Andenthal's thoughts and philosophies on life, WoW and beer.
"Well...what if.....???"
Posted 08-09-2008 at 10:43 PM by Andenthal
I've seen a statement on this website (and many others as well) that kinda irks me. It has nothing to do with the individual making the comment, nor usually the topic of discussion. I think it's just part of the territory of being a Main Tank. You are looked upon as a leader, a mentor, and one who always knows what to do.
I'm going to try to use a generic topic that I see fairly often. Don't get so much caught up in my example - it's just an example!!!
The statement usually goes like this:
OP: I rarely worry about gearing for +hit or expertise, as I feel that gearing for EH gives me a bigger advantage on bosses.
PosterA: While that is nice there are times where you NEED to gear for threat, such as <insert 1 random boss> where survivability is a non issue.
PosterB: Avoidance is gooder than EH lolz!!
OP: Well...what if my healers get silenced/need to move/killed/banished/go to the coffee shop/get abducted by UFOs. That way I can survive 1 extra hit, and dont have to rely on my avoidance or procs to do so.
Something along those lines....you get the idea. Now don't get me wrong. Each poster has valid points. The OP it not wrong gearing for EH, especially depending on the encounter and his state of progression. I think it's widely accepted that the faster you progress, the larger the benefits of EH. Plus, he never said the other options were inferior, just stated his preference.
PosterA is also correct in that you should keep threat in mind when gearing. Half of your job as a tank is to mitigate damage. The other half is to hold aggro on the mob. Completely ignoring either one of those duties makes for a bad tank.
Poster B - while crude - also has a valid point. There are some fights where Avoidance is far superior to EH. It's also been said that maximizing Avoidance when you all ready meet the EH minimums for a boss yields far superior survivability. Also, in my mind, a tank that only has 1 set of gear is gimping himself and his raid. Gear for the encounter if you can help it. Learn what's ahead of you, and how to best deal with it.
Now, the part that really chaps my hide is when the OP retorts to both posters. He did good on the first post, but blew it when he opened his mouth a second time.
Firstly, in his original post he is just stating his opinions. He does not say, "this is how it should be." That alone does not require you to defend yourself. If I say that I like Pepsi better than Coke, no one can call me on that. I did not say Coke was bad, I simply stated that my preference was something other than Coke. Now you can disagree with me, that is your right. But your disagreement does not mean I am wrong.
Secondly, it's the way he defends himself. He's using an example that could happen in any scenario. If something happens to your healers as a tank, you're likely toast. There are somethings you can do depending on your class, but most times you die. If you bring healers with 8/8 T6 into Karazhan, the possibility of death is still there. Illhoof could sacrifice them, while DPS ignores the Demon Chains. Prince could drop Infernals on their heads every 15 secs.
So here's what I'm trying to get at.....
No one can be prepared for every single situation. It's impossible. What you can do is be prepared for likely situations. "Gee, this boss enrages at 20%, I should save my cooldowns for then if I can help it." If you are tanking a boss and a healer dies, what do you do? Pop a trinket? Chug a potion? What if 3 healers die? Blow Shield Wall? Last Stand? What if all the healers die? What if this, what if that......
I'm just tired of seeing tanks - well respected, well traveled, Main Tanks - riding the "What if?" train. Get off of it all ready
Each member of the raid needs to be responsible for their own part of the raid. Eating a crushing blow is usually due to the tank missing an ability (special bosses aside). No heals during silences are due to HoT classes not paying attention. Low DPS is usually due to DPSers not standing in the right place and dieing. Can you compensate for 1 person's lack of trying? Of course you can. But that's not your job. Your job is to be the best you can be. Your job is not to make sure you can over come obsticles made by other people. Your job is to make sure you do not create hurdles for others to have jump over. This goes for all 25 members inside the instance - not just the MT.
If 1/2 of your healers die due to either unlucky events, or just plain not paying attention - it is not the tank's job to fix it. It was the healers job to not stand in the freaking fire in the first place. Trying to have the menality of "I need to fix anything that could possibly go wrong ever" is inherently flawed.
Most encounters in WoW are extremely scripted. If performed well, you know exactly what will happen. With the exception of the first few guilds downing the newest of bosses, there's no big surprise what will happen at any point in the encounter. Due to that, you should prepare yourself as such. Per the example above - a boss enraging at 20% - easy to predict, and easy to prepare for. Pocket Watch? Check. Stoneshield pots? Check. Haste potion? Check....wait...Haste potion??? WTF??? Well... what if 4 of my top DPS guys die and the boss is at 2%?? What if?? Then you wipe, and try again. Tell the DPS to get out of the freaking fire/hellfire/void zone/cleave range/cave-in/worm hole - because that's thier job. YOUR job is to tank the mob to the best of your abilities. Ensure you mitigate enough damage for your healers to heal, and output the maximum amount of threat so your DPS can do its job.
I say again. It is not the tank's job to ensure every little thing that could possibly go wrong is covered in the tank's backpack. Are there scenarios in a raid where a tank should pull out a few tricks? Of course there are. That's why you're main tanking and not the guy with 44 points in the Fury tree. That's your specialty - to pull freaking rabbits our of your hat when crap hits the fan blades. That's why you talented for Last Stand, that's why you have Shield Wall bound to space bar
. But there's somethings you can not prepare for - nor should you.
Each member of the raid needs to do their own job. A Rogues job is to stab the crap out of the mob. This typcially means they ought to say alive long enough to do so. That's why Blizzard has given them tools to do so. Cloak of Shadows, Vanish, Evasion. Etc, etc, for every class and role in the raid. A tanks job is to tank - plain and simple. It is not the tank's job to ensure he can stay alive when there are only 2 of 7 healers left alive. It is not the tank's job to DPS the boss down that last 1% of health because the Hunters forgot to move. That belongs to other members of the raid. For most fights - you do not expect someone else to take over tanking duties should you die. Why do tanks somehow feel the need to compensate for other player's goof-ups? Tanks need to stop holding the hands of members in their raids. They will learn from it, trust me. Your raid did not come from Attunmen to Illidan without learning a thing or 2.
Trial by fire - mess up and do it again. Having every possible potion, every possible trinket, every possible wrench in the tool box only softens your raid. All they learn from that experience is: if I mess up, the MT will save my ass. What they need to learn is: if I mess up, the raid wipes.
Tank your mob(s) - let the raid handle what they are supposed to be doing. I can just about gaurantee the individuals, and the raid will be stronger for it.
**Disclaimer***
I do not mean that a tank should come unprepared to a raid. Bring everything you think you will need...as a tank.... Leave the other roles to other members of the raid. But try to find that balance of being prepared, and holding the hands of those that are not.
I'm going to try to use a generic topic that I see fairly often. Don't get so much caught up in my example - it's just an example!!!

The statement usually goes like this:
OP: I rarely worry about gearing for +hit or expertise, as I feel that gearing for EH gives me a bigger advantage on bosses.
PosterA: While that is nice there are times where you NEED to gear for threat, such as <insert 1 random boss> where survivability is a non issue.
PosterB: Avoidance is gooder than EH lolz!!
OP: Well...what if my healers get silenced/need to move/killed/banished/go to the coffee shop/get abducted by UFOs. That way I can survive 1 extra hit, and dont have to rely on my avoidance or procs to do so.
Something along those lines....you get the idea. Now don't get me wrong. Each poster has valid points. The OP it not wrong gearing for EH, especially depending on the encounter and his state of progression. I think it's widely accepted that the faster you progress, the larger the benefits of EH. Plus, he never said the other options were inferior, just stated his preference.
PosterA is also correct in that you should keep threat in mind when gearing. Half of your job as a tank is to mitigate damage. The other half is to hold aggro on the mob. Completely ignoring either one of those duties makes for a bad tank.
Poster B - while crude - also has a valid point. There are some fights where Avoidance is far superior to EH. It's also been said that maximizing Avoidance when you all ready meet the EH minimums for a boss yields far superior survivability. Also, in my mind, a tank that only has 1 set of gear is gimping himself and his raid. Gear for the encounter if you can help it. Learn what's ahead of you, and how to best deal with it.
Now, the part that really chaps my hide is when the OP retorts to both posters. He did good on the first post, but blew it when he opened his mouth a second time.
Firstly, in his original post he is just stating his opinions. He does not say, "this is how it should be." That alone does not require you to defend yourself. If I say that I like Pepsi better than Coke, no one can call me on that. I did not say Coke was bad, I simply stated that my preference was something other than Coke. Now you can disagree with me, that is your right. But your disagreement does not mean I am wrong.
Secondly, it's the way he defends himself. He's using an example that could happen in any scenario. If something happens to your healers as a tank, you're likely toast. There are somethings you can do depending on your class, but most times you die. If you bring healers with 8/8 T6 into Karazhan, the possibility of death is still there. Illhoof could sacrifice them, while DPS ignores the Demon Chains. Prince could drop Infernals on their heads every 15 secs.
So here's what I'm trying to get at.....
No one can be prepared for every single situation. It's impossible. What you can do is be prepared for likely situations. "Gee, this boss enrages at 20%, I should save my cooldowns for then if I can help it." If you are tanking a boss and a healer dies, what do you do? Pop a trinket? Chug a potion? What if 3 healers die? Blow Shield Wall? Last Stand? What if all the healers die? What if this, what if that......
I'm just tired of seeing tanks - well respected, well traveled, Main Tanks - riding the "What if?" train. Get off of it all ready
Each member of the raid needs to be responsible for their own part of the raid. Eating a crushing blow is usually due to the tank missing an ability (special bosses aside). No heals during silences are due to HoT classes not paying attention. Low DPS is usually due to DPSers not standing in the right place and dieing. Can you compensate for 1 person's lack of trying? Of course you can. But that's not your job. Your job is to be the best you can be. Your job is not to make sure you can over come obsticles made by other people. Your job is to make sure you do not create hurdles for others to have jump over. This goes for all 25 members inside the instance - not just the MT.
If 1/2 of your healers die due to either unlucky events, or just plain not paying attention - it is not the tank's job to fix it. It was the healers job to not stand in the freaking fire in the first place. Trying to have the menality of "I need to fix anything that could possibly go wrong ever" is inherently flawed.
Most encounters in WoW are extremely scripted. If performed well, you know exactly what will happen. With the exception of the first few guilds downing the newest of bosses, there's no big surprise what will happen at any point in the encounter. Due to that, you should prepare yourself as such. Per the example above - a boss enraging at 20% - easy to predict, and easy to prepare for. Pocket Watch? Check. Stoneshield pots? Check. Haste potion? Check....wait...Haste potion??? WTF??? Well... what if 4 of my top DPS guys die and the boss is at 2%?? What if?? Then you wipe, and try again. Tell the DPS to get out of the freaking fire/hellfire/void zone/cleave range/cave-in/worm hole - because that's thier job. YOUR job is to tank the mob to the best of your abilities. Ensure you mitigate enough damage for your healers to heal, and output the maximum amount of threat so your DPS can do its job.
I say again. It is not the tank's job to ensure every little thing that could possibly go wrong is covered in the tank's backpack. Are there scenarios in a raid where a tank should pull out a few tricks? Of course there are. That's why you're main tanking and not the guy with 44 points in the Fury tree. That's your specialty - to pull freaking rabbits our of your hat when crap hits the fan blades. That's why you talented for Last Stand, that's why you have Shield Wall bound to space bar
. But there's somethings you can not prepare for - nor should you. Each member of the raid needs to do their own job. A Rogues job is to stab the crap out of the mob. This typcially means they ought to say alive long enough to do so. That's why Blizzard has given them tools to do so. Cloak of Shadows, Vanish, Evasion. Etc, etc, for every class and role in the raid. A tanks job is to tank - plain and simple. It is not the tank's job to ensure he can stay alive when there are only 2 of 7 healers left alive. It is not the tank's job to DPS the boss down that last 1% of health because the Hunters forgot to move. That belongs to other members of the raid. For most fights - you do not expect someone else to take over tanking duties should you die. Why do tanks somehow feel the need to compensate for other player's goof-ups? Tanks need to stop holding the hands of members in their raids. They will learn from it, trust me. Your raid did not come from Attunmen to Illidan without learning a thing or 2.
Trial by fire - mess up and do it again. Having every possible potion, every possible trinket, every possible wrench in the tool box only softens your raid. All they learn from that experience is: if I mess up, the MT will save my ass. What they need to learn is: if I mess up, the raid wipes.
Tank your mob(s) - let the raid handle what they are supposed to be doing. I can just about gaurantee the individuals, and the raid will be stronger for it.
**Disclaimer***
I do not mean that a tank should come unprepared to a raid. Bring everything you think you will need...as a tank.... Leave the other roles to other members of the raid. But try to find that balance of being prepared, and holding the hands of those that are not.
Total Comments 4
Comments
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I think you missed the point of why progression raiders gear for Effective Health. It is specifically to overcome the unexpected events like the interrupts, silences, movements, deaths, etc. It is precisely because you can take more hits that you can go each pull a little longer and learn more about abilities from a combat log that didn't end the first time something went wrong.
What you're saying makes sense, but only in the context of a guild that knows everything going in; a guild that knows the strategies inside and out; a guild that has the gear to handle the many mishaps that can happen along the way. In other words, it's good for farm content. It's also good this late in the game, where players easily outgear every encounter they see (outside of Sunwell) thanks to new badge and instance loot.
How you gear after you've brought down an encounter does not matter. You only gear for the encounters you're facing next, not the ones you're already bringing down.
If I'm the Raid Leader, I'm the Main Tank, and I'm a guild member wanting my guild to succeed, you better believe I'll make every effort to overcome player mistakes. Why? Because I, as a tank, am in the unique position of being able to compensate for them. Being a tank isn't just taking damage, it is controlling chaos, and you're not at the level you should be if you've never taught yourself to react to things going wrong.
As far as bad players, every guild has them. Every guild of every progression has players who aren't great at every encounter. You can wipe until they learn their job, or you can adjust for them and make it through the encounter -- I will take the latter any day, if only because getting more experience and more overall raid gear tends to overcome their problems w/ that encounter anyway.Posted 08-10-2008 at 01:05 AM by Ciderhelm
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So true. It's usually easier to adjust and compensate for the lesser skilled players. Those lesser skilled players are also typically fun to have around. One of my off tanks was just... so slow on reaction time. But he's easily the funniest guy I know, and could always put the raid in a good mood through his jokes on vent. Do I cut a guy for a more skilled player? I could, but then there'd be a lot less funny on vent. Simple solution: give him all the easy assignments.Quote:As far as bad players, every guild has them. Every guild of every progression has players who aren't great at every encounter. You can wipe until they learn their job, or you can adjust for them and make it through the encounter -- I will take the latter any day, if only because getting more experience and more overall raid gear tends to overcome their problems w/ that encounter anywayPosted 08-11-2008 at 07:35 AM by Caulle
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Pft, I just like bragging that I popped Shield wall and executed the boss down from 1% solo.
;P
Seriously though, I agree with you, AND with Cider. It happens, shit hits the fan, does that mean you just auto wipe when 3 rogues die? of course not, you try to make the best of the attempt, I understand the point you're getting at, especially making bad players learn to play, but sometimes, you just have to cover for them for the greater good.Posted 08-11-2008 at 12:20 PM by Kazeyonoma
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Posted 08-11-2008 at 04:30 PM by mero12513












