Tank Skill (WoW wins over AoC)
Posted 07-03-2008 at 12:12 AM by Ciderhelm
I'll keep this brief, because I'd like to expand on it later.
WoW's 5-mans require reaction and reflex at a level that other content really does not. This is especially true the quicker you pull packs of mobs. Being able to near-instantly respond to a target moving towards a healer, being able to handle multiple mobs through rapid tab targeting, these kinds of things let a Warrior really push ahead in terms of overall skill. There's no real point where a Warrior feels powerless in a 5-man if their healer is alive (granted, there may be points where new Warriors feel they aren't fast enough and become frustrated, but there's no hard cap on the potential at this stage).
Age of Conan (AoC) has some good concepts in it's combat system. However, it's combo system, where abilities require specific sequences of keystrokes to go off, makes much of tanking a zero-skill, unenjoyable experience.
Imagine in WoW if you pressed Shield Slam and needed to wait 5 seconds for it to go off or the Shield Slam was canceled. No matter how good that Shield Slam is, you're put in a retarded situation if you need to cancel it to pick up a runner. Even worse, all of the auto-attack damage you may have dealt while casting was returned in health to your target. That's what AoC is every step of the way.
After actually parsing out the abilities and their innate Hate bonuses in AoC, I was left completely unimpressed. It turns out everything is roughly normalized to produce the same Threat (some abilities which deal less damage provide more Threat to make up for it). Since mobs can put up varying amounts of shields on three parts of their body, the entire system of ability selection is 'attack the side that's unguarded.'
The next sin of AoC is it's relentless damage normalization. For those who remember when instant abilities in WoW were normalized, imagine that, but substantially worse from day 1. Instead of Mortal Strike, dealing Weapon Damage +X, we get Overreach, which deals 120% DPS. Not 120% Damage, but 120% DPS, the overall attack time, including latency, involved in the execution of an ability. Attack damage is even normalized to the length of the animation -- not the actual timer of the ability, but the animation. Funcom was apparently blindsided by discovering that their artists had given male and female animations slightly different timers, thus causing males to have substantially more DPS than females on certain classes and abilities. That's the kind of thing that is so stupid it can't be made up.
Normalization occurs elsewhere: lengthy mathematically-generated gear is the only kind of gear in the game. To be more specific, there was apparently no one who actually looked at the class gear.
Take the Guardian equivalent of Dungeon Set 1 -- the Indomitable set. When these are the first blue items you get, you can feel pretty happy about it. Until, that is, you start noticing bonuses like Mana on Full Plate, the one type of armor that cannot be worn by a Mana user. Or maybe you notice the flaw when you find armor 7 levels below your set that have substantially higher invulnerabilities and overall stats (the equivalent of Armor).
The class requires zero reaction time or thought to perform at top notch. Playing a Guardian well is a shadow of what it takes to play a WoW Warrior well. It's sad to say, but leveling it is far more entertaining than doing anything at endgame. From what raiding I've done, it looks similar to WoW, which at least gives a reason to keep playing to see if things turn upward (minus the fact that every single encounter is, at various times of any given week, completely broken, and there is apparently no Funcom test team).
It's not to say the Guardian is bad. In fact, it's probably the most fun class I've leveled in any game. The static combo system I described above works fine in a situation where you're not in any danger of losing aggro. The Guardian is amazing at AOE grinding, has a much more fluid playstyle. It also has something Warcraft needs now -- a large amount of natural health regen while in Defensive Stance.
Every MMO is rocky at the start; the concern is trends. Hopefully they fix this mess they've made by taking the easy way out on their endgame.
On a separate note, as I've said many times in the last two months, I'm greatly looking forward to WotLK.
WoW's 5-mans require reaction and reflex at a level that other content really does not. This is especially true the quicker you pull packs of mobs. Being able to near-instantly respond to a target moving towards a healer, being able to handle multiple mobs through rapid tab targeting, these kinds of things let a Warrior really push ahead in terms of overall skill. There's no real point where a Warrior feels powerless in a 5-man if their healer is alive (granted, there may be points where new Warriors feel they aren't fast enough and become frustrated, but there's no hard cap on the potential at this stage).
Age of Conan (AoC) has some good concepts in it's combat system. However, it's combo system, where abilities require specific sequences of keystrokes to go off, makes much of tanking a zero-skill, unenjoyable experience.
Imagine in WoW if you pressed Shield Slam and needed to wait 5 seconds for it to go off or the Shield Slam was canceled. No matter how good that Shield Slam is, you're put in a retarded situation if you need to cancel it to pick up a runner. Even worse, all of the auto-attack damage you may have dealt while casting was returned in health to your target. That's what AoC is every step of the way.
After actually parsing out the abilities and their innate Hate bonuses in AoC, I was left completely unimpressed. It turns out everything is roughly normalized to produce the same Threat (some abilities which deal less damage provide more Threat to make up for it). Since mobs can put up varying amounts of shields on three parts of their body, the entire system of ability selection is 'attack the side that's unguarded.'
The next sin of AoC is it's relentless damage normalization. For those who remember when instant abilities in WoW were normalized, imagine that, but substantially worse from day 1. Instead of Mortal Strike, dealing Weapon Damage +X, we get Overreach, which deals 120% DPS. Not 120% Damage, but 120% DPS, the overall attack time, including latency, involved in the execution of an ability. Attack damage is even normalized to the length of the animation -- not the actual timer of the ability, but the animation. Funcom was apparently blindsided by discovering that their artists had given male and female animations slightly different timers, thus causing males to have substantially more DPS than females on certain classes and abilities. That's the kind of thing that is so stupid it can't be made up.
Normalization occurs elsewhere: lengthy mathematically-generated gear is the only kind of gear in the game. To be more specific, there was apparently no one who actually looked at the class gear.
Take the Guardian equivalent of Dungeon Set 1 -- the Indomitable set. When these are the first blue items you get, you can feel pretty happy about it. Until, that is, you start noticing bonuses like Mana on Full Plate, the one type of armor that cannot be worn by a Mana user. Or maybe you notice the flaw when you find armor 7 levels below your set that have substantially higher invulnerabilities and overall stats (the equivalent of Armor).
The class requires zero reaction time or thought to perform at top notch. Playing a Guardian well is a shadow of what it takes to play a WoW Warrior well. It's sad to say, but leveling it is far more entertaining than doing anything at endgame. From what raiding I've done, it looks similar to WoW, which at least gives a reason to keep playing to see if things turn upward (minus the fact that every single encounter is, at various times of any given week, completely broken, and there is apparently no Funcom test team).
It's not to say the Guardian is bad. In fact, it's probably the most fun class I've leveled in any game. The static combo system I described above works fine in a situation where you're not in any danger of losing aggro. The Guardian is amazing at AOE grinding, has a much more fluid playstyle. It also has something Warcraft needs now -- a large amount of natural health regen while in Defensive Stance.
Every MMO is rocky at the start; the concern is trends. Hopefully they fix this mess they've made by taking the easy way out on their endgame.
On a separate note, as I've said many times in the last two months, I'm greatly looking forward to WotLK.

Total Comments 12
Comments
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Posted 07-03-2008 at 05:35 AM by Caulle |
| | ick. I haven't experienced much in terms of group dynamics in AoC so my basis for comparison is limited. I have been following the work Cider and Temig have done. I dunno. I'm off AoC at the moment. I've had to work out of town all week and didn't miss logging in. When I did get home, I found myself logging into Wow instead. Definitely looking forward to WotLK. Not throwing in the towel yet, but not near as excited as I was. |
Posted 07-03-2008 at 05:47 AM by Horacio |
| | Teehee. That gives the expression "to hit like a little girl" a whole new dimension. ![]() So uh... play AoC to level, and WoW to raid/endgame? |
Posted 07-03-2008 at 06:00 AM by Khordam |
| | Play Wow to have fun. Play AoC if...you like pretty graphics and the idea of siege warfare eventually. |
Posted 07-03-2008 at 06:10 AM by Horacio |
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Combat in AoC is billed as fast paced but it is in fact, quite to opposite. The only saving grace is the directional attacks but that still falls short. High level combos involve up to 5-6 keystrokes...and you can't know them and mash them fast, they require a delay. There's much less thought involved. Much less trade off. "Do I have enough rage? How much threat do I have? Can I bump up my threat and risk a crush? Can I build a little rage and unload HS/Dev spam? How long till BR is up? TC/Demo up? Sure, as a Conq, I had decisions and timers to monitor if I were tanking. Keeping Guard up, Feint debuff on target, Lumbering Hulk. For me it boils down to this: For whatever reason, despite the cartoony graphics and gnomes running around and whatnot, I feel the visceral "kachunk" of a shield slam and the ripping of a Devestate through my opponent's armor. There was a certain disconnect in AoC. I understand the math in Wow and its easily applied even though its fairly complex. Thanks to the work of people like Satrina and Cider, I know what I'm doing. In AoC, as stated above, its all kinda vague and it all seems to equivocate to standing there mashing button sequences all over again but in long, unreactive chains like following a script. And as for PvP....how often you think any opponent is going to stand still and eat your 5 button combo? Try never unless you stun them and even then, in large scale PvP the odds of getting it off are few and far between. PvP will be reduced to level 10-20 skills and the tiny few one shot combos unlocked by feats. Really, I liked leveling and seeing a new world. In theory, I like alot about the Conqueror class and my wife absolutely LOVED the Tempest of Set class. Perhaps if Funcom hadn't handled the game so poorly, I could stil muster some enthusiasm for certain aspects of it but now....I don't know. Eh, sorry for hijacking teh blog | |
Posted 07-03-2008 at 07:40 AM by Horacio |
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It sounds similar to the system that the devs in SWG went to during the NGE. You actually had a queue of abilities in a window on the right side of the screen and if something changed, like a mob running, you had to stop what you were doing, let the queue clear and start over. They didn't have combos, but it was rather akward IMO. Personally I can't wait for WotLK. I just don't see another game taking my attention for a while. Maybe Warhammer or if Marvel ever gets another backer (since Microsoft backed out) I might check out Marvel Online or Star Trek, its just hard to say right now. | |
Posted 07-03-2008 at 09:42 AM by Vissara Updated 07-03-2008 at 11:57 AM by Vissara (i can't speel =P) |
| | About the only thing that could draw me away from WoW would be if someone really did a good job with the SW license. I'd such a huge fan of that world. I'm looking forward to Wrath, but I'm VERY concerned for my class. It seems we are being rushed/left for last again. |
Posted 07-03-2008 at 10:45 AM by Honorshammer |
| | I'm actually looking for a emulator for SWG. I've heard rumors of a pre-CURB server, but haven't been able to find it. It was such a great game until then. Being a part of the CURB Alpha is what made me quit. They put in so many changes that the Alpha 'testers' (We were told we would get to play-test the proposed changes, yet they never actually gave us a server. We read forums for the duration before they went to open beta on it) never liked or had several concerns about that i quit once it went live. |
Posted 07-03-2008 at 11:57 AM by Vissara |
| | I've been following the trickle of information coming out about the alleged BioWare/KotOR MMO project and they are effectively keeping a tight lid on information. It would be foolich to be any appreciable distance into the development cycle and not get the hype machine rolling even if they were going to temper expectations responsibly entirely unlike Funcom. As such, I believe it will be quite a ways off. Not sure even if BioWare will be involved, what the actual setting will be, etc. Just that there is a fair amount of rumor out there about an all new SW based MMO. |
Posted 07-03-2008 at 01:15 PM by Horacio |
| | I would be really interested in that. Where are you getting this info? |
Posted 07-03-2008 at 02:18 PM by Vissara |
| | BioWare has official forums and there are a few "rumor" threads to be found there. Eh, little snippets here and there. Google it. MMORPG.com. Site sucks and is full of whiners and fanbois for every game but there is a rumor thread on there. |
Posted 07-03-2008 at 02:45 PM by Horacio |
| | Oh, Cider, I tried to tell you, my account ended because the card I used to subscribe broke and i replaced it. Couldn't log in for a week or two before I realized this (stupid me), but I'm kinda back in full swing on WoW and D2Exp for some reason so Until I hear better changes, I probably won't be coming back to AoC for a bit. =( |
Posted 07-07-2008 at 11:11 AM by Kazeyonoma |
Recent Blog Entries by Ciderhelm
- Map to End All Maps (Part 1) (07-14-2008)
- AOC Raiding Impressions (vs. WoW) (07-08-2008)
- Tank Skill (WoW wins over AoC) (07-03-2008)
- Barrow Dens Are Where Dreams Are Sent To Die (03-16-2008)
- I Hate Raiding. (03-09-2008)








