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kebess
08-06-2012, 07:58 AM
Hi, guys.

Here's little panic button analysis, extracted from my latest vid : Cooldown Classification and Management Analysis.

As always, do let me know if I missed something, or would like an in-depth view on any particular section.

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Below 45% life, LS provides more EH than SW

X = life %tage at which LS stops being better than SW as a panic button.

W = total EH amount with only SW (without Armour, or any other DR and life buff)

Z = total EH amount with only LS (without Armour, or any other DR and life buff)

== > W = Z , when life is at x%, since below x% LS provides more EH, and above x% SW provides more EH.
When life is at x% == > Y = W = Z.

EH = Life * [ 100 / (100-DR%tage)] (this is the general EH equation)

== > w = 100x / 60 = y

Since Last Stand gives 30% more life, but 0% DR

== > z = x + 30 = y

== == >> 100x / 60 = x + 30 == > 40x / 60 = 30 == > x = 30 * (60/40) = 45

== > X = 45%

And so below 45% life, and BEFORE its 30% current life increase is consumed, Last Stand is a better panic button than Shield Wall.

Furthermore, since 45% life is much higher than the life we’d have in a ''panicking moment'', we can conclude than in most cases, a life increasing ability or a damage absorption ability (which would be similar to the first), is a better panic button than a damage reduction ability.

Here is a simple equation to calculate X => the life %tage at which a given ''life increasing'' ability (or damage absorption ability) stops being a better panic button than a given DR ability.

X = [ (100/a) - 1 ] * b

a = DR ability's %tage. a > 0.

b = healing (or absorption) amount of the healing ability, expressed in %tage of max HP

For example Rallying Cry (20% HP) stops being a better panic button than Shield Wall (40% DR), at X = ((100/40)-1)*20 = 30% HP.

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Some even more in depth on the LS, SW thing

In the above calculation, I didn't take into account external heal you might be getting from healers in a panicking moment, because here we can't truly count on them to save our life. We can't even be sure we will receive any healing at all during that panicking moment, and not a fraction of a second too late.

Remember a panic button is defined as a life saving ability you simply hit, whenever your life suddenly drop unexpectedly and very dangerously, and you don’t have more than a few seconds to react before the next potential killing blow.
And so the ''panicking moment'' is the time in between the moment your life suddenly drops and the time the potential killing blow hits.

Now, if your healer could heal you during that panicking moment, at least a little bit, because he is very good and can anticipate these sort of things, or is mostly spam healing you, or for whatever other reason;
we could determine whether his healing is enough to bring you above X (45% life) before the potential killing blow, and thus make SW a better panic button than LS, or even remove the need of a panic button all together.

Let's calculate this
(every heal here is expressed in %tage of your max HP)

∆H = average amount of external heal you get in a given time ∆T = to healer's average HPS, solely on you, expressed in ''%tage of max HP / sec''.
∆T = amount of time taken to receive a given amount of heal ∆H.

t = boss attack speed in seconds (can be =/= from boss swing time, if he casts damaging spells between swings and/or has a DoT)
h = average amount of external heal you get in between 2 boss attacks.

The longer t is, the more revealing and scientific will be the final result, because the longer time you'll have to actually receive any heal from your healer. The longer time your healer will have to react and cast a heal.
And so, the shorter ∆T, the more revealing and scientific will be the final result. e.g. fast ticking HoTs are very good here.

During a panicking moment :

=== >> ∆H/∆T = h/t => h = t*(∆H/∆T)

l = life %tage at the panicking moment, right after your HP suddenly drops.
x = life %tage at which a given life increasing ability stops being a better panic button than a given DR ability.

When, x - l = h , LS = SW as a panic button == > x - l = t*(∆H/∆T)
When, x - l < h , LS is a better panic button than SW
When, x - l > h , SW is a better panic button than LS

== > x - l = t*(∆H/∆T) == > [(100/a) - 1]*b = t*(∆H/∆T) + l == > ∆H = {[((100/a) - 1)*b] - l } * (∆T/t)

== >> ∆H' = {[((100/a) - 1)*b] - l } / t

This expression of ∆H represents the amount of HPS (or here, %tage of max HP / sec) your healer needs to do on you, to make a given life increasing CD = to a given DR CD, as a panic button.
If, healer's actual HPS < ∆H' , then the life increasing ability remains a better panic button.

A simple example to illustrate things :

If you have 450K max HP, and boss has a 2 sec attack speed, and you're comparing LS to SW when you drop to 10% HP , your healer will have to do :

∆H' ={[((100/40) - 1)*30] - 10 } * (1/2) = 17.5 % of your max HP as heal every sec, or 78.75K HPS during the whole panicking moment, to make SW a better option. Anything under that makes LS the better choice.

This means that each time SW becomes a better choice when compared to LS, the need of using a panic button simply ''disappears'', since you'd already be above 45% life, and no longer in critical danger.

Travelsize
08-12-2012, 12:18 PM
Oh look, someone put into math the reason why I always go to last stand + enraged regen at low health instead of SW.

If you're at low heath, 40% reduction on a hit for double your remaining health will still kill you. SW has never been a great panic button, it's a great pre-panic button. When the boss is charging up its super magic damage attack you can't avoid, that's when you SW.

Also why PW:S is the lifesaver that it is, while Pain Suppression is never used that way.

kebess
08-12-2012, 06:04 PM

I'm a bit confused though, because it seems you do agree with me, but at the same time you're actually bashing me as if I did something wrong.
Still, glad we agree on the way Panic buttons work.

PS :
Perhaps you don't like maths that much, : )

Tengenstein
08-13-2012, 03:43 AM
Probably becuase any prot warrior who can understand the maths doesn't need maths to tell them that LS is a better panic button and SW is a better proactive defensive option, and any that can't understand why won't be able to grasp the maths anyway.

kebess
08-13-2012, 06:50 AM
Hehe, I guess you're right.
I still did enjoy looking deeper into it though, and the maths can always help analyze a more appealing topic at a later time.

Travelsize
08-20-2012, 10:25 PM
Actually, even though I like maths quite a bit, I literally meant that I hadn't actually bothered to think about this particular flavor of mechanic.

At some point I just stopped using shield wall as a panic button because it never helped (also way back when, the cooldown was huge). I didn't even really use LS often until I macroed it to enraged regen.

I do apologize though, that sounded way more snarky than it should have.

Edd13Mac
08-21-2012, 12:43 AM
On my Warrior I've macro'd LS and ER together, (and labeled it LaSER ;D ) is this worth doing or should they be used separately? I figured that ER would be more effective if I increase my total HP with Last Stand before using it. Not certain on this now that I think of it.

EDIT:
I just tested this by letting mobs in hyjal take me down to 50% and then using LaSER and just ER.
LaSER Healed for: 105789
ER only Healed for: 87133

So it does increase the Heal, by a bit under 20k for me. Is it worth stacking them or more beneficial to use them independently is now my question.

Tengenstein
08-21-2012, 12:55 AM
Thats an old prot warrior trick. Usually its beneficial to stack them, though it depends entirely on how much or ER is over heal and wether LS actually stops you from dying.

Airowird
08-21-2012, 04:34 AM
The thing is though, (the current) ER itself is not really a useful tanking CD, it takes too long to heal you for frankly not enough health to be considered a useful CD button in a group with a healer. But it does help out LS, because at that point you're low on HP and you KNOW that you're gonna get a couple of ticks out of ES atleast, which with 30% extra HP are not that terribly bad anymore.

The MoP version is a slightly better one, but I find that the other 2 talents trump it in extra benefits.

Aggathon
08-21-2012, 05:21 AM
I always kept er er not macro'd to ls incase i needed to use it as a last resort button or as a more proactive cooldown if I knew the healers needed it. But yes I do typically use them together. And for the record I don't even have shield wall keybound because it is too important of a cooldown to risk fat fingering. Last stand is my go to "oh shit" button.

kopcap
08-21-2012, 06:17 AM
Not saying that you can't use ER with LS, but macroing them is a waste. LS alone gives enough room for a competent healer to bring you back to norm. If it does not - someone screwed up somewhere.

There are some generic situations where ER is usually very good. Namely,

- when you are forced to range your healer, ie picking up adds
- when healer is incapacitated or throwing a hymn/brez
- to offset strong periodic damage
- to give room for heals to focus someone else for a short period

Again, this is all pretty basic. And its naturally a preventive mechanic, just like SW.

kebess
08-21-2012, 08:42 AM
In most cases, it's better to simply have them on 2 separate binds.
If you really need them both at once, it won't take you more than a tiny fraction of a second to hit the ER right after the LS, right ? So unless you're being a bit lazy, there's no real need or benefit to macro them together.

Airowird
08-21-2012, 08:45 AM
I never use ER in combat, so I don't have it keybound. And as I prefer not mouse clicking all over the screen, I just macro it to LS as I will ALWAYS want to use ER when LS is active, considering I either already took a nifty amount of damage or am about to. Either way, them heals are goooooood....

kebess
08-21-2012, 08:54 AM
I never use ER in combat, so I don't have it keybound. And as I prefer not mouse clicking all over the screen, I just macro it to LS as I will ALWAYS want to use ER when LS is active, considering I either already took a nifty amount of damage or am about to. Either way, them heals are goooooood....

What happens then if your life dangerously drops again after, lets say 10-15 sec after you use LS ? Then you get killed by an excess of damage of 10% of your life ? If ER was up then, you could have used it right before the killing blow and survive it.
And your ER would still be benefiting from the LS buff, since you used it 10-15 sec later, and it lasts for 20 sec.

It's sure situational, but you can't ignore those situations. Not having them on separate binds is always worse than ONLY having them macro'd together.

Airowird
08-21-2012, 09:10 AM
So you are talking about a situation where I use LS and ER, get healed to full, lose both buffs and within 10s after that, get killed.
Well either I need better healers or I just had a case of melted brain and did a booboo.

Not to mention that ER only heals me for 6% of my HP between swings, which is worth about a single heal, so yet again, either my healers are slacking or I am simply doing something wrong outside of handling my CDs.

kebess
08-21-2012, 09:14 AM
So you are talking about a situation where I use LS and ER, get healed to full, lose both buffs and within 10s after that, get killed.

No I'm not, ; ) read what I wrote again.

kebess
08-21-2012, 09:15 AM
Not to mention that ER only heals me for 6% of my HP between swings, which is worth about a single heal, so yet again, either my healers are slacking or I am simply doing something wrong outside of handling my CDs.

?? ER instantly heals for 10% HP, then an extra 10% over 5 sec. How is that 6% ?

Aggathon
08-21-2012, 09:19 AM
?? ER instantly heals for 10% HP, then an extra 10% over 5 sec. How is that 6% ?

2 ticks between swings, 3% per tick, 6% total.

Aggathon
08-21-2012, 09:20 AM

2 ticks between swings, 3% per tick, 6% total.

Well... to clarify, in MoP it's different, and frankly is a better cooldown, what we were talking about is current usage. Honestly with it being over such a shorter duration and being so HP based, it seems best to use the MoP version with last stand always.

kebess
08-21-2012, 09:22 AM

2 ticks between swings, 3% per tick, 6% total.

C'mon guys, ; ) we are talking about MoP here, I thought that bit was clear enough. In 1 WEEK Cataclysm is gone...

kebess
08-21-2012, 09:36 AM
You are also forgetting that you can't always activate your ER with LS, since you need to be either enrage or have 60 Rage to spend. And you sure also can't decide to keep Bers. Rage only for ER uses.

So what's the point to macro them together, if it's not even reliable half of the time ?

Aggathon
08-21-2012, 11:40 AM
does berzerker rage no longer work? or whatever that button I had macro'd in to ensure I was always enraged for enraged regen.

Airowird
08-21-2012, 12:01 PM
?? ER instantly heals for 10% HP, then an extra 10% over 5 sec. How is that 6% ?Meh, was thinking current ER (3% per second), but the point remains that currently in a raiding environment, 20% of your HP is nothing as a CD and even as an emergency button, the MoP version only really works in 5mans, and if you need LS, SW AND ER as separate CDs in an heroic, either someone is undergeared or doing something wrong.

Also, if you use LS, thus heal for (let's say) 30% of your 130% health pool, and add another 20% of that to it, you're at 50% of your current HP, or at 65/130% of your normal HP. Now either 2 options in your scenario are possible:

Scenario 1:
In those 20 seconds I was never actually healed to full. At that point, my ER macro already worked or I would've actually been at -30% HP of my current max (that's 39% of my normal HP below 0), nothing I can do as emergency button in the 5 seconds preceding that (bar not standing in fire or SW for the Big Bad Breath he just did)

Scenario 2:
Within a timeframe of 20s, I heal myself for 50% of my current max HP and my healers heal so much, they do 70% of that (or 91% of my normal HP) so my ER is completely wasted at this point. Let's assume this took the healers roughly 10 seconds. Now within the next 5-10 seconds after that, the boss is doing so much damage that the healers fail to manage to keep my 130% filled HP bar full. Assuming; the HPS is coming in steady, the boss swings each 2 seconds and isn't doing a Big Bad Breath? Tthat means that to bring me down to just 10% under 0, the boss' regular DPS needs to do either 175.5% of my normal HP in 5s, or 221% of my HP in 10s. * In the 5s scenario, that means he needs to do 70.2% of my regular HP each swing. While ER can potentially heal 12% of your HP in 2s (10% instant + 2% per tick), that's not even 3/4rd of what a block would do. Not to mention that outside of LS a full ER is worth a full 0.57s. Woop-ti-doo.
* In the 10s scenario, he does 44.2% of my normal HP each swing. While that 12% peak of healing would come close to a regular block, it steal means that in a regular situation, 4 swings back to back (a regular occurence especially for a starting tank) will kill me, heals included. ER can add a swing to that, but only once and ONLY if you can predict when you are going to get that streak. As we're talking Panic Button, that is out of the question.

Conclusion:
If you're so dangerously low on health that you need to pop LS, ER usually helps. If it doesn't, it won't really matter later on.
Also, if you save ER for later, you lose out a 30% buff, but if you want to use ER during LS, you're guaranteed of it's most use right as you pop LS as panic button

Takethecake
08-21-2012, 02:56 PM
Seems like a huge mix of people referencing ER pre mist and post mist. Pre mist I never macroed them together because it was easy enough to click them both if I actually wanted them both at the same time.

From a purely post 5.0 standpoint their is no reason to macro them together. I guess if the macro worked even if ER was on cooldown it wouldn't be a huge deal (which I think it should if ER is off the GCD)... but with a 1 minute cooldown you would want to be very actively using ER if you choose to take the talent. Plus LS lasts 20s so you have a 15s window for maximizing the heal that seems to be the situation so many people are focused on. Worst case scenario I would consider putting in a modifier macro to use ER when I click last stand with shift held or something along those lines.

Depending on the fight I think second wind will end up being a fair substitute either way (especially fights that could proc the free rage).

kebess
08-21-2012, 03:49 PM
Seems like a huge mix of people referencing ER pre mist and post mist. Pre mist I never macroed them together because it was easy enough to click them both if I actually wanted them both at the same time.

From a purely post 5.0 standpoint their is no reason to macro them together. I guess if the macro worked even if ER was on cooldown it wouldn't be a huge deal (which I think it should if ER is off the GCD)... but with a 1 minute cooldown you would want to be very actively using ER if you choose to take the talent. Plus LS lasts 20s so you have a 15s window for maximizing the heal that seems to be the situation so many people are focused on. Worst case scenario I would consider putting in a modifier macro to use ER when I click last stand with shift held or something along those lines.

Agreeing with this.

Again there's just no point in macroing them together. If you want them on the same key, no problem, add in a modifier. Problem solved.

Macroing them together only gives you less options in the way you can use them. Would anyone be silly enough to macro Shield Wall and Demoralizing Shout together ? Well macroing LS and ER is just as pointless and unproductive.
If you guys still wanna do it for some reason, you're free to do so, but you won't find any solid argument to back it up.