A blog about being casual, and sometimes about how good orcs look in plate.
Are Vehicles a Good Idea?
Posted 02-20-2009 at 06:32 PM by Corisa
Really a simple question, as there seems to be a lot of noise on both sides of this issue. Is it a good idea for a full raid vehicle encounter to start Ulduar? I'm definitely opposed, so I'll try to minimize the QQ as much as possible... bear with me!
The last post I made to my blog was about how Malygos was going to nuke my raid in phase 3. I don't want to say I told you so, but after some practice and nailing the positioning and spark management, we were able to reach phase 3 in good time... and that's where all of our best attempts stop.
Why? Well, first of all Aces High is miserable practice. It just isn't a good substitute for the actual encounter with healing others or interacting with both your raid and Malygos. Secondly, (disregarding the daily) it is essentially requiring your raid to learn a character class in the middle of an encounter. Energy? Combo points? Heals on the drakes, wtf "finishing moves?" This ties in with my gripe about Aces High, why should you need to find an obscure daily quest to practice for a raid encounter? We should not have to hound our guildies to get to Coldarra to learn the drake for phase 3 Malygos... If we need to mount up to end the encounter, it should be more natural and you should need to ride a drake earlier in a somewhat trivial circumstance.
Malygos has made me very much opposed to vehicles in vital raid content. However, I thought the hover discs were cool - you ride it and navigate in three dimensions while still controlling the class you mastered. Not everyone is required to pick one up and the leaders can pick and choose who is going up to fight. I just wish the raid was still working directly with the boss while you sent melee to handle the floaters and then return to the actual engagement.
That's the basis for my opinion, so back to the point: Now we get another full vehicle encounter - and I'm not going to try to hide my opposition to this concept. Sure, we will eventually master the drakes and kill Malygos - but is this going to be a problem again when 3.1 hits? Should I be hounding people to copy to the PTR to get their practice in? It's like a hidden attunement: Master the gimmick to proceed... Unfortunately Malygos is calling my guild out as one unfit to handle gimmicks.
If I could chat with the developers, a few questions about the Ulduar vehicles come to mind:
1. Why is a full vehicle event the opener to Ulduar and not held off until later or even optional with some incentives?
2. If the goal is to recapture the wonderful RTS days, why all siege weapons? I still had grunts and raiders alongside my demolishers. Does the whole raid really need to be in vehicles?
3. Will the gauntlet be sufficient practice for the boss encounter in terms of proper use of the vehicle's abilities and raid interaction versus the boss?
4. Will the different vehicle types have clearly defined/straight forward roles?
I'm doing my best to reserve judgement until I try it, but it's rough. I hope I'm wrong and it's a ton of fun, but there is a line between challenging and frustrating... I hope they are very careful to not cross it.
The last post I made to my blog was about how Malygos was going to nuke my raid in phase 3. I don't want to say I told you so, but after some practice and nailing the positioning and spark management, we were able to reach phase 3 in good time... and that's where all of our best attempts stop.
Why? Well, first of all Aces High is miserable practice. It just isn't a good substitute for the actual encounter with healing others or interacting with both your raid and Malygos. Secondly, (disregarding the daily) it is essentially requiring your raid to learn a character class in the middle of an encounter. Energy? Combo points? Heals on the drakes, wtf "finishing moves?" This ties in with my gripe about Aces High, why should you need to find an obscure daily quest to practice for a raid encounter? We should not have to hound our guildies to get to Coldarra to learn the drake for phase 3 Malygos... If we need to mount up to end the encounter, it should be more natural and you should need to ride a drake earlier in a somewhat trivial circumstance.
Malygos has made me very much opposed to vehicles in vital raid content. However, I thought the hover discs were cool - you ride it and navigate in three dimensions while still controlling the class you mastered. Not everyone is required to pick one up and the leaders can pick and choose who is going up to fight. I just wish the raid was still working directly with the boss while you sent melee to handle the floaters and then return to the actual engagement.
That's the basis for my opinion, so back to the point: Now we get another full vehicle encounter - and I'm not going to try to hide my opposition to this concept. Sure, we will eventually master the drakes and kill Malygos - but is this going to be a problem again when 3.1 hits? Should I be hounding people to copy to the PTR to get their practice in? It's like a hidden attunement: Master the gimmick to proceed... Unfortunately Malygos is calling my guild out as one unfit to handle gimmicks.
If I could chat with the developers, a few questions about the Ulduar vehicles come to mind:
1. Why is a full vehicle event the opener to Ulduar and not held off until later or even optional with some incentives?
2. If the goal is to recapture the wonderful RTS days, why all siege weapons? I still had grunts and raiders alongside my demolishers. Does the whole raid really need to be in vehicles?
3. Will the gauntlet be sufficient practice for the boss encounter in terms of proper use of the vehicle's abilities and raid interaction versus the boss?
4. Will the different vehicle types have clearly defined/straight forward roles?
I'm doing my best to reserve judgement until I try it, but it's rough. I hope I'm wrong and it's a ton of fun, but there is a line between challenging and frustrating... I hope they are very careful to not cross it.
Total Comments 4
Comments
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The answer to your post is "Yes." but hear me out:
One of the best fight mechanics is to put a player into a new setting. Levelling the playing field to see who is better at adapting to this new situation as well as using it to the best of it's ability.
Arguement against being "Well I didn't level a certain character to be thrown into something else"
Refutation: But, if things are equal, it takes the platform out of the equation and you're able to see what's left - raw skill.
It's a fight gimmick that's not really new (kara chess,) and embraced by some but not by others...for one reason: It's either hard (maly phase 3 is hard until you spend some time in phase 3) or it's easy off the getgo (i.e. razuvious10 tank adds.) Simply put - it leads to alot of wipes. Which makes one think that the situation is less fun.
Basically, it's tough to evaluate an encounter that you have to play through (especially if it's getting the better of you.) Myself I hate the disk-phase because Slam is damn near impossible to use on scions. With some practice though, my guild got it, and started stacking the DoT really well.
I also reserve my opinion of the vehicle encounter...I do think it'd be interesting to take gear and class out of the equation on a fight at the beginning and test a raid's skill to progress...rather then free loot later on (a-la chess event)Posted 02-20-2009 at 10:13 PM by Conreeaght 
- I think that vehicles have added a very interesting aspect to the game. Admittedly, I've started doing Aces High to practice for the Malygos run we're doing next week, and I was lost for quite a while. Even though I played a rogue before I played my tank, the drakes took a few tries to get used to. So, yes, throwing characters into a new "class" mid-raid is jarring. Although, I think it's something that you can get used to.
Hopefully the vehicles that they introduce in Ulduar will have a clear goal. I think that it would be easier on the raid if they put the vehicles at the start. If they're the first thing you encounter, we're less likely to be upset if the raid fails a few times with the vehicles without having to do any wipe running or going back through previous phases.Posted 02-20-2009 at 10:58 PM by Yora -
Yes, its a great idea
first off, these vehicles have a limited number of new abilities to use, it isnt hard to use them at all. it will most likely be like malygos where the best dps rotation was so simple it wasnt funny.. 1-1-2 repeat
second, it adds a new aspect of raiding. most boss encounters in the game are exactly the same, or near it. they A, hit really hard, have a short enrage timer, then have one thing that sets them apart, weather it be an aura or something that you have to pay attention to.
three, at most the flame leviathan will have 2 parts to it, one where you break down his defenses then you jump on him and kill him. it doesn't sound hard at all.
its a simple fact that some people will never be able to wrap their head around multiple phased bosses no matter how hard it is.
being the opening boss to ulduar it will most likely not be difficult at all.Posted 02-21-2009 at 11:36 AM by squats 
- Throwing characters into a new role is nothing new. It goes back even farther than TBC. BWL you had to have people control dragons to break eggs in one of the first fights. Naxx first time around was like 25man Raz, priests tanking for the first time ever with MC, and it included other pain in the butt movement. But the conecept is nothing new, its just something you need to adjust and adapt to.
I would expect that the gauntlet before the first boss will involve some wipes and eventually we will clear through it will no issue. Its called raiding and you shouldn't expect to waltz through every encounter.Posted 02-21-2009 at 11:55 AM by Kexil
