Imp. Reckoning on P2 and see how long you survive.)
Maybe I AM in the wrong about all this. Maybe I AM being overbearing and expecting too much of the guild who has just started learning how to raid. Maybe I AM trying to take over.
Well hell, someone’s got to set the bar for excellence. Why not the MT?
Oh, and you KNOW the entire guild threw a giant tantrum over it. My chatbox was a solid wall of Officer Chat text about how irresponsible I was to just “dump the guild and their needs for my own selfish agenda”, and how the restrictions I was putting on the raidgroups were too strict, etc, etc.
Anyone who’s read my blogs over the past few weeks know exactly how the KZ raids have been going. Some nights are great, some nights are horrible. We have no dedicated party balance in the guild, so to stand a chance in KZ, we always have to pug in DPS and/or heals. On the nights that we don’t have to pug, we struggle to find party cohesion and cooperation, much less actually progress anywhere in KZ. Guild runs are feeling more and more like traditional pugs [read: uncoordinated, inexperience, etc.] with each passing day.
So, I finally let my guild know exactly how I felt about the situation by imposing a set of strict “Raid Requirements” guidelines (as posted in my last blog) to help each of the guildies know if they needed to do a little more work outside of Karazhan or if they were prepared for it.
Well, I posted the list, and that’s when everyone went off. “You mean I can’t come unless I have [relevant stat for class]?!?! That’ll take forever!!!” “Oh, Radhja’s trying to control the guild now and keep everyone out of the raids so he can do the bigger raids with other guilds!!”
/sigh
OK, truth be told, I DO run 25-mans with other guilds. I’ve developed a bit of celebrity-hood (or notoriety, depending on who you talk to), and I’m asked to tank a lot of various instances of all levels. I try to help out guildies and personal friends first… most of the time. If I ever get the chance to run Gruul’s, Magtheridon, etc., I jump on the chance without a second thought.
Anyway, I suggested to the guild that instead of running Karazhan and repeating our failures, we should focus on doing the 70-instances and Heroics to increase badge counts and get gear’d before re-entering KZ.
Oh, all hell broke loose at that point.
Finally, the GM chimed in with his commentary, chiding me for misleading the guild intentionally and breaking my promise to those who depended on me to run them thru KZ.
Finally, I lost it. Guys, it takes an immense amount of pressure to make me truly crack, but I couldn’t take it anymore. When the people that I’ve sworn to protect and lead to greener pastures turn on me for trying to make their progression smoother, all bets are off.
So, I got on vent, and I vented.
After two hours of fighting with the GM and the accusing guildies, they finally shut up and started to listen. I gave them my side of the story, explaining precisely why I was imposing these rules. Finally I gave them the ultimatum:
“If I’m going to be MT and Raid Leader, these guidelines will be followed to the specifications we’ve discussed. If they are not, you will once again lose me as MT. I will not tolerate mediocrity when I pour my heart and soul into organizing raids for this guild.”
The next morning, I slept in. It was my off-day, so I log on about 9am and start working on my Skettis dailies, helping one of the guildies complete the chain quests to do their own dailies. Then I notice the Paladin OT I’ve taken under my wing come on, and he tells me that he’s unlearned all his talents and was planning on speccing 20/21/20.
“Why are you respecing?”, I asked.
“Cause you’re giving up on the guild”, he replied.
I suggested a 0/46/15 build to him (one of the default tankadin builds from the forums), and he said he’s already spent the points in a 0/47/14 build.
“Did you put any points into Imp. Reckoning?”, I asked.
For some reason, he refused to answer, so I asked again.
“It’s actually kind of a big deal. I need to know if you put any points in Imp. Reckoning”
Still no answer.
“There is a point to my asking, dude…”
And after a brief silence…
“YOU DNO’T [expletive deleted] CONTORL ME!!”, he replies in officer chat, obviously frustrated.
A fuse blew somewhere in my mind.
Finally, I’d had enough of this guy. The idiot-adin may have been a friend of the GM (whom he had talked into coming over from a horde character on another server to join our guild), but I’d never really liked the guy. I had taken him under my wing to help teach him what I could about tanking, and he had just thrown it all back in my face.
So, I got back on vent told the ungrateful little shit that I was glad that I wouldn’t have to deal with his whiney ass anymore, and that I would intentionally exclude him from any future raiding groups, and put him on /ignore.
Heh… at this point, I was just waiting to be /gkicked, but it never happened. No one said a word to me about it, and just casually kept talking to each other like nothing had happened.
Later that day, I escorted a group thru LBRS to get the UBRS key (which is freakin’ bugged, by the way… make sure you have an [item]Unadorned Seal of Ascension[/item] before you attempt to talk to Vaelan and turn in the quests, or he’ll just stand there and ignore you), and the paladin just bitched in /o about how he wanted to go and how it wasn’t fair that he was being excluded from everything.
I was rolling with cruel laughter.
I’m really not like this most of the time, but I’ve had enough. I’m considering leaving the guild now, but I really don’t want to abandon those who have actually done the work I’ve requested of them. I’m not trying to control people or tell them how to play their characters – I’m simply showing them the best way to accomplish what they want to do by suggesting particular talents (and which ones NOT to take), not change how they play their characters in general.
For example… my brother has a lvl 56 Warlock he’s trying to get to 70. Back when he was lvl 49, he asked me to play his toon for a day or two to level while he was at work. Well, I did, and I took a few liberties with his character without his permission, respeccing it slightly to give him access to his new 41-pt talent (he’d put points into both Affliction and Demonology to get Imp. Shadow Bolt and Bane. I just took those points and applied them to Unstable Affliction when he hit 50). Well, of course he was angry that I’d made changes without his consent, but after explaining what I had done and showing him that nothing had REALLY changed, he began to play it with a few extra spells, and he’s doing much better now. His DPS went WAY up, and he can actually drain tank fairly well. (He still fears in instances a lot, but I’ll work the nubness out of yet!). Even he admitted that he liked the changes I made after some time had passed.
I admit I’m a bit of a control freak, but I’m not going to tell people what spec they HAVE to be. However, if someone comes to me, asking to be trained in the ways of tankhood, I’m going to tell them exactly how I would spec, and WHY. Well, the paly OT refused to hear me out about the spec recommendation, so I cut him off completely.
(By the way, for those who don’t know… the reason you don’t spec Imp. Reckoning is because bosses love to return the favor with strings of Parries, which is ultimately bad for the raid because it stresses the healers beyond belief. Try tanking Prince with Imp. Reckoning on P2 and see how long you survive.)
Maybe I AM in the wrong about all this. Maybe I AM being overbearing and expecting too much of the guild who has just started learning how to raid. Maybe I AM trying to take over.
Well hell, someone’s got to set the bar for excellence. Why not the MT?
Total Comments 8
Comments
 | Your problem is that you are trying to raid with a lot of non-raiders. Karazhan has made a lot of non-raiders break into raiding and they expect gear to be handed to them just for showing up. You need to find people that will spend many more hours farming their stuff than they actually spend raiding. |
Posted 01-26-2008 at 10:05 AM by Rak  |
| |  I would comment on the state with the guild, but I already have, so I'll hold on the salt. I do have one silly question though: Reckoning is a pretty important threat mechanism for paladins at least at the 5 man level, why would you decline that boost in fear of getting chain parried when you could focus on getting expertise gear to offset the risks? Misc note: All good tanks are control freaks/obsessive compulsive at some level. |
Posted 01-26-2008 at 11:54 AM by Alent  |
| |  I don't usually respond to posts or blogs like this, but I was compelled with this one. The way I see it, you have two options. 1. Quit your current guild and find players who are more suited to your personality, play style and focus level. 2. Unplug from the game for a few weeks, catch back up on what the girls in the neighborhood are up to, or "down for" and come back with a fresh perspective. You're the MT. If you have to Micro-Manage your raiders to the point of helping them with their particular spec and or playstyle, either find a new way to go about helping them, or find players who know their class. imo |
| Posted 01-26-2008 at 12:00 PM by Calve |
| | Let me put it in a nutshell and just answer your topic. Yes. You are expecting too much. |
| Posted 01-26-2008 at 12:55 PM by Calve |
| | I'm gonna agree with Rak. TBC put raiding within reach of people who don't "get" raiding. You need to evaluate if your current guild is going to get you to where you want to be. Raiding is fun with the right people. Getting a group of people who are similarly geared and motivated and tackling challenging instances for the sake of the challenge rather than just "WoWArmory says this piece of gear off this boss = upgrade" is a monumental task. While raiding in a guild that isn't "focused" on raiding is possible, it's generally going to be a larger headache than it's probably worth. Without knowing all the facts, it sounds like your current guild has already cast you as the "bad guy", and that's a darned hard image to get rid of. If I were you, I'd do some research on other guilds, or see if there is a coallition of smaller guilds that group together to tackle raid instances without needing to leave their group of friends. Obviously the best option would be to find a guild that is still working on Kara that needs you *and* the group of people who you think have the desire and dedication to progress. The next best option (depending on your server's population) is to just cut loose and form your own guild and form it with the focus of the guild being progression. You will then have the power to recruit the kind of people you're gonna need. Good luck  |
| Posted 01-26-2008 at 03:04 PM by Celuna |
| |  All of your facts seem good; but developing a pile of 70's in to a raiding unit takes time, dedication, and patience. The good news is that it is possible - the bad apples will come and go, the good ones will stay if you have something to offer them, and eventually you'll get there. You do have to want to do it. You can't just want to run KZ for a guild and magically have it happen - you have to want to slowly build up this raiding unit. You have to want to put up with the failures, want to correct and shape the attitudes, want to lead them with discipline and positive thinking even when all seems lost and part of you just wants "to cruelly laugh." You have to want to give them enough play to try things there way for a while; they're humans not bots after all. But it is possible. They'll learn to trust you, and to follow you, and to do their jobs as a team. |
| Posted 01-26-2008 at 03:23 PM by thugthedum |
| |  TBH, as a long-time tank and raid leader for two years.... Your job is not to teach the other people how2play. Your job is to: -MT -Lead Raids If you try to do more than that unsolicited, you will both go crazy and accomplish very little. A lot of personal investment is made by players in their play-style choices, even when they are outright bad ones. They may even know fully that they are non-optimal in ever way, but will not want to hear it in the kind of way you are attempting to tell them. Particularly in the case of DPS, where there is no real apparent negative impact of their being non-optimal, they may simply not care. In their minds, the bosses are still dying plenty fast enough. I think you're both approaching this in the wrong way and attempting to do something that you really arent able to accomplish with a whole guild en mass. |
| Posted 01-27-2008 at 10:56 AM by Joanadark |
| |  Slightly off topic but picking up on some comments regarding non-raiders raiding in TBC. There are several characteristics of a viable raider that become increasingly important as you progress and are in short supply. For example to progress in T4 instances you may find that people that understand their class enough to put together a good spell rotation is enough (together with spec and enchants). T5 isn't a huge step up but will soon expose those people that are lacking in dps or healing no matter how good their gear is. T5 instances will also expose people to the most important and seemingly difficult-to-master aspect of this game: "Environmental awareness". You will find that some people repeatedly die to VR's orbs or A'lar's flame patches. Additionally healers will find themselves have to heal multiple targets due to all the splash damage. People that can only do one thing will soon become a liability. People that make repeated mistakes will not help you progress as too many fights end in disaster as a result of a single mistake. My single biggest piece of advice is to form a core group of raiders within your guild that you can trust. Build around this core and try to recruit preTBC raiders that for whatever reason have not raided much in TBC. There is a far better chance that they will understand the requirements for raiding as well as have experience with "not standing in stuff that kills you". |
| Posted 05-22-2008 at 01:45 AM by Clifford |
Recent Blog Entries by Radhja
- T5, at last! (08-12-2008)
- Abandon Ship! The Phailboat is sinking!!! (06-06-2008)
- <Doja Dojo> takes on Karazhan!! (04-14-2008)
- Epitome of Nubness: Drinking and Raiding (03-23-2008)
- Guild Development, and some MC 1337ness. (03-22-2008)
