An attempt at a hopeful tanking blog, as written by a warrior tank who is just starting the path to Ulduar, with looks into the past, into the present, and plans for the future, as a place those who are walking the same path can go to learn from the experiences of someone who came before them, and can inspire them to get through those all important levels that are so tough to get through alone.
GL vs RL
Posted 05-28-2009 at 04:10 PM by Karisita
So what happens when the raid leader and the guild leader disagree? I didn't know what to do when this happened last night, we were training a new guy on raid ins and outs and policies by taking him through an instance acting as though it were a raid. And the GL kept quiet through most of the instance.
Now I'll be the first to admit, that the rogue was getting on my nerves, the rogue was not the new guy.. he was the experienced raider that was setting the example, by arguing with everything I said, not seriously, but by going "I don't have to do that." or "I follow no order!" when I was marking the kill order on trash pulls. I know I was getting more agitated than I needed to get. And I was firing back, when he said "I can tank too!" I said "fine, go for it." and when he dropped agro because he didn't have the balls to take th licking for his smart ass comments, I picked up everything and tanked it, keeping even the 74 hunter from dying.
Yay me.
But I was snapping back comments, basically telling him to shut his trap. And yes, at the beginning I told to the hunter he was HORRIBLY geared. (74 with only 8k HP? WTF?!) but I also told him that that was in good part our fault. Because we weren't running him places for gear, until of course I learned he'd been finishing EVERY solo quest in outlands. He's one of those loremaster types.
Anyway, she got all upset about it when the hunter pulled a target that was neither marked, nor in position yet... so, pending me figuring out who had agro, I said "How 'bout we let me tank?" I figure that's pretty well standard, y'know, letting the plate wearer tank rather than the hunter's pet. But then she fires off on me and starts telling me to stop bitching, to just let everything go... of course this came at a moment where I was actually NOT bitching, I was taking responsibility because I hadn't thought to tell him that he had to wait until I had the mob back where I want to tank it.
It seems like maybe I want a bit more order than the rest of the guild, which is fine, I can adjust, it's my strong point, but if the GL keeps undermining me like that, how can I handle it? I wound up dropping group, because I couldn't fire back at her because of the fact that I'm an officer and I'm not going to debase myself to a child tossing sand at mommy, but at the same time, I'm not a child, she's not mommy, and I'm not going to run with her if she thinks she can treat me that way. At least that was my first reaction.
Maybe I could have handled that better, I mean we were ONE pull from the last boss...
Now I'll be the first to admit, that the rogue was getting on my nerves, the rogue was not the new guy.. he was the experienced raider that was setting the example, by arguing with everything I said, not seriously, but by going "I don't have to do that." or "I follow no order!" when I was marking the kill order on trash pulls. I know I was getting more agitated than I needed to get. And I was firing back, when he said "I can tank too!" I said "fine, go for it." and when he dropped agro because he didn't have the balls to take th licking for his smart ass comments, I picked up everything and tanked it, keeping even the 74 hunter from dying.
Yay me.
But I was snapping back comments, basically telling him to shut his trap. And yes, at the beginning I told to the hunter he was HORRIBLY geared. (74 with only 8k HP? WTF?!) but I also told him that that was in good part our fault. Because we weren't running him places for gear, until of course I learned he'd been finishing EVERY solo quest in outlands. He's one of those loremaster types.
Anyway, she got all upset about it when the hunter pulled a target that was neither marked, nor in position yet... so, pending me figuring out who had agro, I said "How 'bout we let me tank?" I figure that's pretty well standard, y'know, letting the plate wearer tank rather than the hunter's pet. But then she fires off on me and starts telling me to stop bitching, to just let everything go... of course this came at a moment where I was actually NOT bitching, I was taking responsibility because I hadn't thought to tell him that he had to wait until I had the mob back where I want to tank it.
It seems like maybe I want a bit more order than the rest of the guild, which is fine, I can adjust, it's my strong point, but if the GL keeps undermining me like that, how can I handle it? I wound up dropping group, because I couldn't fire back at her because of the fact that I'm an officer and I'm not going to debase myself to a child tossing sand at mommy, but at the same time, I'm not a child, she's not mommy, and I'm not going to run with her if she thinks she can treat me that way. At least that was my first reaction.
Maybe I could have handled that better, I mean we were ONE pull from the last boss...
Total Comments 13
Comments
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If you were on a run training a new player on the ins and outs of what happens during a guild raid, treating this 5 man as if it were a raid, and your dedicated raider is acting that way, PERIOD, I would have flipped out in whispers on them. They were there to set an example, they failed at their job, plain and simple. If raid leader/guild leaders disagree, personally, I call a bio break, and deal with it then and there in whispers with that person. Whatever the decision is, I'll stand by it. If I disagree I'll take it up with them later, but the hard and fast of it is, that it will get dealt with quickly and professionally, whether it goes the way I like it or not. After the run is done, and after the new person is left with a positive experience will I go down to the nitty gritty with my opposing viewpointers (bad term I know) and get it sorted out.Posted 05-28-2009 at 06:27 PM by Midelus
Updated 05-28-2009 at 10:35 PM by Midelus - I actually live with both my RL and GL (yay for 4 people living together who all play! - sometimes). They tend to come across as good cop-bad cop, which can work to their advantage, and they can have conversations face to face, rather than doing it in whispers or going into another vent channel. The downside comes when they do actually disagree. The arguments can get a bit heated, but it typically boils down to them agreeing to disagree and letting the RL deal with the raiding player, during raid, and the GL dealing with everything else. If someone acts up outside of raid, it's the GL's problem, and if that person is asked to leave, then the RL has little say, even if they're the best raider we have. Because if someone doesn't mesh with the group, we know we're not going to get anywhere. Hope this helps a bit.Posted 05-28-2009 at 10:55 PM by Karith
- Basicaly what Karith said - if you are official and respected RL for your guild, noone, and I mean NOONE is allowed to interrupt your raid leading. Please note I am not saying they should just shut it and do what you think is best, however, they should keep it for whispers or separate voice channel. It's very common for us to jump a channel down with officers and tank / dps / healer coordinators after wipe or before new boss, to discuss tactics for one minute or so. But when we come out, it's only the RL speaking and setting the tactics, and noone else is correcting that.
Quote:the RL deal with the raiding player, during raid, and the GL dealing with everything else. If someone acts up outside of raid, it's the GL's problem, and if that person is asked to leave, then the RL has little say, even if they're the best raider we have.Posted 05-29-2009 at 02:08 AM by TiptoesDMF -
Perhaps I am misunderstanding, if so please disregard.
The rogue in your party was completely out of line by behaving in such a manner. You guys may be evaluating the new recruit, but (s)he is doing likewise to the guild, observing the manner in which the 'raid' is lead, synergy & communication between members and so on. What impression has been made on the recruit when the RL & GM bicker and there's a rogue that thinks he is some kind of lone wolf and can do as he pleases in a teamplay based environment?
Having someone act like the way you described show is a complete lack of respect for yourself as raid leader and the guild leader.
Now, on to the guild leader. Again she was out of line by creating dissent among the officer ranks by sniping at you. When I was a Guild Leader, the times I was on a raid the Raid Leader had pretty much absolute responsibility over the raid. If I had any concerns or comments I would raise them in private after the raid, or if it was an immediate concern, then in whispers.
Raid Leaders are so under appreciated from what I have seen. It's these folk that take what is akin to a herd of elephants with diarrhea and turning them into a cohesive raiding group.
Once again though, if I've misinterpreted, please disregard. I know some people deliberately make a run difficult to put a new recruit through their paces and check if they can think on their feet, but I don't think I've read it as such.Posted 05-29-2009 at 04:23 AM by Pitstarter 
- "And the GL kept quiet through most of the instance."
that caught my attention. Nobody likes to run an instance with 2 ppl bickering and fighting over who tanks what. The GL probably observed you to going at it and eventually exploded, I would too. Remember you're playing with others, they are spending their time with you so try to make it a fun experience not a dick slapping contest.Posted 05-29-2009 at 07:44 AM by bludwork -
Part of me is wondering... why are you "Training" a level 74 in basic group dynamics in the first place?
Posted 05-29-2009 at 11:21 AM by Alent -
Training a lvl 74 character and getting all upset about it is taking things waaaaaaaay to serious.Posted 05-30-2009 at 06:50 AM by orcstar - To an extent, Orcstar is right, I was more serious than I needed to be, but in the end, I wasn't getting upset about anything other than the rogue staunchly refusing to do anything I told him for hours on end.
Alent - I was training a level 74 in basic group dynamics because he's never been in a guild, and he's only gone to instances when he's 20-30 levels higher and can stomp the instance on his own. So when someone's been soloing for 74 levels, they need some instruction on how parties work. We aren't a raiding guild, we are a guild that is looking to raid.
Pitstarter - You're close, except for that the hunter has been a member of our guild for almost a year. His times usually suck, but on his days off he might be able to fill a spot for 10 mans or heroics, then once he's got the gear, we might be able to bring him into something a little more powerful. I'm looking to the future with this guy.
Tiptoes - see that's the thing, I do listen to everyone in my party/raid. Like in the DTK instance where the GL said that we should pull the first group of two deathknights just before the last boss back down the stairs a little bit to keep us from fearing into the pat and the other two mobs. Our second time through I did that, and it worked wonders. Now that's just a part of how I do things. I do listen and adjust, and I can take some criticism and suggestions in the open, no problem, but she directly attacked me in the open, telling me what I had to teach wasn't important. I find that to be unacceptable.
Now on the other hand, having cooled down and talked to those involved, only the hunter realized I was trying to train him in how to function. Everyone else I guess assumed we were just going to run the newbie through an instance for gear to help him solo, despite the fact that I kept stopping and giving him advice, pointers, was instructing him how to function in the party, placing him, and even telling the group several times that instances are where we can train without fear of dying constantly how to function as a raid. Apparently the rogue and GL didn't quite pick up on that, so I suppose I should have been more clear.
Sometimes it just feels like I'm the only one looking forward to raiding and trying to get our people ready before we do it. Ya know? It's like I'm ready to take on the mantle of a RL, but the GL undermining me doesn't help, the rogue ignoring me doesn't help. And I know he's raided before. I know it. He actually got us through another guild's Vault of Archaevon run. But my point is that people seem like they're on board with the idea, but then they work against me. I mean if they don't want to raid that's fine, I'm not worried about that, I can always pug or go with other guilds... but if they keep telling me they want to go to Vault... to Naxx... to Ulduar.. then at some point we need to start acting like it, right?Posted 05-30-2009 at 08:22 AM by Karisita - Get 3 healers, 2 tanks and 5 dps, no matter what class and dive into naxx I'd say? Why wait, you can prepare prepare and prepare more, but all the time you're preparing you're not doing anything. Get stuff done and think later. PuG people even if needed then you'll find the ones who will turn up week after week. The job of a raidleader is a big one, but most important is to get that raid started.
(assuming yuo're going 10 men) Keep the atmosphere happy, /care about whipes make fun and jokes but don't joke on bosses.
If you're raiding it should be fun. The more fun it is the more likely you'll get a steady group.
Fun is a balance though, what's extremely funny to one person might frustrate the other, you as a raidleader should find that balance and what works for your group.
But as I said: don't prepare: act, otherwise you'll be preparing for an entire expansion.
(I do my 25 mens in guild, I tank and take orders from my raidleader, but people really like my 10 men ulduar groups because the fun we have.)Posted 05-30-2009 at 03:56 PM by orcstar - You've got a point Orcstar... we were starting by taking a skeleton crew into Kara to just get the feeling started, I think I may have us bash our heads against Archaevon for an hour instead.
Thank you!Posted 05-30-2009 at 08:48 PM by Karisita - The Guild Leader may have just not been paying attention. I know in my past as a GM I've sometimes been under this haze of responsibility spending all my time with whispers. I didn't even read party chat or guild chat at a certain point because I didn't have the energy to.
As for the Rogue, there's nothing you can do about it now. Someone starts screwing with my tanking for fun after I've told them not to I kick their ass to the curb. I don't care if they are my best friend or my Grandma, do what I ask or I find someone who will.
My current GM and I get along fine (I'm a Raid Leader/Officer as well). If we didn't, as your scenario implies, I would have to leave the guild. I won't allow problem children to meddle with the runs and make them suck/take forever. The only person who has that right is me. :P
If you want to get a raid going just start leading the raids. I've been able to get Naxxramas 25 PUG's going for a while now and 10 man is probably even easier. The problem is that you will run into people you want to bring to the raid who the GM will not allow in the guild because they don't want you having that much control. Get the raids happening but realize you may end up having to strike out on your own if the GM isn't on board.Posted 05-31-2009 at 04:47 AM by minrog
Updated 05-31-2009 at 05:00 AM by minrog - Yeah... I was trying to imply this with the question, but as has already been said... if you're training level 74s and taking it seriously, you have far reaching problems. It's kinda like teaching a 12 year old how to act in a bar... it's going to be 9 years before he can put any of it into practice.
Get him to 80, have him read about how groups work while he's levelling, practice assisting off his pet, and so on. You can review concepts with him but for all that's unholy, don't waste his time and yours with instance runs before he's 80.
Once he's 80, you can show him what he's been reading in action, AND it gets him gear and badges. Also, DPSers like your rogue will be less prone to fuck around if they know that there's a skull on the door.
I'm not an advocate of min/maxing characters, but I am an advocate of min/maxing time. You can bring most people up to speed in incredibly short order simply by not wasting time. As Orcstar has said, once you're actually 80 you can jump into anything, and to make swimming analogy... how many people learn to swim in the kiddy pool, vs the number of people who learn how to swim when they're thrown in the deep end and they have to swim to stay alive?Posted 05-31-2009 at 12:18 PM by Alent - Training a 74 seems like a waste of time. Personally, if the 74 doesn't know how to play, the best way to learn is to fail in terrible groups with other people around that level. And I mean FAIL. Not even to the first boss.Posted 06-11-2009 at 08:54 AM by Insom
