A blog about the game behind the game™.
Many articles or features were originally posts from Wowhead.
About the author: Arideni, a veteran of World of Warcraft, now contributes often through freelance writing at the Wowhead database. Usually found pondering the meaning of life, Arideni's unique perspective allows for insightful conversation.
His current projects include a weekly forum discussion, "Topic of the Week," which can be found reposted here as well as his own opinions & theories, and two guides maintained for the Wowhead Warrior Forums.
Many articles or features were originally posts from Wowhead.
About the author: Arideni, a veteran of World of Warcraft, now contributes often through freelance writing at the Wowhead database. Usually found pondering the meaning of life, Arideni's unique perspective allows for insightful conversation.
His current projects include a weekly forum discussion, "Topic of the Week," which can be found reposted here as well as his own opinions & theories, and two guides maintained for the Wowhead Warrior Forums.
Controlling the Crowd Control
Posted 10-08-2008 at 10:49 AM by Arideni
I recently read a post by my friend Veneretio which dealt with "The Druid Complex." The premise is that druids felt, and feel, the need to compensate for whatever reason. You can read his post, in its entirety, by going here.
So let's talk about crowd control.
As a seasoned tank, I no longer focus on excess crowd control. I prefer to have at least a rogue, hunter, or warlock in my group most of the time, but usually I'm more concerned with player competency than class ability.
It wasn't always like that, though. Back when The Burning Crusade was first released & groups were just learning the level 70 dungeons such as Shadow Labyrinth it was hard to find a good, hassle-free group. It wasn't unusual to ask for a mage, rogue, or hunter to at least have one form of crowd control for the large pulls. But for the budding tanks who were a step ahead, because we as tanks had to be, the numerous forms of crowd control available were as much nuisance as they were beneficial.
Players want to use crowd control.
Many players feel they have something to prove. Nothing brings out this feeling like that of a class which, in the mainstream mindframe, brings nothing to a group except damage. This occurs most frequently with rogues & hunters as they are very popular classes. Aside from dealing damage, what exactly are these players doing 90% of the time? Picking their nose? Clipping their toe nails?
Blizzard has taken care to help address these issues over the years. It affected me personally as my rogue saw several changes to Sap. It used to be that the ability would remove a rogue from Stealth. Only rogues with a few points in another talent tree could Sap & return to Stealth. That was changed to make it easier to obtain those talent points. Then the talent was removed completely & all rogues were given this ability. As for hunters, the trap cooldowns were changed, but they were also allowed to place traps during combat.
When players such as rogues & hunters join groups, they know that next to nothing is expected of them. They are high in supply & easily replaced. They are completely disposable.
I'm just trying to help!
So hunters often ask for a target icon to trap, rogues often go ahead & Sap if there are no icons. This comes from an overwhelming since of, just as Veneretio stated, insecurity. They know they are disposables deep, down inside & want desperately to show how great of a player they are. They want to contribute their portion to the group — to belong, to earn, to perform.
You don't always have to help.
Just do your job. That's all we want & if we need you, that's great! I'm glad you're a capable player who is willing to go above & beyond your calling. However, there is a time & place for everything. Let me do my job, and then you can better do yours without having to nullify the experience. For some tanks just want a big mobfest for the thrill of it all. For some tanks, there's nothing else left in this game.
Editor's note: Writing this post made me realize a very valuable lesson in real life at the workplace: just do your job, not everyone else's.
So let's talk about crowd control.
As a seasoned tank, I no longer focus on excess crowd control. I prefer to have at least a rogue, hunter, or warlock in my group most of the time, but usually I'm more concerned with player competency than class ability.
It wasn't always like that, though. Back when The Burning Crusade was first released & groups were just learning the level 70 dungeons such as Shadow Labyrinth it was hard to find a good, hassle-free group. It wasn't unusual to ask for a mage, rogue, or hunter to at least have one form of crowd control for the large pulls. But for the budding tanks who were a step ahead, because we as tanks had to be, the numerous forms of crowd control available were as much nuisance as they were beneficial.
Players want to use crowd control.
Many players feel they have something to prove. Nothing brings out this feeling like that of a class which, in the mainstream mindframe, brings nothing to a group except damage. This occurs most frequently with rogues & hunters as they are very popular classes. Aside from dealing damage, what exactly are these players doing 90% of the time? Picking their nose? Clipping their toe nails?
Blizzard has taken care to help address these issues over the years. It affected me personally as my rogue saw several changes to Sap. It used to be that the ability would remove a rogue from Stealth. Only rogues with a few points in another talent tree could Sap & return to Stealth. That was changed to make it easier to obtain those talent points. Then the talent was removed completely & all rogues were given this ability. As for hunters, the trap cooldowns were changed, but they were also allowed to place traps during combat.
When players such as rogues & hunters join groups, they know that next to nothing is expected of them. They are high in supply & easily replaced. They are completely disposable.
I'm just trying to help!
So hunters often ask for a target icon to trap, rogues often go ahead & Sap if there are no icons. This comes from an overwhelming since of, just as Veneretio stated, insecurity. They know they are disposables deep, down inside & want desperately to show how great of a player they are. They want to contribute their portion to the group — to belong, to earn, to perform.
You don't always have to help.
Just do your job. That's all we want & if we need you, that's great! I'm glad you're a capable player who is willing to go above & beyond your calling. However, there is a time & place for everything. Let me do my job, and then you can better do yours without having to nullify the experience. For some tanks just want a big mobfest for the thrill of it all. For some tanks, there's nothing else left in this game.
Editor's note: Writing this post made me realize a very valuable lesson in real life at the workplace: just do your job, not everyone else's.
Total Comments 11
Comments
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I can't feel too annoyed at rogues sapping or hunters trapping without request before the pull. That shows skill and initiative, and should be encouraged. Following marks denies skill and initiative to the point of boredom, is slow, and (unless the situation absolutely requires it) is only going to be enjoyable by a certain, not very good, personality of leader.
What distinguishes good or bad DPSers is what they do during the pull, and after a few pulls. When they see that your style is to tank the whole pack, do they stop CCing or do they say "OMG give me an icon to trap!!!". Do the hunters place their traps instead at the healer's feet? Do they misdirect? Do the rogues blind and kidneyshot mobs that have the wrong aggro target? Do the mages freeze, pull, silence, or even sheep during combat appropriately?
Players should be versatile and use their abilities to better deal with the mobs as the situation demands. They should not just follow instructions regarding those abilities, or just do DPS. Of course following instructions is relatively easy, while using your abilities correctly takes skill, and you can be noob or expert at it. Players need that skill. Don't assume that players will mess up unless they stick to the marks.Posted 10-08-2008 at 11:20 AM by Machus 
- You really think rogues, mages etc. want to CC because they feel insecure? Maybe they want to have fun too, and to some that means doing more than pressing 2222222.
In my opinion tanking is by far the most interesting job in a group. Actively discouraging people from spicing up their play seems a bit selfish to me.Posted 10-08-2008 at 01:51 PM by Finn - "Actively discouraging people from spicing up their play seems a bit selfish to me"
Well its not about discouraging people from spicing things up, its just about whats best for the group. Maybe this point is debatable, but I think most people feel that if the tank/healer can handle 3 mobs at once, then its safest to let them handle all 3 rather than have them handle 2 and CC the 3rd.
Obviously its about a balance, and there are extremes at both ends that are bad. I think the point though is that it is hard for some DPS to understand that sometimes its best to not CC everything that you can; that things go faster and smoother when the tank has aggro for the entire fight.Posted 10-08-2008 at 04:31 PM by ratman -
Spicing up the tank experience.
My point is not to discourage the use of one's abilities, but to get the job done. The most effective way for me to get the job done is to assume as much control over the situation as possible. As tanks, we are in the prime position to determine success or failure.
The cases in which players CC without being asked are ironic. I have experienced rogues who sap one of only two creatures in a pull with a paladin tank in a Heroic.
I have experienced in the past hunters who were not talented for holding traps, and repeatedly dying, who still offer & ask for icons to CC.
These are situations in which it's just easier, quicker, & less risky to let the tank control the situation.
Who here has not tanked a creature only to have a mage repeatedly sheep it? This is what I stress, and shall follow up with another CC post soon to clarify the pros of CC since this is more along the lines of "Careful, I don't want you to steal my glory."Posted 10-08-2008 at 07:22 PM by Arideni - I take offense at your last comment! j/k!
But playing a mage and several tanks among other classes, I think I see both sides of the coin. As a warrior or druid tank, even though I may outgear an instance, and can hold aggro on 3-4 mobs, I'd still like it if there is some CC around. It does make my job easier.
Mages and tanks have a special bond because of the sheep mechanics. For example, I learn that in a bad pull that brings an extra pack of mobs than usual, my tank is going to TC, cleave, swipe, consecrate and hope to get the initial aggro on as many mobs as possible. Breaking sheep is the least of my worries.
If I were on my mage, I'd anticipate the tanks doing that, and keep spamming sheep on my designated target and hope that after awhile the tank will move his pack of aggroed mobs further away. In hairy situations like this, every mob that can be cced means the group survives longer. So please trust me to do my job as well. It doesn't mean that you can tank 8 mobs and survive that you should.
And just a caveat - spamming sheep is the best interrupt on spellcasting mobs. If you are fully whaling on a mob, my sheep isn't going to cause the mob to run after me. The number of attacks landing on that sheeped mob will also prevent health regeneration from happening, but what I succeed in doing is stopping all those holy novas, chaining mindflays and fireball volleys that ZA flame casters, SWP and IC trash like to spam cast better than any other interrupt can. (sheep can even prevent IC trash rogues from vanishing)Posted 10-08-2008 at 09:35 PM by Elyvern
Updated 10-08-2008 at 09:41 PM by Elyvern - I agree with what a lot of you are saying, but I'm saving it for my next post, =P Don't worry, I am not a CC-hater, I just feel everything has a proper time & place.
Posted 10-08-2008 at 09:46 PM by Arideni - My main is a rogue. My rogue has plenty to do on any given pull, other than sap. Sapping is not terribly exciting stuff. Personally, I'd rather the tank simply said "Rogue, kill the caster in back while pick up the melee." Tanking/killing elite casters is MUCH more fun than sapping.
How I manage an pull will vary greatly from tank to tank. Some tanks like to grab lots of targets and hold them. In those cases, I'm dpsing target 1 until I get close to pulling, then hitting target 2, etc... If I'm about to pull and the mob is at 20% health, I stun them and finish them off. If a mob breaks loose I can blind them, stun them, or hit avoidance and tank them. If the tank is taking too much damage, I spend my combo points on stuns so the healer can catch up.
My job is to make life easier for the tank. They can walk away from a mob at 20% to go pick up the next one knowing their dps can finish it off. If my tank is holding 4 mobs and one peels off, they don't have to panic because their dps can handle that one. Good dps doesn't make things boring, it gives a tank many more options in how to handle a pack.
There is a HUGE difference between and semi-afk rogue pressing 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 6, 5, 2 (rinse repeat) and a good rogue. As with most classes it comes down to player skill and an understanding of how to group effectively.Posted 10-09-2008 at 07:26 AM by McBash - Yes, what the rogue said ^^
Posted 10-09-2008 at 02:02 PM by Machus - Imo, if CC annoy you, just break it, in the long run they catch the message. The only CC you can't break is banish.
What is really annoying is CC'er who don't keep their target CC'ed. Any mage can sheep his target. Can you keep it sheeped if it break? No? Then don't it. You wanted the job? Do it well or don't do it at all.
I rather deal with no-CC than deal with unreliable CC, because in the first case, I plan ahead considering I have no CC.Posted 10-10-2008 at 09:16 AM by djiss - Also death. Dead mobs very rarely break CC, at least for several hours. For some soft caster mobs, it's the best method.
I agree with the attitude that CC must be perfect, if used at all. I either worry about the mob, or I don't. I either tank it or I don't. I can't watch the mobs and see if I need to tank them because they broke CC. That especially applies to hunters (either chain trap perfectly or don't).Posted 10-10-2008 at 05:59 PM by Machus - Machus: You described my stance on CC (especially Freezing Trap) very well. Honestly, I do still babysit CC just because I know it's going to break (though I now rarely ask for a trap). Bad thing is, Ice Trap is probably one of my favorite forms of CC.
Posted 10-11-2008 at 04:53 PM by Arideni
