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View Full Version : Pally Tanking, how is it affected now we have MoP patch?



Parthos
08-28-2012, 09:23 PM
I have heard that we will no longer be able to fully cap mitigation (except when trinkets proc). What is the % for caping, has it changed from 102.5%? The agro system is changing as well and I am eager to know what I need damage mitigation, hit and expertise at for MoP. And does anyone know what is the best talent alocation is?

Fetzie
08-29-2012, 03:07 AM
You can no longer cap CTC.

The reforging I will be doing will be hit cap (7.5%), expertise soft-cap (7.5%), then mastery.

sifuedition
08-29-2012, 01:26 PM
Stacking stam with trinkets, etc for bosses and a mastery set for trash? My understanding is the two roll system makes block on bosses too unreliable. With many block roll chances on trash, mastery performs better. I admittedly don't have enough research into it at the moment, but I know the people I trust for these answers are here. =)

Airowird
08-29-2012, 01:34 PM
1) It's just as reliable as it was before in pre-CTC, the only difference is that now, compared to the old system, you just allow only (100% - avoidance) of your block chance to actually work.
2) you may block far more on trash, but you also get more swings in. The only relevance is that on trash, 4 swings in a row don't mean potential danger/wipes.
3) Hit & Expertise provide all tanks with the resource they need for their defensive ability. This resource gain (and the resulting buff uptime) provides far more control over your survival than other stats.

For more info, see Fetzie's signature link :)

sifuedition
08-29-2012, 01:41 PM
Pally still has a max 6 sec out of 9 on the uptime though, right? So 1/3 of the time, we are subject to dodge/parry rng and cds?

Airowird
08-29-2012, 01:49 PM
Perhaps, but you are subject to RNG the rest of the time as well, only more hit/exp and avoidance/mastery reduces the damage you take overall, making it less stressy for your healers.

sifuedition
08-29-2012, 02:23 PM
Warning! All of this may be my misunderstanding. I am trying to relay the way I have undestood my research to clear up anything I may be wrong about.

So, we get the 30% damage reduction buff from ShotR that lasts six seconds which simulates block cap. Assuming we have enough hit/exp to maximize HP generation, then we have a minimum of 9 seconds to generate 3 HP. Once we have that 3 HP, we have to decide if we want to ShotR to apply the damage reduction again or WoG to heal up a little. During any low damage periods we may bank the extra 1 or 2 HP for a little better coverage at a higher damage time.

Any idea if during that 3 seconds gap (or longer if we WoG) we are getting our **** pushed in? It seems that is what I was hearing about the beta. Not sure how that will relate in DS which wasn't designed around the way the new systems work.

I am guessing since Fetzie and Airowird have both said mastery still that we do not need to go stam for "worst case" which must mean boss damage is not necessarily life threatening during those gaps? As I understand it, this is likely to make Pally the highest damage intake tank now that the 5.0 systems are in, correct? Any suggestions about those gaps beyond cd/trinket usage as needed?

Edit:
Honestly, this is almost sounding like prot pallies will almost need to script our encounters. e.g. Standard rotation until 2:15 and bank HP while boss summons adds. WoG and quick HP for ShotR + cd while dps burns adds. etc. etc. Not that we don't do a fair share of that now but before I was largely "scripting" my cds. Now it seems I will want to script my rotation to match damage phases of the fight.

Parthos
08-30-2012, 04:30 AM
thank you for your replies. The trinks I am talking about are for dodge and mastery trinks from H DS. 88 dodge times 10 and 3200 mastery. Fetzie, I have heard that with trikets procing you can cap CTC but I am not sure what that cap is. I am glad for the info about hit and expertiseat 7.5 %. That will make allocation a little easier.

Tengenstein
08-30-2012, 04:51 AM
The cap was 102.4% dodge+block+parry+Miss, however patch 5.0.4 but block on a two roll system so now you need either 102.4 % block, or 102.4 Doge+parry+Miss, Neither of which is possible in present gear, capping out isn't a concern in regards to either of those trinkets.

Airowird
08-30-2012, 08:53 AM
..., however patch 5.0.4 but block on a two roll system and added more level difference so now you need either 104.5 % Block, or 113.5% Dodge+Parry+Miss, neither of which is possible in present gear, capping out isn't a concern in regards to either of those trinkets.Fixt

javsaddiction
08-30-2012, 09:57 AM
So I've spent the last two nights getting used to the 5.0.4 changes to my prot paladin. For the most part, I'm enjoying the changes. The rotation has grown on me, SOTR matters, Word of Glory is phenomenal, Consecration is flipping awesome. From that standpoint, my Paladin feels stronger and more interesting than before.

I do have one concern though. I'm eating some huge damage spikes at the start of every boss fight. I'm not talking raid bosses either. Last night while in End Time, Murozond killed my pally in the first 5 seconds of the fight. Within the first few seconds of the Echo of Baine fight I was under 50%. Once I get "situated" and get a couple of SOTR in, damage seems to stabalize, but it almost feels like I should be hitting a damage reduction cooldown at the start of each fight just to get my buffs and debuffs in place. Anyone else notice this going on?

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/sentinels/Javsiam/advanced

Tengenstein
08-30-2012, 10:06 AM
Sounds like a damn good time for a glyphed Divine Protection.I don't think there's anything wrong with buying your healers and yourself time to wind up with an early minor CD.

sifuedition
08-30-2012, 10:35 AM
That's one of the things I've always liked about the old way Shield Block worked. Pop it at the start because:
A) Double Shield slam dmg
B) Damage reduction when the most mobs and least debuffs are up

Either answer is right =)

jere
08-30-2012, 08:19 PM
Pally still has a max 6 sec out of 9 on the uptime though, right? So 1/3 of the time, we are subject to dodge/parry rng and cds?

Uptime is 3 seconds, not 6. The only time we can really get full uptime is if you talent the cooldown ability that lets HP generators generate 3 HP for a short period (this is a really powerful cooldown if you think about the implications of full ShoR coverage).

sifuedition
08-31-2012, 07:02 AM
Yeah, I noticed this the last two nights on the dummies. Was setting up a power aura for it and realized how hard it was to catch the buff name. Re-read the tooltips and saw the 3 second duration. I may be mis-remembering but I thought it was 6 seconds when they first put this mechanic into beta and I hadn't heard the change after that. Of course, I also thought it was 30% (maybe that was base before mastery?). Mine currently shows 52% after reforging out of some parry and mastery for hit/exp caps.

I'm still not feeling good about damage reduction. I guess I picked up an extra cd since sacred shield doesn't seem to share a lockout with anything else but I still feel like I am just standing there getting hit most of the time. I'm practicing on the dummy to try to focus on uptime for the ShotR buff. I've also set up a WAKE UP DUMMY power aura for weakened blows. Note to self: find that sound bite to play when the aura activates :D

I guess Mists will be designed around us being this way but it feels a little lackluster that optimal play protects me 1/3 of the time (barring lucky AS procs). As far as "active mitigation" goes, it doesn't feel like I'm ever mitigating.

jere
08-31-2012, 03:05 PM
Yeah, ShoR is base 30% + increases from mastery (remember you also get some mastery by default, regardless of gear).

I think the thing to consider is that all this time paladins have strived for full combat table coverage (at least since BC when it was first possible for us). That's something that is hard to just forget, but I think the direction for tanking in general (not just paladins) is that your base defenses aside from ShoR (or class equivalents) is what you are balanced around for the average case and that you are expected to manage your active mitigation cooldown (ShoR in our case) to negate the trouble spots. The devs don't want us just blindly hitting ShoR every time it is up, but to play so that ShoR provides a buffer against the trouble spots (like impales on MoDW). There's a level of skill in knowing when exactly to hit ShoR on many fights. Hitting it every time it is up will cover the lower end of the spectrum, but trying to learn how to time ShoR to maximize it's damage reduction potential is where we should be looking instead.

So far my experiences have been pretty positive with my paladin. I don't feel any weaker than I was (actually I seem to take less damage than before, though that is just feeling...not hard numbers). I still need to practice against some bigger hitters. Timing ShoR is still taking some practice for me.

I like Sacred Shield and make a conscious effort to keep it up. I also like Unbreakable Spirit as it has helped me get in some extra Divine Protections in (I like to start fights with DP up).

sifuedition
08-31-2012, 03:58 PM
I like the previous lost but given what I know (which is somewhat limited) about the other tanks, it just seems that our active mitigation is both less active and less mitigation.

Also, I've noticed a reduction in threat already. If i am timing shotr, that's going to have some threat implications too.

I apologize if this is coming off sounding like I thinks we are in some kind of dire position, that's not what I am thinking. Just trying to identify what our weaknesses are so i know what skill is going to have to compensate for.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I717 using Tapatalk 2

Tengenstein
08-31-2012, 06:40 PM
I think all tanks are noticing the threat decrease, Vengeance does seem to take longer to stack now, neither me nor my co-tank could hold aggro on morchock on the pull, and the 5 amns with my guild generally seem to indicate that if DPS go balls to the wall on the pull they will get aggro.

I'm fine with that. Asshole DPS deserve to die.

jere
08-31-2012, 06:41 PM
Hmm...your threat should be ok right now (or are you talking about at 90?). My damage/threat have actually increased a lot. What rotation are you using?

As a point of clarification, I am not meaning that you should hold onto ShoR until a big hit comes only, but something more like:

Normal Damage Phase: Use ShoR when you have 4 HP each time (Just a suggestion. I like having an extra HP available if possible).
Big hit coming in 5 secs: Hold off on ShoR till right before the big hit. Build more HP in the meantime.

So you will still be using ShoR a lot, just try to keep an extra HP or two available incase you need to reduce a big hit coming in and work on knowing when to start timing your ShoR versus when to just hit it to help keep your normal damage down. A lot of people will just hit it every 3 HP and never think twice, but they will end up taking more damage when it matters.

That make sense?

Airowird
08-31-2012, 11:23 PM
I think Teng is talking about Prot Warriors, who do seem to be ... less OP than Prot Paladins atm.

Tengenstein
09-01-2012, 08:54 AM
Prot warriors, Bears DKs and Paladins . My threat on the pull feels a lot more shakey than it did pre-patch even though i'm now almost guanranteed to land my attacks.

jere
09-01-2012, 01:40 PM
I was talking to the guy above Teng's post. He posted about the same time as me.

Superworm
09-03-2012, 12:47 AM
I like the previous lost but given what I know (which is somewhat limited) about the other tanks, it just seems that our active mitigation is both less active and less mitigation.

Also, I've noticed a reduction in threat already. If i am timing shotr, that's going to have some threat implications too.

I apologize if this is coming off sounding like I thinks we are in some kind of dire position, that's not what I am thinking. Just trying to identify what our weaknesses are so i know what skill is going to have to compensate for.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I717 using Tapatalk 2

Maybe you should just invest more time in adjustment to the new style. I mean, in this patch tankadins get almost everything we wanted, like mobility, survivability, a movable consecration, etc., so why keep complaining?

I tanked heroic DS last night on my pally, with a bear co-tank, and actually I'm taking less damage than before. Guess that has something to do with the DS mechanism of ignoring block on many boss encounters. But still, the active mitigation style of play enables one to control the mitigation to deal with boss skills, which means that a good tank will have better performance while a face-roller will get kicked in the ass. The bear, who is not a bad player, still had a lot of problem surviving on Blackhorn, due to less practice of the new mechanism (I played through LFR before guild raiding, and got good training in the process.).

TL;DR: practice more before complaining, we are actually much stronger than before.

javsaddiction
09-04-2012, 04:10 AM
Spent a considerable amount of time tanking 5 mans, and ran a few LFR bosses. Our guild's 10 man is this Wednesday...

I think most of my concerns on early survivability have been put to rest. I started casting sacred shield on cooldown. I have to say my Pally tank feels so OP atm. During the Manaroth fight in Well of Eternity, The healer and all DPS died to that green stuff (Fel Firestorm) and I was left to fight Manaroth by myself. I must of tanked Manaroth and about 20 to 30 of those warlock pets with zero support for 3 minutes and I never dropped below 50%. Eventually the DPS and healer made their way back in and we got the kill...

Also, during the Morchock fight in LFR, my co-tank (Bear) kept dying to stomps. The last 10 % of the fight it was 3 DPS and I, no healers and we got the kill. Phenomenal.

Side note, I played my DK and Guradian tank this weekend as well. DK is pretty strong as well. He felt stronger than before the patch. The druid not as strong as the DK and Pally. Could just be a learning curve thing, but he was actually pretty boring to be honest. AOE threat was sort of an issue with the bear, and the savage defense mechanic didn't have the same feel that SOtR and Deathstrike have...

theodisius
09-04-2012, 10:12 AM
DK is pretty strong as well. He felt stronger than before the patch. Was that due to the change in vengenance or what, do you think? I am struggling to find anything substantial that's changed for blood DKs, although I only play my alt one infrequently. Every other tank has undergone an overall but blood dks seem pretty much the same.

Tengenstein
09-04-2012, 10:14 AM
Blizz have already said Blood DKs in the current iteration are requiring the least helaing of the live tanking classes, and that there is probably going to be a numbers tweak to bring them in line with pally

javsaddiction
09-05-2012, 04:03 AM
There's a couple of things I noticed on my dk last night while running another lfr...

1. More Deathstrikes & Bloodshields... Maybe it's due to taking Runic Corruption over blood tap, but I'm getting way more deathstrikes than I'm used to.
2. Blood buff to stamina - Raid buffed last night I was close to 260K health... Not sure how that works exactly but by my pally gets around 240k and he's better geared than the dk and has a crap-ton of epic stam gems, while the dk sports mostly mastery gems...
3. DPS on the DK is through the roof. Last night's LFR run I came in 3rd on the dps charts with 58k dps on madness (340K healthpool with the encounter buff as well).

Even with all that, I still enjoy my paladin more so than my dk. I like the utility the paladin brings to a group....

reikoshea
09-05-2012, 11:18 AM
I think we're in a good spot right now. Our threat feels a little funny, but I think pulling with AS and Glyph of Consecrate we'll be okay to stay ahead of mages and hunters on the pull.

As for survival, we've still got a plethora of cooldowns, which is pretty nice, on the pull start out with a wimpy Sacred Shield, and get SotR up as quickly as possible (DivPurp is good here, RNG might be nice to you). Keep sacred shield up at all times, with vengence it's actually pretty nice, and does it's own thing. You'll probably want holy avenger for a boss like Hagara (or any flayer) just to have extra long SotR streaks.

Try to time SotR with the SS's down time (it's difficult, but possible). Then it's just a matter of keeping threat from your bursty folks.

Parthos
09-09-2012, 11:08 PM
I have now tanked DS on my Pally with new patch and i have set hit and expertise to 7.5%. I used seal of insight and I didnt need as much healing as the DK and i never lost threat. I am loving the changes now I am acustomed to them.

Sharku
09-10-2012, 04:44 AM
I'm hard capping expertise on all my tanks (warrior, paladin & DK) along with hit, of course. Am I doing it wrong? Seems to me to be the only sensible thing to do to really maximise rage/HoPo? I just noticed the DK tooltip for DS - can't be parried. Seems overpowered to me?

Fetzie
09-10-2012, 07:41 AM
I'm using 7.5/7.5, this leaves leaves me with plenty of mastery to boost ShoR. I'm not bothering with balancing parry and dodge right now, doesn't really seem worth it with the gear reset in just over a fortnight, especially as I am not actively raiding anything until then anyway.

Tengenstein
09-10-2012, 07:51 AM
Yes and No, Unlike DKs Bears/Warriors/Pallies don't need hit or expertise at all to put up Savage Defense/Shield Block/Shield of the Righteous, we need them to accumulate our rescource so we can use those abilities, but we don't need for our defensive buffs to connect for them to function. DKs need DS to connect. as to resource generation you've got to think what is the resource DKs need to generate their defensive buff; FU pairs. And how do they generate FU pairs, Passively from haste or actively form RS via their level 75 talent which can be parried.

theodisius
09-10-2012, 11:40 AM
I'm hard capping expertise on all my tanks (warrior, paladin & DK) along with hit, of course. Am I doing it wrong? Seems to me to be the only sensible thing to do to really maximise rage/HoPo?

From what I understand from Tengenstein's work, mastery is a better stat for rage per second than hit or expertise. If so, the argument for capping hit/expertise is weaker for them than for palas. I guess capping may improve the reliability of rage generation, but intuitively, I can't see that trumping the defensive benefits of mastery.

EDIT: The above seems to be no longer true with the latest version of the Tengenstein's Excel file: taking the default values, shifting 100 rating from mastery to hit or exp does increase rage per second.

mellowmarshall
09-16-2012, 10:16 PM
The prevailing attitude here seems to be a solo attitude. Why? We play MMOs for group play, and group interactions should be important. I like the changes. They make play more active; there are new abilities from other classes that make things even more interesting, like druid's "2nd barkskin", usable on target instead of caster. With a one-minute barkskin cooldown, I exclusively save ironbark for tank damage spikes. Coordination is more important now, and that makes this game more exciting, like team sports. Assists are important.

sifuedition
09-17-2012, 07:22 AM
Yes and No, Unlike DKs Bears/Warriors/Pallies don't need hit or expertise at all to put up Savage Defense/Shield Block/Shield of the Righteous, we need them to accumulate our rescource so we can use those abilities, but we don't need for our defensive buffs to connect for them to function. DKs need DS to connect. as to resource generation you've got to think what is the resource DKs need to generate their defensive buff; FU pairs. And how do they generate FU pairs, Passively from haste or actively form RS via their level 75 talent which can be parried.

Did they undo the change so that DS heals even on a miss/dodge/parry? If not, then DKs seem to be in the exact same boat in a sense. The only difference is that runes regen regardless of miss/dodge/parry. The benefit of hit/exp to a DK is getting runic corruption, etc from that tier to proc more runes with rune strike. It still amounts to increased resource generation from hit/exp.

Tengenstein
09-17-2012, 07:37 AM
They don't get the heal off a Miss, They do get the heal on a Dodge, DS cannot be parried

theodisius
09-17-2012, 10:58 PM
That seems a pretty compelling argument for blood DKs prioritising hit cap, do you agree? Has anyone done the maths? (Where does one go for maths on blood DKs?)

With paladins, it seems up in the air, but a case can be made for getting 7.5% hit and expertise for more controllability of damage.

What I am getting from here and from incbear is that mastery and crit trump hit and expertise for warriors and bears respectively.