I raid on US-Khaz'goroth as a mage and a protection warrior. Bouncing between Sunwell Plateau and Serpentshrine Cavern and all the zones in-between, I'm one confused raider.
How did it come to this?
I play this game primarily for raiding progression.
On a night of wipes, I always believe the next attempt will clinch the fight for us.
I'm proud of the fact that I was a key raider in TBC and always got a spot in the hardest fights that secured my guild as one of the best raiding guilds in my server.
During the finalisation of WotLK raid composition at the end of TBC, I got the green light to switch from my mage to prot warrior. It was a natural follow up for me - while I dutifully went on raids with my mage, I was organising weekly BT/MH PUGs for my warrior because that was the only way to do new encounters with him. Being able to switch for this expansion, I thought, was everything I could ask for.
In a span of a few months, everything changed. How did it come to this?
Before I proceed, I must explain a little about my guild's tank set-up:
In this expansion, we have 5 tanks. 2 Prot Wars (including myself), 2 Feral Druids and 1 Deathknight.
We have a static MT, a prot war who has been with the guild since MC days. He's an officer and someone so incredibly quiet, I can count with my fingers the number of times he has typed anything in guild chat over two years. Regardless of the fight, progression or farm, he is always the MT. He and the one of the feral druids chalk up near 100% attendance on all raids and can always be count on to do their job well.
The other feral druid is an officer who has to miss some raids because of his work commitment and was quite happy that I am now a tank to help the raid out. The DK tank is also an officer and a warlock reroll with a tendency for fixed ideas despite everything pointing to the contrary, and has on several occasions, wiped us with inappropriate talent specs and gear set-ups.
With the MT position accounted for, the rest of us rotate in and out of OT/dps roles and raid spots. Last week, my guild downed 25-man Sarth +3D. So the only content left is 10-man Sarth +3D.
Now, I don't know if achievements is a blessing or a curse. It has certainly fostered competition in the guild, even acrimony among the two 10-man groups we run. Good players are interchangably poached by one raid leader or another week after week to be the first in guild to get Undying, Twilight Assist, Twilight Duo, etc.
In an ideal world, both 10-man groups would be equally geared and skilled, their roster carefully decided upon. This is, of course, not an ideal world.
Our 100% attendance Prot MT and feral druid tank for the first group. I am the tank of the other group which has difficulties getting enough people on some weeks. For example, my regular tanking partner is a casual member, a very good prot war whose chances at gear, unfortunately, stops at the 10-man level.
Initially, I didn't believe in folding because I was dealt a bad hand of cards or because I lack progression tanking experience. Neither did my raid leader (who undertook the job when he was left out of the first team). And so bolstered by a sense of camaraderie, our ragtag group pushed on.
The benchmark for us was 10man Sarth + 2D. Our third tank was the feral druid officer who was woefully undergeared because of RNG and the raids he had to miss out. We wiped for 2 weeks, in many cases, had trash repopped, recleared, only to wiped again. When we finally got the kill, it was the best feeling I got out of a WotLK fight, made more so because we were the first group to beat the encounter.
That under my belt, I can imagine how far more difficult it would be for 10-man Sarth +3D. I, for one, couldn't wait to make proper attempts at it, even though I know a proper run with the best chance of success would be to combine the best of both groups into a core raid.
And that was what happened last week. Friday night, the officers handpicked 10 people to go in, including the raid leader and a shadowpriest from my 10-man group. The rest of us, lead by the DK officer, went into Naxx for an attempt at the Dedicated Few achievement.
Our prot MT and regular feral druid made the core of that handpicked group, with a hunter who logged on his DK alt to tank the whelps and fire adds. I got to MT Naxx in a raid comprising of our remaining raiders and casual members.
The run mostly ran fine until we got to Thaddius where we wiped on the enrage timer. As the night wore on, people kept dying to charges and missing the ledge (once myself). Eventually, we gave up on the achievement and brought in more numbers. After that, the fights just got sloppier and sloppier. I lost threat on Kel'Thuzad during MC phases and when I got ice blocked. People died, and by the time we cleared Naxx, I felt absolutely wretched. Wretched because I felt responsible for the deaths, and plainly put, wretched because I was wiping the night in Naxx while attempts were being made on 10-man Sarth + 3D.
Ironic, I know. Am I good enough or am I not? Am I being arrogant in wanting to reach for the sky or am I not? I had no idea. Information was never forthcoming. When I first raided as a tank, I had to ask the most incongruous people (the healing officer) about my assignment and tanking spots. And sometimes, I just didn't get an answer. I learned that when the time for raid start had gone past and I hadn't received an invite, it meant I was benched for the night.
A few nights ago, I got for the first time, the clearest indication of my ability or the lack of it.
I was talking to an officer about the possibility of my switching back to being a mage. My guild prefers to go for a range-heavy raid set-up with only a small number of melee. It's an issue I have been struggling with since I began raiding as a prot war in WotLK. I was benched for the first few weeks while naxx was being cleared, and now I can't be in the group that's going to down 10-man Sarth +3D. Conversely, I was told if I were a mage still, I'd be in for almost every raid night, every progression fight.
The possibility of MT rotations is flat out of the question. (our prot MT tanks Sarth in every raid despite the feral druid having a fully enchanted and gemmed FR set) When I first expressed the desire to MT sometimes, some raiders were incredulous and made snide remarks and continue making them up till today.
But the bottomline was - if I wanted to be in consideration for serious progression, I must switch back to my mage. Our conversation was overheard by the progression feral druid who basically summed it up for me - I was unable to achieve 100% attendance for starters and in short "You are not good enough for progression."
Soon after, I was told kindly and tactfully that I was an exceptional mage, but only a good warrior tank, and the guild already has an exceptional warrior tank.
Tanking is where my heart is now, not dps. And like every other server, there is a glut of raid-ready tanks out there, hoping for spots in guilds that may or may not down the Sarth+3Ds of the game.
I've gotten 2 Proto-Drakes, and a host of other achievements on my warrior. I've powerlevelled a new profession for that extra raiding edge, and spent a fortune on his tanking and dps sets.
Frustrations of playing a tank aside, I have felt very valued as a mage. It's..almost as if I became a different person to the guild the moment I changed classes.
I want to see new content, share the sense of exultation that accompanies a first kill.
I have been given a grace period to decide if I want to ditch my warrior for mage before the guild finalises the raid set-up for Uldaur.
I think I may just quit the game.
On a night of wipes, I always believe the next attempt will clinch the fight for us.
I'm proud of the fact that I was a key raider in TBC and always got a spot in the hardest fights that secured my guild as one of the best raiding guilds in my server.
During the finalisation of WotLK raid composition at the end of TBC, I got the green light to switch from my mage to prot warrior. It was a natural follow up for me - while I dutifully went on raids with my mage, I was organising weekly BT/MH PUGs for my warrior because that was the only way to do new encounters with him. Being able to switch for this expansion, I thought, was everything I could ask for.
In a span of a few months, everything changed. How did it come to this?
Before I proceed, I must explain a little about my guild's tank set-up:
In this expansion, we have 5 tanks. 2 Prot Wars (including myself), 2 Feral Druids and 1 Deathknight.
We have a static MT, a prot war who has been with the guild since MC days. He's an officer and someone so incredibly quiet, I can count with my fingers the number of times he has typed anything in guild chat over two years. Regardless of the fight, progression or farm, he is always the MT. He and the one of the feral druids chalk up near 100% attendance on all raids and can always be count on to do their job well.
The other feral druid is an officer who has to miss some raids because of his work commitment and was quite happy that I am now a tank to help the raid out. The DK tank is also an officer and a warlock reroll with a tendency for fixed ideas despite everything pointing to the contrary, and has on several occasions, wiped us with inappropriate talent specs and gear set-ups.
With the MT position accounted for, the rest of us rotate in and out of OT/dps roles and raid spots. Last week, my guild downed 25-man Sarth +3D. So the only content left is 10-man Sarth +3D.
Now, I don't know if achievements is a blessing or a curse. It has certainly fostered competition in the guild, even acrimony among the two 10-man groups we run. Good players are interchangably poached by one raid leader or another week after week to be the first in guild to get Undying, Twilight Assist, Twilight Duo, etc.
In an ideal world, both 10-man groups would be equally geared and skilled, their roster carefully decided upon. This is, of course, not an ideal world.
Our 100% attendance Prot MT and feral druid tank for the first group. I am the tank of the other group which has difficulties getting enough people on some weeks. For example, my regular tanking partner is a casual member, a very good prot war whose chances at gear, unfortunately, stops at the 10-man level.
Initially, I didn't believe in folding because I was dealt a bad hand of cards or because I lack progression tanking experience. Neither did my raid leader (who undertook the job when he was left out of the first team). And so bolstered by a sense of camaraderie, our ragtag group pushed on.
The benchmark for us was 10man Sarth + 2D. Our third tank was the feral druid officer who was woefully undergeared because of RNG and the raids he had to miss out. We wiped for 2 weeks, in many cases, had trash repopped, recleared, only to wiped again. When we finally got the kill, it was the best feeling I got out of a WotLK fight, made more so because we were the first group to beat the encounter.
That under my belt, I can imagine how far more difficult it would be for 10-man Sarth +3D. I, for one, couldn't wait to make proper attempts at it, even though I know a proper run with the best chance of success would be to combine the best of both groups into a core raid.
And that was what happened last week. Friday night, the officers handpicked 10 people to go in, including the raid leader and a shadowpriest from my 10-man group. The rest of us, lead by the DK officer, went into Naxx for an attempt at the Dedicated Few achievement.
Our prot MT and regular feral druid made the core of that handpicked group, with a hunter who logged on his DK alt to tank the whelps and fire adds. I got to MT Naxx in a raid comprising of our remaining raiders and casual members.
The run mostly ran fine until we got to Thaddius where we wiped on the enrage timer. As the night wore on, people kept dying to charges and missing the ledge (once myself). Eventually, we gave up on the achievement and brought in more numbers. After that, the fights just got sloppier and sloppier. I lost threat on Kel'Thuzad during MC phases and when I got ice blocked. People died, and by the time we cleared Naxx, I felt absolutely wretched. Wretched because I felt responsible for the deaths, and plainly put, wretched because I was wiping the night in Naxx while attempts were being made on 10-man Sarth + 3D.
Ironic, I know. Am I good enough or am I not? Am I being arrogant in wanting to reach for the sky or am I not? I had no idea. Information was never forthcoming. When I first raided as a tank, I had to ask the most incongruous people (the healing officer) about my assignment and tanking spots. And sometimes, I just didn't get an answer. I learned that when the time for raid start had gone past and I hadn't received an invite, it meant I was benched for the night.
A few nights ago, I got for the first time, the clearest indication of my ability or the lack of it.
I was talking to an officer about the possibility of my switching back to being a mage. My guild prefers to go for a range-heavy raid set-up with only a small number of melee. It's an issue I have been struggling with since I began raiding as a prot war in WotLK. I was benched for the first few weeks while naxx was being cleared, and now I can't be in the group that's going to down 10-man Sarth +3D. Conversely, I was told if I were a mage still, I'd be in for almost every raid night, every progression fight.
The possibility of MT rotations is flat out of the question. (our prot MT tanks Sarth in every raid despite the feral druid having a fully enchanted and gemmed FR set) When I first expressed the desire to MT sometimes, some raiders were incredulous and made snide remarks and continue making them up till today.
But the bottomline was - if I wanted to be in consideration for serious progression, I must switch back to my mage. Our conversation was overheard by the progression feral druid who basically summed it up for me - I was unable to achieve 100% attendance for starters and in short "You are not good enough for progression."
Soon after, I was told kindly and tactfully that I was an exceptional mage, but only a good warrior tank, and the guild already has an exceptional warrior tank.
Tanking is where my heart is now, not dps. And like every other server, there is a glut of raid-ready tanks out there, hoping for spots in guilds that may or may not down the Sarth+3Ds of the game.
I've gotten 2 Proto-Drakes, and a host of other achievements on my warrior. I've powerlevelled a new profession for that extra raiding edge, and spent a fortune on his tanking and dps sets.
Frustrations of playing a tank aside, I have felt very valued as a mage. It's..almost as if I became a different person to the guild the moment I changed classes.
I want to see new content, share the sense of exultation that accompanies a first kill.
I have been given a grace period to decide if I want to ditch my warrior for mage before the guild finalises the raid set-up for Uldaur.
I think I may just quit the game.
Total Comments 7
Comments
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From what I can see you are a fantastic asset to the guild, but I think you are missing one very vital point: You are being used.
From what I can see you push hard, you help gear people up, you help them improve and when they are good enough...they get snagged by the "primary" raid team.
If they feel that you arent good enough, then why dont they help you improve? If they feel you are "not good enough", ask them to come along on a raid in your team or you in theirs to de facto show you what you are lacking in their eyes. Hell, you could even sit down with the other tanks and simply ask them what they would want you to improve.
Ask them if they have ever considered that Ulduar may be a bit different and perhaps it could be high time to let someone else work on the (ever so seemingly precious) Main Tank spot? What happens if you will suddenly need a pool of equally skilled tanks and only one person has been MT?
I am tank "class leader" in our raid community and I have made it a point to rotate all tanks so that they are able to step up and fullfill any role. This forces us all to learn all aspects of raid tanking, come up with new ideas and thanks to this we sometimes gain some new perspective and learn more about how to do things.
What has happened due to that is that the tanks really look out for eachother; they check who could benefit the most from an upgrade, they check who would be best for any particular bossfight and then offer advice on who should tank and the best of all is that there is a TOTAL lack of the e-peen syndrome thanks to this. We dont got tanks for different spots now, we got a tightknit group who support eachother and can step up when needed.Posted 02-03-2009 at 06:55 AM by twoswords 
- I've never thought of it that way before, in reference to your point that I'm being used. After reading your comment, I mentioned that I feel like a different person to the guild now that I'm a tank to a officer I'm closer to, his response was "but that's the way of the world?"
Now that I've had that said to me, yes, I DO feel used. I don't have access to what goes on in the officers' channel, like how I can't comprehend why our prot MT is the one main-tanking all the Sarth+3D attempts when we have a far better tank, geared and prepped to do the job.
For a long time in TBC, we had 3 tanks, our prot MT and the 2 feral druids. We've had multiple prot war offtanks come and go, citing rl commitments, and sometimes no reason for leaving. Not being part of the inner circle again, I don't know if officer politics were involved.
For now, I'm a newcomer in that tanking circle, and most of the time, when I ask questions, I'm met with resounding silence. I could interpret it as having problems easing into a group that already know exactly how they work together. But even more, it feels like struggling to get into a cartel that doesn't welcome you, feels threatened because they feel I want to usurp their place and dismiss their years of tanking senority. And yet it isn't something I can't call out on it because of its ambiguity.
I believe in making my intentions clear, and I'd be deceiving myself and everyone if I said I was contented to be solely a offtank. Even in my 10-man runs, I alternate the MT role with my less-geared tanking partner because I recognise that it's not fun to be dpsing when you want to tank, or hold monopoly on a job so important there should always be back-ups.
Some people in my guild have latched on my words and interpreted it as me saying I want to MT all the time. Every now and then, they'd bring it up. This was what gave me my first hint that my desire to tank was offensive to some.
I honestly don't think there is anything wrong in aiming to MT sometimes. Yet due to the fact that we never had another MT in 3 years (for reasons unknown to me) - intentionally or not, the status quo is so strong that it feels unthinkable, and even creates a fertile ground for provocation to suggest otherwise.
But more than anything else, there is that deep, ghastly silence from everyone, and against such a faceless wall, I know now whatever I say, will be pointless.
I now truly see before me three choices -
1. Switch back to mage, treat this whole incident as a bad dream and go back to being at the top of the food chain. This guild values results and I can give them the results they want as a mage.
2. Stay on as a warrior knowing that I cannot change things and will not be in the position to change things. Eat it all up, tough out the next year and see if things improve.
3. Quit. Having had my eyes opened to how things work now, I'm not so sure I can brush the ugliness from my mind and go on raiding like nothing ever happened.
It's eating me because I'm standing on the edge of the first 2 options, and thinking of the 3rd option to avoid choosing either.Posted 02-04-2009 at 01:53 AM by Elyvern
Updated 02-04-2009 at 09:02 AM by Elyvern - I know where you're from. I switched from being top dps hunter to one out of the five tanks we've got in the community. It takes a while to settle in.
I've been lucky enough to have a relatively understanding, kind community, that allowed me to switch in the first place. Thankfully we don't have a set maintank (well our druid is ordered to tank just about every end boss, but that's something else) and we rotate tanks. I've made damn sure I pull my weight, and gearwise I've been slightly ahead still.
From your post it does become perfectly clear you'll never be more than an offtank for your guild. Ask yourself if you can live with that. If not, well there's switching back to your mage, or leave… I guess it really is that simple. Doesn't make the decision any less hard though! I wish you good luck with that.
Posted 02-04-2009 at 05:51 AM by Aethelas - You just gotta make a choice dude. Sadly if your guild is good and as serious about progression as you say they are just going to take the best. From the individual player point they're leeches that use then discard, from a leadership standpoint they have a goal, and they have their resourses and they'll use the resourses to get to their goal. It aint right, it aint wrong, its just a price you pay to being in a guild who's primary goal is progression. It probably wont change any time soon. You'ev put some time and effort into the guild so I can see why it would be tough to leave but taking your warrior out to find another raiding guild is probably going to be your best bet. Leave your mage in your old guild and see what comes of it. The only way your going to probably get a MT position in the core raid group is if something happens to one of the current MT's.
One other thing, you were feeling bad on Kel'Thuzad because of not holding agro..... Don't, as a tank its your job to pick up any mob and build threat to "THE BEST OF YOUR ABILITY". I put that in caps for a reason. Your DPS's job is to DPS while staying behind you on threat. If your throwing out threat as best you can and someone pulls off you, its their fault not yours for them not watching their Threat Meter. They may have better gear than you. A perfect example of this is my first Nax run I was a 900 dps frost tank (thats pretty bad) i went in with 3k dps players, mostly old friends. These guys could have pulled off me at will, however they were all skilled players and new how to max their dps while staying behind my threat. Naturally after the run I worked on my Gems, Enchants and Inscryptions to put out mroe DPS but the point is your DPS's job is to put out as much DPS while staying behind you in threat. Now if something runs straight past you and into the range to lay havic, its your fault :-P. Look at your gear, Armory other warriors and see if you can fine tune things, don't blame yourself. That just leads to all the wrong places for a tank. You have to be one of the most confident players in that team, not arrogant though. Just be sure of yourself, stick with it and I'm sure you'll make a great tank.Posted 02-04-2009 at 07:00 AM by Rainael - You're right Raineal, I shouldn't feel insulted or butt-hurt because yes, it's a progression guild with specific goals to achieve.
I've had the experience of rolling a healer class just to get raid spot, even though I detested healing. And now I am raiding with a class I like, something which not everyone is fortunate enough to be doing.
What I like about my guild is it is relatively nepotism-free and meritocratic. But lately, I can feel those standards slipping. Coming from a great mage community (our GM is a mage and rewards commitment and skill in us), the sense of hostility, palpable ego-trips even though shrouded in obfuscation in the tank community is a rude shock.
I came in expecting the same chances I had as a mage, (it's not too much to ask for, this is the same guild) and to prove what I am capable of. I've never been carried as a mage, and I do not intend to be carried as a tank. I was never told "you're not good enough" as a mage. If I made mistakes, I ask to be informed of them and I improve.
More than anything else, I have lost so much respect for the tanks in my guild. I used to think so highly of them, but now exposed to the protectionistic ways they work to secure their spots and exclude others...it's a very bitter pill to swallow.Posted 02-05-2009 at 01:14 AM by Elyvern - Ur so gonna be gkicked, i will see u ingame!!!!
Posted 02-09-2009 at 11:36 AM by damaintank - Elv, the conversation that night started with you felt that you are 2nd grade tank, the truth is nobody thinks that you are 2nd grade tank, you yourself think so. Then later on your said that you didn't want to talk to me, so i just gave you my short answer that "You are not good enough yet." It wasn't mean for progression, not your gear, not your skill, just some of your mindset about tanking in general.
Tbh, i never find tanking is really such big deal thing, you, me are just nothing as tank without all other teammates putting effort and get their job done. I really dunno what is your obsession on 'MTing' stuff, you really don't need to actually 'MTing' something to show ppl that you can tank, any tom dick and harry can MT stuff with sufficient gear and talent spec, lesser gear? throw in a few more healers! Lesser threats? Dps control on threat and have more hunter and rogues help on transfer threat! As said, a tank is just nothing without all your other teammates doing their job.
Remember the other question that i ask whether if you can commit 100% attendance? The main reason why we always put lao on MT position on most progression fights for a simple reason, you know he will always there for every raid night. As for yourself, you know that your job can have sudden unstable schedule and you will be suddenly unable to raid for like few weeks which has happen in the past, tanking role is a responsibility, is not the same as your dps mage role in the past, a raid may work with 1 less dps, but a raid likely won't work if a core tank missing. You really cant expect the raid progression just halt there due to your personal schedule issue. Place the guild interest instead of your own especially when it comes to guild progression. If it works better to put you in to win this 10-men Sarth+3D fight, go ahead and talk to RL and tell them what you can do better and advantage you have versus other tank for this fight.
As for i prepare my FR set and yet we still use Lao to MT for 25-men Sarth+3D, i don't see anything wrong there. In fact any tank works fine for this, depending on what is your raid comfortable with and strategy used. I don't see myself being a better tank than lao even i get my FR set ready, it is just an alternative option that i like to be ready and provide while we learning the fight.
I find it funny that you think this is our protectionistic ways to secure our raid spots and exclude others, the fact is, we don't need to. We have been tanking for the guild for the pass few years, with our attendance, with effort put in, we already proven ourselves. TBH i am more than happy that some1 else can step out and take over the tanking task and i enjoy more dpsing as kitty which i know i can output competative dps versus other melee dps. We are not a hardcore guild, our raid time per week is limited, hence most ppl prefer to do farm content with most comfortable and easy way that we used to do so we can end raid early and every1 can rest early.
Look at how to fit yourself best into a raid boss fight, instead of keep thinking about why RL don't put you tank this or that. If only 1 tank is needed, then just let the usual tank do the job, offtank something or dps. If another DK or Bear tanking something and you have no assignment, step out and swap with them if you know they can do better dps than yourself. As for myself i never ever want to snatch other prot war tanking assignment if given a choice so i can play the strength of my class and able to dps when needed, battle rez or innervate when needed.
Uldur is coming, dual-spec is coming too, if you have so much time to be bothered by silly stuff like this, go learn how to dps as a fury TG war, that will make yourself worthwhile more. There are only so few tanks, and mostly different classes and not much gear competition, in fact, all tanks in raid work as a team and there should not have competitions. Don't bring your old mage dps community mentality into the tanking circle, as tanks, we don't compete with each others in raid, we work with each others to get the job done.
1 more last thing i would like to say is, don't be so self-centered while you are tanking in party/raid. Do not expect everyone else must always ready and following your pace, you are the one who is suppose to looks after everyone else as a tank. It happen a lot of times in instance and raid, you just rush off and pull mobs, while healers still busy rezzing ppl, drinking, and still miles away. Go get some raid frame mod with range indication, check status of each raid members regularly, healers mana status, buff status, especially before you going to pull another group of mobs. I did mention this to you before quite a few times, but your response for me is sorta like stop trying to lecture you. So is all up to you if you want to listen or not, before you can drop your self-centered tank mentality, my answer for you is still "You are still not good enough yet."Posted 02-12-2009 at 01:42 AM by Bluegene
