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Tielyn
04-07-2012, 01:38 PM
Heya folks.

I managed to land myself an OP monk healer, so we ran the starter dungeon over and over again, and by the third time around, I think I've managed to solidify the changes as they stand of 4/7.

Natural caveat, stuff will likely change. YMMV. Not claiming to be an expert bear tank, just happened to get a beta key and I haven't seen another thread for bears in here yet.

Currently MIA:
- Pulverize.
- Demoralizing Roar. (There's a Disorienting Roar, but it doesn't say whether it does the same thing.)
- Challenging Roar. No more AoE taunt.
- Natural Reaction.
- Either the tooltip is broken, or Agi no longer grants as much Dodge as it used to. I'm short 6% dodge in caster (20%, down from 26%), and 10% more from feral talents (Feral Swiftness no longer grants it and Natural Reaction is gone). So I'm 17% more likely to get hit now. :P Armor now absorbs 3% more damage, though.

Namechange, same effect:
- Feral Charge Bear/Cat --> Wild Charge. Now does extra stuff for caster/boomkin.
- Bash --> Mighty Bash. 50 second cooldown. You still have Skull Bash as a main talent, plus glyphed FF silences for 3 seconds.

Same name, different mechanic:
- Lacerate. Currently no longer feeds Pulverize, but instead grants 12% possibility of Mangle proc per stack. Stacks up to 3. -3- second cooldown, so no more spamming it every GCD, but also does way more damage than in live.
- Mangle. Currently no longer costs Rage,and in fact generates 5 rage. Hidden 6 second cooldown not on the tooltip, which claims 'Instant'.
- Savage Defense. Now is an on-use. 1.5 second cooldown. Lasts 6 seconds, but can be refreshed past 6. Requires 60 (55) Rage to activate. Absorbs flat 40% damage.
- Frenzied Regeneration. No longer increases health - that was split out into Might of Ursoc. Still sucks down Rage like crazy to heal you. Glyphed, increases healing received by 40%, but costs 60 rage up front. Also, 1.5 second cooldown.
- Faerie Fire. Now applies 3-sunder like armor debuff. Glyphed silences for 3 seconds.
- Mastery now only adds armor, not to Savage Defense.

Brand new toys:
- Bear Hug. Stuns and does DoT damage, but freezes you in place. I thought it was just Bash with a different name, but probably good in combo with Mighty Bash in PvP.
- Ursol's Vortex. Interesting, but I can't figure out why I might want it yet (it's in the place of taking Bash), other than to maybe gather up trash packs. It's a targeted area, can't be moved once cast, and annoyingly blocks visibility.
- Might of Ursoc: Or, 'what we did with the health buff part of Frenzied Regen.' The 4T13 bonus uses this part. 3 minute cooldown. Glyphed increases this to more, but increases the cooldown to 5 minutes.
- Mass Entanglement: Because it was too cool to only let Fandral Staghelm have. Affects up to 5 adjacent enemies, pops you out into caster form. Might be good for an initial pull where you have DPS that won't touch the other rooted mobs..
- Renewal (Talented): Restores 30% of your health. 2 minute cooldown.

----------------
Early thoughts and observations before the real druid experts here take me apart: :)

* New initial pull routine seems to be Barkskin, FF, Lacerate and Mangle alternated until you can get Savage Defense lit up. You can almost get 100% uptime on it, but not always.
* If you pop Frenzied Regen or mash Maul a few times, your Savage Defense is going to drop off and be unusable for a bit, since it takes a bit to get back up to 55 Rage. And Frenzied Regen unglyphed will suck your rage dry for the duration, so that's 6 seconds + building Rage from 0 time after it wears off where you're not under the influence of SD. Whenever I goofed up and went rage starved, I fell back on Barkskin/SI to not stress the healer too much.
* You have one given self heal (Might of Ursoc) and one talent self-heal (Renewal), which are on medium and long cooldown timers.
* If currently MT, mostly stay away from Maul unless you've got ~100 rage, since keeping up SD is critical.
* I should probably take Incarnation instead of Force of Nature, but I've always wanted to charge into a fight with killer trees. :} Incarnation reduces all melee damage ability and Growl cooldowns to 1.5 seconds, pretty much like Inner Rage does for Warriors.
* I may have to consider using a Stam/Spell resist meta gem. No more Perseverance talent means that spell effects hit harder, and there are a lot of spell effects. Thick Hide supposedly reduces spell damage taken by 25% though.

Hope this helps get the ball rolling...
-Tielyn

Fakemessiah
04-09-2012, 07:41 AM
Nice little write up, I have been on my monk tank and warrior and have yet to step foot on my bear :(

I am loving the overall tanking changes. Sounds like they added a few more things to make bear less 3 button mash :P
It's nice that they kept a damage cd and healing cd for when you have to use something else besides SD. Can't wait to try it out.

Now the big thing is gemming. On live servers I was full agility gems for LOL 50% dodge, then went pure stam for LOL almost 80k absorbs. but with what i just read in blue posts...they are going to have a lot more crit and haste on druid gear...sooooo...what does that mean, with talent changes and everything...

Either stack:
agil for dodge and more self healing due to crits.
Stam for more self healing from CDs
mastery for more armor
or do the normal mix n match like plate tanks

I have a feeling they want tank gemming to be normalized all around with these changes tho. I know on the monk I have swapped my gems out at least 20 times to get the right feel. It seems they want mastery in yellow, stam mastery in blue, and agil stam in red...i wonder if they will be same for bears.

only time will tell. All i know is I tried all the stackings, then did the mix and by far the mix is more potent. I really need to play with my bear this week and see how the gemming should go.

Fakemessiah
04-09-2012, 07:44 AM
also...stick with the treants :)
running in with killer tanking trees just seems awesome lol
It says the trees change abilities based on spec...I wonder how guardian spec will fare with these trees.
would be awesome to have them aoe attack or attack seperate tgts and all threat gained by trees is transferred to bear upon death. Or have them do a MD kind of ability right to you.

Suicideking666
04-11-2012, 05:55 PM
Demo Roar is now a part of Thrash: thrash all near by enemies, dealing immediate physical damage and periodic bleed damage, and also causes the Weakened Blows effect. Damage varies by shapeshift form. Weakened Blows: demoralizes the target, reducing their physical damage by 10% for 30 sec.

All the other tanks have this same effect baked into an ability, but have the original removed I.E. demo shout

Wooji
04-12-2012, 12:27 AM
As of beta build (15589) Savage Defense currently has 3 charges (like Monk roll) and the charges have a 9 sec recharge time making it impossible to keep it up 100% even if you have endless rage.

SD currently gives 40 dodge for 6 sec at a cost of 55 rage, using it before the buff has fallen of increases the lenght of the buff by 6 sec.

I don't have any of the other tank classes in beta at the moment so i don't know if the same system has been implemented for other similar abilitys.

Tielyn
04-15-2012, 10:40 AM
Heh. That's a huge change from 'absorbs 40% extra damage'- playing with it a little bit on a target dummy this morning gives it the behavior of being able to chain the charges together, allowing for about 18 seconds of uninterrupted 63% dodge for me, as long as I can time the charge just right, the first charge comes off of cooldown before the third is up, leading to me sitting at '1' charges continuously.

Thanks for the heads up on that and the Thrash bit. Unfortunately, macros were broken this morning so two-thirds of my bar isn't working, or I'd play with it for a little while live and report back.

Fun times...
-Tielyn

Tielyn
04-30-2012, 11:24 AM
Current tooltip is now showing 14% dodge for me no matter what form I'm in, down from the 26% I had in the beginning of the month and down a total of 22% from live (since I have Wrath of the Unchaining, and Kiril's, that goes up in combat). I get that I'm supposed to use Savage Defense since it gives +40% dodge and they removed the 1.5 second cooldown (like that's much different from the 1 second GCD), but you're going to have to get pummeled a few times before you build up the 55 Rage you need to activate it in the first place. Enrage doesn't cut it to get you to 55 before you charge in, so healers'd better get ready for The Amazing Spiky Bear Health Game again. Just fiddling with the target dummy, auto attacks and whatever Mangle procs I could get left the Savage Defense button unlit for long enough for the buff to fall off.

Once you get a full bar of rage, however, you should be fine, as long as you stay away from Maul mashing -- (I love the new junior edition tooltip: "Use when you have more rage when you can spend.") Nuh uh. You'll want to be keeping Savage Defense up if you have that much rage sitting around unless you're maxed. And woe be to the bear tank that spamcasts when they're on the OT sequence waiting to taunt back from the other tank.

I don't mind having to relearn my class rotation -- I do mind that my survival factor currently relies on me getting hit enough just at the right rate to maintain a healthy amount of rage, but not enough to eat the floor, while doing everything else we normally do on boss fights including hitting things enough to maintain threat.

If it -is- real, however, (14+40) == 54% dodge isn't that far off from what I have on live (roughly 43-45% with raid buffs and everything running), and pure dodge tanks probably have that on live -- only now we have to work for it instead of having it passively 'on' all the time. It reminds me of back in the SSC days where you had to butt tank (aka turn around and let the mobs hit you sans dodge) in order to get enough rage at times, or actually sit down so you got crit once (whereupon the game would make you automatically stand up).

(TL-DR: 36% base bear dodge on live is now 14% in beta. Prepare to micro-manage Savage Defense or be squishier than you ever remember being.)

-Tielyn

Katarn
04-30-2012, 02:07 PM
It's real. All the Dodge from talents is gone, and the coeffs from Agility and Dodge Rating have been nerfed drastically.

Tielyn
05-07-2012, 11:51 AM
Got some decent tanking in this weekend with a level 87 shammy healer backing me up.

TL-DR: The new Savage Defense mechanic plays some serious havoc with my rotation, to the point that taking Maul off my bar completely might be a good plan.

The good:
- Thrash and Swipe no longer cost rage. Furthermore, keeping Thrash up gives you 12% to proc a free Mangle, and it's a bleed. Still on 3 second cooldowns (despite not having a tooltip saying as much) but at least your AOE threat mechanic is still around to give you carpal tunnel syndrome.
- The redesign of Frenzied Regeneration now gives you all of the healing up front for 60 Rage and is based on your AP, rather than your max health. This means you have a choice of either healing yourself for about 35K or putting your dodge at +40%, because you can't do both. It's kinda like a Pally Word of Glory, only you don't get to pick between extra damage on the boss/heal self, but rather heal self/don't get hit. In other words, if your healer is having trouble, that's a handy maybe-emergency-button to have without burning one of your big cooldowns, and brings your instant heals up to 3 (talented):


Renewal (Talented) -- heals 30% health, 2 minute cooldown.
Might of Ursoc (Guardian) -- 30% max health pool, plus heal to 30% base health if below 30%, 3 minute cooldown. (aka 'half of the Frenzied Regen ability in live'). (The T13 bonus gets only the Might of Ursoc part, which is a severe nerf to its current awesomeness. I've used it to save the raid a few times.)
Frenzied Regen - Now an AP based heal (great if you're the tank, kinda lame if not) -- 1.5 second cooldown. Glyphed does its 'increases healing that can be done to you by a chunk, but no longer heals you' stunt.


The meh:
- Lacerate also gives you 12% per stack to proc a free Mangle, stacks to 3 like always, but it falls off way too quick for my liking, and there's no way to cash it (Pulverize is still gone) so it feels weird seeing it up there. It's not like Sunder where you can stack it to three and forget it for awhile, because by the time I get done collecting adds up in the Jade Temple instance, I have to put it back up again.
- Mangle is your main rage generator when you're not getting hit. Despite having up to 48% proc capability from Lacerate + Thrash, I didn't see it proccing a whole lot, and right now it generates 5 Rage per hit (7 if talented), so in order to get to your next Savage Defense, you need at most 11 Mangle procs -- remember though that Savage Defense falls off in 6 seconds, though, so even though I was trying really hard, it's nigh impossible to keep it going consistently -- but it may be that I was hitting Maul and inadvertently burning my Rage.
- Even from a standing start, Enrage, wait for it to build up, then go in, there's a noticeable point of 'mobs hitting you at nearly no dodge' before you get your first SD available. Fortunately Thrash/Swipe/Mangle/Lacerate doesn't cost any rage (currently, anyway), so you can go in and establish threat reasonably well, but you'd better love your healers, because especially on bosses, your health dips alarmingly at points.

Threat: Despite going in with two of our biggest aggro fiends, I didn't have any problem holding threat or peeling back off of them if they picked up a stray mob (I lost Growl off my button bar at one point due to a broken macro and didn't notice I wasn't taunting). Once I got a better handle on the SD/FR choice, I got a lot easier to heal as well. Most of the time, anyway.

Also:
Skull Bash is on a 15 second cooldown, and you can't talent it down to 10. However, you can glyph for Faerie Fire to also silence, putting that on a 15 second cooldown -- except that takes up one of your Major Glyphs. That might make Nefarian hard to do with its 12 second cooldown on Nova... since 2x15 < 3x10, unless Bear Hug works on them too, but that's a minute cooldown...

Will keep folks posted.
-Tielyn

Ericastar
05-12-2012, 01:44 AM
I was thinking to reroll to bear on this expansion but though i enjoy it very much and looks interesting in MoP, im not so thrilled to have a tank as my main! but overall i love bears!

Tielyn
05-13-2012, 03:24 PM
Update: Confirmed what I found on the Warrior MoP thread:

You no longer get rage from being hit or dodging attacks. Zero. I sat in Tol Barad with those spider mobs chewing on me, throwing spells on me, dotting me up, rage bar at zero. For as long as I've been tanking, I've been used to needing rage to attack, and the best way to get rage was to get things to attack you.

Only by attacking stuff (and autoattacks) will you get rage, plus your usual Enrage for things. Fortunately, since most of your attacks no longer -cost- rage, the new mechanic for tanking is 'use your rage to manage your defensive abilities (Frenzied Regen and Savage Defense).'

Unfortunately, building up to that 60 rage is going to be a problem. GCDs are the limiting factor - you have to be able to string together enough rage via attacks that generate rage to have those defensive abilities available to you, so I am definitely reiterating: 'take Maul off your bar or at least put it out of the way'. You don't need it for threat, using it makes you a hella lot more vulnerable to being squished if it drops you below 60 rage, and unless you're the tank waiting to taunt and have a full rage bar, you're a tank, you don't need to pad the DPS meters, your job is to stay upright. I got a lot more practice playing with defensive ability management when my healer kept dying on the last boss of Jade Temple because he kept running away from me instead of stacking....

Your effective tanking goal, therefore, (still imho, based on current practice) is to keep your Thrash and Lacerate bleeds running at all times (12%x4=48% proc of a free Mangle), and hit Mangle whenever it's up, and just use your rage for the SD|FR hit whenever you look like you need one. If you have the 60 rage, hit Savage Defense if you're up above 60% health (your healer will love you for it, because your dodge will be 40% more instead of sub-20%, or Frenzied Regen if you're below half health. If you have a full rage bar, you can actually do both after a couple more Mangle hits.

You're trading getting hit less for helping your healer out - at full Vengance, mine is currently healing me for 91K on a crit, 53K normal, which is nothing to sneeze at. It kinda feels more like a Paladin WoG heal now, in a lot of ways, only you use red mana. :D

-Tielyn

PS. Ericastar; Try the beta bear. It's a free 85 with free gear.

Tielyn
05-28-2012, 07:03 PM
Urgh.

In the words of Sean Connery:
"Our situation has not improved."

The latest patch brings a 'buff' to Savage Defense -- it went from +40 dodge to +45 dodge -- but the nerf bat got wielded again on Dodge scaling. I'm down to 12.65% from 14% and change, so we're slightly at a plus, supposedly, but.... when your very survival pretty much requires you to have a perfect rotation to keep your rage up, or you're sitting at 'Hit Me Really Hard and Often' percentage.

Also, the Mastery scaling got nerfed slightly - I'm down to 9% armor buff from 10%. Total armor absorb is 65.65% right now. Compared to the premade pally I copied over, at 55.74% armor absorb... that's pretty much our mastery in action. And it's actually -lower- than the 66.94% armor absorb I have on live.

Yes, Thick Hide gives us 25% magic resist passive, but that's not gonna make up for the fact that we're going to get hit a lot. More so than a paladin with combined dodge and parry of 24% -- and they have block on top of it. Passive block, mind you. But a whole lot more passive mitigation than we have.

Also new data: you're going to need to get your hit and expertise capped again. Without it, you're not getting any rage (see again: getting hit does nothing for you). -Every- hit counts now -- I put on my caster gear and whacked on a target dummy. It took 32 seconds to get enough rage (tested a handful of times running with a stopwatch) for one Savage Defense with 0 hit and 0 expertise, as any attack that misses, gets parried, or dodged does not generate any rage at all. You'll also need to keep decent crit, because without it your Primal Fury won't proc as much -- and each crit is worth 15 rage.

Also, Fury Swipes appears to be gone, taking 8.5% of my damage with it. :|

I've done some pally tanking in the meantime. (I was that upset.) Comparing the two side by side, bear tanking is all about using your buttons to stay alive. Pally tanking is more about keeping threat on things... while building up combo points. It's going to be really hard to raid lead while maintaining a rotation that's the only thing keeping me in Dodge while doing other stuff...

-Tielyn

Tielyn
06-07-2012, 11:21 PM
Good news.

Dodge got buffed on bears. I'm back up to 17% dodge -- without Savage Defense getting nerfed in the process. When my Wrath of Unchaining and Kiril are both up and running, that makes it up to 19% dodge + 45% more for a total of 64% dodge when Savage Defense is up. Sadly, it's still dodge. So keep that Maul off your bar, folks.

In other news, Frenzied Regeneration has been tweaked such that it no longer requires 60 Rage to use, but rather consumes up to 60 Rage and heals you some percentage of your AP in health. If you have more than 60 rage, it eats all 60, but if you have 5, 9, or 59.999 rage, it still goes off, just for less healing. That's a bit of an improvement -- it gives you a fairly functional Heal Self button to work with on a 1.5 second cooldown to go with your other Heal Self buttons.

-T.

Tielyn
06-26-2012, 03:54 PM
Minor update; no news is no good news, but no bad news either.

I've been doing side by side comparisons on the same mobs and dungeons with my 87 druid versus 87 pally, and the last batch of updates does fit the bill of 'you need to actively manage your Rage-based defensives' like Blizz wants. Talented to where Mangle gives me 7 Rage per hit keeps me with enough Rage by going through my normal rotation to have a reasonably small gap in defensiveness, and having 60% dodge now and again is pretty nice. Frenzied regen crits for 97K heals, which got me through a boss fight after the healer died at one point. I'm finding that my health is, as to be expected, pretty spiky, so I'll wind up hitting FR if the healer is falling behind (which happened fairly often on boss fights), and Savage Defense otherwise.

On the other paw; threat is definitely not much of an issue. I'm showing at 600+% threat over anyone around me, whereas my paladin runs around 174% threat of the next highest DPS, and Mangles which hit for 65K melt things waaaay faster than the pally's 15-23K hits. You really do want to rethink your rotation around Thrash/Lacerate, because Mangle is your big damage sink whenever it procs. If you have a full rage bar, you'll still want to avoid Maul unless you have 0 stacks of Savage Defense available -and- a full health bar. It may seem like you're wasting rage, but having both defensive abilities available to you in a row is really nice to have. Maul only seems to hit for 23K or so, so it's definitely not worth getting hammered by the boss while you build back up.

One note that is unconfirmed: since Thrash is placed on every mob you hit, I'm not sure that the 12% chance to proc Mangle is additive (5 mobs w/ thrash = 12%x5=60%? Or still just 12% ) since I don't have a way to keep a combat log just yet. If that's true, though, it makes us more like Wrath paladins in the sense of 'Yessss... pull more...' sense where you build rage faster via more free Mangle procs at the cost of more incoming damage taken per second when your SD stacks are at 0. I noticed I had a very hard time keeping SD up on a single target (boss) fight, versus trash tanking, where I was down to 0 fairly easily, but that might have been a statistical aberration.

When MoP goes live, I strongly suggest running the quests as a viable alternative to dungeon grinding. The XP is better per hour in the dungeon, but the item rewards from questing are guaranteed, and you'll be fighting every monk and rogue for the blue item drops which are only slightly better than the green quest items you get -- even if you're fighting everyone else who will be mad-questing when the new expansion drops. Also, the 87 dungeons have a minimum ilevel requirement that you can't easily get from running dungeons alone - I had the chest and boots on my druid and the weapon and bracers on my paladin, but it wasn't until I ran some of the 87 quests that I filled out enough gear to tip the balance.

Also, I never seem to need Might of Ursoc. Yes, it raises my max health by 30%, floor 30% health, but I get more bang for my buck out of Frenzied Regen. (Now if they'd kept the 4PT13 bonus to do Might of Ursoc + FR like it is in live.... that would be stupidly overpowered tank heals on the raid. :D) Ah well. I can dream.

-T.

Leucifer
06-26-2012, 03:59 PM
The sad thing about this..... it really sounds like if you're running dungeons while leveling, pretty much all the tank classes will just be 'non-functional'. this was one of the complaints I had with Cata, that you really didn't get a lot of the essential tank abilities until 74+.

Sure, for everyone at end-game, it'll work just fine. For anyone starting from scratch (warning to all monks), you might really have a gimpy tank until max level.

Fetzie
06-26-2012, 04:04 PM
The sad thing about this..... it really sounds like if you're running dungeons while leveling, pretty much all the tank classes will just be 'non-functional'. this was one of the complaints I had with Cata, that you really didn't get a lot of the essential tank abilities until 74+.

Sure, for everyone at end-game, it'll work just fine. For anyone starting from scratch (warning to all monks), you might really have a gimpy tank until max level.


I didn't have a Shield Wall cooldown from October till nearly December when I got to 85 when it was moved from Divine Protection to Guardian of Ancient Kings >.>

Leucifer
06-26-2012, 04:12 PM
I didn't have a Shield Wall cooldown from October till nearly December when I got to 85 when it was moved from Divine Protection to Guardian of Ancient Kings >.>

Yeah, but Fetz, your pally still had a LOT of the basic functional rotation abilities. HoR, Capt. America Shield, Judgement, consecrate..... you had the majority of the tools you'd need to learn how to tank as a pally.

I can tell you though, from 1-70+.... you're missing a lot more than that, and well... like lack of HoR at one point really sucks. It's the primary AoE threat tool for a pally. Consecrate doesn't pull hard enough.

I'm just thinking of this from the perspective of "how do we bring the new players in?". It's just really a pain in the ass to have a guy/gal go racing to 85 (90), and then want to tank...... but haven't even started learning the basics because of how non-functional it is on the way up.

And again.... consider all the new little monks we'll be seeing. They WILL start at 1. Do you think Blizzard is going to have an intuitive learning curve for them?..... or will it be.... "OH! you're level 90 now!.... Here's a totally new rotation. Everything you did before is stupid because we held back a key end-game tank ability!".

Tielyn
06-26-2012, 04:56 PM
Oh yes... I remember when Cata dropped and they dropped Swipe from on-GCD to '6 second cooldown' it was a pain in the fuzzy butt to hold threat on trash packs because Thrash was a level 81 talent and our only other AoE attack was Thorns :D ... I remember seeing low-level feral 'tanks' in Wailing Caverns running about and tanking in catform because Bear form and Cat form got swapped, too.

You know... I feel like being crazy and rolling a level 1 pally and druid on the beta and see how well they roll out, once I hit 90 with these... thanks for the idea!

My biggest concern is that the 'active tanking' is going to weed out a lot of the passable tanks, but also those who are too stubborn to learn the new rotation but don't want to give up their tanking shoes will burn out the healers. I told our heal lead about the new bits, and she's not happy to hear that she's going to have to do double time to keep the tanks up if they don't get with the program, and I'm debating -requiring- my main tanks to practice on the beta before the real thing hits so they know what they're in for early, rather than late.

-T.

Tielyn
07-03-2012, 04:03 PM
Urgh.

Latest patch includes a 12% nerf to Mangle. Extremely noticeable while running the Jade Serpent Temple for the 12th time. Yeah, yeah, I know, we were due, but it's still hitting for less than I hit on Live for, and as our main (and really only) main engine attack, it kinda hurt.

Also, dodge got scaled back down again. I'm at a touch under 14% dodge, down from 17% -- might have something to do in that they did some sort of weird scaled gear nerf so that when you're in an instance gear shows two iLvl numbers -- like my 414 gloves showed 407 and my 397 gear showed as 382. Or something like that.

Single target tanking is accordingly affected, in that you will have a hard time generating rage at points in fights, where I was going 10-12 seconds from 0 to 60 rage sometimes and the healer was having issues accordingly. The good news is that FR still scales with vengance AP, so I was able to top myself off from half health with a FR, but at the cost of not having a SD available for even longer. I found that kinda adopting the paladin attitude (ShotR >> WoG) helped a bunch, but sometimes it was like bailing out a leaky boat because I'd be forced to use FR constantly when the healer was OOM.

Also, despite having 25% passive magic resist, the Sha of Doubt's AOE pulse kills me if the healer dies, no save, no recourse. Frenzied Regen can't keep up, though it keeps up just fine with the melee damage the boss puts out, because I only had to help the healer sometimes. And I can't dispel it off myself either. (I don't think, anyway.)

-T.

Tengenstein
07-03-2012, 08:27 PM
How are you running temple of the jade serpent, hasn't it's been out of the LFG for a couple of weeks now? the lack of avoidance kinda makes up for the fact that bears will have more stam and armour( excluding the additional armour from mastery) than the other tank classes. The gear scaling in dungeons brings your ilvls up or down to be appropriate for the dungeons, generally 440 for level 90 dungeons, less for the lower level ones. If you want more rage you need to gear for it accordingly, and this means getting hit and expertise, preferably to the caps and with those caps bears should be able to get a fairly decent uptime on SD/FR, and yes you should be having to choose between both (though if your healers ooming something somewhere is really wrong.)

And no, in the appropriate gear you should not be able to kill bosses without a healer. That's a pretty ridiculous expectation to have. and no tanks aren't meant to be able to dispel it (though the healer should be). it kinda defeats the point of even bringing healers if the tank can sort out the debuffs and heal themselves through the damage.

Tielyn
07-04-2012, 12:38 PM
Heh. Oh, believe me, I know. I usually try and stay hit and expertise capped the whole way, and I figured that out immediately when I saw the change from 'being hit gives you rage' to 'only hitting the boss gives you rage.' (see comment earlier from me back on 5/28:)


Also new data: you're going to need to get your hit and expertise capped again. Without it, you're not getting any rage (see again: getting hit does nothing for you). -Every- hit counts now -- I put on my caster gear and whacked on a target dummy. It took 32 seconds to get enough rage (tested a handful of times running with a stopwatch) for one Savage Defense with 0 hit and 0 expertise, as any attack that misses, gets parried, or dodged does not generate any rage at all. You'll also need to keep decent crit, because without it your Primal Fury won't proc as much -- and each crit is worth 15 rage.


I definitely do not expect to be able to kill bosses without a healer; it should be a rare, seat-of-the-pants, end-of-the-fight thing at best. But the tank should be able to survive for more than 10 seconds if the healer eats it for one of the battlerez-capable people to raise the healer, and I -have- soloed this particular boss down the last 15% in the past on the beta because the rest of the group died during the add phase. (I think it might have been during the time when SD was a 40% absorb All damage, though, so there ya go.) They buffed the damage that the AoE does, and it killed me in no time flat. And we needed to have our level 90 shaman go heals to help out the level 86 druid because he wasn't dispelling the shadow debuff when he was alive (he apparently didn't have the talent point for it), so was going OOM and we were dying from magic damage all around.

That being said: I've seen Paladins solo bosses from upwards of 35% health in live because they have a lot of tools to heal themselves and prevent damage.

Comparing apples to plate-wearing apples a moment from my beta characters:
Level 88 paladin: 9.60% dodge, 15.89% parry. (also, 26% block, that doesn't count as avoidance)
Level 87 druid, base: 13.92% dodge.

Essentially, my paladin has 11% more base complete avoidance than I do as my bear, and some function of block on top of it. My instant heals are faster in theory if I run a string of lucky crits to get a Frenzied Regen off, versus the consistent have-to-wait-for-three-charges-of-WoG, but they also have the GCD-based Holy Light to work with, whereas Druid healing touch pops you out of form, drops your Vengance stacks and the bonus stamina for being in bear form. Sure, arguably, we have a 20% Stamina buff by being a bear, but that's fluctuated up and down the line at points to be as low as 10%. And we do have a mastery-based passive armor buff (right now mine is at 8%), but it's the same armor as we have in live, while the Savage Defense of Live has been turned into the active defense thingy on the Beta, which isn't available at all if you're busy healing yourself trying to keep up.
(soapbox off).

All I was really saying is that in the latest build is that I definitely feel a LOT squishier than previous builds to date. Having been both a healer (druid/shaman) and tank (warrior/pally/druid) since Burning Crusade, you get a feeling of how well you soak up damage versus how hard your healer has to work to keep you upright while minding the rest of the party/raid. This definitely has the feel of Ulduar-style druid tanks now -- very, very, spiky health and quickly dead if something happens to the healer. We lost a lot of tank cred in those days, and it is shaping up to be that way again.

edited to add: Admittedly, warriors don't really have any castable heals or self-heals at all, so I can't exactly complain, can I... :)


-Tielyn

PS. You can still get Temple of the Jade Serpent by specific-queueing for it. My guild runs a meetup on Sunday evenings just to keep testing the latest patch changes, and one of our people that night was 85, so that's what we did to get in. :) If you die in there, there's a giant Tauren next to the spirit healer to get you back in when you talk to him.

Tengenstein
07-04-2012, 04:13 PM
druid because he wasn't dispelling the shadow debuff when he was alive (he apparently didn't have the talent point for it), so was going OOM and we were dying from magic damage all around.


Then your Druids needs to read his spellbook, if you're resto spec you get your magic dispel at level 22




That being said: I've seen Paladins solo bosses from upwards of 35% health in live because they have a lot of tools to heal themselves and prevent damage.


On live you don't need healers for most 5 mans if people do the fights right. Mainly because everyone over gears them massively



Comparing apples to plate-wearing apples a moment from my beta characters:
Level 88 paladin: 9.60% dodge, 15.89% parry. (also, 26% block, that doesn't count as avoidance)
Level 87 druid, base: 13.92% dodge.

Essentially, my paladin has 11% more base complete avoidance than I do as my bear, and some function of block on top of it. My instant heals are faster in theory if I run a string of lucky crits to get a Frenzied Regen off, versus the consistent have-to-wait-for-three-charges-of-WoG, but they also have the GCD-based Holy Light to work with, whereas Druid healing touch pops you out of form, drops your Vengance stacks and the bonus stamina for being in bear form. Sure, arguably, we have a 20% Stamina buff by being a bear, but that's fluctuated up and down the line at points to be as low as 10%. And we do have a mastery-based passive armor buff (right now mine is at 8%), but it's the same armor as we have in live, while the Savage Defense of Live has been turned into the active defense thingy on the Beta, which isn't available at all if you're busy healing yourself trying to keep up.
(soapbox off).


Druids have more armour even with zero mastery. my level 86 Druid in the purchasable greens has 55k armour with 10% mastery, so 50k without. My level 90 warrior with a few rep epics and at least 60 ilvls higher has 44k armour. Druids just have more passive physical damage reduction (and magic too).

The X or Y active defense problem is shared by Prot warriors and paladinsIf paladins are healing they're not having there ShotR Damage reduction, If warriors are keeping barrier up they aren't keeping shield block up and for warriors thats a big deal as with out shield block you practically lose your enrage mechanic which is about 20% rage loss.



All I was really saying is that in the latest build is that I definitely feel a LOT squishier than previous builds to date. Having been both a healer (druid/shaman) and tank (warrior/pally/druid) since Burning Crusade, you get a feeling of how well you soak up damage versus how hard your healer has to work to keep you upright while minding the rest of the party/raid. This definitely has the feel of Ulduar-style druid tanks now -- very, very, spiky health and quickly dead if something happens to the healer. We lost a lot of tank cred in those days, and it is shaping up to be that way again.

edited to add: Admittedly, warriors don't really have any castable heals or self-heals at all, so I can't exactly complain, can I... :)


Well If you weren't a DK tank in ulduar you lost alot of cred. Warriors had to deal with Gormok insta-gibbing them a tier later as well. I dunno it's just like your playing a different game, when i jump on my druid the rage income is so smooth, the ability to recover is great.

Tielyn
07-04-2012, 04:30 PM
Heh! I'm not saying you're wrong, Tengenstein. But I'm running tests right now on single versus multiple mobs, and it typically takes anywhere between 6-9 GCDs to generate 60 rage and I'm hitcapped and almost expertise-capped (damn you level scaling!). Pity the beta doesn't show Armory stats or anything, or I'd see if I'm doing anything different from ya.

My rotation is: Mangle, Lacerate, Thrash, Lacerate, Mangle, Lacerate, Swipe, while not moving with the mob in frot of me. The only time I get 60 rage faster is if I string a few crits back to back, or if my Starcatcher Compass procs (mmm... 1.86 swings). I did notice we get 50% bonus crit/haste now -- I have 31% crit, 10% haste at the moment. What are you showing as?

I had to reforge all of my gear out of Mastery, Haste, and Crit to get the hit cap. :P Iiick.

-Tielyn

Tengenstein
07-04-2012, 04:54 PM
I'm Mangle>Lac>FFF>Lac on single targets weaving Thrash in place of FFF to keep the buff up or if i get a mangle proc after a FFF, On AoE its Mangle>Swipe>Thrash>Swipe, with FFF/Lac replacing THrash on 4.5second Mangle procs. I'm close to 35% crit and 10% haste and i think as I mathed it out i have ~5.3rage per second on average.

One thing i've noticed is that procs don't get scaled like gear does,

Katarn
07-05-2012, 09:01 AM
Couple things:

1) Thrash > FFF at all times (unless you are using FS or the glyph or something). The amount of damage done by Thrash in the 6 second CD is more than the amount FFF does.

2) There was no nerf to Mangle as far as I know. I mean I'll test it when I get home today, but I don't think it's there.

Tengenstein
07-05-2012, 10:02 AM
Not so sure about that; Napkin math here ANd i'm really unsure of the AP values.

Over the course of 18 seconds i get 1 thrash hit, 8 thrash ticks and 2 FFFs, you get 3 thrash hits and 9 thrash ticks excluding our mangles and lacerates which we'll take as being the same. A Thrash hit is 20% AP, a Thrash tick is 10% AP, and FFF hit is 35% (somone check this), So i get from the 3 GCDs 20% + (8x10%) + (2+35%), or 170% AP. You get (3x20%) + (9x10%). or 150% AP. Until they start letting Thrash roll its ticks I think FFF is better is Thrash if Thrash is already ticking. DPE you're right Thrash > FFF But if you clip thrash you really start tearing in to its DPE.

Katarn
07-05-2012, 04:36 PM
Thrash Damage in a 6 second window: 20.3% AP + 3(9.36%) AP = 48.38% AP
FFF Damage: 37.8% AP

If you can guarantee that you will refresh Thrash every time you hit it, then yes it's better to refresh it later as opposed to earlier and replace those GCDs with FFF. However once you lose 2 ticks of Thrash because it missed when you were trying to refresh it, it becomes a DPS loss to use FFF instead.

You could probably usually get away with dropping the first Thrash in a 16 second window and replacing it with FFF. But I'd probably keep the 2nd and 3rd until you are Hit + Exp capped.

And just checked. Mangle (Bear) is still 4.7*Weapon Damage. No nerf.

Tengenstein
07-05-2012, 05:29 PM
Thrash Damage in a 6 second window: 20.3% AP + 3(9.36%) AP = 48.38% AP
FFF Damage: 37.8% AP

If you can guarantee that you will refresh Thrash every time you hit it, then yes it's better to refresh it later as opposed to earlier and replace those GCDs with FFF. However once you lose 2 ticks of Thrash because it missed when you were trying to refresh it, it becomes a DPS loss to use FFF instead.

You could probably usually get away with dropping the first Thrash in a 16 second window and replacing it with FFF. But I'd probably keep the 2nd and 3rd until you are Hit + Exp capped.


Why aren't you hit expertise soft capped? as improtant Rage gen is for active defences, not having those caps kinda makes you rather squishy, almost like not having the defcap made you kinda squishy pre-cata

I'm fairly sure I wrote something about strict DPE values, you can't straight compare them becuase If thrash was put up in the previous cycle or two it will still be ticking, And whilst yes, mine does lose more DPS if my attacks fail to connect, the vast majority of the time I will connect. Even with 0hit/expertise 75% of the time my rotation is higher DPS. yes if you miss you lose a thrash hit, if i miss i lose three thrash ticks and have to replace an FFF with a Thrash Hit. so what does that mean? some really baad maths, if 75% of the time i connect and do 170.78% AP and the other 25% I do 104.9% ap i would on average do 154.31% AP, assuming your rotation suffers one miss in an 18 second cycle 75% of the time you would do 145.14%AP damage and 25% of the time you would do 124.84%AP, so on average 140.065% AP. Even if my Thrash fails to connect first time round my rotation still does more damage than your if your Thrash always connects.

The Thrash DOT only has a 16second duration so you can't fit 3 FFFs before having to refresh it, I have no clue where you get the 3rd FFF from, asuming the best mangle procs you might be able to weave a Thrash in every 15.5 seconds (as how GCD falls) But that still will only let you get in 2 FFFs

Tielyn
07-06-2012, 01:34 PM
Ah well. I play this game for the people in my guild, and for the interesting stuff the devs throw in. I'm just reporting stuff as I find/see it, but sometimes I'm not right either. :) I admit it.

Turns out 12% Mangle nerf went into play in the http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/2794-Mists-of-Pandaria-Beta-Build-15739 patch, in the first week of June, but I only really noticed it this last week when I was looking at the numbers.

Usually I bear tank in live Sunday during the day, and then do it again in the Beta in the evening; that's where I get my 'feel' from in terms of squishyness/power, because I'm comparing apples to apples, except one apple is a level 88. :) And we missed two weeks in a row in June because the time we were intending to meet up was met with the servers not letting us on, which is the right timeframe for me not to notice it until this past weekend. :}. Just that there have been a couple of beta patches since then. And without a working damage meter, it's a perception thing and seeing comparable numbers from memory week after week. (Turns out the Mangle nerf only seems to apply to the Cat version, not the Bear version. So I'm still probably wrong and I admit it, unless the Bear tooltip hasn't been updated.)

The new bear tank dynamic, whether it's 5.3 rage/second --> ~11 seconds between SD capability (60 rage/5.3) or 6-9 GCD (9-12 seconds assuming no movement or extraneous non-rage generating stuff) leaves 3-6 second windows of high vulnerability (as in, you're going to get hit), more so if you choose Frenzied Regeneration over Savage Defense, because now it's 12-18 seconds at 14% dodge (and yes, slightly "higher" armor due to mastery (currently 6% higher due to having to reforge all of my gear out of mastery to be hitcapped) and slightly "higher" health; my level 88 paladin has 219K health and the druid has 226K, which isn't that much of a difference as bosses hit...). And unless the healer is keeping up, any boss that mixes magic (which can't be dodged, rendering SD useless) and melee hits spells bad news for the bears.

Compared to a SD absorb shield that was constantly being refreshed every 3-5 seconds last night before its 10 second duration ran out while tanking in Dragon Soul on Heroic Morchok, it's definitely a noticeable downside change.


-T.

Tielyn
07-06-2012, 02:00 PM
Followup thought, 'aha' moment: Build up to 100 rage and stay there, wait for period of heavy incoming melee damage (such as Hagara's Frenzied Strikes attack or when Zon'ozz is up to lots of stacks of anger) and string together multiple SDs in a row, since 12+ seconds of high dodge is going to outlast any boss flurry style attack. You could burn off a few Mauls just to not waste the extra Rage, since it takes one crit (15 Rage award) or 1 Mangle (7) + any one non Maul attack to stay at a high level of Rage.

Trick is to recognize when the big hits are coming and plan ahead until then to have that full Rage bar, but at the cost of being squishy for an extended period of time at the start. The paladin equivalent is to sit at 5 Holy Power so you can string two ShotRs back to back for... 6 seconds of high damage absorb. I'd been operating in the thinkspace of 'build up enough to get off a SD, start again from zero to try and build another one before the first one falls off', which is not really possible and probably what the devs really wanted in terms of 'now you need to choose when to be highly tank-capable instead of being a passive meat shield'.

I dunno. I feel that the hardest point of any fight for a healer and tank is the first few seconds, while everyone is charging in and not casting any heals, and placing a boss, so that I want my better survivability moments available up front (which, arguably, is what Barkskin is for...) instead of having the double whammy of both ramping up threat and my defenses simultaneously. DPS just need to get all their combo points and DoTs up, and they're good to go on rotation/refresh/follow the boss/stay out of fire (snicker) mode for the rest of the fight. I guess tanks having the cooldown on boss-special/taunt on cue/maneuver boss/add control wasn't enough for us to do? :} It's like having the healers have to play a minigame with something other than mana conservation while saving everyone's tail. (One of the jokes we had in last weekend's raid: "What would happen if healing required hit rating?" 'I tried healing you but you parried it.' )

I don't know that I like the idea of being only somewhat less squishy than a DPS as a default state, and having to stress my healer any other time than when I choose to be high-dodge or help them out by healing myself being the new 'tank' playstyle for bear tanks. It'd be great for Baelroc-style fights if you're the dodge tank, not as much if you're the regular tank...

-T.

Tengenstein
07-06-2012, 02:28 PM
Compared to a SD absorb shield that was constantly being refreshed every 3-5 seconds last night before its 10 second duration ran out while tanking in Dragon Soul on Heroic Morchok, it's definitely a noticeable downside change.


-T.

HC Morchock was tuned for a 391 ilvl and has had a 25% damage and health nerf, so now the appropriate ilvl for him would be about 378. I highly doubt you don't over gear it, and you really can't compare end of expansion over geared expiereices against nerfed bosses to appropriately geared beginning of expansion dungeons. Of course your gonna feel squishy by comparison.

I could have made the same comparison about the start of Cata I'd just come out of ICC HC, I had nearly 70k HP and the armour cap and expertise cap, going into Cata dungeons i had my arse handed to me.

Tielyn
07-06-2012, 02:59 PM
You have a point there - I remember trying to do the Hour of Twilight dungeons the first day they came out and it was painful as all heck to do. I've got a 396 ilvl right now and we're doing full clears of the instance on Normal, while still getting our tails handed to us on any given day on heroics. But that's another problem for another time. :)

I guess what I'm saying here is that I have my rotation and gear tuned for maximum uptime on Savage Defense, (35.5% uptime last night on our best heroic Morchok attempt, remembering that there are periods where it drops off because we can't hit the boss at all, 1.2 million damage absorbed) and trading that absorb shield in for a flat dodge bonus that you can't keep up because of the new mechanics of our class isn't a fair deal. I remember when we didn't have it in Ulduar and we were way squishy/spiky, so really we're just going back to that again, only reforging to dodge isn't going to work near as well as it did in Cata.

Maybe it'll improve when I hit 90 and get geared properly, and this is just the level scaling nerf in action. Hard to say. :)

-T.

Tengenstein
07-06-2012, 05:49 PM
I don't think its really fair to compare this to ulduar. Wrath had very different healing and tanking models. in Wrath a boss did hit you for 50-90% of your HP, Healers didn't care about efficiency they just pumped there highest HPS heal into you, and we as tanks didn't care for avoidance, we stacked stam becuase when a boss could kill you in three hits buying that 4th hits worth of HP was a 25% increase in Time to live. Cata bosses don't hit that hard. Mana isn't infinite and stamina is not the one and only stat that defines your worth a s tank Morchok's melee hits struggle to take more than a 20% of my health off in a single blow. MoP bosses don't hit that hard either, the sha of doubt does not level you in 3 GCDs.

There are problems with savage defense on live that unlike every other tanks mastery it does not scale with damage taken (unless you running at under 100% vengeance which only happens on trivial content) which is why druids stack agility rather than mastery as the other tanks do. Zonozz is a great example of the problem.at 0 stack he doens't hit that hard SD procks can easily shave 40% off each melee hit. at later stacks becuase SD is a fixed amount what starst off as a 40% absorb is only a 20% absorb. Block doesn't work like that. Blood shield doesn't work like that Block is a fixed % damage reduction if he hits for 30k my block reduces that by 9K, if he hits for 300K my block rips 90K. Blood shield scales off damage taken, think my dk gets 200% of 20% of the damage taken over the last 5 seconds as an absorb, up to 100% of her HP. SD's static absorb shield sucks in comparison. Druid saren't spikey becuase they got SD, druids aren't spikey becuase the bosses just don't hit for as much of your HP anymore. Marrowgar used to hit tanks for 27k each, Morchok hits for about that much now.

Anway rage, lets talk some numbers lets assume mangle give you 5 rage per hit, Mangle has a 4.875second CD (25% of 3sec CD, 25% chance of 4.5%, and 50% chance of having a 6 second CD) however Berserk means that 1/18th of the time it has a CD of 1.5seconds so it actually has an average CD of 4.6875. Everytime you crit with a mangle you get 15 rage extra or 300% extra rage, hit and expertise will likewise increase RSP i think we have 22.5% to fail to connect. so 5*(1+(3*crit chance)*(0.775+Hit+expertise)/4.6875.

You could talent Soul of the Forestso you generate 7 rage per mangle so then you'd gain 1.4359RPS and crits would only gain you 214.28% extra so you'd gain 7*(1+(0.21428*crit%)*(0.775+Hit%+expertise%)/4.6875

You could otherwise talent Incarnation so that Mangle has a 1.5%s CD a further1/6th of the time in which case on mangle would have an average CD of 3.9792s so 5*(1+(0.3*crit*)*(0.775+Hit+expertise)/3.9792

Bears aslo gain 6 rage per melee swing, with a base swing time of 2.5seconds and also gain an extra 15 rage every time they crit, or 25% extra rage so 6*(1+(0.25*crit%)*(0.775+Hit%+expertise%)/(2.5/(1+haste%))

EDIT: Enrage adds 0.5 RPS to all builds


EDIT2: okay think i've done, the general gearing priority i'd suggest for maximum rage would be Hit=Exp>Haste>Crit, with 40% Crit 16% haste and hit/exptise caps i'm mathing to 4.8rps with the SoF, 4.6rps with Incarnation and 4.4rps with FoN.

Tielyn
07-09-2012, 04:28 PM
Mmm. Tasty...crunchy... math numbers. :9

Thank you for doing the math work on that, Tengenstein. I think a part of the damage nerf I saw in Jade Temple was because of the gear downscaling that happened; I don't remember seeing that until recently, so I (incorrectly) attributed it to a Mangle nerf.

You kinda have to talent for the 7 point Mangle, since Soul of the Forest is on the same tier as Incarnation, and I hadn't thought about Incarnation being used to build up emergency Mangle points - I use Berserk for that. Which is why I took Soul of the Forest instead -- it's a lot like choosing between Holy Avenger, Sanctified Wrath, or Divine Purpose for paladins, in my head. Soul of the Forest looks better according to the numbers you put up, if I read them right.

Meanwhile...

I had the fortune(?) to wander into Shadopan Monastery because a quest chain led me there. This time, they scaled all of my gear _up_ to 419 for testing purposes, and if there was an invisible GM watching, they got to see me barrel into trash packs all by my lonesome and put the test of This Or That into play without the benefit of a healer.

Short form: I put a new rotation into play. Build a full rage bar. Monitor your health carefully, and know how much a Vengance-buffed FR heals for. If your health is fine and the boss is a melee boss, hit SD. If your health is around 1 FR and the boss is a melee boss, hit SD, then FR, and start building up to another. If the boss is a magic boss, hit FR and wait for your bar to refill.

I nearly soloed the first boss in there, since it was all positional based magic damage for phase 1, gimmick based light magic damage for phase 2, and only phase 3 'he hits harder the less health he has' was what stopped me. Got him down to 15K health each time, but the last bit would whomp me. Need to save my SI for that, I think. Had to stop to repair, and will probably come back with a little better gear (and maybe a healer) to try again.

The Phase 2 mechanic: 'everyone gets a bubble on them that goes away once you heal the person of 50K damage.' Considering Vengance-based FR heals for 50-90K... I just waited for the bubble to go up and then popped it immediately. Occasionally I'd have to double dip to heal back up, but for the most part the healer wouldn't have to pay attention to me until phase 3, which considering he/she would have their hands full healing everyone else who didn't have a big heal would be a lot of the fight there.

I guess the reason I compare it to Ulduar-style bears is because it's simply a race between the healer trying to fill your health bar before the boss runs it dry. I've had healers who were struggling to keep up, because some of their GCDs are going to other party members, and some healers who had lots of decent AoE heals having no problem at all. The other part is that in Cata, you went for Dodge reforges and got Agi gems, because the less you got hit, the less your healers had to work to keep you up, and this new version only allows you to dodge actively rather than passively. Bear tank players who don't _get_ that will be Squishy because they won't be trying to work up to a dodge buff.

If you are having to burn your Rage bar spells as soon as you get it to 60, you will feel like you are struggling to keep up, and if you are moving around and not hitting Rage generating abilities, the time between viability gets longer, but the game makes you move just as much. The lightning boss kept throwing lightning circles on the floor all through phase 1, and a tank that does not know how to do a fighting retreat will be fighting a losing battle. On the other hand, the Storm Serpent thingy breathes on everyone, but after getting eaten by trying to hide behind a pole, I just tried standing toe to... well, snout with it and used my FR to keep up. Way nicer than original bear long cooldown version, in a way, I have to grudgingly admit. Staying calm and plugging through the rotation, using FR when it was going to be fully used instead of pressing it when the bar filled up, and not needing to dodge a fully magic-hitting boss made for very smooth, timely rage bar management. There were only a few spots where I got into trouble, and then hitting Barkskin or Renewal caught me right up if I was at 0 rage.

It does seem like FR is designed to be used with magic heavy bosses, as long as you can dish out enough Rage income to sustain it. SD is more for hard-fast melee hitters, or high-number trash packs.

Tonight or tomorrow I'll try the same experiment with the pally and report back. :}

-T.

TL-DR: Bear tanking seems to be not so bad with new 'don't start hitting defensives as soon as they're available' strategy when hit + expertise capped.

Tielyn
07-09-2012, 04:59 PM
Also! Tried out Symbiosis for the first time.

Synced with elemental shaman: I get Lightning Shield. They get Solar Beam. Never mind that Solar Beam is a Balance talent and I wasn't having threat issues, though now I have the idea of eating some Stormchops and pretending that the Lightning Shield lets me zap small critters as a joke. :3

Synced with ret paladin: I get Consecrate. They get ... Wrath. Might be interesting for kiting if they took the talent that slows mobs by 50% with a hit, as a ranged kiting attack, though don't Ret pallies retain Holy Wrath anyway...? And it might be nice to have an AoE attack that sits somewhere I'm not, but again, see: no threat issues.

Synced with dps monk: I get the monk tank ability that gives me 10% dodge every minute. Not sure what he got - he was a pug and probably didn't notice I stole one of his skills. But that was a -very- nice skill to have - an extra semi-defensive cooldown. Didn't get to see if it stacked with SD or not, because I was too busy fighting the Sha of Doubt with said non-dispelling druid healer to really run experiments.

-T.

Tengenstein
07-09-2012, 07:36 PM
No, Ret Pallies no longer have Holy Wrath, and Holy Wrath functions totally differently to Wrath. AFAIK wrath is a casted direct damage nature spell with a 40 yard ranged and no CD, Holy Wrath is an instant cast AoE meteor (damage divided by the number of mobs hit) affect with a stun with a 20s CD. But then again the symbiotic abilities tend to fuction slightly differently to regular prot warriors get SD, but it has a 1 minute CD.

Its definetly a concern that Idiot tanks won't get jsut how important their active defences are, but then again should tanks be any different to DPS or healers don't use abilities that increase their ability to DPS or Heal. I mean would you be a decent kitty if you didn't use your finishers?

I did not actually mean to infer that you should take incarnation as a potenial source of Burst rage, I just wanted to make sure i had it modelled adequately. I made a rage calculator 3436 it should help you to math out stuff about deciding how to gear if you're go for an active defence style. Guardians are on the second page.

Tielyn
07-22-2012, 08:59 PM
Okay, latest build has this change:

Frenzied Regeneration (http://www.wowdb.com/spells/22842/#15851-15882)
now converts up to 60 Rage into up to (((AP * AP) * 186) / 10,000,000 + 47000% of AP / 10,000) health.

What this translates to, if this is the 'working as intended' version, is that Frenzied Regeneration is now pretty much useless. It -used- to start at a base heal of 32K, and with Vengance proc'd heal for 50 K and crit for 90K. Now I agree that healing for 30% of your health (mine is 262K right now) every 12 seconds or so is a bit overpowered, but there are nerfs, and there are 'why do I even have this skill' nerfs. Current version shows a tooltip of: "Heals for up to 2,279 with 60 rage." Not a typo. Hopefully a bug. Because when you get your max stack of Vengance, it heals for 21,763. In other words, 'it starts by healing 1% of my health and gets up to healing less than 10 % of my health. That's LESS than casting Healing Touch (30,838) on myself. Except I can't cast it on myself without popping out of bear form.

I didn't notice it until after I ran the same dungeon with a full five man that I ran before this patch and was able to heal through the second part of the first boss mechanic and was wondering why the healer was having trouble keeping me up from so much magic damage flying around. If it wasn't for the fact I had a monk healing me, I don't know that I could have gotten through the instance, because -he- was having trouble. I've been used to using it as a 'hm, healer's falling behind, here, I'll help top myself off', but pretty much at this point it's pointless - when outdoor, non-elite quest packs can hit me faster than I can heal myself (Leader of the Pack heals for 10K, by the way) while soloing a normal quest chain, something is Very Off.

Also, Vengance seems to have gone back to its old formula of '5% of damage as AP', because now that I'm watching it with my spellbook open as mobs hit me, it ticks up -very- slowly (and my FR heals go up very slowly as a result). After chainpulling 12 mobs across a field, I had half of a Vengance stack (11K AP bonus) so I was healing myself for 10K and change health, and then doing the 'let's fight the big bad at the end of the quest line with the name NPC, the mob was hitting me for 9.6 K every 2.5 seconds and I could only heal myself for 20K every time I got up to 60 Rage. So it was slooowly whittling me down -- and this was a solo quest mob. :|

Other observations: applying Mark of the Wild increases the value, but putting on +609 and +510 stamina trinkets does not increase the heals. However, taking off gear with stam decreases the value -- I'm not sure if I'm needing to break a threshold of some sort to increase the value or if only Pandaria gear increases your FR value. I haven't found stam trinket yet in MoP to prove this one way or another.

-Tielyn

Katarn
07-25-2012, 10:16 AM
Also, Vengance seems to have gone back to its old formula of '5% of damage as AP'
I'm confused. That has always been the formula. The only change was to give it a floor of 30% of the damage taken in the last 3 seconds. This meant that in most raid situations tanks were instantly Vengeance capped when actually tanking something.

You have to remember that beyond that floor additional Vengeance gained has to be greater than the decay in order for the value to change. For things that don't hit very hard (normal 5mans) it won't go up very fast.

That being said FR and Barrier are now both far too weak to fill their intended role: helping to deal with unavoidable/unblockable damage. It remains to be seen whether or not they are changed. Alternatively people may just start glyphing FR which would introduce a survivability hardcap to Rage generation of between 15.55 and 18.66 RPS (depending on how often swaps are).

Edit: Fixed the number because it was wrong and I was having a total brain fart.

Tengenstein
07-25-2012, 10:49 AM
12RPS is quite hard to get up to. sure you can spike it with crits but over a protracted time12rps is gonna be apin to get to. FR and SBar do feel like they've moved from being anti-caster to being excess rage burners once SD/SB are up.

Katarn
07-25-2012, 12:40 PM
12RPS is quite hard to get up to. sure you can spike it with crits but over a protracted time12rps is gonna be apin to get to. FR and SBar do feel like they've moved from being anti-caster to being excess rage burners once SD/SB are up.
Well they were always like that to begin with, and they were definitely too strong. The decision to move them to an exponential formula is the right one. The problem is they're just too darn weak right now.

Tielyn
07-25-2012, 06:53 PM
Right. What I meant was that I'm used to the current (live) route where the first thing that hits you gives you most of your Vengance stack right there, and where because I'm a monsterbear I have to give my OT a giant head start for threat by starting in cat form because even with their full Vengance stack my initial rotation sometimes pulls off of them.

(From WoWhead's comments under Vengance):

in patch 4.3 Vengeance will not ramp up slowly as now, but it will give you 33% of dmg taken on the very first hit, instead of 5% each hit like now. And it will never go below 33% of dmg taken in the last 2 secs. However, it will go slowly up from there, like it does now. So instant 33% of dmg as attackpower(maximum 10% of your hp), and it ramps up 5% each hit from there. And it will never go below 33% of dmg taken the last 2 secs as long as you are being hit.



Now, it may well have been that I was wandering around fighting weak-hitting trash mobs at the time, so the Vengance was falling off as fast as I was getting it, and I haven't been in a situation where I'm tanking with an OT yet, but this was the first time I've watched it actively tick up over time, (in the past I haven't needed to worry about threat since Wrath) and it's definitely way slow to get FR's heal component to remotely pretend to be useful.

I think, however, in a lot of ways it does put it on par with the power of the Paladin's WoG heals; part of the other thing the patch did was it removed the 50% Flash of Light crit bonus chance on the shield thingy that they have. So you can't do the trash pack trick where you kill the weakest mob and then score a 51K Flash of Light heal, and supplement it with the occasional WoG. And you can get to 60 Rage about as fast as you can get to 3 Holy Power to access your WoG (roughly 9 seconds or so if you HotR/CS, then Judge, then HotR/CS again when it's up) so once you have your full Vengance stack, it's about the same power, except the Paladin's version can be buffed by a whole bunch of ShotRs in a row. The pally version doesn't rely on Vengance; the bear's does.

I'm at work, but I'll do an apples to bears comparison as soon as possible and report back.

-Tielyn

Katarn
07-25-2012, 09:00 PM
The pally version doesn't rely on Vengance; the bear's does.
Prot Paladins gain Spellpower from AP.

Tielyn
07-27-2012, 05:23 PM
(just did the research) ...Via the revamped 'Guarded by the Light. (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=85646/guarded-by-the-light') 50% of AP as spellpower, none from other sources, which means their WoG and Flash of Light -also- relies on Vengance. No wonder the pally heals seem weaker from a standing start versus while I'm trying to heal in combat. So they are much closer than I realized....

Tielyn
08-09-2012, 12:13 AM
New patch changed the way that FR worked to have a static value based on your current Stamina, thank gods. It started when I first signed in at 29K and change, and stayed there consistently despite one to five mobs whacking on me, so Vengance AP didn't do a thing for it. I got a helmet upgrade from a quest which had additional Stam and Agility, and it made my FR break 30K heals according to the tooltip and corresponding numbers when I used it. It does not crit. I like 30K more than 2,279 from a standing start by far. :)

Ran my pally a bit as a comparison - thanks to the SHotR buff and shield block, he's noticeably less squishy than the druid - of course, this is due to the fact that you have to actively keep your SD up and the only heals you have are from FR. So the one-or-the-other dodge/heal paradigm still hurts us, while the pally has one damage shield, two heals that are based on AP-buffing spellpower (I got heals that cleared 41K on the paladin). 30K heals is enough to slow down the bleeding, at least until the healer gets to you, so if it stays there, it's... meh-okay.

The change to Vengance excites me considerably more. It means that 'monsterbear' mode is not dead. :)

-Tielyn

Tielyn
08-11-2012, 12:12 AM
Okay, less impressed in practice.

So far, Vengance scaling does not trip on my level 89 druid, because at present taking the formula max (AP-2xAgil),(Sta*2.5):

Stamina is at 12,834.
Multiply by 2.5 to get 32,085. Which is exactly what shows on the tooltip for Frenzied Regen.
Agility is at 6.757
AP is at 13,853.
AP - 2* Agil = 339. Which means in order to overcome your base Stamina FR, you have to be taking damage at a rate higher than 31K over 20 seconds.

Taking my last Ultraxion fight from Sunday on live, I took 1,691,962 damage over 204 seconds (noting that a chunk of this is the Hour of Twilight 82,656 hit that happens once every 90 seconds. Divide by 204 to get 8293 damage per second. Multiply by 20 to get 165878. Vengance is 5% of that, which is... 8293?

Which means if I'm doing the math right (feel free to correct it, of course) that FR will not scale on Ultraxion. It will get added to your AP to make you a little bit beefier same as usual, but you are stuck with the floor heals from Stamina at least at level 89 (my current level).

Problem is, you're taking 165878 damage over 20 seconds, and assuming that you get two FRs off during that time, 3 if you're lucky, you're healing 90K, leaving 50K unfaded. And while you should never be able to solo Ultraxion... you can see that it takes something hitting harder than a boss to make FR budge.

Assume the best case, 9 seconds between FR casts, over 20 seconds, you get two of them, healing for 60K. In order to overcome your ability to heal yourself, mobs need to do more than 60K / 18 seconds, or 3333/second.

I picked a fight with 6 ordinary world quest trash mobs. Problem was that those 6 mobs were hitting for 5-7K every 3 seconds or so, and there were 6 of them, which is 14,000 damage / second. Needless to say, they munched me despite pulling all my tricks in the book - Renewal only slows down how fast they can kill you, and even with Barkskin, SI, and every FR I could work, plus lots of dancing and Nature's Grasp, they did enough to take me down twice. :|

Then I came back with my paladin who was a level lower. Using a combination of the absorbs from SHtoR, judicious use of Holy Light, and the occasional WoG, all of which did more than 40K heals, from the same amount of Vengance. I survived the same gods be rotted set of mobs without resorting to bubbling, Lay On Hands, and only one cooldown at the front while I found the right rotation to keep generating Holy Power. The big difference? Paladins get to double dip their heals - you can heal from Holy Light while the buff from SHoTR is up, giving you the ability to heal while you're less hurtable, and take advantage of the SP buff from your Vengance.

If they change the scaling for the Agi part, this might be workable, but for the time being, it's not yet ready for prime time. I should not need a pocket healer to level. :|

-Tielyn

Katarn
08-12-2012, 06:27 PM
You aren't using the new Vengeance formula based on unmitigated damage.

Tielyn
08-12-2012, 11:22 PM
...and got my tail handed to me. :| Admittedly, it was bugged in DS in that I got -no- Vengance stacks, which made threat generation interesting, but besides that, not being able to keep SD up constantly (which was all I was doing, since FR was useless) meant that the healers were having serious troubles keeping me upright. Both tanks were bears, and both of us were getting our faces eaten by a boss which I handlily took down an hour later in live on Heroic. With the same character, only four levels lower.

Conversation I had in /raid while we were coming back from the wipe:
The other bear tank: "Yeah, I'm not sure what they did to bears, but it's jacked."
Me: "oh, believe me, I know. I've been talking about it over on the Tankspot forums."
The shammy: "Yeah, I have a bear/tree too. Look what I'm not playing right now."
One of the monks: I have a bear/boomy. Bear tanks are definitely not the favored tank come next expansion, sorry to say.

I really hope they fix this.

-T.

Tengenstein
08-13-2012, 01:35 AM
Tielyn, Please understand that we're not meant to be able to keep our active mititgations up 100% of the time. We're especially not meant to keep our active mitigations up 100% of the time when we have 3 tiers of gear yet to come. You should not be expecting to be able to have the perfect defence before you've even set foot in the first HC 5 man, the idea is that at the end of the expansion you should be getting close to and occasionally achieving that goal. If you could achieve that goal before the first tier of an expansion then there's not exactly alot left to do except stack stamina, which isn't really all that interesting. You have to have room to improve significantly as the expansion progresses. It's fundamental to the game that each time a new expansion comes out tank survivability resets otherwise tanks would just become invincible, the same happens with healing, suddenly they go from being able to toss heals around and nearly completely ignore mana as a concept, to having to be stingy as hell and make sure every heal counts. We saw this in wrath where Anub'arak HC went from being a face roll @80, to being a guaranteed P2 wipe @85, same with Halion as dispels which where cheap became relatively extortionate. So you know at 89 have a 1 level advantage over the boss. that gains you +1.5% dodge & miss on your CTC, and your 1.5% more likely to crit, and your armour is slightly more effective, But on the other hand at 89 as opposed to 85 you need what, double the amount of ratings to achieve the same amount of a given stat. The only stat that has actually improved as you leveled is your effective health, leveling is essentially the same as tossing out all your secondary stats and shoving stamina where they went. You've turned yourself into a giant mana sponge. WHich isn;t such a great thing when your healers are suddenly having to get to grips with OOming as something they actually do

The vengeance not stacking thing is not a bear problem. Warriors, Paladins and DKs are all suffering with it. Hopefully this bug serves to illustrate just how powerful a tool FR is, given how weak you perceive bears to be without it. Would you really expect a Holy Pally who generates only a third of a holy power per holy shock to function as well as one who didn't have a gypped generation rate? would you really expect a Melee DPS whose weapons had been bugged so their base weapon damage was only a third of normal to keep up?

TL;DR, Vengeance matters, secondary stats matter, with that in mind Bears are fine.

Tielyn
08-13-2012, 05:24 PM
Tengenstein -

What I was expecting is what has happened each of the previous expansions - once you outlevel and outgear the content, you should be able to walk through it just for kicks and practice. Each expansion has always included new wrinkles and new challenges to tanking, but with enough practice you should be able to get the hang of it -- that is the spirit of tanking, to me.

I do not expect to be invincible. :) That wouldn't be fun. I do, however, expect to be a tank, trading durability and the responsibility to gear/spec/skilltrain for taking the hits as opposed to the hitting or the healing. The notion that a dungeon four levels lower than I am which I seriously overgear (I'm at something on the order of 420ish) should kick my furry butt solely because of a mechanics change I have been actively practicing with for weeks strikes me as very wrong. We made three attempts, and in all three, we only made it past the first black blood phase on Normal Morchok before the healers were OOM on a level 86 and level 89 bear. Whereupon Morchok punted both bears, and oneshot his way through the level 85 DPS. The only thing that not having Vengance did was make it so I had to work to keep threat off of the monks. :) I don't know if it would have raised my FR up past the 31K ceiling, but it didn't, and the 31K heal wasn't cutting it.

The differences are that on live, I have 26% more dodge and a passive damage absorb shield. With my current level of mastery, my live 85 with lower level gear absorbs more damage from armor due to level scaling. I can unreliably push my dodge to about 58% dodge, which is useful only for melee swings that happen in a 6 second window. Back in Liveland, same day, heroic boss, my Vengance sat at 15.3K, so unless the capless version pushes it higher, we actually _are_ at stam stacking to get your FR up higher.

If Blizz's intention is to make any dungeon hard for you as a tank, so it's always a challenge (the 'we artificially downscaled your gear in Temple of the Jade Serpent for Beta testing made me raise an eyebrow), I accept that as a 'working as intended' and will work with it.

If this is still a 'we're tuning it still', I also accept that. But right now it's an 'ouch, damnit, stop breaking my class/spec'.

If this goes live, however, I have a problem with a dungeon that I have run for months and can do with my eyes closed right now, at 85, going from 'one night, 2.5 hours clear with breaks' to 'your bear tanks are horribly squishy and can't stand up to the same boss' overnight. Especially if they do what they did for Cata -- putting out the system changes a month before the game comes out and we can level. I remember we lost about 5 or 6 on our server due to the inability to hold trash pack threat (Swipe went from GCD to 6 second cooldown and you didn't get Thrash until level 81, but OTOH, those were the Wrath bears who never knew the trouble of 'Swipe only works on 3 mobs in front of you' issue that was fixed when it went to 360 mode.)

When four separate strangers in a PUG raid have come to the same conclusion on their own, that their raid groups are considering setting their bear tanks aside if this trend stays, then I feel I have a right to wince.

All is not lost, however. I think I may have found a tuning that works better (glyphing for FR so it doesn't heal you but buffs the heals you get) -- however, this takes away your only non-cooldown heal.

I'm a stubborn bear. This has been my character for years, and I've stuck it out through change after change, but as a raid leader I can't in good conscience field tanks that can't hold up to a boss pounding. If it means sitting myself, changing mains, or giving up tanking, I will for the good of my raid team. It just makes me sad.

-Tielyn

Banzhe
08-14-2012, 08:02 AM
I picked a fight with 6 ordinary world quest trash mobs. Problem was that those 6 mobs were hitting for 5-7K every 3 seconds or so, and there were 6 of them, which is 14,000 damage / second. Needless to say, they munched me despite pulling all my tricks in the book - Renewal only slows down how fast they can kill you, and even with Barkskin, SI, and every FR I could work, plus lots of dancing and Nature's Grasp, they did enough to take me down twice. :|

If they change the scaling for the Agi part, this might be workable, but for the time being, it's not yet ready for prime time. I should not need a pocket healer to level. :|

-Tielyn

To me it simply sounds like you have yet to discover how to play a guardian Tielyn, 6 randoms mobs won't even get close to killing you.
To name just one, MoU affects your FR same way it affects Renewal, other then that your tool-box as guardian is bigger then currently on live.

So far on beta, the only time I've died was to a silver rare monk sitting outside a cave where his spinning crane kick hits for 140k per tick, and that was only until I found the way to kill him, other then that I've tried taking on 8 - 12 random mobs in all levels to see how far you can go, which only becomes an issue in Dread Wastes where some of the mobs stuns you for a few seconds. (Didn't pay attention to how many of them there were in a cluster, so it came close at times)
Personally I feel we are in a very good place these days.

On the other hand, is this the "official" guardian thread for MoP?

Tielyn
08-18-2012, 10:42 AM
Heh. About as official as 'it's the only one, I started it because there wasn't one, and other folks keep posting to it,' but hey, it's beta. Nice ta meetcha - I'd love to hear your insights on what you're doing. :) Because if I intend to stay one of our guild's main tanks, I am more than happy to listen to what is working as opposed to what I've figured out.

I'm using Might of Ursoc, Barkskin, SI, and relying on SD whenever I think I need it (which should not be every fight for normal world trash, IMHO). I just didn't mention MoU because at least last time I checked, it doesn't affect FR, which is based on Stam, which doesn't get increased by MoU. I'm finding that now that I'm level 90, using glyphed FR with Nature's Swiftness/Healing Touch is more of a reliable lifesaver, since I can use it once a minute, and with Dream of Cenarius, sometimes it crits for 132K. Looks more like an unreliable Lay on Hands.

Try picking a fight with the mantids in the Vale of Eternal Blossoms or whatever it's called. There's a six to eight pack that pulls as a set, and those ate me two nights ago two fights out of three. Or maybe at some point if you're on Lost Isles we can meet up and talk shop.

-Tielyn

Tielyn
08-29-2012, 11:56 AM
I'm currently working on a more official guide for bear tanks. Should be ready to post in a day or two; depends on whether or not I can get my live version working to put some raid time in.

A couple of quick notes to add some value to this post:

- Vengeance does eventually win out over 2.5*Stam for FR. It just takes a meaty hit to bump it up, and lots of little sustained hits will not build it fast enough. So it does help with big spike damage in its own way in that it increases your ability to recover from the hit faster assuming you have enough Rage sitting around unused.
- I'm finding that prioritywise (not damagewise), Lacerate = FF = Thrash, in the sense that all three can trigger Mangle procs. It looks like the bleed ticks from Lacerate and Thrash don't trigger Mangle, only the attack does. This comes from testing around 2 hours on various mobs by getting Thrash and Lacerate x3 up, then hitting escape to stop attacking and only refreshing Thrash/Lacerate when they were about to fall off, and I didn't see a single Mangle proc from a bleed. So hitting whichever of those three is off cooldown (slight priority given to Lacerate since it does more damage with 3 stacks) seems to be a good rule of thumb, if you disregard threat/damage for a moment. It also seriously improved my survivability factor since I was actively fishing for Mangle procs instead of passively waiting for them to happen (which was the earlier beta version of Lacerate - the bleeds had the chance of the proc occurring @ 12% stack).

Overall, the beta experience has been fun. I'm glad I got in and got to see development at work.

-Tielyn