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sifuedition
06-04-2012, 02:07 PM
Looking for any information about how tank balance is in MoP Beta so far. I have all four and love my pally. The initial numbers look made it sound like pally was going to be noticably weaker than the others. Just looking for anyone who can give first hand opinions on it who has played more than one.

Leucifer
06-04-2012, 02:14 PM
The initial numbers look made it sound like pally was going to be noticably weaker than the others.

.....For the first time in a long time. It's past due.

Edit: Yes. In all fairness, that's a less than constructive statement. I'll admit, I'm curious as between the classes, in Cata, they were homogenized to a degree. A fair example.... warrior, rend + thunderclap = DK diseases = druid bleeds on targets = consecrate + hor. Many of the talents mirrored this effort.

I'm curious as to how the new talent system will be employed as it concerns tank balance. will certain tanks once again shine as single target / MT roles? Will some be stronger for magic heavy encounters? I mean, Blizzard has been torn between balancing and homogenizing tanks.... which while a little boring, keeps the clases viable for many/all encounters..... versus playing to strengths and weakness of a class, and risking alienating a group of players. Which direction do they seem to be going?

Fetzie
06-04-2012, 02:27 PM
.....For the first time in a long time. It's past due.

As if there wasn't all that stuff in DS that ignored our main mitigation mechanic...

sifuedition
06-04-2012, 02:42 PM
I guess I just don't understand all the pally hate and never have. I've never felt like warriors were ever that far behind. I never liked that dks sucked for a large part of Wrath even though they were far and away the best at the beginning of it. I love the balance the tanks seem to have right now. As long as the gap from1 to 4 is not big, I don't care who is 1 and who is 4.

And I hope they don't go with "specialization". I hate the idea that "you, you're class x tank, you have adds" or vice versa. Just like spine, sometimes the more skilled tank needs a certain role on a specific fight, and I would hate to not be able to do that because I'm class "x".

The initial thoughts I was hearing boiled down to:

DKs - looking strong with both heals and shields, well equiped for most any fight and interesting to play

Bears - well, no real heals but sd plus having always been kind of a "soaking" tank, they are ok but still a little boring like they have always been

Warriors - losing some of the spammy fun-ness and taking away a chunk of the toolbox due to rage management but working

Pally - Just not possible to keep the mechanics at a high enough up time and not effective enough even when buff/ability x is up

Sound fair? Any of that fixed yet?

Leucifer
06-04-2012, 02:50 PM
As if there wasn't all that stuff in DS that ignored our main mitigation mechanic...

Which was that? Shield block? If that's the case... then DK's and warriors were sitting in the same boat as warriors have a shield and DK's blood shield was only useful against physical attacks. Bears were/are just something else.

Hell, I still am laughing over the glyph that gave pally the aoe stun vs elementals and dragonkin. Could understand how that was a nod to the basic nature of a pally for Wrath, but then to pull that..... come on Blizzard.... stop sucking up to pallies.

Tielyn
06-04-2012, 02:53 PM
Bear/Pally here.

Bear plays fairly close to live, but the main differences are you're generating Rage for different reasons (instead of for attack, now you're using it for defensive power -- a faceroller tank will be stuffed because they'll never have the rage to keep their SD up, so they're at 12% dodge the entire time) and some of your tools went missing (no more AoE taunt, no more Lacerate to 3, then Pulverize) and you are way more squishy at the onset. Expect Ulduar-level spiky stam-stacking bear tanks again. :|

Paladins are a struggle with initial threatgen in my experience. You don't get to use ShotR or WoG until you get to 3 Holy Power, and there's no way to hold any holy power without chain pulling. There are a lot of points where bad timing leaves you with all of your attacks on cooldown, and burst DPSers are going to give you a headache. I feel like I'm missing a lot of the Save versus Death tools that druids have, too, but I don't seem to need them as much either. I felt like I was fighting constantly to get 3xHoly Power just so I could keep threat off of the DPS.

-Tielyn

Leucifer
06-04-2012, 02:56 PM
I guess I just don't understand all the pally hate and never have. I've never felt like warriors were ever that far behind. I never liked that dks sucked for a large part of Wrath even though they were far and away the best at the beginning of it. I love the balance the tanks seem to have right now. As long as the gap from1 to 4 is not big, I don't care who is 1 and who is 4.

The origins of pally hate were from playing DK/warrior (or bear) and having the raid go, "No.... pally is best/optimal. They're going to be the tank." When you have players of the same skill level, and one class has an edge.... well, there you have it. That's where I found myself in Wrath anyway.



And I hope they don't go with "specialization". I hate the idea that "you, you're class x tank, you have adds" or vice versa. Just like spine, sometimes the more skilled tank needs a certain role on a specific fight, and I would hate to not be able to do that because I'm class "x".

Yeah. That kinda sucked. DK did shine on a few fights in Wrath, but otherwise, we trailed the pack. Like I said, there's an upside/downside to both. I'm curious to see where it goes.



The initial thoughts I was hearing boiled down to:

DKs - looking strong with both heals and shields, well equiped for most any fight and interesting to play

Bears - well, no real heals but sd plus having always been kind of a "soaking" tank, they are ok but still a little boring like they have always been

Warriors - losing some of the spammy fun-ness and taking away a chunk of the toolbox due to rage management but working

Pally - Just not possible to keep the mechanics at a high enough up time and not effective enough even when buff/ability x is up

Sound fair? Any of that fixed yet?

Interested to know. Definitely.

Fetzie
06-04-2012, 02:57 PM
It seems the focus for threat gen has been moved away from ShoR. AS and J are both doing quite a bit more damage than ShoR for me.

And btw, that HW stun glyph is still in the game in MoP :)

Leucifer
06-04-2012, 02:58 PM
Paladins are a struggle with initial threatgen in my experience. You don't get to use ShotR or WoG until you get to 3 Holy Power, and there's no way to hold any holy power without chain pulling. There are a lot of points where bad timing leaves you with all of your attacks on cooldown, and burst DPSers are going to give you a headache. I feel like I'm missing a lot of the Save versus Death tools that druids have, too, but I don't seem to need them as much either. I felt like I was fighting constantly to get 3xHoly Power just so I could keep threat off of the DPS.

-Tielyn

Sounds a bit like a DK in a way.

Tielyn
06-04-2012, 04:20 PM
One other thought I neglected to add earlier. The thing that bears and pallies have in common is a 'Pick One or The Other to Cash Your Resource In' stunt now.

Bears have: Savage Defense (+45% dodge for 6 seconds) OR Frenzied Regen (a big whopper heal that is based on your Vengance - mine heals for 82K). Both of them take you out of being able to do so again for a number of seconds, as they both cost 55 Rage, and you will be constantly working to refill your rage bar -- you get no rage from being hit, only from hitting the boss, plus a bonus from hitting with Mangle (+5 Rage , +7 if talented), plus 15 for every melee or Mangle crit, and Mangle is on a 6 second cooldown that gets magically refreshed some percentage of the time if you have stacks of Lacerate and a Thrash debuff on the target. (12% per, for a max of 48%, by the way).

On Live, bears have Savage Defense on an auto proc based on crit, and Frenzied Regen is a long cooldown.

Pallies have: Shield of the Righteous OR Word of Glory as their 3HP cash ability - one is a damage ability that also gives you an absorb for a few seconds, and the other is a heal that only gets powerful after multiple ShotRs in a row (each ShotR adds a stack that increases WoG heals, but as soon as you cash your WoG, the stack gets reset to 0). The 'stronger' heal of the two if you don't have any stacks is probably Holy Light, which has its crit chance increased if you took the Sacred Shield talent (though I just checked the calculator, it looks like they just changed that to WoG instead of Holy Light... so this part may be out of date from Sunday before last when I was pally tanking...or the calculator is out of date. Will try and verify tonight.)


You only get Holy Power when you hit HotR, Crusader Strike (4.5 second cooldown), or Judgement (6 second cooldown) with the occasional lucky Avengers Shield proc. Inquisition is no longer available to pallies. The level 75 talents each give you some form of free HP generation, but either at the cost of a long cooldown ability or only having a 15% proc chance. This makes your rampup time to do anything at least 9 seconds, which is a very long time when the DPS is in there spamming AoE abilities....

Oh, and one more thing -- you only have one, one target, 8 second taunt now (Hand of Reckoning). The three-mob, target friendly taunt is gone. So is the AoE bear one. So if your DPS gets overzealous, you can only save one of them from themselves every eight seconds.

-Tielyn

Fetzie
06-04-2012, 04:22 PM
ShoR now reduces physical damage taken by 30% for 3 seconds, mastery is supposed to increase the damage reduction, the bonus to WoG and your block chance

Leucifer
06-04-2012, 04:36 PM
The first part of the quote was interesting Tielyn. I mean, what you describe shows another level of "homogenization" in a sense. Really sounds like similar (not identical) abilities that are used in similar (not identical) forms of mechanics. Choice A or B... with similar effects.... and both drawing on a not insignificant amount of resources. It's interesting in that it's like having two different flavors of chocolate or vanilla ice cream. They're both, at heart, to be used for similar functions, but go about it in slightly different ways.


Oh, and one more thing -- you only have one, one target, 8 second taunt now (Hand of Reckoning). The three-mob, target friendly taunt is gone. So is the AoE bear one. So if your DPS gets overzealous, you can only save one of them from themselves every eight seconds.

-Tielyn

So, did they remove the AoE warrior taunt then also? Just curious. Bear and Warrior had similar abilities. This kind of puts those classes on the same footing with DK's for AoE taunts and single target taunts. I'll admit, I like it as it forces the dps to have to pay closer attention to what they're doing.... but on the downside, you "know" the tank will still get blamed.

Tengenstein
06-04-2012, 06:00 PM
Warriors still have their 3min AoE taunt in the from form of Mocking Banner, the only limitation on it means we can't ahve it up at the same time as other banners, putting it up will replace the previous banner.


Also what this about us losing our toolbox? we've lost a fair whack of mobility, and we've lost the multi taunt aspect of vigilance but out tool box has grown, we no longer need to stance dance fore shattering throw, or hamstring, or execute, Yes we've lsot colossus smash and rend, but we've gained Raid wall, and raid crit buff, and deadly calm, and a barkskin clone RC and LS no longer share a CD, we have the option of a knock back, and we can choose between fixed amount damage absorbs and %based block models.

Prot warriors will need a few more keybindings come MoP

Pally hate comes from "lololol i nearly died lay on hands woop back to full health, lololol i did die auto ardent defender proc, back to 30% health, oh and i has better effective health you ragemosnters on and lololol i has a 1 button macro for my rotation and lolol we're wiping, better DI someone so i don't have to pay for repairs, and isn't my hair is fabulous BTW" and most warriors where grumpy from the carpal tunnel syndrome they got from having to press HS so bloody much.

boogi
06-04-2012, 08:38 PM
Warriors still have their 3min AoE taunt in the from form of Mocking Banner

Mocking banner is not a taunt, it's a 6 second focus same as Challenging Shout has always been. Warriors have NEVER had a an AoE taunt.

Tengenstein
06-05-2012, 03:59 AM
Mocking banner is not a taunt, it's a 6 second focus same as Challenging Shout has always been. Warriors have NEVER had a an AoE taunt.

My point was we still have Challenging shout, just by another name.

sifuedition
06-05-2012, 12:33 PM
Also what this about us losing our toolbox? we've lost a fair whack of mobility, and we've lost the multi taunt aspect of vigilance but out tool box has grown, we no longer need to stance dance fore shattering throw, or hamstring, or execute, Yes we've lsot colossus smash and rend, but we've gained Raid wall, and raid crit buff, and deadly calm, and a barkskin clone RC and LS no longer share a CD, we have the option of a knock back, and we can choose between fixed amount damage absorbs and %based block models.

Prot warriors will need a few more keybindings come MoP

Pally hate comes from "lololol i nearly died lay on hands woop back to full health, lololol i did die auto ardent defender proc, back to 30% health, oh and i has better effective health you ragemosnters on and lololol i has a 1 button macro for my rotation and lolol we're wiping, better DI someone so i don't have to pay for repairs, and isn't my hair is fabulous BTW" and most warriors where grumpy from the carpal tunnel syndrome they got from having to press HS so bloody much.

I haven't played my beta warrior (damn D3) but the first feedback I heard was that prot warriors couldn't hit half the stuff they were used to due to rage, idk. That may have only been true initially or just poor feedback. It's kinda why I was asking.


Pally hate comes from "lololol i nearly died lay on hands woop back to full health, lololol i did die auto ardent defender proc, back to 30% health, oh and i has better effective health you ragemosnters on and lololol i has a 1 button macro for my rotation and lolol we're wiping, better DI someone so i don't have to pay for repairs, and isn't my hair is fabulous BTW" and most warriors where grumpy from the carpal tunnel syndrome they got from having to press HS so bloody much.

See. I don't see this as accurate. Sure, those abilities were present and usable. The truth of it is, though, I used LoH to save someone else 99% of the time. Which comes back to a different kind of utility than warriors. My pally watched raid frames like a hawk to HoP, HoS, LoH, etc people. My warrior didn't watch raid frames so much. He was a pick-up / stun monster which was awesome on LK. I did hate it when I saw someone going down on my warrior and couldn't do anything about it, but I also hated it on my pally if I couldn't get to adds, w/e in time. Generally, I'm saying I heard a lot of that type of pally hate but never felt it was really accurate to what actually usually happened in raids.


ShoR now reduces physical damage taken by 30% for 3 seconds, mastery is supposed to increase the damage reduction, the bonus to WoG and your block chance

Whoa. This is the kind of "fix" I was talking about but this seems like too much. I mean, it balances the warrior ctc with shield block but this seems too strong. I guess if they are designing around this being present, then it should be balanced, but...

My biggest concern is that they decided that SB on cd in TBC was bad design because just hitting it on cd was not compelling or truly interactive. It just becomes upkeep hassle. Now, instead of truly Active Mitigation, we are going back to SB on cd.

Tengenstein
06-05-2012, 06:17 PM
On beta feedback:Almost every prot warrior ability has no rage cost. SS, dev, Rev, TC, SW, Spell reflect, all of the talent abilities, the only things that you really will use regularly that have a rage cost are shield block, Shield barrier, HS and Cleave, and mostly you only use HS/Cleave when you have an ultimatum proc to make it free. I'm finding i don't always have the rage to hit SB on CD.

On pally hate: i saw alot of gormok insta gibs warrior, paladin lives, or Paladin CBA to move form Icehowls charge, oh well, and paladin doesn't need to be taunted off after soulreaper, whilst all the while being piss poor at keeping holy shield up. and in ICC paladins had almost as many stuns as a warriors with HoJ and HW. I saw alot of mediocre players faceroll content as a paladin were warriors had to work a fair whack harder to achieve the same results.

On Active mitigation: I don't really understand how pallies is meant to work, HP seems to come somewhat slowely, we're still sing about 9secodns for 3HP so only looking at a 33% uptime on Bastion, seems kind really spikey. As for warriors, SB was on a cd in wrath, its on a CD in Cata, and its still on CD in MoP. it doesn't feel any different to how it feels on live, the only difference is that you're now hitting you buttons and hoping they come off CD faster so you have enough rage to press it again when it comes off CD. I think the real mark of a good warrior tank is knowing when to dump with Sbar instead of SB, Sbar with full venagence is looking to be about a 100k absorb shield if you put 60 rage into it @90, that about 20-25% of your health, thats a pretty serious dent in some of the HC bosses special attacks. the SB mechanic is boring as hell and can probably be macroed into SS, Rev, And dev and you'll do just fine, timing it weel and knowing when to put Sbar up instead could be seriously overpowered.

Fetzie
06-05-2012, 06:24 PM
On pally hate: i saw alot of gormok insta gibs warrior, paladin lives,
wrath mechs.

or Paladin CBA to move form Icehowls charge
wrath mechs

, oh well, and paladin doesn't need to be taunted off after soulreaper,
wrath mechs

whilst all the while being piss poor at keeping holy shield up.
holy shield was only worth keeping up to keep the 969 rotation going. It didn't actually do anything for your survivability.

and in ICC paladins had almost as many stuns as a warriors with HoJ and HW
sounds like fairness to me.

The only really strategy changing thing that a paladin can do in Cataclysm is AD staghelm's Scorpion Slash.


It actually works out at about 3 Holy Power every 6.5 seconds.

Tengenstein
06-05-2012, 06:59 PM
Yeah most of the pally hate comes from Wrath, now its mainly becuase you share all our loots, and have better hair, such fabulous hair.

You're gonna need to update your guide Fetzie, I have no idea how you manage to build HP that quickly. Even with 3HP every six seconds i still see it as as being 50% awesome mastery boosted damage reduction followed by 50% of squish which seems really spikey to my unenlightened warrior mind, and then you have the wog buff too, is that jsut icing on the cake or are you regularly meant to use it?

Fetzie
06-05-2012, 07:12 PM
Don't forget that you can buffer 2 extra holy power, so if you know you won't be hit for a few seconds (think blackhorn when he is casting his shockwave) you can save the holy power, and then use ShoR back-to-back to get 6 seconds of 50+% reduction. As for WoG, that comes down to encounter design. We are only just seeing the first 5 man heroic instances for mechanics testing, raiding should become available within the next 6 weeks so we will know more then, as more people get in to the instances when they open up level 90 premades.

As for holy power generation, it goes something like this:

0.0 J +1
1.5 HotR +1
3.0 AS
4.5 HW
6.0 CS+ShoR +1 -3
7.5 J +1
9.0 cons
10.5 CS +1
12.0 HW
13.5 J+ShoR +1 -3
15.0 CS +1
16.5 AS
18.0 cons
19.5 CS +1
21.0 J+ShoR +1 -3

Assuming no GC procs making it faster, or any Divine Purpose procs should you take that talent.

Takethecake
06-06-2012, 08:15 AM
My pally hate started in tier 6 of BC with the ridiculous threat paladins could do to unlimited size packs of adds by just standing there. It got worse in wrath with AD when every horrible tank in the game rerolled paladin because it took almost no skill to put out the same or better tanking output as a paladin (macro'd rotation listed on the forums and AD letting paladins ignore death).

Don't get me wrong, good paladin tanks are great and my last 4-5 tanking partners in raiding have been paladins, but seeing so many horrible paladins tanks being able to skate by in BC and wrath really brought on my paladin hate. It's much better in cata though, now it's just a residual paladin hate =P

On the subject of 2 survival options to choose from talked about awhile back, that seems to be the theme for most tanks. I haven't really looked at brewmaster tanking yet, but warriors are in the same boat as paladins and druids with the "pick which of these two short resource based cooldowns you want to use".

Tengenstein
06-06-2012, 08:31 AM
Brew masters have several abilities to reduce damage, Guard costs 2 chi, is ~200%AP absorb shield and increases self healing by 30%, Blackout Kick provides a buff called Shuffle which increases parry chance by 30% and increases the amount of melee damage you stagger by 20%, thirdly you have purifying brew, which costs 1 chi and instantly removes your stagger dot.

Fetzie
06-06-2012, 08:42 AM
My pally hate started in tier 6 of BC with the ridiculous threat paladins could do to unlimited size packs of adds by just standing there.

Yeah, Paladins were awesome at tanking trash...and then a boss came along and the warrior got to tank it :(

sifuedition
06-06-2012, 09:16 AM
I never met a paladin (or any other for that matter) tank that used a rotation macro and was worth a damn. I hear frequently the complaint from wrath that the 969 could be macro'd but every pally I met who did that sucked. They could stand still ok but they usually lacked awareness, positioning, etc. They also were screwed when anything disrupted their flow and it was very noticable.

Can do it /= Does it well

Leucifer
06-06-2012, 09:22 AM
Yeah, Paladins were awesome at tanking trash...and then a boss came along and the warrior got to tank it :(

For Burning Crusade..... yeah. That is true. Since then though, pally has pretty much been the premiere tank.

Tielyn
06-06-2012, 01:05 PM
Running another 5 man last night on my level 86 paladin, I pretty much had to hit ShotR every time I had 3 HP in order to stay ahead of the DPS sometimes, rather than 'time it' like the intent is supposed to be to keep the bonus shield absorber up. I had the new instance blue 1 hander equipped, a bunch of level 85s with me, and yet I was still fighting for aggro on multimobs on the Sha of Doubt fight where everyone ran in different directions for the first few seconds. I only had one taunt, and it was reserved for the healer's add. Everything was on cooldown that I could hit, and it's hella frustrating because the attacks hit for much, much, less damage than my bear attacks. Maybe I'm still getting the hang of it, but lots of grey buttons make me a sad pan--er..paladin.

Meanwhile....
I took a look at the new warrior stuff briefly last night. It's kinda weird looking - Shield Block, 60 rage, blocks_all_ incoming attacks for 6 seconds, can be used twice in 15 seconds, versus Raise Shield's 20 min rage, up to 60 rage worth of absorb physical attacks based on your AP (so it's bigger when you have Vengance running). So your choices are Big Block OR Small Block, but Small is not tied to a 60 minimum Rage entry point.

Also, Battle Stance gives you more rage when you hit things, and Berserker Stance gives you rage when you get hit or do damage. Defensive Stance adds 15% to your stam, and does the usual threat thang and makes you uncrittable.

I can see the utility in switching stances when you aren't the active tank, starting off in Berserker stance to gain initial threat if you trust your healers to be on the ball, and also, you have the Banners at 87 to do AoE taunts, which Bears and Pallies definitely lost completely.

(Admittedly, Bears get Symbiosis which lets us hijack other people's abilities -- for Warrior it's Spell Reflect, for DKs Bone Shield and for Pallies Conscecrate, traded for Enrage, Might of Ursoc (+15% max health, min 15% health), and Barkskin respectively) and Paladins get an AoE knockdown.

So, to sum up, totally non-seriously:
Pallie's new mechanic: Holy Power generation race while playing with threat issues.
Bear's new mechanic: Damn, not enough rage to use defensive abilities... must hit boss faster in order to stay alive while being cursed at by healers.
Warrior's new mechanic: Stance dance like mad, throw banners, and lots of shields!
Monk: Here! Have a statue! Have a beer! And now the Shuffle! Also, I drop healing globes!

I can't speak for DK's -- I've never played one. :)


-Tielyn

PS. Edited to add: One other thing. Pandaren can be warriors or monks, with the double stat bonuses from cooking buffs (100 extra of a stat in the new expansion) -- check out which tank classes cannot be Pandas -- Druids, Paladins, and DKs. Think we're seeing more love for Warriors and Monks this expansion for tanking?

Leucifer
06-06-2012, 01:35 PM
Running another 5 man last night on my level 86 paladin, I pretty much had to hit ShotR every time I had 3 HP in order to stay ahead of the DPS sometimes, rather than 'time it' like the intent is supposed to be to keep the bonus shield absorber up.

This..... sounds a LOT like a DK deathstrike type of thing. I have to ask though, how does this bonus shield play in to the pally's normal "block"? Don't get me wrong, I'm not trolling you, I'm just honestly wondering as I haven't dipped my toes into MoP yet. I mean... if you have your "normal block" PLUS this added shield absorb.... that sounds like a LOT of damage mitigation. Maybe it's a thing where, pally will be very heavy-duty on survivability.... but struggle with threat..... whereas a DK not have threat issues vice lower survivability? I would expect some kind of trade-off. I mean, I know pally's are used to having awesome survivability and being near mindless in threat management...... (ok... that is me trolling and poking a stick at ya.... lol).

But in all seriousness.... I'd hope that there would be some sort of balancing act, a trade off between survivability and threat. Or something. How do you keep the classes competitive with each other as tanks, but keep them varied and interesting? I mean.... hell, for a while there in Wrath... I was one of maybe two or three DK tanks on my faction on my server. I think I was viewed as a masochist by some because DK tanking just was inferior to pally (by a long shot) and warrior. Bears were regarded as "cute but ineffective" (not my words, someone else). That changed, but for a while.... if you didn't roll as a pally tank... you were viewed as some sort of retard in need of dire psychiatric help.


I had the new instance blue drop, a bunch of level 85s with me, and I'm still fighting for aggro on multimobs on the Sha of Doubt fight where everyone ran in different directions for the first few seconds, I only had one taunt, and it was reserved for the healer's add. Everything was on cooldown that I could hit, and it's hella frustrating because the attacks hit for much, much, less damage than my bear attacks.

See.... in this situation... I could argue that you have "bad dps". Let's see.... tank struggling with aggro on mobs... we get spread out due to a "fear"...
um yeah. Chances are, as a dps, my best action would be to move TO the tank, let them grab aggro off of me on that mob, THEN break away and start dps again. Just a guess.

See, to some degree though, I like that. Make dps have to be ware of things and have to know some strategy and actions beyond, "Must mash out my rotashun!!!!!". I know.... I'm a heretic..... I'll burn in hell for such beliefs, but really.... SO MANY OF US complain about the lack of depth in WoW when it's things like THAT which are contributing factors to that problem.



So, to sum up, totally non-seriously:
Pallie's new mechanic: Holy Power generation race while playing with threat issues.
Bear's new mechanic: Damn, not enough rage to use defensive abilities... must hit boss faster in order to stay alive while being cursed at by healers.
Warrior's new mechanic: Stance dance like mad, throw banners, and lots of shields!
Monk: Here! Have a statue! Have a beer! And now the Shuffle! Also, I drop healing globes!

I can't speak for DK's -- I've never played one. :)


-Tielyn

Sounds like Blizzard is trying to implement the "more active" tanking style across the classes..... but is struggling to find a good balance point. Either that or, it's just that alien of a concept to some of the players in those classes that change, as usual, is creating stress and unhappiness.

Edit:
I should add..... I have two pally's myself. Enjoy them both. There have been times though where I've really looked at both though, and thought, "Why the hell am I tanking with my warrior or DK when this is available to me???" For all the talk about raiders going the extra mile to not gimp themselves, to make use of every advantage possible in order to "win"..... there have been times when I look at the tank classes and realize I could probably gain an edge by playing pally. Yes. I am completely of the belief that skill trumps all other factors.... but all things the same, if you're equally proficient with all 4, soon to be 5, tank classes..... why not run the one that has the most advantages?

sifuedition
06-06-2012, 01:43 PM
It seems to me to be a problem that was identified earlier in this thread. Blizz had an aha moment with DKs:

"I really like the way the dk is right now. Almost by accident, we gave them the survivability we have been trying for since mid-wotlk but they have to do their rotation right to see it"
"What if we could do that for all the classes?"
"That would be awesome. Tanks would press buttons to do their job instead of to be a crappy dps for threat"
"Let's do it"
DK is there, so tweak for "fun" play and the new numbers in MoP
Making a new class, so design based on this model
"Oh crap."
"What?"
"Well, what the hell do we do about these shield tanks?"
"Can't let them just block cap or it's not 'active'"
"Exactly. So....what about shield block on cd?"
"Well, I guess they have to push a button for it and if we don't make it a 'shield' ability, they will all say we are just homogenizing"
"Guess that's all we can do without a complete re-design and everyone claiming we just copied DK/Monk abilities over"

I suspect that is the summation of several months of meetings at Blizz lately.

Tengenstein
06-06-2012, 01:47 PM
TBH seeing how Sbar sometimes is better than SB i really like how the warrior plays

Leucifer
06-06-2012, 02:06 PM
It seems to me to be a problem that was identified earlier in this thread. Blizz had an aha moment with DKs:

"I really like the way the dk is right now. Almost by accident, we gave them the survivability we have been trying for since mid-wotlk but they have to do their rotation right to see it"
"What if we could do that for all the classes?"
"That would be awesome. Tanks would press buttons to do their job instead of to be a crappy dps for threat"
"Let's do it"
DK is there, so tweak for "fun" play and the new numbers in MoP
Making a new class, so design based on this model
"Oh crap."
"What?"
"Well, what the hell do we do about these shield tanks?"
"Can't let them just block cap or it's not 'active'"
"Exactly. So....what about shield block on cd?"
"Well, I guess they have to push a button for it and if we don't make it a 'shield' ability, they will all say we are just homogenizing"
"Guess that's all we can do without a complete re-design and everyone claiming we just copied DK/Monk abilities over"

I suspect that is the summation of several months of meetings at Blizz lately.

I have a funny feeling you're very close to the truth........

Tengenstein
06-06-2012, 06:34 PM
Meanwhile....
I took a look at the new warrior stuff briefly last night. It's kinda weird looking - Shield Block, 60 rage, blocks_all_ incoming attacks for 6 seconds, can be used twice in 15 seconds, versus Raise Shield's 20 min rage, up to 60 rage worth of absorb physical attacks based on your AP (so it's bigger when you have Vengance running). So your choices are Big Block OR Small Block, but Small is not tied to a 60 minimum Rage entry point.


The choices is a percentage based melee damage reduction or a fixed amount any type of damage mitigation. big block small block is completely skewed way of looking at it, shield block for example, against Zon'ozz who hits like a truck, 75k melee hits, a 30-60% damage reduction is huge, but you take the same damage reduction against say 15k melee hits from trash mobs and it tiny. the added complication is that Sbar works against all forms of damage, so against a boss like Vizier Ertan, or Foe Reaper 500 who don't actually melee Sbar end us being the exclusive rage dump. Madness would really make life fun, against the mutated corruption you;d want to keep SB up, except when it casts impale, the regenerative bloods would have a threshold where you would switch from SB to Sbar oprobably at a certain number of stacks of degenerative bite, you;d use the HS to dump on the parasites and the wing/arms tentacles unless the Blistering tentacle debuff was hurting in which case you should switch to Sbar, and for the Last platform with the shrapnel and terrors you;d use Sbar exclusively. they're different forms of mitigation for different scenarios, big block or small block is really not an apt definition.




Also, Battle Stance gives you more rage when you hit things, and Berserker Stance gives you rage when you get hit or do damage. Defensive Stance adds 15% to your stam, and does the usual threat thang and makes you uncrittable.

I can see the utility in switching stances when you aren't the active tank, starting off in Berserker stance to gain initial threat if you trust your healers to be on the ball, and also, you have the Banners at 87 to do AoE taunts, which Bears and Pallies definitely lost completely.

(

Def is 15% damage reduction, not stam increase. Zerker doesn't help with threat, it helps with rage gen, and for the most part 99.99%% of your rage will be spent defensively, not gaining threat, and we have sufficient tolls to get a SB up the moment after we land our initial shield slam. I really don't get why you would go zerker whilst tanking something. I just don't see how a little extra rage is worth the increases in the damage taken and the threat loss.

Gregasaurous
06-07-2012, 02:44 AM
I have a funny feeling you're very close to the truth........

Dude, he's a Blizzard Employee under cover. There's no way he guessed all of that correctly to the letter.

Tielyn
06-07-2012, 11:06 PM
Current on this week's beta build:

My level 87 paladin: 31.96% block, block stops 31% of incoming damage.
Shield of the Righteous: stops 51% of incoming physical damage (but this is based off of Mastery) on top of your other mitigation for 3 seconds, also adding a multiplier on your WoG. Also, the DPS ran in three different directions like chickens with their heads cut off because the adds hit so hard -- the mage and hunter were trying to kite instead of coming to the tank, despite being told multiple times "Stack on the X."

And yeah, I admit it. :) I didn't actually -play- the warrior -- I just looked at the tooltips and went, "hmmmm...." without going through all of the motions of gemming and configuring buttons. I had about 15 minutes before I went to bed and I was curious. :)

It's just odd to have Zerker stance 'give you rage whenever you get hit' -- because back in Live, if your tank is doing their job, a Fury warrior would never get hit for the rage from that, so it stands to logic that the tank would be the only one to dance into that -- I remember back during BC you had to stance dance to get at the fear break for Nightbane, for example.

Druids do not get rage from being smacked around. They did fix it so Frenzied Regen now can be triggered for smaller heals at less than 60 Rage, so I guess it's an improvement.

You do not have a choice on how much rage Shield Barrier or Frenzied Regen use - it uses up to 60 if you have it, and whatever you have if you don't, for lesser effect. The ideal thing is to -have- the 60 rage to spend, but at least if you don't have it, you still have a stopgap button to press now.

-T.

Tengenstein
06-08-2012, 06:07 AM
Warrior stances on live are not related to warrior stances in Mop, the only link is that warriors tank defensive stance. we don't have the stance limited move sets anymore. Def stance has our Crit reduction baked in so in a pinch any spec of warrior can go def stance and tank the boss for a bit until the tan gets a Brez. the only reason a warrior tank would enter a DPS stance would be the same reasons a Guardian Druid would enter humanoid or cat from, utility or DPS, never for threat.

The DPS stances are gonna allow skilled warriors a slight edge, they are pretty much just a choice in how we generate resources. we no longer rest our rage above a threshold when changing stances, this means that a smart arms/fury warrior will usually stay in Battle stance, and then switch to zerker if a pulse of raid damage is about to hit, or if he can't get in melee range you still might go into def stance if the tank dies or if you really want that 15% damage reduction. but either way you pay for it with decreased rage generation, so as a DPS def stance will be a dps loss. It may be possible that zerker stance would allow you to forgo hit/expertise caps as a miss streak is not going to decimate your rage gen in zerker stance, if there's a raid wide damage, which might open up some intresting itemization choices, or allow good warriors with poor luck with drops to work around it. Bad warriors who can't get out the fire will prolly benefit from being in zerkerstance, if they can dump their rage before their die.

I disagree the ideal amount of rage to spend on our variable rage costs dumps is 60rage, for warriors at least. As far as i can tell Sbar doesn't stack, so not only do i not want to clip duration by much, but any absorb value unused is removed the next time I put it up. this means that i only want to put as big a Sbar up to cover me until i need to put the next Sbar up. Against caster bosses I'll put an Sbar up as soon as i can (it'll either usually be a 50rage one if going off the pull) and from that point put Sbar up just as the previous one fades. Weather this means putting a 50rage one up every 5 seconds or 20 rage one every 2 seconds doesn't make a differece beyond me having to press the button more often.

Frenzied Regen and Shield Barrier are very different tools and are going to give warriors and Druids a very different feeling for healers, almost akin to the diference between Powerword: Shield and Heal.

Tielyn
06-08-2012, 12:48 PM
I'm not disagreeing with you; I think we're seeing the mechanic two different ways on how to utilize it.

I think the problem behind the variable rage mechanic is that it works a lot like combo points, only more granularly so. Spending less than 60 rage gives you a lesser effect, but also cashes in all of your current rage, where building up that rage is a very scarce commodity now.

In Live, you can depend on having a full rage bar at all times whenever the boss is on you, but in MoP the burden lies solely on you to actively generate your own rage via successful hits and the occasonal Shout/Enrage. The first round retooling of Frenzied Regen set both it and Savage Defense to be a concrete 60/55 minimum Rage, and the latest revision puts it more in line mechanicswise with Shield Barrier where the more rage you have, the more effective it is. For warriors, I can definitely see the argument of lowballing Shield Barrier to keep a low level one going at all times, roughly akin to the Paladin's Sacred Shield talent.

On the other paw, for bears, cashing in early has a sharply smaller benefit (5K heal at 5 rage versus 40K+ at 60) and resets our rage meter to zero. Might as well wait for an extra swing/Mangle/Lacerate and just get the whole benefit, since at 60 you then have the choice of saying "Hrm, I want Savage Defense instead." So I see it more as a 'crud, almost dead, no cooldowns, magic damage incoming' maneuver. But therein lies the difference between bears and warriors, as you astutely pointed out with the PW:S/Heal comparison.

Overall, it does seem like there's a sense of 'we're shrinking the pool of choices, then adding a unique flavor to each while keeping some stuff similar to another class so you don't have to completely relearn everything.'

A good acid test is whether I can solo the same giant packs of mobs on my druid the same way I've been doing on my paladin the past couple of nights. Judicious use of Flash Heal of all things right after a kill is worth 51K heals, which when combined with the occasional supercharged WoG has been more than enough to keep me up.

Eventually I'll kit out the warrior and try again on the same mobs. :) But this weekend is slated to play with the new 87 dungeons. Also, the beta level cap is now 90.

-Tielyn

Leucifer
06-08-2012, 01:21 PM
It's just odd to have Zerker stance 'give you rage whenever you get hit' -- because back in Live, if your tank is doing their job, a Fury warrior would never get hit for the rage from that, so it stands to logic that the tank would be the only one to dance into that -- I remember back during BC you had to stance dance to get at the fear break for Nightbane, for example.

-T.

Yeah, that is odd. I mean, a warrior running dps ... really shouldn't be taking hits period. Maybe AoE and such.

I get what Teng is saying, that a more skilled warrior will be able to make use of it and squeeze a performance gain from using different stances in various ways. I also get where Tielyn is going with his line of thinking. The basic philosophy is that dps should not be taking unnecessary damage, and this kind of flies in the face of that. It's counterintuitive in a way.

In general, I've always thought the sensible way to handle rage generation would be:
Battle - mix of rage gen from attacking and being attacked, 50/50
Zerker - rage gen from attacking, 80/20
Defensive - rage gen primarily from being attacked, 20/80

To me, that seems like the way it "should" work. Then again, this would probably leave the various warrior specs with a much easier rage management situation.

Tengenstein
06-08-2012, 07:37 PM
That's pretty much how it does work in cata, the problem is that prot warriors are nearly always flooded with resources and any time there is significant raid wide damage DPS warriors suddenly have crap tonnes of resources too, and this leads to warriors occasionally making use of an "Environmental Lifetap". Additionally every time the nerf content (prot) warriors suddenly have to deal with a decrease in resources, same goes for us leveling up, when we go back to old content suddenly we sucketh hardcore because our rage is built around damage taken as a percentage of our health-pool

Zerker stance in Mop gives you rage when you take damage, that is not the same as getting hit. its quite possible, and highly probably that you will take some sort of damage in a raid without ever eating a melee swing as a DPS, whether this is sharing stomp damage, bouncing ping pong balls, eating lava beams, taking ice lances, general raid with arcs of shadow crap, catching twilight blasts so your ship doesn't blow up, unavoidable blood explosions or that raid wide damage aura thing deathwing does. Blizzard have realised fights where theres not some sort of raid wide damage going on are kinda really boring to heal. Especially if its a one tank fight. I suppose think of it like this, UH DKs have a talent that essentially let them generate Runic power if they absorb damage with AMS, PVE zerkerstance is essentially that but for warriors, excpet it's not AMS, its our face.

But we're thinking from a purely PVE stand point. In PVP Zerkerstance allows us some resource generation whilst being kited or stunned. Monks, Druids and rogues energy regens regardless of being in melee range or not, same for DK's runes and hunter's Focus every other non mana class regens resources whilst being kited or CCed. if a warrior can't get in melee range for whatever reason he's really screwed since 90% of his resource gen is from being in melee range. Its kinda the current problem hunters have in Cata, if you can get and stay in there dead zone they can't SS and so are kinda in bad way resource wise once they finally get you at range, except focus has some passive regen; Rage doesn't. Zerker stance lets us do that. being good at warrior PVP will mean being good at stance dancing, just like a good hunter won't stick in a single aspect of the entire fight, but will shift as the fight calls for it, a decent warrior will too.

The more I play on the beta, the more i'm thinking warriors are in a good place right now, its a very different place to what we're used too, and i really don't miss the old system at all.

Mnemonic
06-09-2012, 06:50 AM
Its my understanding that in mop its more of the...fight or flight mechanic. As in you decide if you want to build threat or reduce damage. It becomes more about balance or being active and hopefully gone are are the days where people "think" they can tank by face rolling.

Tielyn
06-13-2012, 02:06 PM
In PVP Zerkerstance allows us some resource generation whilst being kited or stunned. Monks, Druids and rogues energy regens regardless of being in melee range or not, same for DK's runes and hunter's Focus every other non mana class regens resources whilst being kited or CCed. if a warrior can't get in melee range for whatever reason he's really screwed since 90% of his resource gen is from being in melee range. Its kinda the current problem hunters have in Cata, if you can get and stay in there dead zone they can't SS and so are kinda in bad way resource wise once they finally get you at range, except focus has some passive regen; Rage doesn't. Zerker stance lets us do that. being good at warrior PVP will mean being good at stance dancing, just like a good hunter won't stick in a single aspect of the entire fight, but will shift as the fight calls for it, a decent warrior will too.

The more I play on the beta, the more i'm thinking warriors are in a good place right now, its a very different place to what we're used too, and i really don't miss the old system at all.

....aw hell, I didn't even think about PvP. Yeah. Bears are completely hosed as a PvP spec versus kiters come MoP, because if you get kited, you're stuck at the lower dodge with no rage and no Frenzied Regen/SD available....

...or wait. Let's see. Bearhug, which is a grab and hold, apply damage, but you can't move either -- you can probably be CC'd out of it too. Ursol's Vortex. Mass Entanglement ... affects up to 5 people. Also, the highest passive magic damage resist.

I see what you did there, Blizz.

I rarely PvP, but when I do, it's in bear form, mostly because I'm used to being able to manage incoming damage and dish out more than I get, even with the Vengance nerf in PvP....

Mnemonic:
I'm not sure we -can- be fight or flight mode as tanks unless they change the way threat works. We -have- to be on the boss in most cases, even more so come MoP if it's the only way for us to generate defensive resource power (paladins have one quasi-ranged HP generator in Judgement, but Crusader Strike/HotR is melee only.

Oh, and then the melee DPS complains because we're moving the boss so much.

Seems that more like we have to be more of a three phase cycle:
1) At the front of the cycle, we have no resources and the boss hits us really hard while we generate defensive resources, with the side effect of generating initial threat.
2) Once we have the resources, cash the first couple of cycles to help the healers catch up before you die. This is the new part -- in Live, warriors and druids are happy campers with their full rage bar and can commence gimpy DPS smackdown while watching mechanics.
3a) When the boss mechanic requires you to run out of melee range, assess your resource pool and consider kiting longer in order for the healers to top you off (and maybe drop that DoT -- some classes specifically have a DoT removal/mitigation mechanic) before the boss can catch up, while the DPS is nibbling away at your threat bank.
--or--
3b) Run back in with or without resources. Go back to 1.

It's going to be definitely different. The mechanics of tanking 5 mans feels to me like 75% resource management, 10% boss mechanics, 15% threat mechanics in MoP, compared to 30% threat mechanics, 65% boss mechanics, 5% rotation mechanics (because I've got my rotation in my head) like it is in Live. YMMV. And I am sad that I really am liking the feel of pally tanking mechanics way more than bear tanking, plus having to fight for gear with all the new monks....(and we thought it was bad having to be the only class to have four people on our tier token, and all three others being among the most popular class choices -- mage/rogue/DK...)

-Tielyn

Edited PS: It suddenly occurs to me that of the five bosses in the starter dungeons in Pandaria, roughly half of them (first boss of Jade Temple, first and last boss of the Brewery) actually stand in place most of the time and do not chase you, and the only chasing you do is add management. Four of them (first boss of Jade Temple, and all three bosses of Stormstout Brewery) actually have a 'move or be an inconvenience to your healers' mechanic), plus the 'one of you is a shadow leper' mechanic of the last boss of the Jade Temple... you may have something there after all, Mnemonic.

Tengenstein
06-13-2012, 03:44 PM
I don't Mnemonic was actually inferring kiting, he was talking about balancing between threat and damage reduction, however as threat is so easy now, i can fart in the room and the mobs stick to me like glue, I don't really see the choice; I;m never not going to choose threat as long as i having something hitting me. for the same reason I'm not too worried about resource management whilst kiting. If i'm kiting a mob the general reason to do so is to not get hit by him. If i'm not getting hit, i shouldn't be taking damage, or at least significantly less than if the boss is twatting me up the front, so my resources are best left not spent so i have them to use once I get back into melee range.

This is no different to how Blood DKs work at present. They can't DS at range and they seem fine, they have Bone shield to help them get through the first few seconds of the fight, and its not like warrior/druid won't also have 1 minute damage reduction CDs. hell as a warrior its possible to have 50 rage before you even press your first shield slam, and if you abuse Avatar and zerker rage your first SS generates another 40.

wolfv
07-03-2012, 07:08 PM
I have not gotten a chance to play MoP beta yet, but everything I have seen ready or heard really points to druids getting a dead 4th spec in bear. its kinda pointless when you spend over 50% of your time trying to be a worse verse of someone else. I see even if I do spend the time and effort to be a "good bear tank" people will want to kick me and be unaccepting of me because of people just simply have a base mitigation of what 15% last i heard with no chance to block cap, no armor bonus over any other tank class, and no inherent stamina bonus. now if i win one of these beta keys i will try it and give my 2 cents. but from everything i can see they are basically killing bear to allow for only one tank that wears agility leather.

Fetzie
07-03-2012, 07:12 PM
I have not gotten a chance to play MoP beta yet, but everything I have seen ready or heard really points to druids getting a dead 4th spec in bear. its kinda pointless when you spend over 50% of your time trying to be a worse verse of someone else. I see even if I do spend the time and effort to be a "good bear tank" people will want to kick me and be unaccepting of me because of people just simply have a base mitigation of what 15% last i heard with no chance to block cap, no armor bonus over any other tank class, and no inherent stamina bonus. now if i win one of these beta keys i will try it and give my 2 cents. but from everything i can see they are basically killing bear to allow for only one tank that wears agility leather.

From what I've tried out in beta, bear is in a pretty good place right now. Might have changed in the last few weeks, but it seemed fine to me when I tried it out.

Tengenstein
07-03-2012, 08:00 PM
That's pretty whingey. Bears are fine and pretty fun. Bear form grants 330% increased armour and a 25% magic damage reduction, and 20% more stamina which basically means a level 86 bear in greens has about 5k (approx. 10%) more armour a level 90 warrior in blues and the occasional epic, Excluding the bonus armour from mastery druids get. Bears just get better physical damage reductions from there gear than the other 5 tanking specs and the 3 plate tanks get screwed on stance based passive magic damage reductions. The stamina bonus is a bit out of whack since for the most part gear of the same ilvl has the same stam amounts Monks, Pallies, and warriors get 15%, DKs get ~18%, Druids get 20% and locks get 0% extra (though they have there funky voidlord soullink shit).

so yeah bears have:

most stam
most armour
most baseline damage mitigations

the world is not falling down for bears.

wolfv
07-04-2012, 09:35 AM
Bear form grants 330% increased armour and a 25% magic damage reduction, and 20% more stamina which basically means a level 86 bear in greens has about 5k (approx. 10%) more armour a level 90 warrior in blues and the occasional epic, Excluding the bonus armour from mastery druids get. Bears just get better physical damage reductions from there gear than the other 5 tanking specs and the 3 plate tanks get screwed on stance based passive magic damage reductions. The stamina bonus is a bit out of whack since for the most part gear of the same ilvl has the same stam amounts Monks, Pallies, and warriors get 15%, DKs get ~18%, Druids get 20% and locks get 0% extra (though they have there funky voidlord soullink shit).
ok thank you, I had heard nothing about them switching druids back to where they were before as stam packing machines. as I said I have not had access yet and i was getting nervous from no one explaining how they are making up for that large a mitigation gap, I mean as it stands in Cata bears only have 3 mitigation (stam, armor, and dodge) and to basically take one and throw it out the window seemed unfun. the question I would enjoy having answered is without using any of the defensive rage abilities how bad a tank are you?



so yeah bears have:

most stam
most armour
most baseline damage mitigations

the world is not falling down for bears.
that is good to hear as i said, and i still do not think this is a good place for bears to be mostly because well, if half your defense does not exist when your not using it that does not sound as fun as your making out to be.

Fetzie
07-04-2012, 09:40 AM
that is good to hear as i said, and i still do not think this is a good place for bears to be mostly because well, if half your defense does not exist when your not using it that does not sound as fun as your making out to be.

It is pretty much how all tanks are being designed for MoP.

Tengenstein
07-04-2012, 10:19 AM
I mean as it stands in Cata bears only have 3 mitigation (stam, armor, and dodge) and to basically take one and throw it out the window seemed unfun.

In cata bears still like mastery, expertise, hit and crit so you get those SD procs. Nobody actually stacks armour, its just too expensive in the ilvls (and if you do you're gearing wrong). Hit an expertise are going to be needed again (not just nice to have, but invaluable for rage gen) Crit and to a lesser extent Haste will provide further rage gen, Mastery and dodge provide passive defences,


The question I would enjoy having answered is without using any of the defensive rage abilities how bad a tank are you?

Bad. Healers will hate you. Imagine being a rogue or kitty and not dumping combo points. Yeah that bad.



that is good to hear as i said, and i still do not think this is a good place for bears to be mostly because well, if half your defense does not exist when your not using it that does not sound as fun as your making out to be.

well i find it alot more fun than just spamming maul, and not really caring about rotation as it doesn't really matter as aggro is so easy to hold on to. Rage matters. rotation matters. Most stats matter.

Tielyn
07-06-2012, 02:43 PM
I've been a bear since BC. I've been playing on the beta since it stabilized, and reporting back week over week findings/perceptions, and playing a pally tank as a comparison to boot. Bears are not dead - just the opposite. They're going to be harder to play right -- but then again, all the tanks are getting a reboot in a sense of you're going to have to manage some sort of active defense rotation on top of your threat rotation.

If you're a one button spamming tank (back in Wrath you could get away with Swipespam once they made it a 360 degree AoE), you're going to have a big problem with tanking on _any_ tank type come MoP. If you pay attention to your rotation, tooltips, and stay current with the trends, you'll be fine.

It's not about the stam, or the armor, (in fact, the 25% passive magic resist is a giant upgrade), but the main reason I'd be considering switching out of having my bear main tank is because I'm not looking forward to fighting with all of my guild's new monks to get gear upgrades. Same as how the warriors and pallies probably felt when they had to fight with DKs for upgrades back in Wrath. Paritywise, I suppose it's only fair since there are 3 cloth classes (mage/warlock/priest), 3 plate classes (warrior/pally/DK) and only two leather (rogue/druid) and two mail (hunter/shaman) classes. (Next expansion: Mail tank!)

You'll be relearning how your class works if you stay with bear druid tanks; lot of different stuff. But the other tanks got the same deal -- mechanics changes and overall squishyness increases. Stick with what you love, says I, unless everyone around you is a monk.

-Tielyn

Ltranger
07-06-2012, 04:01 PM
I've read a lot about bear tanks, but I haven't really seen much about warrior tanks...is there anything special with them? I heard devastate costs no rage, same with a few other abilities, but were getting a new defensive CD called shield barrier....anyone mind giving me a run down on warriors and pallies? Just want to have an idea on what I get to look forward to when i get out of training.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

Tengenstein
07-06-2012, 07:29 PM
Fetz will have to do you a pallie one, I can't get on with it to give oyu a proper run down, I'll do warrior changes:



ALL abilities are available in All stances.
Vengeance only stacks in def stance
Devastate is free, it has a 30% chance to proc Sword and Board finishing the CD of Shield Slam and increasing the rage it generates by 5
Shield slam Generates 15 rage in def stance, 30% chance to proc Ultimatum, which reduced the cost of the next Heroic strike or cleave by 100%
Revenge Generates 10 rage in def stance, has a 1.5s CD, only prcs from Dodges & Parries, Hits up to 3 targets
SHield Block has a 15 seconds CD, 6 second duration, costs 60 rage, and you have 2 charges of it. Primary rage dump
Stances chage how we
Defensive stance generates 1 rage every 3 seconds in combat and is a 15% damage reduction
Damage taken No longer generates rage
Whiteswings no longer generate rage in def stance
Shield Barrier, costs 20+ rage, absorbs 83%AP of damage, will consume up to 60Rage for 249%AP absorb secondary rage dump
Enrage no longer increases damage done, instead it increase the rage generated from SS and Rev by 50, pocs only from critical blocks
Thunderclap, cost no rage in def stance the dehaste debuff has been removed from the game, this now applies weakened blows debuff(renamed version of the demoshout debuff on live)
Demoralizing shout is now a 1min CD, reduces done done to you by affected mobs by 20% for 10 seconds
Rend is gone
TC and Devastate now apply a rolling dot on hit, Deep wounds, ticks hard.
Last stand no longer shares a CD with Rallying cry, no longer do you lose the bonus health after it wears off
Recklessness no longer increases damage taken
Challenging shout is gone
Banners: think totems, can only have one done at a time, each has a 3 min CD
Skull banner: increase crit dmage by 20% for 10s, for all raid memebers within 30yards
Demoralizing banner: Decreases damage dealt by all enemies by 10% for 10 seconds withing 30 yards
Mocking banner: taunts everything in 30 yards every 3 seconds for 6 seconds last 30 seconds
intercept is gone
charge has a baseline CD of 20sec, talents affect this.


What this means is that as a tank you are never gonna leave def stance. Basic priority is SS>Rev>Dev, not becuase this is necessarily the highest threat rotation but because it will produce the most Rage, which you will use to keep shield block up as much as possible, with shield barrier being used if you have too much rage to burn with just shield block, or if boss is a caster. You are not likely to ever use HS or Cleave whilst tanking outside of ultimatum procs. the basice rotation is arguably easier but we actually have a resource to manage now.

Ltranger
07-06-2012, 08:36 PM
Thanks! Should be fun.....

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

Dreadski
07-06-2012, 11:11 PM
Thanks! Should be fun.....

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

Just wait until you tank something.

Dwarfisshort
07-23-2012, 05:50 PM
Bear/Pally here.

Bear plays fairly close to live, but the main differences are you're generating Rage for different reasons (instead of for attack, now you're using it for defensive power -- a faceroller tank will be stuffed because they'll never have the rage to keep their SD up, so they're at 12% dodge the entire time) and some of your tools went missing (no more AoE taunt, no more Lacerate to 3, then Pulverize) and you are way more squishy at the onset. Expect Ulduar-level spiky stam-stacking bear tanks again. :|

Paladins are a struggle with initial threatgen in my experience. You don't get to use ShotR or WoG until you get to 3 Holy Power, and there's no way to hold any holy power without chain pulling. There are a lot of points where bad timing leaves you with all of your attacks on cooldown, and burst DPSers are going to give you a headache. I feel like I'm missing a lot of the Save versus Death tools that druids have, too, but I don't seem to need them as much either. I felt like I was fighting constantly to get 3xHoly Power just so I could keep threat off of the DPS.

-Tielyn


I pally tank now, and found that threatgen in MOp was quite easy. I also found that s is still quite easy for pally tanks to mass pull multiple mobs at 1 time, as long as they use their abilities when doing so.

Arothand
07-27-2012, 10:31 AM
I'm debating between my Pally and my Warrior, but trying to find information is a hassle because the paladins all say that pallys are the worst tanks, and the Warriors all say that Warriors are the worst tanks, so I'm hopping between the both of them in the Beta to see for myself.

The main thing I dislike, and have always disliked, about the Warrior is there is way too many buttons/abilities. I'm counting around 30 abilities that are used regularly, which IMO is outright ridiculous. The fact that 90% of them are all cooldowns or situational makes playing the Warrior feel like playing a game of whack-a-mole.

The Paladin feels worlds simpler, both in rotation and in abilities used, but the Warrior feels like they actually have more cooldowns that could be useful: Warriors get Shield Block, Shield Barrier, Demo Shout (minor cooldown now), plus Shield Wall and Last Stand as the major CDs. Pallys lost a bit of their cooldowns with DP going to magic reduction unglyphed, since they no longer have a minor cooldown or a regular way to mitigate magic damage (I'm pretty sure DP is still 1m cooldown), but I believe to compensate they get more physical DR from SotR.

Can't speak to DKs, Bears, or Monks but a few Beta patches ago some people in a top 10 guild I was talking to said that Monks were (obviously) OP, then Bears, DKs were alright, but Warriors and Pallys were towards the bottom with Pally being better. Take that as you will though since as I said above everyone seems to think their class is in the "worst" position now.

Tengenstein
07-27-2012, 12:41 PM
dunno where this warriors are the worst tanks bullcrap is coming from. IF youre just a FOTM player get a pandaren whatever since their racials will be OP at the start. Warriors have about the same number of abilities as they have now though their actual rotation has been simplified in regards to the cata version. If you think its too many buttons don't play it.

Itrytotank
08-04-2012, 12:25 PM
Since the beta/PTR has been out for a while and it appears there have been no major tank changes for a while, how do you folks that are in beta/PTR feel the tank balance is working out?

I have yet to decide which of the tank classes I plan to raid as, but I have to choose paladin, warrior, druid or DK. I lean towards my warrior just because I love warriors, but I have cleared 6/8 HM as a druid tank. My issue is my co-tank is going heals and swaping with a druid and 2x druid tanks doesn't feel like as good as a combo of druid/dk, druid/paladin, druid/warrior.

Any thoughts on how you feel each are fleshing out is appreciated. Not a FOTM type (yes figured I would share that so Teng doesn't blast me with that :)