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Tengenstein
03-22-2012, 05:55 AM
I don't suppose anyone on the beta can calrify a few things? Are we only getting rage of our melee swings? Are HS/Cleave/Shield Block/shield barrier off the GCD? how does the rotation feel with long CDs on Rev and Dev?

fengosa
03-22-2012, 06:07 AM
I don't suppose anyone on the beta can calrify a few things? Are we only getting rage of our melee swings? Are HS/Cleave/Shield Block/shield barrier off the GCD? how does the rotation feel with long CDs on Rev and Dev?I'm not in beta so I can't confirm first hand but I think shield slam generates 20 rage and double that on SnB procs. I believe SS, melee and shouts are the only way we can generate rage.

Libellus
03-22-2012, 06:56 AM
My understanding is that with the diminishing usefulness of Prot Warriors over time, in MoP they will be an equippable item for Monks and DKs.

fengosa
03-22-2012, 07:21 AM
My understanding is that with the diminishing usefulness of Prot Warriors over time, in MoP they will be an equippable item for Monks and DKs. Actually if MoP truly is the spiritual successor to classic WoW than warriors better be OP to no end.

Pagezero
03-22-2012, 10:11 AM
I only got on to play around for about 15 minutes but I did notice Devastate has no CD and cost no rage, I don't know if it was reverted back or just hasn't been changed. Shield Slam is 6 sec CD and I think it was 20 rage, Revenge was 9 sec CD.

Something has changed with dodge, I only had like 7.5% dodge, down from like 15%. I noticed I had 60% block, down from 63%, not sure if it's a small DR at 85 or they changed the rating.

fengosa
03-22-2012, 10:36 AM
Since devastate is neutral from a rage stand point I can understand why there's no need for a CD. It doesn't affect survivability or tank balance in general so having it as a filler ability is a nice quality of life change for warriors. I'm hoping that's the reasoning behind the change. If it still applies the rend effect you wouldn't want to spam it but the upfront damage is better than nothing.

Tengenstein
03-22-2012, 10:53 AM
We are iterating a lot on tank rotations right now. We want rage (and all tank resources) to be something players actually use for mitigation, because we think that will be more fun than having a resource that gets ignored. Under this model, Protection warriors canít have many DPS abilities that cost rage, because rage will be too valuable for Shield Block and Shield Barrier on fights where survival is a challenge. An ability with no resource cost needs some kind of cooldown or it will just be macroíed and / or spammed, which isnít a lot of fun.

Prot warriors have a lot of abilities to manage: Shield Slam, Revenge, Devastate, Thunder Clap, Shield Block and so on, as well as several emergency buttons to handle situations such as streaming adds. Weíre okay with melee specs having an occasional free GCD, as long as it doesnít happen with frustrating regularity.

Or at least at one point they felt that way. I like the filler role it currently has and hope it's a case of them rethinking their postion rather than just [NYI]

Kazeyonoma
03-22-2012, 11:04 AM
DONT TOUCH MY SPAMMY MC SPAMMY NESS =(

it's why i love my warrior =(

fengosa
03-22-2012, 11:29 AM
Or at least at one point they felt that way. I like the filler role it currently has and hope it's a case of them rethinking their postion rather than just [NYI] I don't think macros are an issue. Dev looks like its at the bottom of the priority list and shockwave/stormbolt have situational uses. Maybe strictly on a boss fight you could macro those in but I wouldn't want to on trash or in pvp.

Tengenstein
03-22-2012, 03:21 PM
yeah i don't get it either, i wast my fish fish truck, even if dev is no longer a fish

Auben
03-23-2012, 02:25 AM
I don't suppose anyone on the beta can clarify a few things? Are we only getting rage of our melee swings?
Shield Slam generates 10 rage, 15 in total with a sword & board proc. It seems that we no longer get rage from taking damage, just from SS, charge, battle/commanding shout, and melee swings. The rage from melee swings is increased by 25% when enraged, which happens when you critically hit or critically block, use Beserker Rage, or through talents like the new Vigilance.

However, virtually nothing costs rage. Revenge, Thunderclap, most shouts and cooldowns/talents are free. Apart from Shield Block/Barrier and Heroic Strike/Cleave, the only things costing rage are slows like Hamstring and Piercing Howl, Shattering Throw and Execute.


Are HS/Cleave/Shield Block/shield barrier off the GCD? how does the rotation feel with long CDs on Rev and Dev?
Yes all four of those are off the GCD. Shield Block and Barrier are not exclusive, either, you can have both up at the same time for a few seconds if you have the rage.

As mentioned by Pagezero Dev has no cooldown, so you can still spam that as filler. It feels a bit like the no-Revenge rotation due to the longer cooldown, but I'll need more time to get a proper feel for it. With the steadier, slower, rage income and keeping Shield Block/Barrier up, I haven't found myself using Heroic Strike/Cleave much. Maybe these get more use when enraged, or when you're offtanking.

If you aren't expecting magic damage in a fight, you can macro Shield Block into dev/revenge/ss. It works, and is an easy way to get decent uptime, but it feels lame and may not be what they intend for us. On the other hand, hitting shield block every 6 seconds is a throwback to the old days, so maybe they are happy for it to be automatic most of the time... with the occasional moment where you pool rage for an incoming burst of magic damage.

Tengenstein
03-25-2012, 09:30 AM
Okay i've just noticed the 9 second ICD on TfB and the 6 second CD on Motal Strike. This has me thinking Blizz are being really cheap with warriros this xpac, or want to make warrior tanking extremely easy to get into if you already have a DPS warrior.

Mortal strike/Shield slam > rage builder
Overpower/Revenge > cheapest ability
Colossus Smash/Thunderclap> Raid Debuff
Slam/Devastate > filler of spammy goodness
HS & Cleave/Shield barrier & shield block > rage dumps

Auben
03-31-2012, 06:23 PM
From http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/4253971713?page=2#27

We wanted to clarify a little the direction we are trying to go with Protection warriors and ultimately all tanks.

You generate rage through auto attacks. You also have some sources of rage more under your control, such as shouts, Charge, and in particular Shield Slam (the same is true of MS or BT if you are Arms or Fury). You no longer generate rage from taking damage, because we found that it basically meant Prot warriors always had infinite rage, so the resource wasn't relevant to gameplay. We think classes are more fun and interesting when they have to manage, even to a small extent, some resource.

For Protection, we expect you to spend most of your rage on Shield Block. Shield Block is not an emergency button. It generally won't save your life. But this is a good thing. Emergency buttons with resource costs aren't reliable. On the other hand using Shield Block (or Shield Barrier for magic damage) will make a difference over the course of a fight. It will help your healers out. It will slightly blunt spikes. Shield Block has no cool down, allowing you to use it more frequently when you have lots of rage, but also letting you play a little with when you use it. If you know a big hit is coming soon, you can delay the block for a few seconds. Otherwise, you can use it, knowing you'll have rage soon for another one.

One of the changes for old time Prot warriors is getting used to not spamming Heroic Strike. Think of HS (and Cleave) as an alternative to Shield Block for times when you don't need to worry about blocking, such as when you are soloing, off-tanking or doing easy content. If you use too many Heroic Strikes, you won't have rage for Shield Block as well. Your other attacks, Devastate, Revenge, Shield Slam and Thunder Clap, should fill in most of the holes in your rotation and should be sufficient for holding threat without HS spam.

As I mentioned recently, Prot warrior damage is probably 50% of where it needs to be. When we have that adjusted, your threat will be higher and those Shield Slam and Revenge hits in particular should feel meatier.

If you are a Guardian Druid, there are a lot of analogues. Notice what costs rage, and don't spend it on the wrong things. If you are a Prot paladin, spend your Holy Power mostly on Shield of the Righteous (in this case for damage and mitigation). If you are a Blood DK, your rotation isn't that different than it is on live.

We will ultimately balance all of the tanks around their suite of survival mechanics. Just be aware that we balance based on typical group situations and not how long a tank can go without getting a heal. If a tank can be two shot by a boss (assuming appropriate gear and skill), it's a design problem. If a tank is getting four or five shot, it's a healer problem.

P.S. Standard caveat that our design intent here is to make things more fun overall, not to nerf anybody.

Gregasaurous
04-02-2012, 01:30 AM
Personaly, i think this will be very interesting. I do hope that blizzard does this right though. Because if we are spending our resources on surviving instead of for example, HS spam, and they don't compensate enough for that, then the DK (who's mechanics are changing minimally from present if i read correctly) will become even more overpowered then they are now (ROFLDEATHSTRIKE), simply because they put out high damage. Because as we all know, in hardcore progression, high damage output from everyone is important. It can go the other way though, if they overcompensate on any of the classes receiving changes, then that class will become preferred. And this is assuming that all classes get close to equal survivability, but since they mentioned this was part of the goal, i'm not to worried about it.

Another possible balance problem that will come into play is competency of healers. If you have a healer that is somehow just REALLY good, then you might not have to work on survivability as much as the average tank, and you put out more damage. SO, really, after all of Blizzards best intentions, that DPS gear-check fight might just come down to how good the healers are, buecause if they heal better, the Tanks can put out more damage.

I apologize for the slight off-topicness of this as it isn't really going towards clarifying anything, rather raising more questions. Though i think it does pertain to warriors specifically. Is there a chance we might take all of this and say: "That's cute blizz, oi, H-pally, hope you have enough spirit to spam big ones on me" simply for the DPS output on progression fights?

Tengenstein
04-02-2012, 02:41 AM
Another possible balance problem that will come into play is competency of healers. If you have a healer that is somehow just REALLY good, then you might not have to work on survivability as much as the average tank, and you put out more damage. SO, really, after all of Blizzards best intentions, that DPS gear-check fight might just come down to how good the healers are, buecause if they heal better, the Tanks can put out more damage.

I apologize for the slight off-topicness of this as it isn't really going towards clarifying anything, rather raising more questions. Though i think it does pertain to warriors specifically. Is there a chance we might take all of this and say: "That's cute blizz, oi, H-pally, hope you have enough spirit to spam big ones on me" simply for the DPS output on progression fights?

This isn't exactly something new though. Alyz was very much a case of put a DPS flask up, and some dps gear when it first hit, Ultraxion also allows warriors to pretty much deck themselves out in full arms gear, up until the threat change it wan't uncommon to don DPS gear for 5 mans, and HoT ones are so easy on the tank you're healer probably won't even notice if they do. i'm not really sure it;s interesting that this makes us choose between doing a little extra damage (lets not kid ourselves; the age of HS Spam is over) or taking a little bit less, it basically a slightly more involved variation on whether we put demo shout up or not, or dip ourselves in the fire or not.

Libellus
04-02-2012, 04:47 AM
So, rage permitting, we're going to be popping Shield Block as often as possible providing its relevant to do so?

This seems very reminiscent of TBC, which is no bad thing to my mind. I enjoyed using Shield Block actively in TBC.

Gregasaurous
04-02-2012, 07:59 AM
This isn't exactly something new though. Alyz was very much a case of put a DPS flask up, and some dps gear when it first hit, Ultraxion also allows warriors to pretty much deck themselves out in full arms gear, up until the threat change it wan't uncommon to don DPS gear for 5 mans, and HoT ones are so easy on the tank you're healer probably won't even notice if they do. i'm not really sure it;s interesting that this makes us choose between doing a little extra damage (lets not kid ourselves; the age of HS Spam is over) or taking a little bit less, it basically a slightly more involved variation on whether we put demo shout up or not, or dip ourselves in the fire or not.

I think it's a little more than that, but i guess we'll see how it pans out.

Blackcurrant
04-02-2012, 12:50 PM
I really like the spammy ability style of the protection warrior. And with that having different rotations depending on single target, aoe, and perhaps one could say less damage taken (vanilla and tbc shield block).

When the threatgame got lost it felt like a big deal of what differented between good tanks and bad tanks went away with it. Say all those tanks that went that route because they could never top the damage meters as dps, so not getting that receipt felt good (anecdotal reference here but i imagine it could be true to others).

Especially in TBC i felt it really made a huge difference having a prot warrior with high threat compared to one that throttled the raid dps. In T11 hc we noticed that to some extent as well.

When the topic of active mitigation came as a light in the tank darkness i hoped the spammy rotations could come back. Like one could "weave" different rotations which generated a better resistance versus incoming damage. So it would be the same very active threat tank of TBC but weaving protection instead of threat.

Say mastery gave more block, and the better rotation the better the block worked, increasing in effectivity. Not to some crazy extent of course, but so it mattered and could be one trademark of a GOOD tank.

Keeping the playstyle but for a different purpose. (mitigation instead of threat)


The protection warrior described here is not really what i hoped for tho?

Emerich
04-03-2012, 03:49 AM
I never tanked raids before Cata so I don't have any sense of what the "threat game" was like, but having tanked all Cata raid encounters, the control over my own survivability that I enjoyed as a DK tank made it the most fun to play for me. Monitoring my damage intake and external healing received and seeing how this changed as I learned the fights was really satisfying. The warrior on the other hand felt by far the most passive, and through that the most frustrating.

I do worry a bit over that the rage resource system in its current form feels much less involved than that of DKs and Paladins. I don't have beta access so I can't try it myself, but I imagine there being a lot less to think about when you only have one resource to juggle. Can any beta-able person with multiple tanks give some insight about how the different tank "mitigation rotations" feel?

Airowird
04-03-2012, 08:22 AM
Right now, Shield Block feels like the WotLK HS. If you macro it to your entire bar, you'll do fine 97% of the time and you still won't totally suck the other 3%. It has no direct relation to your abilities (unlike Paladins with ShotR) and it's so RNG based it doesn't actually feel like you are doing something special. The short amount I've been using it, I always ended up with the thought of "Did my SB just cause a Block or was it going to happen anyway?" Not the greatest feeling you should have when 'actively mitigating' damage.

DKs haven't changed, so I suspect they feel just as powerful as before, Druid one I just can't help but look at and compare it to the 2min CD Shield Wall I've been using for years and weep a bit on the inside. Overall I think the active mitigation stuff still needs a lot of work, hopefully they'll manage to come up with some interesting stuff I might actually look forward to.

truculent
04-03-2012, 08:24 AM
Ive played beta for a few hours over the weekend. prot warriors were exceptionally boring.

Blackcurrant
04-03-2012, 12:57 PM
What does active mitigation seem to be for prot warriors?

It must be a new concept for the rotation does it not?

It can't be the use of long cooldowns (shield wall, last stand) that we already have and it can't be the use of short cooldowns (shield block, shield barrier).

What seems to be changed at this point is only the rage mechanics and those are the similar for all warrior specs, be it dps or tank.

Conclusion should be that the active mitigation model that was spoken about when threat got obsolete is for warriors not yet implemented?

Pagezero
04-03-2012, 01:26 PM
It really means we no longer get Rage from being hit and if you want Rage you need to be attacking and actually hitting the target, right now there are two things you can do with that Rage, use Shield Block/Shield Block or HS/Cleave.

The good part of it is hit and exp will now be useful, some might not think this is good, but personally I like it, the bad part is really not anything to do with active mitigation, it's really that most think Shield Block is not very interesting or fun and generally boring, it needs to do more and make us really want to use it. Add an a heal to it, add a shield spike effect while active, something, anything.

Tengenstein
04-03-2012, 01:28 PM
Its the using rage for short term defensive CDs Shield Block and Shield Barrier. be impressed yah!

darus
04-03-2012, 05:24 PM
From a gameplay point of view it doesnt feel at all as interesting as blizzard wanted it to be, they just put heroic strike out of the rotation in place for shield block/shield barrier. From a gearing point of view hit and expertise will have excessive value since you rely on hitting the target for rage, thats defenitley one thing that theyve done right.

Blackcurrant
04-04-2012, 04:41 AM
Thanks for the answers.

I agree that working towards making hit and expertise important for tanks definitively makes gearing more interesting. Also making rage management more important can be interesting. Leaving the active mitigation model as ready after those two changes does not feel totally satisfying compared to what i read into the changes last autumn. It's like the finishing touch after this build up is missing.

As i wrote a couple of posts up a more dynamic mitigation (like former threat rotations now instead building mitigation) would solve the same problems as the beta changes done so far and on top of that making the gameplay more mirror what active mitigation could be. Also it would make it possible to give an unique model for one tank, something i think in the best of worlds all tanks should have.

As been mentioned i neither think it would be a problem if different tanks would end up being slightly easier or harder to play.

Airowird
04-04-2012, 05:48 AM
For me the problem with the Warrior (and Druid) mitigation models is that they are exactly like the tBC Shield Block model.
It is still a button you have to press to reduce damage, but it has no direct relation to your rotation.
A DK or Paladin gains a mitigation buff from using an offensive ability. How well they do their rotation relates directly into how often they can use that ability and thus how well they manage their damage reduction buff.
For example, on a boss with a 3s cast Big Breath the DK or Paladin must make the choice of not using their offensive ability during the first 2.9s of that cast because they're not taking damage anyway, so instead they might fill up that time with more Rune Strikes or another Crusader Strike to start pooling some resource a bit more. A Warrior or Druid has no such mechanic. Their damage output is always the same, regardless of bosses swinging or not, their defensive ability might be limited to their rotation, but it's not directly linked to it. If you could macro your rotation on a Warrior or Druid, then you are set for any given boss fight and the only thing you'ld have to do is press that one ability at the correct moments. Your resource income is somewhat predictable, so you have a pretty decent idea of the maximum of uptime of your buff and the only thing left to do is sliding the gaps around a bit to maximize damage reduction (or if you don't need more, add in some extra damage from HS/Maul). This is (in my eyes) in no way interesting and rather looks like having to do two separate rotations each doing one job, than doing a single rotation that does two jobs.

It is similar to how healing works. A tank has a certain amount of damage reduction and his health goes down. A healer tries to fill up that bar with his heals, but the healer has no real influence on the damage reduction of the tank, and neither has the tank a whole lot of control over the amount of incoming heals. The two jobs are linked by a common resource (namely the tank's HP), but the jobs themselves have no direct link to eachother.

Tengenstein
04-04-2012, 05:49 AM
I don't really think Rage management is particularly fun or interesting. its going to be much more similar to playing an arms warrior now, you go through your standard rotation and if you manage to get up to a threshold you dump.Prot seems to be going backwards. As it stand now we have a fairly fun fish for procs, keep up a dot and 2 defensive debuffs and a defensive buff whilst making sure not to cap rage and weave in our trucks. in Beta our rotation is SS>Rev>Stormbolt>SW>Dev and press TC every 30 seconds. Yeah we still have to worry about SnB procs but compared to now where we get maybe 15 a minute, we're going to get maybe 4 and half of them will have no appreciable change in our rotation as every other Rev immediately precedes an SS anyway. Prot;s always been a twitchy spec with a large toolbox of abilities, now its not so much, we don't have to pay attention to our procs anywhere near as much, and as a consequence we don't need to worry about weaving trucks in at the right time. Rage is no longer a frantic resource we need to prevent capping or Starving low on. and our toolbox is now half empty.

The changes seem incredibly boring from a play style PoV. I know Prot had alot of complaints that it had a lot of buttons and you needed to be a concert pianist to hit all of them at the right time, but it was fun, and alot more engaging that what we have here, the equivalent of playing the triangle.

Airowird
04-04-2012, 07:13 AM
You forgot to mention that if you take Avatar & Bloodbath/Deadly Calm all you do is SS>Rev>TC(<5s left)>Dev.
For one, I would find the system entirely more interesting to play with if instead of Rev, Dev was the SnB proc'er. Suddenly you're faced with the challenge of "Do I Rev after SS for damage or Dev for the chance on extra Rage=SB uptime?"
Perhaps Revenge could be changed into a) not being a proc and b) be the combined damage and SB tool.
Then you'ld have a choice of: Rev>SS>Dev, SS>Rev>Dev, SS>Dev>Rev or some other intricate balance between them. Perhaps TC and/or IV could be doing damage somewhere in between Dev & Rev? It would certainly make the limited amount of buttons interesting choices, without pushing you towards hotbars full of situational abilities.


PS: Am I the only person that finds Revenge STILL being an avoidance-based proc archaic and outdated? I mean, with the drop in avoidance & block it'll be completely random and unreliable, especially while gearing up. Even Rune Strike is now guaranteed for DKs in Blood Presence, surely Revenge could get the same treatment?

Tengenstein
04-04-2012, 07:42 AM
Indeed it is out dated, In Wrath it was a bit OP when an arms warrior went def stance and landed a really heavy 2 handed Revenge. now its not really a problem since the AP scaling for tank abilities is much lower, and next expac well, only Prot will have access to revenge. and the chance of us not getting a dodge/block/parry over 9 seconds is redundant, and harms us when we're not tanking as it means less Snb procs (none) which means less shield slams, which means less enrages which means less rage, which may be why they want to do it, so when we've handed the boss other to the co-tank we don't start dumping with HS rather than SB. which makes less sense since the other tanks don't have rotational abilities denied when they're not tanking. DO bears ahve som sort of less rage when not tanking maechanic, or did warriors get screwed. again.

Bigbad
04-07-2012, 03:06 AM
These new changes make me think they're on right track, but really did they make it intentionally bad at the start to make us more excited for the real thing?
- Revenge 6 sec cd,
- devastate proccing ultimatum for a free HS,
- rallying cry not sharing a cd with last stand anymore,
- shieldblock giving guaranteed blocks for the 6 sec duration instead of just 1 block.

Ultimatum procs are really needed to keep things interesting and shieldblock change is nice just wondering what the guaranteed blocks will do with the value of mastery/avoidance.

Airowird
04-07-2012, 03:39 AM
I don't think they intentionally made it bad so they can buff it later, I think they were just too cautious (although a decent math review of the system could tell you it's flawed).

I like how the new stuff works out and I understand why they don't make the Paladin buff guaranteed (would devalue Mastery), but DK Mastery is still too powerful without DR on it.
I do like the extra bonus procs of Ultimatum, although they didn't resolve any issues with Revenge:
With it's CD being the same as SS, you'll start out with Rev just after SS, but as soon as you get an SnB proc, you will always use Revenge before SS, unless it's not available. If it's not available enough to make the CD the priority limiter, than there is an issue (especially with gearing up = more procs). If the CD is what it's all about, why still need the proc? And if you Rev every time on CD, isn't SnB just "Revenge has a chance to grant you 5 Rage"?
Imho, we are better off with the 9s CD, bigger damage output and not being a proc than what they want to do now.

Bigbad
04-07-2012, 04:02 AM
Even with the 6 sec cd you'll always want to use revenge after shieldslam, you will delay it occasionally with 3 secs (half a revenge or less then 2,5 rage) but always gain half a shieldslam (5 rage) when it procs. This is just from a rage perspective not sure about the difference between revenge & shieldslam damage if it's a dps increase or not.

Airowird
04-08-2012, 02:00 AM
That's the thing though, you're postponing Rev (and use Dev instead) so that the next time you have an SnB proc you actually get the CD shortening from it. According to MMO-C, Rev has higher damage (I assume that's base, don't know about AP scaling atm), so as long as Rev does more damage (especially if you have adds to tank) waiting 3s with Rev to gain 3s from SS is a DPS loss.

Rage math:
If you always Rev on CD, you get an average time between SnB procs of 10s, in which time you do exactly 1.6667 SS. Total Rage gain is then 5 + 1.6667*10 = 21.667 Rage over 10s = 2.16667 RPS.
If you wait 9s after SnB procs to use Revenge again, you will get an average proc time of 13s (6s/60% proc chance +3s delay), which means 2.6667 SS during that time (1 + 10/6), total Rage gain of 5 + 2.6667*10 = 31.667 over 13s = 2.4359 RPS
That's a 12.43% increase in Rage gained from your rotation, or an extra SB every 3min43s or an extra Heroic Strike every 1min51s

The question will remain, will the damage be worth it? Won't this make the rotation very much like the old WotLK one? (Snb>SS>Rev>Dev>CD) And more importantly, isn't this one of those counter-intuitive-but-theoretically-better things starting players won't learn until they visit a theory crafting site?

Bigbad
04-08-2012, 02:22 AM
I thought about the dps, when you delay revenge you replace a revenge with a devastate but when SnB procs you replace a devastate with a shieldslam. So as long as shieldslam does more damage then revenge its a dps increase.

Tengenstein
04-08-2012, 08:43 AM
I don't think that DPS will really matter. Shieldblock uptime is what we're gonna be worrying about, and thats going to be about squeezing the most rage out of our rotation, so any trucks that have rage costs aren't really going to worth using until we're approaching 100% SB uptimes and can spare the rage. Does Stormbolt/Heroic throw act as they do now on live and delay or swing time? if so we can throw those trucks out, Shockwave might be rage neutral, but its alternative, Avatar is a rage gain, which leaves us pretty much much with Victory Rush/Impending Victory which we should be timing to our healthpools, not rotation.

So while yes our max DPS is almost certainly counter intuitive fish fish truck, approaching the rotation from a max DPS standpoint is also counter intuitive,

Kazeyonoma
04-09-2012, 10:58 AM
yeah, i tried tanking a bit on MoP this weekend and it's felt weird compared to the running model of mash buttons until you bleed to edge out every bit of dps. I'm still toying with the rotation, but with shield block uptime being crucial and impending victory being a decent and frequent life CD, it found myself just watching my own survivability more than anything else.

Dreadski
04-16-2012, 07:10 AM
I'm having major issues holding aggro while tanking mop randoms at 85, so bad that I reforged my t13 to hit/expertise to be closer to the caps. I'm using everything at my disposal including foregoing shield block for HS sometimes. Still managing to keep taunt on CD. Anyone else experiencing this?

Dreadski
04-18-2012, 08:27 AM
I'm having major issues holding aggro while tanking mop randoms at 85, so bad that I reforged my t13 to hit/expertise to be closer to the caps. I'm using everything at my disposal including foregoing shield block for HS sometimes. Still managing to keep taunt on CD. Anyone else experiencing this?

So it turns out after a reset they take you out of all stances, found the problem.

Bigbad
04-18-2012, 08:48 AM
What glyphs were you using Dreador? I had a quick look at the beta and was surprised by the amount of major glyphs. You got one for shieldslam, revenge, devastate(not implemented yet), cleave, thunderclap, heroic leap, speedboost while enraged which all seem usefull. Specially the incite glyph for devastate will be powerful giving ~50% uptime on enrage.

Travelsize
04-19-2012, 12:26 PM
The glyph thing is probably finally being done right. The glyphs are, for the most part 1: interesting and 2: there's way more than three for each spec. I think a lot of the idea behind the old talent tress (mainly the little talents that "tune" your character, an extra proc here, a lowered cooldown there, a bit of extra damage here) are being done much better as glyphs.

The minor glyphs are kind of awesome, but I don't think the one that is supposed to make it look like you're on fire when enraged is working properly yet. Also, the thunderstruck glyph is applying the extra damage on the tooltip (and I think on mobs) without extending the cooldown. Since it's a 50% damage increase, the thunderstruck glyph might be a real winner- on single targets you're just hitting it to keep the damage debuff up anyways, so you might as well get more damage out of that button, and on aoe you're getting the same theoretical dps over time, better snap aggro (not that that's a worry unless they make threat an issue again), and you're opening extra gcds to eke out more shield slams and get more rage to dump into sb/cleave/hs.

I figured since our goal is maximizing sb uptime for survivability, heavy repurcussions glyph probably isn't a bad idea either. I want to try the incite glyph out, but it wasn't on the glyph vendor and not in the ah so sadness for now. I'm running with the victory rush glyph (helll yes a self heal I can control on a short cd) instead.

As long as heroic strike has enough damage output to be relevant, the "where do I spend my rage" question has the potential to be interesting. This is especially true in last 20% burn phases, where the boss is usually dealing extra damage BUT execute is now usable in any stance and costs 30 rage. Someone's going to have to math it out at 90, but if you can afford the survivability hit you could help the raid out dropping sb for heoric strike/execute spam and add a non-trivial amount of damage, especially during hero/lust.

Incidentally, haste seems like it's could be kind of awesome. Not necessarily something you'll want as a prot warrior, but the raid-wide extra sources of haste potentially go from "meh" to "hey extra damage or 100% SB uptime!"

Also, I can see some potentially insane damage output from prot warriors in 5 mans running with offset dps haste pieces.

Also, resource management seems pretty complex now, between managing shield block and hs/cleave/execute WHILE managing free procs from dev, figuring out whether or not to delay revenge for right after a ss, and using impending victory (and keeping the thunderclap debuff up on bosses).

Of course, if the damage gain or survivability increase from proper rage usage isn't significant enough to be noticed, prot warriors are going to be boring as hell.

Gregasaurous
04-19-2012, 03:49 PM
Okay, so a question for you actively testing in Beta regarding the newest implementation of Shield Block mechanics, and how this will effect our stat priorities. So as i understand it Shield block now guarantees all attacks not avoided will be blocked for it's 6 sec duration. So if we are able to get 100% SB up-time or even close (possible? situational? nerf-bat inc?) mastery just became useless? If this is the case, then all our gear will be reforged avoidance (after hit/exp caps?), leaving nothing but stamina for our gems?

Dreadski
04-19-2012, 04:58 PM
Okay, so a question for you actively testing in Beta regarding the newest implementation of Shield Block mechanics, and how this will effect our stat priorities. So as i understand it Shield block now guarantees all attacks not avoided will be blocked for it's 6 sec duration. So if we are able to get 100% SB up-time or even close (possible? situational? nerf-bat inc?) mastery just became useless? If this is the case, then all our gear will be reforged avoidance (after hit/exp caps?), leaving nothing but stamina for our gems?

I'm no theorycrafter but that's what it's looking like. What a wasted stat eh?

Takethecake
04-19-2012, 05:43 PM
During shield block, mastery contributes to crit block chance. Crit block has a smaller chance but scales at the same rate pre DR so mastery will be far from useless. If it's worth stacking I'm sure someone will figure out... I'm sure I'll mess with some spread sheets once I'm sure they changes are more concrete.

Tengenstein
04-19-2012, 06:53 PM
Sorry if this is nit picky, Is it a case that Crit block doesn't have DRs or that it has a different DR from block? and when you say crit block has a smaller chance is it because like now wie only crit block from mastery, but we get 5%block for having a shield and 15% block for being prot and then whatever else we get from mastery?

Also Greg, who says we're gona get anywhere near 100% uptime on shield block? even assuming we can generate the rage for it, sometimes were gonna be using Shield Barrier instead for magic damage reductions. Has anyone on beta got some uptime numbers for shieldblock? or idea of how much rage per swing we generate? on live it works out to be around 6.5 rps( and in mop thats only guaranteed if we are hit & expertise capped), Airowird worked out that we;d generate about 2.4 rps from our rotation (though this was with the 9s Rev CD), which is 8.9 rps, snot enough for the 10rps we need for 100% SB uptime, assuming you clip it by an infinitely small amount. Also keep in mind we need to keep Weakened Blows up so are gonna need to find another 20 rage every 30 seconds for that. i hope we get lucky with our enrage uptimes.

Pagezero
04-19-2012, 09:18 PM
If you can trust the tooltip Crit Block has the same DR as block, also on the beta base block has changed from 5% to 3%. Also the base 8 Mastery from Prot spec also has DR on Block.

With a 2.6 speed weapon we get 13 rage per swing, rage from just SS and white swings we would get 62 rage in 10.4 sec, that puts is at about a 60% uptime.

JainZar
04-20-2012, 06:13 AM
Not sure that my maths is in any way correct:

Using the Glyph of Incite and Ultimatum procs to keep a reasonable uptime on Enrage, you'd need 3 white swings and a Shield Slam to get 58 rage. With a 2.6 speed weapon, that's 7.8 seconds; with the 10% melee haste buff, it's 7.02; another 13% from gear would give 5.92 seconds? Battle Shout gives 20 rage, which gives you the extra you need each minute for 100% uptime?

S'n'B procs give another 15 rage if you delay Revenge, with the potential cost of 2 GCDs that can't be used to proc Ultimatum (but is still a net gain each cycle).

Would it be worth giving up critical blocks to have a higher Shield Block uptime by reforging Mastery to Haste (after the hit and expertise caps, obviously)?

Tengenstein
04-20-2012, 09:21 AM
Your calculating Haste incorrectly there, its only a minor thing but 10% haste is does not translate into your sing times being 90% of the unhasted value. new swing time = old swing time/(1+(haste%))*(1+other haste effects) . Essentially 2.6/1.13*1.1 so it swill take 7.09 recurring seconds. this means you need around 18.5% to get your swing down below 2 seconds needed. 18.5% haste is a lot of haste, esecially as we'd need to be hit and expertise capped already. okay maybe not so minor now i look at it.

Edit: so looking at rage generation and enrage uptime being crucual to SB uptime, some of our talent choices seem kinda bleh. Impending Victory for example is another rage dump so whilst its healing may be great but if the choice is between "either use IV now and sacrifice some SB uptime & Damage" or "a very powerful HoT ever minute" or "a passive proc HoT". that talents like Impending Victory are jsut straight up nub traps. The fourth tier is even worst, dragon roar is a straight up enrage if it hits, shockwave costs 20 rage. If you're not at 100% shieldblock or enrage uptime , why would you choose an ability that didn't generate rage over one that required it? the last tier is the same Avatar just looks awesome because of the 50% increased rage gen, I love the idea of stormbolt, but 50% rage for 11% of the time is pretty nice defensively, especially if it lets me get shield barrier up without dropping SB uptime.

Geach
04-20-2012, 11:36 AM
The fourth tier is even worst, dragon roar is a straight up enrage if it hits, shockwave costs 20 rage.

Last time I checked shockwave doesn't have a cost rage in mop.

Dreadski
04-20-2012, 01:01 PM
Last time I checked shockwave doesn't have a cost rage in mop.

Correct, and dragon roar, despite the tooltip, never crits. In fact almost nothing crits right now. Unless you pop reck of course.

Tengenstein
04-20-2012, 01:52 PM
This is what i get for going off wowhead. at least i'm pleasantly wrong about shockwave.

Takethecake
04-20-2012, 02:11 PM
Sorry if this is nit picky, Is it a case that Crit block doesn't have DRs or that it has a different DR from block? and when you say crit block has a smaller chance is it because like now wie only crit block from mastery, but we get 5%block for having a shield and 15% block for being prot and then whatever else we get from mastery?

Yeah I meant simply that the base chance to crit block is lower and that a point of mastery increases both block and crit block by the same amount.

Dreadski
04-20-2012, 02:44 PM
This is what i get for going off wowhead. at least i'm pleasantly wrong about shockwave.

Yeah, in my opinion it makes it a good tier. Tossup between guaranteed crit every minute aka enrage aka more rage, vs free DPS truck with a 20 second cd. Either one is good for its own reasons. For me, if dragon roar makes it to live as the tooltip is, I'll use that for most situations simply because of the way our rage is now. It's actually tough to keep shield block or barrier up, there's always going to be a 2 or 3 second downtime. Having Avatar to go along with it would be nice as well. This has the makings to be a somewhat cool class again in my book.

I'm bored on live even though there's only one dungeon on beta right now.

kopcap
04-20-2012, 09:14 PM
I have not had a chance to get my hands on beta yet, but my main concern is that no matter how you approach it, you will need exp hard cap to make "100% uptime on SB" work. Combined with hit cap, its an awful lot of itemization points. That perhaps could be better spent on something else, while still retaining ability to pool rage for an incoming burst. Anyway, imo its too early to call anything until we see an open beta, encounter designs and our trinket choices.

Another concern is that this model may inadvertently force progression tanks to constantly swap weapons and elixirs on a fly, ie exp set for rage pooling and SB uptime followed by def set for a burst, then back again.

Airowird
04-21-2012, 01:45 AM
Oh, I do miss the good ol' days of different tanking sets!
Hell, I even miss my healing sets on my Shaman, gearing for a fight was half the strategy!

kopcap
04-21-2012, 04:47 AM
I am not talking about gearing for a fight. I am talking about hot swaps for subphases, ie interrupt set for prototypes on Nef or hit set for whelps on Sin.

Dreadski
04-21-2012, 11:00 AM
Unless something changes mechanically, I don't believe true 100% uptime will be achievable even with capped stats. Too many gcds and procs.

This is anecdotal of course.

Tengenstein
04-21-2012, 11:14 AM
GCDs and procs?

Dreadski
04-21-2012, 11:51 AM
Well, CDs not GCDs. And sword and board/enrage.

Tengenstein
04-21-2012, 01:38 PM
I still don't understand you reasoning.

Airowird
04-21-2012, 03:06 PM
100% uptime = 60 Rage per 6s or 10 RPS

Hit/Exp capped white swings: 5 RPS
SS + SnB procs: 2.667 RPS
Enrage up: 1.25 RPS
Shout: 0.333 RPS
That's already 9.25 RPS right there, good for SB every <6.5s

Tengenstein
04-21-2012, 08:21 PM
and the 0.667 RPS needed for weakened blows?

Gregasaurous
04-21-2012, 09:26 PM
100% uptime = 60 Rage per 6s or 10 RPS

Hit/Exp capped white swings: 5 RPS
SS + SnB procs: 2.667 RPS
Enrage up: 1.25 RPS
Shout: 0.333 RPS
That's already 9.25 RPS right there, good for SB every <6.5s

Can you clarify "Enrage up: 1.25 RPS"? Is this the assumed calculation based on abilities that enrage us and their CD's or does it include passive enrage mechanics. (which from what i hear so far passive enrages are few and fare between for prot, but i ask anyway)

Bigbad
04-22-2012, 01:44 AM
"Enrage up: 1.25 RPS" is just 25% extra on top of the white swings doesn't say anything about uptime. With incite glyph, ultimatum procs, dragonroar, berserker rage (that's still in the game right?) its possible to get high uptime on enrage.

kopcap
04-22-2012, 02:14 AM
I think they are trying to get "100%", not "high".

Airowird
04-22-2012, 03:01 AM
Enrage uptime: while SB is up, crit block chance is basicly doubled, so expect high chance there. On top of that, you have Dragon Roar & other melee crits to fill in the gaps.

Even with Weakened Blows & a less than 100% Enrage uptime, you can still get >80% uptime on SB, which can be fitted around boss casts or specials. The major issue I see will be with Shield Barrier, because you won't be able to have both up at the same time reliably, unlike Druids, DKs or Paladins (haven't checked Monks yet).

Dreadski
04-22-2012, 10:37 AM
Of the 50 or so times I've tanked the one dungeon included in the beta, I have not been able to ever achieve anywhere close to 100% uptime. Are you getting on beta? If so, possible to log it? Because for me even with shield block up I may get one enrage proc and watch it dwindle to nothing.

Also, Dragon Roar is currently broken and never crits unless you pop Reck.

Tengenstein
04-22-2012, 12:26 PM
can we confirm that we don't gain rage when a target Dodges, Parries, or are missed. and can we confirm we gain 5 Rage per swing on beta?

Dreadski
04-22-2012, 01:55 PM
13 rage per swing, I believe he meant "rage per second" when he said RPS. Not sure about the miss/dodge/parry yet, chances are that's a negative...

Takethecake
04-22-2012, 04:32 PM
Shield barrier as a whole sorta makes me sad. Completely removing our "active mitigation" for a magic cooldown almost equal to what druids get passively seems like a horrible mechanic.

Also I know this is off topic from this thread but did they remove the free heal on DS even when they miss/dodge/parry? Or can dk's still completely ignore hit/exp still?

Tengenstein
04-22-2012, 05:49 PM
and thats witha 2.6second weapon right?

Dreadski
04-22-2012, 06:58 PM
and thats witha 2.6second weapon right?

403 Souldrinker.

fengosa
04-23-2012, 06:04 AM
can we confirm that we don't gain rage when a target Dodges, Parries, or are missed. and can we confirm we gain 5 Rage per swing on beta? I haven't been able to successfully get my 85 warr copied over yet but I made a pandaren warrior and at level 1 he gets rage even when he gets parried or dodged. I'm not sure this will go live given that they want to make hit/exp more attractive. What I'm hoping for is that parries/blocks give rage and dodge/misses don't. This would make tank resources reliable by hitting the soft cap only.

@takethecake, mmo-champs latest datamining says death strike can't be parried. The omission of the words dodge and miss would seem to indicate that they'll need to hit their caps as well. Not sure if they get runes refunded or not for missing to make not being capped less utterly painful.

Gregasaurous
04-23-2012, 01:35 PM
Shield barrier as a whole sorta makes me sad. Completely removing our "active mitigation" for a magic cooldown almost equal to what druids get passively seems like a horrible mechanic.


This. I sure hope Blizz notices what we see as an obvious thing. This mechanic as is is going to cripple warriors in comparison on most boss fights. Sure we'll still be able to do them, but from a "good<better<best" hardcore progression standpoint we won't stand a chance IMO.

Tengenstein
04-23-2012, 02:18 PM
Does savage defense/bloodshield/pally equivalent work against magic now?

Dreadski
04-23-2012, 03:45 PM
I haven't been able to successfully get my 85 warr copied over yet but I made a pandaren warrior and at level 1 he gets rage even when he gets parried or dodged. I'm not sure this will go live given that they want to make hit/exp more attractive. What I'm hoping for is that parries/blocks give rage and dodge/misses don't. This would make tank resources reliable by hitting the soft cap only.

@takethecake, mmo-champs latest datamining says death strike can't be parried. The omission of the words dodge and miss would seem to indicate that they'll need to hit their caps as well. Not sure if they get runes refunded or not for missing to make not being capped less utterly painful.

Can you confirm getting parried/dodged on a shield slam still grants 10 rage?

Gregasaurous
04-23-2012, 06:07 PM
Does savage defense/bloodshield/pally equivalent work against magic now?

I don't know about Pally's. And as far as i know DK's are keeping pretty much near the same mechanics they have. I think that Druids though are getting a 2 for 1 as their mitigation ability. I haven't heard it confirmed from the mouth of somebody playing a guardian druid on beta, but i have heard it from multiple people.

Tengenstein
04-23-2012, 07:03 PM
I don't think we're really all that badly off. its not all that different to how we handle shield block now, with the 20% magic damage reduction for the 6 seconds or the extra crit block, except this is also more flexible in regards to timings. I've a bit of reading, they changed Savage Defence from 40% physical damage reduction to 40% Dodge a while back. Have they changed it back? If Bloodshield is staying the same as live then it only absorbs melee, not magic, so DKs are gonna have to rely on Boneshield and AMS, Dunno how Pallies deal with it; Divine Protection? We're pretty much the only tank that can roll a magic damage reduction for most of the fight if we want and and switch almsot at will between anti-magic and anti-melee modes.

Gregasaurous
04-23-2012, 07:20 PM
I think we're gonna have to ask a Druid. If you're right though we might still be on par. Apologies for the preemptive doomsday calling.

Perhaps a seperate thread cataloging the up to date mechanics for each tank class would be appropriate. Just so we can see them all side by side......

Tengenstein
04-23-2012, 07:26 PM
you could jsut use the wowhead MoP database and go throught the datamined changes listed on MMO-C

Pagezero
04-24-2012, 08:31 PM
Very interesting, latest beta:



Shield Barrier - Raise your shield, absorbing (1% of 10000% of AP) damage for the next 6 sec. Absorption amount increases with attack power.


A lot more useful than 20% spell damage, I think we needed another short CD.

kopcap
04-24-2012, 09:00 PM
They can't link it to AP without reworking vengeance. This will make people stack pure stamina and nothing else.

I don't understand why they are coming with all these dodgy new mechanics when all they need to do is to fix existing model, ie do something about spell reflect.

On another note, as I said go easy on your SB uptime calcs just yet http://mop.wowhead.com/spell=123147

Tengenstein
04-24-2012, 09:50 PM
But Kop, we're bored... we want numbers to play with!

The changes to our stances are interesting. Def getting the crit immunity is a nice change to let DPS warrior be impromptu tanks. though the battle/berserker stance ones are gonna feel strange to get used to. The enrage change is gonna make keeping SB up 100% alot easier.

Gregasaurous
04-25-2012, 12:53 AM
The enrage change is gonna make keeping SB up 100% alot easier.

can we start a discussion as to the diminishing value of mastery NOW?

Airowird
04-25-2012, 01:42 AM
Tbh, Stamina over avoidance so you can reduce more damage through Shield Barrier is a moot point, Avoidance will probably be doing roughly the same reduction and it doesn't require full Vengeance to do so.

The diminishing value of mastery does not exist if GC holds true to his word & Mastery/block will roll over into crit block during SB (it would actually be an improvement). If it does not, simply use Shield Barrier instead :)

Gregasaurous
04-25-2012, 02:10 AM
The diminishing value of mastery does not exist if GC holds true to his word & Mastery/block will roll over into crit block during SB (it would actually be an improvement). If it does not, simply use Shield Barrier instead :)

What GC says and what the Nerf-bat does are 2 different things.

kopcap
04-25-2012, 02:17 AM
Tbh, Stamina over avoidance so you can reduce more damage through Shield Barrier is a moot point, Avoidance will probably be doing roughly the same reduction and it doesn't require full Vengeance to do so.How so? In terms of survivability, stamina is already ahead of avoidance against heavy hitting melee. Now lets add a mitigation component on top of it, consider magic/unavoidable burst, devalue mastery through 100% SB uptime and throw in a dps bonus through vengeance just for lols - you won't find a single idiot with a green or yellows gem in his gear within a week from release.

Although I don't know what vengeance is like on beta. If its anywhere similar to live, this AP idea is silly.

Tengenstein
04-25-2012, 02:42 AM
I think I must be reading it differently to everyone else. is ShieldBarrier just 6 second 30k absorb shield assumimg live AP values? that really doesn't seem worth that much against boss melee even if Mastery didn't exist. Assuming 3 swings and 33% avoidance and 100% SB uptime means the other 2 hits will be blocked and reduced by 30%,wouldn't that infer the boss need to do less than 50K per swing to make Sbar win on minimising damage taken. Regardless of Mastery boosting SB crit blocks I don't see SBar as being a better alternative to SB unless you can't block the damage, or its so insignificant you don't care if you block the damage.

Gregasaurous
04-25-2012, 03:08 AM
"1% of 10000% of AP" Do i suck at math or does that just mean we'll get an absorb equal to our attack power?
So at maximum 10% of my HP (from vengeance) + whatever AP i have passively, which on live is less than what i get from Vengeance. So roughly estimated, a absorb for..... 16% of my total health? Not bad, but not exactly ground breaking either.

Bigbad
04-25-2012, 03:40 AM
Vengeance=10% base hp + stamina. Seems the value of shieldbarrier is very underwhelming just a really bad version of deathstrike, but maybe that's just comparing it to the highmastery values dks have at the end of the expansion. Could be just a bandage fix for unblockable damage but is it really good enough as a cd against magicdamage?

Tengenstein
04-25-2012, 04:02 AM
I think i prefered the 25% dmag reduction. I mean on live i wasn't to fussed if somthing hit me with a 120k laser but having a 25% damage reduction against impales woulda been nice.

Dreadski
04-25-2012, 04:45 AM
With my current health at level 87 Vengeance stacks to ~18k giving a 27k absorb. I only tested it on a couple of non elite quest mobs this morning to get a quick feel. Will test on the dungeon later (unfortunately we only have 1) and see how it goes in an active situation. I feel it may be gimped until T17 gear in it's current state.

Gregasaurous
04-25-2012, 10:53 AM
It's going to have pros and cons really. I think it will make a better "oh shit" button since it will stop damage, for only a GCD or two, but that gives the healer another few seconds to get a heal off. The con is, it's a finite number, so it won't be our best ability for a boss TKLoD compared to a "infinite" percentage.

Dreadski
04-25-2012, 11:57 AM
Rage generation seems worse than it was in the last patch- they capped us at level 87- and added Stormstout Brewery as well as a bunch of bug and quest fixes (and added more bugs lol). The patch notes say our rage generation should have been buffed, as enrage effects have been increased and enrage can proc off white hits now instead of just ability crits. But anectdotally it seems worse overall. Dunno.

Zellviren
05-01-2012, 08:53 AM
With my current health at level 87 Vengeance stacks to ~18k giving a 27k absorb. I only tested it on a couple of non elite quest mobs this morning to get a quick feel. Will test on the dungeon later (unfortunately we only have 1) and see how it goes in an active situation. I feel it may be gimped until T17 gear in it's current state.

I don't necessarily like redirecting, but my latest blog (http://unwaveringsentinel.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/future-of-tank-mastery.html) covers my view in more detail.

The TLDR: I think mastery will affect the new Shield Barrier, given that anywhere near 100% uptime on Shield Block (thanks to hit and expertise) shoves the value of mastery to a gutter stat. The value of mastery is in CTC, not Critical Block, because avoidance is a full 40% better once you can no longer take a full hit.

My justification for this view is that the precedent is set with the new paladin quirk, Bastion of Glory.

Tengenstein
05-01-2012, 09:30 AM
I think you may have overlooked the possibility that mastery doesn't have to be an attractive stat, its not outside the realm of possibility that Mastery just won't be something prot warriors want.

Zellviren
05-01-2012, 09:36 AM
I think you may have overlooked the possibility that mastery doesn't have to be an attractive stat, its not outside the realm of possibility that Mastery just won't be something prot warriors want.

I've not overlooked it, I just don't see how they would consider a bona fide defensive stat not being attractive as "good design".

It's inherently bad design, especially when there's a pretty obvious solution staring them in the face.

Tengenstein
05-01-2012, 10:12 AM
I've not overlooked it, I just don't see how they would consider a bona fide defensive stat not being attractive as "good design".

It's inherently bad design, especially when there's a pretty obvious solution staring them in the face.

Avoidance is a bona fide defensive stat it was not attractive in Wrath, Block value was a bona fide defensive stat it was not attractive in Wrath, Armour is a bona fide defensive stat, it is not attractive in Cata.

Dreadski
05-01-2012, 12:01 PM
Avoidance is a bona fide defensive stat it was not attractive in Wrath, Block value was a bona fide defensive stat it was not attractive in Wrath, Armour is a bona fide defensive stat, it is not attractive in Cata.

This is important to remember. Recall the singular places where avoidance is called for outside of CTC capping for certain Cata fights.

Zellviren
05-01-2012, 12:57 PM
Avoidance is a bona fide defensive stat it was not attractive in Wrath, Block value was a bona fide defensive stat it was not attractive in Wrath, Armour is a bona fide defensive stat, it is not attractive in Cata.

I daresay that if you chose to remove avoidance from your tanking gear you'd notice. Substantially so. Actually, this was a point Greg Street himself made during 3.3 when people were saying stamina was the only stat that mattered. Why is that important?

Because avoidance is ALWAYS attractive, otherwise we wouldn't bother having tanking gear at all.

Any argument to the contrary is short-sighted and wrong, unless you wish to explain why you use tanking armour other than the defensive stats on it.

Block value and armour are not relevant comparisons at all, as the Cataclysm version of block made them both utterly redundant (and block value was brokenly weak in WotLK). Do you want to talk about why 30 minute Shield Wall wasn't so great? That's the direction you're taking.

If you wish to be so arrogantly dismissive of an opinion differing from your own, my only request is that you try to at least be sensible whilst doing so.

Tengenstein
05-01-2012, 01:40 PM
How is it arrogant to suggest that Blizzard, a company that let block value be "brokenly weak" in one expansion, might just let mastery (which at this point is block value for prot warriors) be brokenly weak in another expansion? you say that the cataclysm version of block made armour redundant, why is it arrogant to suggest that maybe, the MoP version of shield block might just make mastery redundant? and Mr.street can say what he likes, any half decent tank in wrath stacked stam stam and more stam. if it wans't a direct effective health increase, it didn't matter mana was nigh infinite, and healers where pumping out Healing at the tank regardless of the incoming tank damage, they didn't care if we parried, or didged, or took a hit full to the face they where still gonna just spam Holy light or its equivalent at us, they healed assuming the worse case scenario and we gemed and enchanted for the worse case scenario, furthermore we had so muchavoidance on gear and where so far into DRs it just wasn't attractive in wrath and in the last tier we had a whole 15% dodge taken away, and parry being on such Harsh DRs meant that stacking either was redundant.

Aggathon
05-01-2012, 01:55 PM
I haven't really been keeping up with this thread, but they've said it will be pretty much impossible to hit full CTC come MoP, the paradigm is going to change again because your blocks and mitigation will be more determined by abilities than stats.

If you go back and look at the ICC EHP thread, you'll see the run-time series statistical analysis of incoming hits, I think it was section 6. What matters in that analysis isn't the odds of taking a hit, but rather the odds of taking successive hits in a row at least one time druing a fight. At very low avoidance levels you're pretty much going to get hit a bunch of times im a row no matter what, as you increase avoidance levels they remain irrelevant until about 42% then got exponentially more important up until about 70-80% avoidance, then after that each increase becomes almost as irrelevant as it was until 42%.

With a two roll system, block becomes more complicated to figure out its value, but we also know that it's value decreases with avoidance. Subsequently, block, dodge, and parry will all be pretty much irrelevant in MoP and I imagine the only things we MIGHT have to stack are hit and expertise to some statistically significant extent to generate enough rage for things like shield block and ability use will matter for more for incoming damage (and healer mana) than stats will. Since stats won't matter... STACK YOU SOME STAM SON!

Dreadski
05-01-2012, 04:57 PM
I haven't really been keeping up with this thread, but they've said it will be pretty much impossible to hit full CTC come MoP, the paradigm is going to change again because your blocks and mitigation will be more determined by abilities than stats.

If you go back and look at the ICC EHP thread, you'll see the run-time series statistical analysis of incoming hits, I think it was section 6. What matters in that analysis isn't the odds of taking a hit, but rather the odds of taking successive hits in a row at least one time druing a fight. At very low avoidance levels you're pretty much going to get hit a bunch of times im a row no matter what, as you increase avoidance levels they remain irrelevant until about 42% then got exponentially more important up until about 70-80% avoidance, then after that each increase becomes almost as irrelevant as it was until 42%.

With a two roll system, block becomes more complicated to figure out its value, but we also know that it's value decreases with avoidance. Subsequently, block, dodge, and parry will all be pretty much irrelevant in MoP and I imagine the only things we MIGHT have to stack are hit and expertise to some statistically significant extent to generate enough rage for things like shield block and ability use will matter for more for incoming damage (and healer mana) than stats will. Since stats won't matter... STACK YOU SOME STAM SON!

Post brought tears to my eyes. Well put, and this might be the second time I've sigged you.

fengosa
05-01-2012, 08:06 PM
If you think about it avoidance scales poorly with SB uptime as well. At 0% uptime, you parry/dodge 100% of the damage. At 100% SB uptime you only reduce damage 70% as you would have blocked 30% regardless. It suffers from the exact same problem that mastery does so I'm not certain that block is devalued any more than avoidance.

You also have to account for the fact that 100% SB won't be easily obtainable in early tiers since we have less rating to grab hit/exp from. There's a distinct possibiltiy that the ctc rating you lose from taking threat stats will make for very harsh worst case scenarios when SB is down because you don't have much passive avoidance in that scenario. Now factor in the mana costs associated with taking extra damage and stam becomes unappealing as well.

Taking that all in, you're still going to want to keep an active rotation working because it reduces more damage than you would by not keeping SB up no matter what your ctc stats look like. Even if player skill diminishes the value of ctc rating it still looks like the best stats to me albeit with very rough numbers that I've used so far.

Gregasaurous
05-01-2012, 11:50 PM
If you think about it avoidance scales poorly with SB uptime as well. At 0% uptime, you parry/dodge 100% of the damage. At 100% SB uptime you only reduce damage 70% as you would have blocked 30% regardless. It suffers from the exact same problem that mastery does so I'm not certain that block is devalued any more than avoidance.

You also have to account for the fact that 100% SB won't be easily obtainable in early tiers since we have less rating to grab hit/exp from. There's a distinct possibiltiy that the ctc rating you lose from taking threat stats will make for very harsh worst case scenarios when SB is down because you don't have much passive avoidance in that scenario. Now factor in the mana costs associated with taking extra damage and stam becomes unappealing as well.

Taking that all in, you're still going to want to keep an active rotation working because it reduces more damage than you would by not keeping SB up no matter what your ctc stats look like. Even if player skill diminishes the value of ctc rating it still looks like the best stats to me albeit with very rough numbers that I've used so far.

I don't make sense of the first part there.

The second part: If GC holds to his word, we're gonna have hit/exp on our tier sets. And then IF we can't get enough, and SB uptime turns into our "end all/be all" of war tanking, we'll take whatever gear we can get that has hit/exp. And then there's reforging. I think we'll be ok.
You make a interesting point with mana efficiency, i would hope it will be a non issue though. I guess we'll see how healer mana usage turns out when people hit level cap in beta.

Your last statement is contradictory to what history has taught us. When incoming damage becomes something WE can't "efficiently" mitigate on our end, we turn to EHP.

Bigbad
05-02-2012, 12:29 AM
Keeping up shieldblock with the T14 4set which makes it 50 rage should be doable. Some napkin math below not sure if the numbers are reasonable for MoP but feels like they should bump up the value of mastery to 2% crit block per point. Stamina is always nice but there is a point where you have "enough".

Assuming 100% shieldblock uptime and 20% crit block (resulting in an average block of 36%) avoidance reduces 64% of the damage on average, add in diminishing returns which will be somewhere around 0,7-0,8 and you get a value around 0,5%.

Assuming 25% avoidance and 1,5% crit block per mastery (0,75*1,5*0,3=0,3375) you get a value of 0,34% damage reduced on average.

Gregasaurous
05-02-2012, 02:17 AM
Keeping up shieldblock with the T14 4set which makes it 50 rage should be doable. Some napkin math below not sure if the numbers are reasonable for MoP but feels like they should bump up the value of mastery to 2% crit block per point. Stamina is always nice but there is a point where you have "enough".

Assuming 100% shieldblock uptime and 20% crit block (resulting in an average block of 36%) avoidance reduces 64% of the damage on average, add in diminishing returns which will be somewhere around 0,7-0,8 and you get a value around 0,5%.

Assuming 25% avoidance and 1,5% crit block per mastery (0,75*1,5*0,3=0,3375) you get a value of 0,34% damage reduced on average.

It would appear as though you used commas instead of decimals and it really confused the hell out of me until i realized it was a recurring typo?

Tengenstein
05-02-2012, 02:26 AM
It would appear as though you used commas instead of decimals and it really confused the hell out of me until i realized it was a recurring typo?

To be fair Greg both commas and periods are acceptable nomenclature.

Gregasaurous
05-02-2012, 02:57 AM
To be fair Greg both commas and periods are acceptable nomenclature.

Fair enough.

Bigbad
05-02-2012, 03:21 AM
The dutch use commas :) Think dots instead is an American thing?

Zellviren
05-02-2012, 04:23 AM
How is it arrogant...

It was arrogant because you attempted to completely sideline a perfectly valid opinion that differed from your own. Worse, you chose to do so by snidely boiling said opinion down to a pithy rebuke that relied on obviously bad analogies. The fact you've since shifted tack to a more defensive discussion implies that you're aware of this fact.


...Blizzard, a company that let block value be "brokenly weak" in one expansion, might just let mastery (which at this point is block value for prot warriors) be brokenly weak in another expansion?

Because they've never let it be weak - in fact, they've actively tried to avoid that scenario and went the whole hog in Cataclysm by changing value to a static 30% (outside of mastery modifiers, obviously). You could argue that Anub'arak was the first attempt at making block interesting, but that would be a very tenuous link.

My point is that mastery, the warrior block stat, was deliberately aimed at making block worthwhile. Completely devaluing it doesn't make any sense.


...the MoP version of shield block might just make mastery redundant?

That's against the stated design intent from Greg Street himself.


if it wans't a direct effective health increase, it didn't matter mana was nigh infinite, and healers where pumping out Healing at the tank regardless of the incoming tank damage, they didn't care if we parried, or didged, or took a hit full to the face they where still gonna just spam Holy light or its equivalent at us, they healed assuming the worse case scenario and we gemed and enchanted for the worse case scenario...

With mana no longer being infinite the way it was then, I personally feel this is a bad analogy. With mana mattering in MoP (presumably, of course), particularly at entry level raiding, stacking stamina to the exclusion of all else simply isn't compelling. Additionally, you never know; they might make good on their promise to stop making stamina the only solution to huge nukes.

Making mastery affect Shield Barrier is one such way of doing this.


...furthermore we had so muchavoidance on gear and where so far into DRs it just wasn't attractive in wrath and in the last tier we had a whole 15% dodge taken away, and parry being on such Harsh DRs meant that stacking either was redundant.

We also didn't have reforging or a block model that was worth considering in the majority of content.

Times have changed, and in the case of block, quite dramatically so.

Tengenstein
05-02-2012, 05:10 AM
you seem kinda upset. I didn't side line you I asked you if you see the possibility of blizzard letting mastery be a sucky stat, and you said no they wouldn't let that happen. I've provided examples. you can either accept blizzard sometimes doesn't get it right, and that sometimes what Mr.Street says he wants isn't necessarily what ends up happening or you don't. no skin off my back; But if you can't stand to see other people not agree with you, perhaps you should stay off the internet.

Times are changing, i agree, why does that mean the value of mastery can't change for prot?

Airowird
05-02-2012, 05:51 AM
Blizzard DID let Block be weak, just look at ICC gear, they know they failed after Anub, simply because the pre-cata block system was not designed to have shield tanks at equal level as Druids & DKs. Hence they moved to Armor in ICC.
They went forward with the 30% in Cata, but they missed the ball on the single table. The current design, with correct numbers ofc, is the best possible option I can think of that is usable for WoW.

As for Mastery value and SB:
If SB will still overflow block into crit block then you see no difference when...
B% * (1 + C%) = 2*C%
With B% = Block chance and C% Crit block chance.
Normally, B% = C% + 13% (3% base, 10% from Bastion), which ends up as...
(13% + C%) * (1 + C%) = 2*C%
C%*C% + 1.13*C% + 13% = 2*C%
C%≤ - 0.87*C% + 0.13 = 0

C%1 = 19.16%
C%2 = 67.84%

That means that SB devalues Mastery when Block chance is between 32.16% and 80.84% ...
Pretty much the entire expected range of Block chances, but this does not mean Mastery becomes uselss, just that SB reduces it's usefulness. I'll do a more in depth value analysis of MAstery & avoidance stats once I got some lvl 90 scaling numbers.


Edit: To substantiate Teng's point: Mr. Street said that MoP would have stat crunching because they didn't want to make giant ass numbers in the game, it would complicate stuff and make damage less obvious to read. Guess what? It ain't in!

Zellviren
05-02-2012, 05:59 AM
you seem kinda upset. I didn't side line you I asked you if you see the possibility of blizzard letting mastery be a sucky stat, and you said no they wouldn't let that happen. I've provided examples. you can either accept blizzard sometimes doesn't get it right, and that sometimes what Mr.Street says he wants isn't necessarily what ends up happening or you don't. no skin off my back; But if you can't stand to see other people not agree with you, perhaps you should stay off the internet.Times are changing, i agree, why does that mean the value of mastery can't change for prot? Iím not upset with it, just bored. Itís tedious to see Internet cliques that try to shut down discussions because they donít conform with the ideas of said clique. I get involved in class discussions because I like getting involved in discussions related to my hobby; Iím assuming you do, too. I simply donít appreciate (or intellectually respect) the provision of demonstrably bad examples in an attempt to ostracise those of differing opinion. Your mileage may vary, of course.

Zellviren
05-02-2012, 06:04 AM
Edit: To substantiate Teng's point: Mr. Street said that MoP would have stat crunching because they didn't want to make giant ass numbers in the game, it would complicate stuff and make damage less obvious to read. Guess what? It ain't in! I donít wish to discuss this at length right now because, for some reason, my work browser puts all my text into a horrid wall that is painful to read. All I will say at the moment is that youíre wrong; Ghostcrawler never said that the stat crunch would happen in MoP, merely that it could. I know you want to support your pal here, but please donít start rewriting history as a means of doing so.

Aggathon
05-02-2012, 06:50 AM
idk what a stat crunch has to do with any of this, the reasons for a stat crunch are completely irrelevant from a math perspective on tanking. It's just scaling. Stat crunch is all about "feel" and how important gear is, but mainly how important gear is for DPS since DPS don't really have diminishing returns like tanks do.

Heres the deal. Block being a two roll system significantly devalues it, WHICH IS WHAT BLIZZARD WANTS. Blizzard does not want tanks to be able to get to CTC then just sit in front of the computer drooling and/or bashing their heads against the wall and/or letting their cats walk on their keyboards while they go grab another beer. The way to make full CTC literally impossible is to have a small amount of DRs, make 100% block impossible to reach without using abilities, and then throw in a 2 roll system. Stat-flation can't get you passively CTC with this model.

Therefore, what matters in tanking is being able to it stuff to get enough rage to use your mitigation abilities properly to ease healer mana. PURE STATISTICS STATES that at this point stacking avoidance and mitigation stats is statistically irrelevant over the course of an entire fight. What matters is burst-time calculations where the "worst case scenario" happens and you just get trucked in the face. With the ability to use cooldowns such as shield block or shield wall or whatever else blizz might throw our way to use in these situations, we can help mitigate these worst-case scenarios, but the only thing that will keep us alive here for real is EHP. The only reason why EHP hasn't been used in Cata (and the only other time in late TBC and on H-Anub25) is because you could stack avoidance and/or block to a statistically significant amount to decrease the amount healers had to be putting out. With a two roll model, you can't do that. Using your abilities properly is what will save healer mana, not stats.

Mark my words. CTC Ratings (Dodge/Parry/Mastery) will be near irrelevant. Hit/expertise (to some extent, I don't think we'll be stacking to 47 expertise rating, I'd guess 26 expertise 8% hit MAX, probably less more like 5% hit/20 expertise will suffice but we won't know until the ratings/gear/boss mechanics are finalized at max level) then after that go stam. If you're using your abilities properly, then healers should have mana to heal you when stats fails you and you get trucked in the face, as long as you have a big enough EHP buffer for them to respond to it.

Airowird
05-02-2012, 07:14 AM
1) Actually, GC said that in order to prevent issues with caps (that are there to prevent overflow issues, such as threat currently in cata), they would either have to implement a "mega damage" solution, or do a stat crunch, because they were better alternatives than redoing the system to fit the big ass numbers in and he even stated that the stat crunch is the most logical solution to their problem. As far as I can tell, they DID change part of the system to allow big numbers, which (for those unfortunate people that have a traffic limit on their internet) means far more traffic generated by the game.
The only reason I can think of for choosing to adapt the system to larger numbers is simply because it takes less time before they can launch MoP, a bad designer choice and one I did not think Greg Street would opt for (or allow without issues) and regardless, it is still "against the stated design intent" as you put it. The point still stands that the actual result and design intent do not always see eye to eye.

2) "Not attractive" does not constitute "useless". Example: While leveling my Rogue in Twilands, I used a Strength Mace, simply because the DPS was attractive. I would certainly have prefered the Strength was something more useful like Hit or Agility, but while it wasn't attractive, it was still useful. Bonus Armor (read: trinkets) in Cata is no longer an attractive option because of the stat weight making it reduce far less damage compared to the ICC days. It is still just as useful as it was before, but because math values other stats far higher, it is no longer attractive. That means that theory crafting defines attractive stats as those with more leverage on the end-goal, relative to other stats.
Pre-Dragon soul, Mastery is very attractive for a Warrior and avoidance is not (while hit/exp is truly almost useless after the threat buff). As it stands now, Mastery will become attractive for Protection Warriors somewhere around hc T14, end of normal T15, even with Shield Block slightly reducing its value. On the other side, Dodge will be more attractive to Guardian Druids than Mastery due do the Savage Defense ability reducing Mastery's value (but not Dodge). In its previous incarnation, SD favoured neither and Dodge and Mastery were both the most attractive defensive stats, but compared to each other, neither was more attractive than the other (the gain of either at any given point was too similar and fluctuating to consider any choice between them meaningful)

3) Also, you accuse members here of shunning different opinions, yet in your post here (http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?79114-Protection-Warriors&p=548144#post548144) you call anyone disagreeing with you short-sighted and wrong. Nobody was arrogantly dismissive or insensible but yourself. From a damage reduction PoV, Mastery is still the best stat to do so on a Prot Warrior, followed by Dodge/Parry and Armor. As Armor is not available as a stat on gear, it comes down to mastery vs avoidance, at which point avoidance is NOT attractive, mastery is. Feel free to do the math on that and come back with more than a subjective opinion.

3) Tengenstein is NOT my 'pal'. He may be a fellow theory crafter, but we're not close buddies and certainly don't always agree on things (nothing personal, Teng). I could rant about providing arguments vs accusing politics, but really, just read this again (http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?46395-Posting-amp-Chat-Rules-READ-ME-BEFORE-POSTING&p=185666#post185666), specificly that last point on Post Content.

kopcap
05-02-2012, 07:20 AM
I donít wish to discuss this at length right now because, for some reason, my work browser puts all my text into a horrid wall that is painful to read. All I will say at the moment is that youíre wrong; Ghostcrawler never said that the stat crunch would happen in MoP, merely that it could. I know you want to support your pal here, but please donít start rewriting history as a means of doing so.Man, this clique is evil, I am telling you. Good thing you are on it, we are safe now!


If you go back and look at the ICC EHP thread, you'll see the run-time series statistical analysis of incoming hits, I think it was section 6. What matters in that analysis isn't the odds of taking a hit, but rather the odds of taking successive hits in a row at least one time druing a fight. At very low avoidance levels you're pretty much going to get hit a bunch of times im a row no matter what, as you increase avoidance levels they remain irrelevant until about 42% then got exponentially more important up until about 70-80% avoidance, then after that each increase becomes almost as irrelevant as it was until 42%.Agga, I had to look at this section because this paragraph looked weird to me. Here are three problems with it just on the surface:

First, avoidance is not an independent stat, it correlates with stam. If you are pushing avoidance up one side of the graph, your EHP is changing too. So is the number of hits needed to bring you down to 0. Difference is very significant, you have to account for this.

Second, we don't deal with percentages, we deal with ratings. Ratings have DR. I don't want to know how much my survivability changes per 1% avoidance, I want to know how much it changes per 100 rating at different values of avoidance. This, combined with the first point, will literally turn your graph on its head and flip it around a few times.

Third, why 5 over 100? 5 consecutive hits on progression without heals won't kill you, they will smack you into the ground and leave a crater the size of Great Canyon on your place. Why 100, why not 250 which is more realistic for a 10 minutes fight? Or why not ~40 which is more realistic in terms of cooldown windows? If you change these numbers, graph will change a lot too.

Anyway, I am not entirely sure what the graph tells us, if it tells anything at all. If I look at avoidance, I prefer doing it from TtL and BT stand points because I can understand what they are describing and their implications. According to them, avoidance has pretty good returns at low levels but not so at 40% plus. Hence why I think that removing avoidance from our gear will be very noticeable and that saying that "as you increase avoidance levels they remain irrelevant until about 42% then got exponentially more important up until about 70-80% avoidance" is extremely misleading.

Krenian
05-02-2012, 07:32 AM
Been watching this thread and there are certain individuals that are coming close to getting looked at and smacked for.

Need I remind everyone that name calling or going around and calling people negative terms is subject to disciplinary actions.

Bring the tone down and stop calling each other names and talk civilly. Just because someone doesn't agree with your position, doesn't mean that it gives you 'carte blanche' to call them names.

You've been warned.

Aggathon
05-02-2012, 08:08 AM
for the record, Airo and I are talking to kopcap in shoutbox... I think we got it straightened out =D

Zellviren
05-02-2012, 08:54 AM
Okay - I can get back to this properly now, Airowird.


Blizzard DID let Block be weak, just look at ICC gear, they know they failed after Anub, simply because the pre-cata block system was not designed to have shield tanks at equal level as Druids & DKs. Hence they moved to Armor in ICC.

This sentence is contradictory. If Blizzard "let" block be weak, they couldn't have "failed after Anub" because they'd never have tried. This will undoubtedly come across as pedantic, for which I apologise, but it's important to note that they at least tried to make block more interesting. Yes, the net result in TotGC was the virtual shoe-horning of DK's and druids out of a specific encounter, but that doesn't mean they didn't try.

The fact they went for bonus armour, then moved to the static percentage, shows just how determined Blizzard were to make warriors and paladins actually want to block.


They went forward with the 30% in Cata, but they missed the ball on the single table. The current design, with correct numbers ofc, is the best possible option I can think of that is usable for WoW.

I don't think it's any more elegant than having the single table and tuning DR's for parry, dodge and block accordingly. I'll assume you've read Theck's work on block so I won't repeat it, but I also tend to edge toward a model where block tanks will always block an attack they won't avoid.

Clearly, that would need adjusted, but it's the model I think would be the most successful and transparent.


That means that SB devalues Mastery when Block chance is between 32.16% and 80.84% ...
Pretty much the entire expected range of Block chances, but this does not mean Mastery becomes uselss, just that SB reduces it's usefulness. I'll do a more in depth value analysis of MAstery & avoidance stats once I got some lvl 90 scaling numbers.

I don't think mastery becomes useless, just a gutter stat. If that's what you've taken from my commentary, it's not what I intended and I apologise. But you're basically saying the value of mastery has plummetted by default and I can't see Blizzard letting that go live for two reasons:

1) They worked hard to make block something warriors and paladins wanted.
2) They've reworked Divine Bulwark for paladins to ensure BOTH of their resourced AM options are covered.

I see no reason why they won't take that route with warriors, especially because they look to be grossly underpowered without further changes.


1) Actually, GC said that in order to prevent issues with caps (that are there to prevent overflow issues, such as threat currently in cata), they would either have to implement a "mega damage" solution, or do a stat crunch, because they were better alternatives than redoing the system to fit the big ass numbers in and he even stated that the stat crunch is the most logical solution to their problem. As far as I can tell, they DID change part of the system to allow big numbers, which (for those unfortunate people that have a traffic limit on their internet) means far more traffic generated by the game.

Correct. He stated they would either crunch stats OR go for the "mega damage" solution. Please re-read your earlier comment.


The only reason I can think of for choosing to adapt the system to larger numbers is simply because it takes less time before they can launch MoP, a bad designer choice and one I did not think Greg Street would opt for (or allow without issues) and regardless, it is still "against the stated design intent" as you put it. The point still stands that the actual result and design intent do not always see eye to eye.

You don't have to think about it, that's specifically what he said; "we were already changing so much, we didn't want to swamp players" was the gist of it. The design intent was to make these numbers manageable, and the intent has made it into the game. You're a skilled theorycrafter (of which I'm envious), but your logic could do with some work.


2) "Not attractive" does not constitute "useless".

I never argued otherwise. IIRC, my first post on the value of mastery said that it had been relegated to a gutter stat; not that it had become useless (though I'll need to check, just to be certain).

I'm not into straw-man arguments, I'm afraid.


It is still just as useful as it was before, but because math values other stats far higher, it is no longer attractive. That means that theory crafting defines attractive stats as those with more leverage on the end-goal, relative to other stats.

It's not just as useful as it was before, because prior to Cataclysm armour was the only way of meaningfully cushioning a hit you didn't avoid. We've already spoken of block being brokenly weak in general, as well as warriors being unable to get anywhere near CTC during WotLK. We even spoke about infinite mana.

Moving forward, that's not the world we're in. It's all very well using maths to define value, but ignoring context doesn't help at all.


Pre-Dragon soul, Mastery is very attractive for a Warrior and avoidance is not (while hit/exp is truly almost useless after the threat buff).

Is that why raiding warriors all picked gear that had avoidance on it as preference? I'm absolutely astounded that people are arguing that avoidance is unattractive.


As it stands now, Mastery will become attractive for Protection Warriors somewhere around hc T14, end of normal T15, even with Shield Block slightly reducing its value. On the other side, Dodge will be more attractive to Guardian Druids than Mastery due do the Savage Defense ability reducing Mastery's value (but not Dodge). In its previous incarnation, SD favoured neither and Dodge and Mastery were both the most attractive defensive stats, but compared to each other, neither was more attractive than the other (the gain of either at any given point was too similar and fluctuating to consider any choice between them meaningful)

We cannot really debate this without knowing level 90 itemization.


3) Also, you accuse members here of shunning different opinions, yet in your post here (http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?79114-Protection-Warriors&p=548144#post548144) you call anyone disagreeing with you short-sighted and wrong. Nobody was arrogantly dismissive or insensible but yourself.

The specific comment referenced stated that avoidance wasn't attractive. It was wrong, hence I named it as such. Again, the defensive posture being taken here implies that you're very well aware of who was the aggressor in this intercession.


From a damage reduction PoV, Mastery is still the best stat to do so on a Prot Warrior, followed by Dodge/Parry and Armor. As Armor is not available as a stat on gear, it comes down to mastery vs avoidance, at which point avoidance is NOT attractive, mastery is. Feel free to do the math on that and come back with more than a subjective opinion.

I don't need math to prove something that's self-evident by plate tanks preferring gear with avoidance on it (and that having been the case since tier 1). I'd be more than happy to discuss the concept of moving down the druid route of removing dodge and parry from plate altogether, but that's another topic.


3) Tengenstein is NOT my 'pal'. He may be a fellow theory crafter, but we're not close buddies and certainly don't always agree on things (nothing personal, Teng). I could rant about providing arguments vs accusing politics, but really, just read this again (http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?46395-Posting-amp-Chat-Rules-READ-ME-BEFORE-POSTING&p=185666#post185666), specificly that last point on Post Content.

I've read it at length. It's a shame that the individual whose opinion you chose to "substantiate" didn't choose to post content when he listed several irrelevant examples just to poo poo someone elses view.

Shop smart. Shop S Mart.

Zellviren
05-02-2012, 08:58 AM
Man, this clique is evil, I am telling you. Good thing you are on it, we are safe now!

I feel part of it, already - many thanks for the warm welcome. :)

Incidentally, though I reckon you've already figured it out, I'm Thylacine on MMOC; I think you and I probably understand each other pretty well by this point.


Anyway, I am not entirely sure what the graph tells us, if it tells anything at all. If I look at avoidance, I prefer doing it from TtL and BT stand points because I can understand what they are describing and their implications. According to them, avoidance has pretty good returns at low levels but not so at 40% plus. Hence why I think that removing avoidance from our gear will be very noticeable and that saying that "as you increase avoidance levels they remain irrelevant until about 42% then got exponentially more important up until about 70-80% avoidance" is extremely misleading.

I'm nowhere near as clued-in with this as you are, but that's roughly my understanding of it.

Zellviren
05-02-2012, 09:01 AM
Been watching this thread and there are certain individuals that are coming close to getting looked at and smacked for.

Need I remind everyone that name calling or going around and calling people negative terms is subject to disciplinary actions.

Bring the tone down and stop calling each other names and talk civilly. Just because someone doesn't agree with your position, doesn't mean that it gives you 'carte blanche' to call them names.

You've been warned.

I must admit I don't get this. I'm not keen on the discussion style of some of the individuals in this thread, just as they're not keen on mine; but I don't think anyone has really crossed the line.

Defending one's point of view (even curtly) isn't a negative thing in my opinion, and I'm not sure who's broken the rules.

Takethecake
05-02-2012, 09:40 AM
Personally I think the tone of your posts comes off as very condescending and confrontational, but that's just personal opinion.

Also warriors in tier 11 and 12 favored mastery above everything else. To the point where dps gear was used that had mastery on it over pieces with pure avoidance. Given the choice, mastery/anything else was picked over dodge/parry combination gear in almost every case. Now that ctc is easy to come by that isn't as much the case, but even now warriors will pick up mastery/hit or mastery/expertise gear over dodge/parry gear just because from all the avoidance already on gear DR is fairly high so missing out on a little avoidance isn't huge as long as you maintain ctc. If we favored avoidance so much than warriors wouldn't be sitting at 3500+ mastery.

Previous to tier 11 it wasn't a matter of stacking avoidance, but the fact that avoidance was the only option that provided any decent benefit to tanking. Plus bosses hit so hard that it was more beneficial to stack stamina in order to survive multiple hits, rather than rely on avoidance to keep you alive. If avoidance was the focus of tanks than we would be gemming it.

Airowird
05-02-2012, 12:42 PM
I'm not gonna start a quote & rebuke war, so I'll stick to those things relevant to the topic at hand and I'll leave all the general design arguments for another thread where I'ld be more free to rant :)


I don't think it's any more elegant than having the single table and tuning DR's for parry, dodge and block accordingly. I'll assume you've read Theck's work on block so I won't repeat it, but I also tend to edge toward a model where block tanks will always block an attack they won't avoid.

Clearly, that would need adjusted, but it's the model I think would be the most successful and transparent. I haven't been up to date on Thecks work (or any work on beta, been too busy really), but I know his earlier work enough to assume what he'ld say. While transparent, it would certainly make tanking less interesting, effectively just removing Block as a mechanic and buffing armor.

On the value of Mastery & Block:
Unless they change the balance of rating conversions, Mastery will be more powerful than avoidance at nearly all forseeable levels.
Because armor & stamina can not be reforged, I can not currently evaluate their respective values against secondary ratings at this time. For that we will indeed need to wait until level 90 values are openly available.


I don't need math to prove something that's self-evident by plate tanks preferring gear with avoidance on it (and that having been the case since tier 1). I'd be more than happy to discuss the concept of moving down the druid route of removing dodge and parry from plate altogether, but that's another topic.What is popular isn't always right, what right isn't always popular.
What people prefer and what truly is the best (mathematicly) are not the same. The human mind is very subjective, especially when it comes to mathematical observations. Having healed from Naxx to Firelands, I can counter your observation that preferring avoidance as a tank is not nearly as often the best option as you indicate. This is exactly the difficulty of creating games, making systems that are interesting and appealing, yet at the same time have no mathematical fallacies.

themaz
05-02-2012, 01:50 PM
To kind of riff on what Airowird said, isn't the question of whether or not Mastery will be a dump stat entirely dependent on how its ratings conversion value and diminishing returns coefficient work? Conceptually, Mastery provides a survival benefit that is numerically measurable, so we have to know all the numbers to know how well it relatively stacks up against other numerically measurable survival factors.

As for whether or not stam will once again become king... I don't see how anything has really much changed since Wrath. IIRC, the reason stam was attractive in Wrath was because boss damage was such that 2-3 consecutive hits could kill you. Getting to an avoidance level such that 2-3 consecutive hits was a rare occurrence was infeasible (if not outright impossible), thus it was much more effective to turn that 2-3 number into a 3-4 number by stacking stam. In Cata, it could take 4-5 hit streaks to kill you, thus reasonable avoidance levels could (statistically) prevent tank-killing hit streaks. Increasing the 4-5 threshold to a 5-6 threshold now provided much less bang for the buck than the 2-3 to 3-4 shift.

If MoP bosses return to the massive damage model, then stam will once again rise in importance. I don't think this will happen. If I were to make a guess, I'd say that the bosses will continue to have their melee swings (or whatever auto-damage they have) tuned at the 4-5 swings number, but have multiple special abilities that will require active mitigation. Tanks will stack stam to the point that will allow them a 3-4 hit buffer *after* perfectly utilizing their active mitigation abilities. Stacking more stam after this point will allow for more sloppiness/error in active mitigation usage, to the detriment (of course) of healer sustainability.

Zellviren
05-02-2012, 02:04 PM
I'm not gonna start a quote & rebuke war, so I'll stick to those things relevant to the topic at hand and I'll leave all the general design arguments for another thread where I'ld be more free to rant :)

Classy response. I think I may well have misjudged you, and I apologise for my part in the aggression to this point.


I haven't been up to date on Thecks work (or any work on beta, been too busy really), but I know his earlier work enough to assume what he'ld say. While transparent, it would certainly make tanking less interesting, effectively just removing Block as a mechanic and buffing armor.

Not necessarily; assuming 100% block is baseline (though, I'd make it 20% if it was), they could potentially do more things with it, such as the live version of Divine Bulwark or Critical Block being the baseline effects from mastery. That would differentiate it from armour and make balancing block itself a lot easier in my opinion, while also cutting them a bit looser with mastery itself.


On the value of Mastery & Block:
Unless they change the balance of rating conversions, Mastery will be more powerful than avoidance at nearly all forseeable levels.
Because armor & stamina can not be reforged, I can not currently evaluate their respective values against secondary ratings at this time. For that we will indeed need to wait until level 90 values are openly available.

To an extent, this is why I dislike theory-crafting classically at this moment in time. I've had a very similar discussion with kopcap over at MMOC, and we've no real idea what health pools or average boss swings are going to look like in T14.


What is popular isn't always right, what right isn't always popular.
What people prefer and what truly is the best (mathematicly) are not the same. The human mind is very subjective, especially when it comes to mathematical observations. Having healed from Naxx to Firelands, I can counter your observation that preferring avoidance as a tank is not nearly as often the best option as you indicate. This is exactly the difficulty of creating games, making systems that are interesting and appealing, yet at the same time have no mathematical fallacies.

Having tracked the shoutbox discussion earlier regarding simulated averages and mathematical certainties, that's why I liked the single table for block throughout Cataclysm; at least there was a decision to be made. Even critically blocking was inferior to avoiding an attack, but the lack of DR and full CTC made mastery as appealing as it did and not because it was technically better.

I think the live model with DR's on block would solve the problem Blizzard are trying to solve with two rolls. Worse, it's going to be three for us and Critical Block.

Airowird
05-03-2012, 01:15 AM
Not necessarily; assuming 100% block is baseline (though, I'd make it 20% if it was), they could potentially do more things with it, such as the live version of Divine Bulwark or Critical Block being the baseline effects from mastery. That would differentiate it from armour and make balancing block itself a lot easier in my opinion, while also cutting them a bit looser with mastery itself.If you always reduce 20% damage, then Block does EXACTLY what armor does (except you have to face your opponent), in fact, the Druid Mastery is basicly a 'guaranteed block' where the block value just scales with your stats.
There is absolutely no difference in damage reduction between "blocking everything for 20% and a chance on crit block" and "reduce 20% melee damage and a chance to block". And we all know Blizzard considers passive mitigation models boring for players.

In a 2-roll system, DR is required, or you'ld be putting all your eggs in the same basket. This is why I dislike the crit block system scaling with Mastery, it creates too much bang for your buck at higher rating levels, possibly overcoming DR (haven't had a chance to plug in the latest bet changes yet)

PS: At a starting level, Mastery (especially for Warriors) actually reduces slightly less damage than avoidance, but it had a greater odds of reducing that killing streak of boss swings and at a later point, the capping meant you reduced 31% of all incoming damage (and crit block becomes as useful as block in ICC)

Zellviren
05-03-2012, 06:11 AM
If you always reduce 20% damage, then Block does EXACTLY what armor does (except you have to face your opponent), in fact, the Druid Mastery is basicly a 'guaranteed block' where the block value just scales with your stats.There is absolutely no difference in damage reduction between "blocking everything for 20% and a chance on crit block" and "reduce 20% melee damage and a chance to block". And we all know Blizzard considers passive mitigation models boring for players.Fair point. What I was really aiming at was a block model that was separate from armour via a meaningful choice of stats. During WotLK I was a fan of bonus armour (even prior to Icecrown) because it was part of the EH equation, as well as an AP boost through Armored to the Teeth. But my point was that, assuming base 20% physical damage reduction, Critical Block chance could only be increased by mastery following a successful Shield Slam, rather than a flat increase. I suppose I like interdependent stats.
In a 2-roll system, DR is required, or you'ld be putting all your eggs in the same basket. This is why I dislike the crit block system scaling with Mastery, it creates too much bang for your buck at higher rating levels, possibly overcoming DR (haven't had a chance to plug in the latest bet changes yet)On live, the value of mastery is in its ability to allow warriors to reach full CTC; currently with the 2-roll system, its value lies in Critical Block both mitigating double the normal damage AND its indirect increase to Shield Block uptime via more time spent enraged. This actually makes mastery more valuable than I previously thought, but still shoves it comfortably below avoidance so Iím still not sure how itíll scale at the moment. Itís the flip in where the value of mastery lies that makes me uncomfortable.
PS: At a starting level, Mastery (especially for Warriors) actually reduces slightly less damage than avoidance, but it had a greater odds of reducing that killing streak of boss swings and at a later point, the capping meant you reduced 31% of all incoming damage (and crit block becomes as useful as block in ICC)Thatís my understanding. If thatís not what youíve taken from my earlier post, itís because I wrote it badly; sorry. :(

Dreadski
05-03-2012, 06:52 PM
Currently on beta: Dragon Roar now crits 100% of the time, those crits proc an enrage 0% of the time...protection spec, at least.

Tengenstein
05-03-2012, 07:02 PM
well i suppose that at least gives us a choice of talents from the tier :P

Takethecake
05-04-2012, 01:02 PM
Question... can the double damage of glyph of incite crit for 4x damage?

fengosa
05-04-2012, 02:19 PM
Currently on beta: Dragon Roar now crits 100% of the time, those crits proc an enrage 0% of the time...protection spec, at least.I don't think enrage is proccing off of crits for any ability right now. We'll most likely have to wait for a new beta patch for that to be fixed. It should make testing SB uptime feasable when that happens. What are peoples thought on impending victory vs. Enraged regen? 60 rage for regen seems high given that you have to sacrifice and shield block or barrier for it. I'd rather spend the 10 rage on victory rush every 30 seconds.

Tengenstein
05-04-2012, 02:25 PM
I perosnally like the idea of blood craze better, we're looking to be pretty GCD locked so only exchaning Dev for an IV would not hurt our rage gen. assuming the bosses have a 2second swing timer and we have 33% avoidance (doubtful) the healing of the two should be around the same, though IV does have the nice component that we can control when we want it.

Dreadski
05-04-2012, 02:31 PM
I don't think enrage is proccing off of crits for any ability right now. We'll most likely have to wait for a new beta patch for that to be fixed. It should make testing SB uptime feasable when that happens. What are peoples thought on impending victory vs. Enraged regen? 60 rage for regen seems high given that you have to sacrifice and shield block or barrier for it. I'd rather spend the 10 rage on victory rush every 30 seconds.

Enraged Regen is free if you're enraged, it only has a rage cost if you're not.

Tengenstein
05-04-2012, 02:35 PM
does it consume the enrage though?

Dreadski
05-04-2012, 03:08 PM
does it consume the enrage though?

Tooltip and live testing say no. This is good.

EDIT: What's bad? They took mounts and pets and put them in their own spellbook window, but now I have no mounts...logged in mounted, dismounted and they were all gone... :(

Gregasaurous
05-04-2012, 06:45 PM
Let me just say i've been sidelining this thread for a few days and i'm glad too see it get back on topic.

The only reason i can think of for us spending 60 rage on a HoT is if we are tank switching and we are helping healers combat a boss debuff/DoT right after we are relieved of aggro. Even that seems unlikely though.

fengosa
05-04-2012, 08:24 PM
Let me just say i've been sidelining this thread for a few days and i'm glad too see it get back on topic.

The only reason i can think of for us spending 60 rage on a HoT is if we are tank switching and we are helping healers combat a boss debuff/DoT right after we are relieved of aggro. Even that seems unlikely though.

If what Dreador said is true than it makes regen much better. You won't have to spend any rage on it if you're smart about it as you can line it up with a zerker rage or dragon roar crit to proc your enrage and free heal. I prefer the more powerful CD myself with the added benefit of being rage free if you play it right. It needs to played properly though because the penalty is harsh if you use it improperly.

Second wind may provide comprable healing to the other two talents but it's a random 10% proc and there's no guarantee it'll proc when you need it as opposed to when your at full hp. You don't have any control over when it happens and I'll gladly sacrifice the gcd for that. It will really shine in PvP since you need to be hit a boatload of times before you die and also gives you rage when you're stunned or immobilized.

Gregasaurous
05-04-2012, 09:43 PM
If what Dreador said is true than it makes regen much better. You won't have to spend any rage on it if you're smart about it as you can line it up with a zerker rage or dragon roar crit to proc your enrage and free heal. I prefer the more powerful CD myself with the added benefit of being rage free if you play it right. It needs to played properly though because the penalty is harsh if you use it improperly.


Certainly yes, having a enrage at your disposal will be much preferable to burning 60 rage. My point was that in the instance i illustrated that's probably the only time it would be remotely viable to use the ability without an enrage up.

Dreadski
05-04-2012, 09:47 PM
Thinking about it, I would rather have SB up or the absorb and use a zerker to proc it than go without and pay for the heal. In fact if you do put SB up, chances are you'll be enraged soon.

kopcap
05-07-2012, 07:23 PM
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/4856945747?page=18#347

I was expecting this sort of glyph since they announce the new SBlock mechanic, but did not think they would make it 20 - thats OOOOOOOOOOOP. I bet this will get changed, still gonna be great at 10 rage.

SBar looks a lot more compelling since this now viably allows you to chain SBlock with Sbar in almost any situation and is a legit rage dump. Would be really nice to see the numbers.

I am torn about DS. One one hand, I hate the effect its going to have on AOE fights. On the other hand, its too good to be true for magic.

Dreadski
05-07-2012, 07:44 PM
I do believe if they made these changes to rage then we would be able to get our 100% shield block uptime. This would kind of open the door on differing gear sets again. In my opinion, at least.

Tengenstein
05-07-2012, 07:46 PM
Thing is Shield block was our DP/Barksin/Bone shield equivalent, and with it now being our SD/Blood shield equivalent we're donw a CD, so hopefully they'll let Demo shout be. God knows where i'm gonna put it on my bars. not having to stance dance for stuff has torn all my stance dependant keybind efficient macros out the window.

Dreadski
05-07-2012, 08:17 PM
I'm not even going to bother with macros until we're closer to launch. Mine are all in the same boat as yours for the most part, save for a few.

Dreadski
05-07-2012, 11:33 PM
One of the reasons we don't always announce changes before they happen is that things can move pretty fast in beta. Even though I mentioned some Protection changes above, they are already out of date. :(

Overall, the goal is to mix up Protection's rotation a little more. Prot warriors are used to lots of buttons, and we don't want too much waiting around. (For Arms and Fury, we can just flood them with rage, but with Protection the risk is that we hit 100% uptime of Shield Block, which turns it from being a short cooldown to a managed buff like Thunder Clap.) We also want to make sure tanks who execute their attacks with more skill are rewarded with better mitigation. To make this compelling, we think it needs to tie into Rage generation.

As part of this, we're going to try Defensive Stance no longer generating Rage from auto attacks at all. Instead we'll have nearly all Rage come from special attacks while in Defensive.
In addition to Shield Slam, we'll try Revenge and Devastate generating some Rage. Devastate will do so by once again being the ability that procs Sword and Board. For Revenge, we agree that the more rotational version has lost some of its old excitement. Revenge will generate Rage outright. It will no longer proc from blocks but will also have no cooldown so you will sometimes get multiple Revenges in a row.
We're going to try Shield Block using the charge system that we've tried for a few abilities, such as the monk Roll. This one may feel too different, but we'll see. What it means is you can use Shield Block twice in a row, but then pay a 15 sec cooldown. (The first use will start its cooldown as soon as its used.) This mechanic should let you chain together two Shield Blocks but not keep it up 100% of the time.
We think this rotation feels better and more traditionally Prot, but let us know how it feels to you.

He's saying also that shield barrier will be 20rage/30%AP, 40rage/60%AP, 60rage/90%AP of an absorb. I like.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/4856945747?page=23#454

Tengenstein
05-07-2012, 11:59 PM
GC realizes most prot warriors aim for 100% uptime on the TC debuff right?

Dreadski
05-08-2012, 05:33 AM
GC realizes most prot warriors aim for 100% uptime on the TC debuff right?
The TC debuff is now 30 seconds of 10% less physical damage, so in order to keep it up it shouldn't require much maintenance- especially if we're going to have decent hit/exp.

Takethecake
05-08-2012, 10:57 AM
The sum of all the new changes actually seems like a step in the right direction finally. They seem pretty keen on never being able to keep SB up 100% but the new 2 charge system seems interesting at least. Making all our rage dependent on actual special attacks seems like hit cap /exp soft cap will be extremely mandatory and exp hard cap wouldn't be a bad idea either. Means our overall avoidance will be lower but if we can get some reliable use out of SBar it could end up being good.

If we end up being fairly dependent on SBar I'm thinking stam stacking will be the standard MO though, simply to get as high AP as possible.

Pagezero
05-08-2012, 01:15 PM
I like most of the changes but the charge system just seems like one more thing to manage, I guess it's basically a 2 charge CD but today rage is a non-issue so we just look at one thing, the Shield Block CD, now we will need to look at rage and a CD. It just seems clunky, like the rage from AM isn't working out right. I think the problem is because defensive and offense (HS/Cleave) both use the same resource and we are used to spamming HS.

Revenge having no CD sound more interesting but it could be bad not know what is up with dodge and parry.

Dreadski
05-08-2012, 01:48 PM
None of it's implemented on beta yet as far as I can tell. Have not had a download prompt at least.

EDIT: BUT, the servers are down, so maybe that's what's going in. If so I'll pop in and test the new features.

fengosa
05-08-2012, 02:02 PM
The charges on shield block are a blessing in disguise since we can afford to spend rage on things other than SB. It adds more depth to our gameplay outside of build up 60 rage, hit SB. You can actually hit SBar or HS without feeling bad for delaying block. It seems like we have a decent amount of CDs to chain together especially with ER, demo shout and trinkets before you even consider your major CDs. Revenge will become more useful as we gear up and gain more avoidance which is a gradual change to playstyle over the course of the xpac, similar to how dps warrs got to HS more through cata.

Dreadski
05-09-2012, 05:11 AM
Okay so some of the changes went through. It doesn't appear that shield barrier is tiered, and revenge/deva don't grant rage. Revenge still procs snb and devastate doesn't. Demo shout works well. So far improved, still not sure how I like it all.

Tengenstein
05-09-2012, 05:44 AM
I'm not particularly impressed, i fear you could just macros SB into SS/Rev/Dev and be dune with it. We've got enough rage to keep it up close to 100% of the time but not enough that we'll end up clipping SB significantly by doing that or capping out on rage. if they want us to not use all of our rage on SB they need to either give us enough rage that keeping it up is trivial and our other dumps are required to not cap out, or put a cd on it.

Bigbad
05-09-2012, 06:05 AM
The sum total of these changes may provide too much rage. We'll have to see. We still want to mess with Berserker Stance and possibly Enrage rage generation as well to make sure warrior rage isn't too static and predictable. We want there to be some Heroic Strike use.

I don't really understand this you'll either have enough rage for 100% SB uptime and occasionally use a HS or you don't have enough rage for 100% SB uptime and almost never use HS outside of ultimatum procs. Extra rage from unpredictable stuff will just be pooled, glyph of unending rage is awesome for that.

Guess I'll just wait and see what they come up with.

Tengenstein
05-09-2012, 06:10 AM
Thats why SB needs a CD. So that we can't just dump all our rage into it.

Bigbad
05-09-2012, 07:04 AM
Don't think a CD will give nice gameplay, it would turn into using SB on CD 99% of the time. Having SB be limited by resource like deathstrike is limited by runes is more elegant, that way you're not punished by delaying it unless your resource is at its limit. The problem is that DKs also have runepower and blood runes as resource while warriors only have rage and that will limit the posibilities quite a bit.

The only way I can see it going is dumping all our rage into SB/barrier and aiming for high uptime, seems odd that the designers wish for "some Heroic strike use". Guess the challenge will be squeezing as much rage out of the rotation as possible.

Tengenstein
05-09-2012, 07:12 AM
That's exactly what i think. Having a CD on SB is the only way i can see us spending Rage on something outside of SB(ar) its not gonna be fun game play, but if they want us to use rage on HS i can't see any other way bar giving us so much rage we can get SB and SBar up 100% of the time and still have rage to spare.

Takethecake
05-09-2012, 02:32 PM
We're going to try Shield Block using the charge system that we've tried for a few abilities, such as the monk Roll. This one may feel too different, but we'll see. What it means is you can use Shield Block twice in a row, but then pay a 15 sec cooldown. (The first use will start its cooldown as soon as its used.) This mechanic should let you chain together two Shield Blocks but not keep it up 100% of the time.We think this rotation feels better and more traditionally Prot, but let us know how it feels to you.

It sounds like they intend to put a cooldown on it that will effectively work exactly like the dk rune system. It didn't go in on the last build but if it did go live it wouldn't be so bad. The question is if the second charge starts it's 15 second cooldown after the first is refreshed or if they can be refreshing simultaneously.

Bigbad
05-09-2012, 11:30 PM
That sounds nice would be 80% uptime if they refresh simultaneously. Read it a bit different at first but what you said makes sense :)

Dreadski
05-10-2012, 06:11 AM
The next build has more changes. The tiered barrier is coming, shield block will be able to be used twice in 15 seconds, devastate procs snb, revenge does not but generates 10 rage, snb reduced to 5 extra rage, 20 rage glyph added, unwavering sentinel no longer generates rage, second wind becomes more interesting and piercing howl gets a buff.

Pagezero
05-10-2012, 10:03 AM
Like Bigbad said I think if it works like the Monk's roll it will be max 80% uptime, after 7.5 secs you will get one charge back: 6/7.5=80%.

The current form of Second Wind is not very exciting but does heal a lot, a HoT at 35% health is more interesting but for PvE I don't think it's going to heal very much. Neither form is going to save you, the previous form seemed like it was much better but I guess that's the point.

Previously I wasn't sure which of the three I was going to take, now I am pretty sure it won't be Second Wind.

fengosa
05-10-2012, 02:21 PM
If you look at how dk runes and monk rolls work, charges regen 1 at a time. I expect SB to be the same way such that 40% uptime(6/15) is the norm and 80% is the uptime is the exception when you have spare charges and the circumstance calls for it. This system rewards timely use of SB along with your other CDs while 80% guaranteed uptime just promotes spamming it mindlessly.

Just basing of how previous classes work and which model provides more interesting gameplay don't get to attached to the idea that charges happen every 7.5 secs. We'll have to wait to see exactly how it gets implemented but I believe savage defense has a charge based structure as well so I might make a premade guardian druid when I get home to test it out.

Dreadski
05-12-2012, 05:17 PM
Revenge is very lame right now. Let's make a list:

-Grants 10 rage
-Usable after a dodge or parry (not block, and I have about 19 parry and 6% dodge)
-Procs nothing

So we have devastate with no cost, high damage and procs SnB, and then shield slam which does shittons of damage and procs ultimatum, so it seems revenge to me would remain lower on the priority list unless in a rage-starved state. So it's kind of like it is now.

Tengenstein
05-12-2012, 05:20 PM
to me this feels crap. in single target tanking we feel very rage starved. in AoE we feel abundant, and you can pretty much macro SS in to everything and after the first use of SB theres no chance of you clipping it. feels very faceroll to me.

Pagezero
05-12-2012, 08:50 PM
I agree, the previous setup of 60% S&B Revenge and Ultimatum on Devastate was much better. It made Revenge and Devastate feel different, right now it's SS and just spam Rev or Dev, doesn't really matter what you hit. Previously if SS and Rev were coming off CD close to each other, you always wanted to do SS first and do Revenge after for the S&B. This was a lot more rewarding, and was more of what they always say, easy to play but hard to master.

Plus Revenge is pretty much useless if you quest/farm in Prot spec with DPS gear and it's way too strong of tanking multiple mobs.

I am also not sure of the changes to Shield Block either, I thought it was going to be like the Monks Roll in that it got one charge back in half the CD period. Right now it really has a 15 sec CD but wait you can chain two together, max uptime is going to be 40%, maybe this is fine, but just give it a 15 sec CD, the charges seems odd.

I am putting together a post for the official forums, it worries me that not many people are complaining about the current setup.

Airowird
05-13-2012, 03:25 AM
I am also not sure of the changes to Shield Block either, I thought it was going to be like the Monks Roll in that it got one charge back in half the CD period. Right now it really has a 15 sec CD but wait you can chain two together, max uptime is going to be 40%, maybe this is fine, but just give it a 15 sec CD, the charges seems odd.

I am putting together a post for the official forums, it worries me that not many people are complaining about the current setup.The charges actually makes for more dynamic options. If it was a single CD, you'ld be 'forced' to just make sure you keep it on CD all the time and it'll always be 6s SB, 9s without, repeat. At least now you can cover a large damage spike better and recover afterwards.

About the complaining: I simply gave up. The lost me weeks ago in their design intent and half the time when I read changes I just feel like they are throwing mechanics at the community and see what sticks. The fact DK Mastery is currently the only one without DR is just proof that they don't test mechanics against theory crafting.

Tengenstein
05-13-2012, 10:40 AM
I've already thrown a Post (http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/4008281023) in the Beta class forums, but i honestly feel the same way was Airo bout them.

Pagezero
05-13-2012, 08:43 PM
I just feel like they are throwing mechanics at the community and see what sticks.

I just hope the current form doesn't stick, I can't believe core class mechanics aren't pretty much done by the time beta hits.

Tengenstein
05-13-2012, 08:53 PM
I don't know anyone who likes the current form, what I think needs to happen;



Make SB a 3second buff increasing Block chance to 100%, 2 charges ,stacks to 5, lasts 3 second, costs 30 rage
Shield Slam: Generates 20 rage. hits 1 target. Hard.
Sword and Board: 30% chance to proc off Devastate and Revenge, refreshes the CD of Shield Slam and increase its Rage generation to 25. lasts 2 seconds.
Revenge: 6second CD, Hits up to 3 enemies, only available after a Dodge/Parry/Block, generates 10 rage if used within 3.5 seconds of it becoming available
Ultimatum: 1o% chance to proc off Shield Slam, Revenge and Devastate, 1 second duration, reduces the CD and cost of next HS and Cleave by 100%


Average SnB cycle is ~5.55s and contains the following distribution of abilities:
1 Shield Slam
1.4596 Devastate
0.73 Revenge

this gives us around ~10 RPS rage income though is quite variable, tacked on to our 5RPS from white swings this would be enough to get 100% uptime on shield block and some rage left over, assuming you're reacting to your Revenge and SnB proc fast enough and banking rage to keep you through the dry spots, If your reacting very well you'd need to burn some extra rage with HS/Cleave to stop yourself capping out. if you don't react to your procs you're pretty much screwed and won't be able to keep SB up. You're probably going to need Hit/Expertise caps. and Parry/Dodge are going to drastically effect the rate at which you can maintain shield block, and whilst Haste/crit maintain their present effect on white swing rage generation and Mastery maintains its poor increase on Block chance but its decent effect on crit block chance (essentially Bloc value) and we balance warrior's baked in survivability around having 100% uptime on shield block.

Poor rotation = squish
Good rotation = living
Excellent rotation = living and kicking !@#

The fact that SB is capped means that macros to auto dump onto SB will be less than optimal, and having an odd numbered cap(5) and even number generated(2) would make some interesting choices if the current stack is at 4, as you need to wait until after the next block or waste half of the charges generated by your next Shield block so maybe a HS/Cleave would be a better use of rage.

Edit: and Stick an ICD on the rate we can lose charges, Like Bone shield something like 1 per second 1.5 seconds or something so we can actually survive AoE packs.

sifuedition
05-14-2012, 09:42 AM
Make SB a 3second buff increasing Block chance to 100%, 2 charges ,stacks to 5, lasts 3 second, costs 30 rag

This is back to full ctc but based on rotation instead of gear. The issue I see with that is how do you now balance paladins in particular and bears and dks to a lesser extent?

Dreadski
05-14-2012, 09:55 AM
I think they should buff block and crit block, like make it 50%/80% or something and then buff the AP scaling of Barrier to make it soak roughly a full melee swing, at the very least of a ?? mop boss. Just bring us more in line with DKs. That would also justify the current iteration of the charges and CD, imo.

Tengenstein
05-14-2012, 10:15 AM
This is back to full ctc but based on rotation instead of gear. The issue I see with that is how do you now balance paladins in particular and bears and dks to a lesser extent?

through better mastery scaling.

Dreadski
05-14-2012, 10:16 AM
through better mastery scaling.

"balance" or "working as intended"

sifuedition
05-14-2012, 10:19 AM
through better mastery scaling.

But this would mean warriors can ctc cap (with a skilled rotation) regardless of gear and paladins would need to hit a certain gear break point.

Some implications:
Warriors survive better while leveling/gearing.
Warriors could conceivably gain advantages through things like equiping dps gear, etc and maintain ctc (pve and pvp consequences)
Warriors would have the drawback that those who can't get the rotations just right lose survivability regardless of gear level. This may not even be driven by skill but possibly a funky raid mechanic.

Tengenstein
05-14-2012, 10:26 AM
Or decrease the passive damage reduction of defensive stance. or boost the dmg reduction of Blood Presence/ Bear from/pally def stance


Warriors survive better whilsts leveling/gearing - yay finally we have the tools that allowus to solo the multi person quests like palalies and DKS....

Warriors can equip DPS gear - like we aren't already contemplating that for rage gen with the MoP model.

Warriors go squish if they can't do the rotation - bad palyers are bad oh noes. Active mitigation is active, doing it right rewards extra survivability...isn't that the whole point? funky raid mechanices mean warriors aren't on equal ground as tanks is nothing new.

Vonarie
05-14-2012, 10:50 AM
When have they ever used the model, do a good rotation and live? Not going to happen, it sounds good to good players but lets face it they do not make changes that punish bad players.

Dreadski
05-14-2012, 11:20 AM
but lets face it they do not make changes that punish bad players.
Pretty sure the class is an uber-baddie gating system. If ya can't survive as a protection warrior given the other variables are covered, quit. Lol.
/sarcasm

Vonarie
05-14-2012, 11:40 AM
I agree I relish the days when things were harder I enjoyed the game more then. But those days are so far gone there is no point hoping they will even return in a small way.

Aggathon
05-14-2012, 11:52 AM
When have they ever used the model, do a good rotation and live? Not going to happen, it sounds good to good players but lets face it they do not make changes that punish bad players.

Which is why they've made DPS rotations more complex (warlocks going from shadowbolt spam in TBC to some insanely complex rotations that even involv pet swapping for demo) or healer rotations more complex (used to be spam your downrank heal in TBC, then in WotLK it went to spam your max rank heal, and now it's use your heals based on mana usage and AoE). I see no reason why you can't make tanking rotations more complex. Right now if it wasn't for fading light, I could probably just go afk for the last half of ultraxion and it wouldn't matter, that's TOO easy.

I love the new model, I just hope it works out well.

Tengenstein
05-14-2012, 12:26 PM
When have they ever used the model, do a good rotation and live? Not going to happen, it sounds good to good players but lets face it they do not make changes that punish bad players.

That's exactly what GC has been tooting about since they made the threat change over half a year ago. that tanks doing a decent rotation should be harder to kill. Thats what he's said his goal for tanks is, and while i beleive GC is quite capable of lying I'd rather hope he isn't.

EDIT and it's not like the rotation above isn't any really much more coplex than the current one on live. its based on the current one on live, except it havas a SB takes the place of HS, you have a battle trance for HS, and you don't ahve to worry about IR. the main difference is that rather than a good rotation meaing you do more DPS, it means you are harder to kill.

sifuedition
05-14-2012, 02:26 PM
It just seems to me that the tanks and healers are more balanced than they have ever been (I started at the tail end of BC). I don't think they want to abandon that for anything. I don't see how to make these mecanics, which I actually think sound ok, work for the other tank classes and maintain balance. I play all four tank classes and I'm sure I'll have a brewmaster too, so I really don't think I'm biased to say that I want them all equal even if my pally is my main. This really isn't about him being weakest, as it appears he will be in MoP, so much as I want them all capable. I realize we're not paid developers here able to clock 8 hr days being paid to think these things up, but I can't see balancing this without making a pally a warrior with pink class text.

Tengenstein
05-14-2012, 03:04 PM
I just can't see the problem TBH, most of it was a rip off of Deathknight blood/bone shield mechanics with the aim of making warriors rely on being twitchy.something they really aren't in beta at the moment, and punishing poor play. Warriors feel retarded its eithe r spam Rev or Dev whilst waiting for SS to be of CD, you can mcro in your rage dumps and booya we're almost as complicated as an arcane mage.

Gregasaurous
05-16-2012, 11:05 PM
When have they ever used the model, do a good rotation and live? Not going to happen, it sounds good to good players but lets face it they do not make changes that punish bad players.


Yeah, i think history has proven multiple times that blizzard cares more about their overall income than making compelling content for a small percentage of the player-base. Quite right that is should be this way, but everyone keeps speaking of a time when Raiding was hard AND the casual players had plenty of content on their plates.

Dreadski
05-17-2012, 08:47 AM
I'd feel better about casual raiding if they'd add either a 10 man raid finder option or a dumber-than-normal mode for the absolute casual. Then you could go back and make normal something that heroic guilds aren't clearing in week 1 and heroic something that would take Korea more than a month. By all means, cater to your purse, Blizz. Pet Battles is proof that you like doing that, but please try to throw the rest of us a bone, preferably a better bone than the idea to make heroics hard so you lose subscriptions aka Cata.

Tengenstein
05-28-2012, 12:22 PM
up to 15 CDs now as prot....thats alot of CDs

Dreadski
05-28-2012, 01:04 PM
up to 15 CDs now as prot....thats alot of CDs

I haven't been keeping up the past few weeks, what do we have no other than Demo, SW, SR, LS and RC?

Tengenstein
05-28-2012, 04:50 PM
Skull Banner, Vigilance, Avatar, Deadly Calm, Recklessness, Disarm, Demoralizing Banner, Enraged Regen, Shattering Throw, and disrupting/staggering Shout.

Theotherone
05-30-2012, 01:29 PM
Concerning Talents.

What do you think of not taking Last Stand? Had a Prot Warrior in LFR the other day who was not spec'd into Last Stand (I'm bad I like to take a look at the tanks I'm going to heal before we start, just get an idea of what I'm in for), when I asked (I was nice, I was curious) he said "it's a waste in raids because of Rallying Cry being on the same cooldown."

I was under the impression that if you have two warriors in raid, you have one warrior pop Rallying Cry and you, as the tank, pop Last Stand and they stack. I could be wrong.

Anyway, anyone have an opinion on this?

Dreadski
05-30-2012, 02:29 PM
That guy's an idiot.

Also, you won't be speccing last stand in mop. It's included no matter what, and only shares an internal cd with RC.

Tengenstein
05-30-2012, 02:41 PM
Rallying cry is a pro-actively used Raid CD, its useful for letting the raid survive pules of extreme raid damage, Last stand is both a proactive and a reactive tank CD, it can be used pro-actively to allow the tank to survive extreme pulses of tank damage, or it can be used reactively as an "ohSHIT!"panic button to cover unexpected bursts on the tank. Rallying cry does not offer the tank as much health for as long as Last Stand does, it is an inferior Tank CD and a vastly inferior panic button, and whislt you can use rallying Cry as a raid wide panic button, in reality you using a raid wide buff to attempt to save a single player, which is kinda wasteful. A Prot Warrior is the worst spec to provide this CD as he sacrifice the most to provide it and wherever possible an alternative spec should provide the raid CD instead.

I can kinda understand not taking Last stand for LFR, if you reason that at no point should a competent raid team really face a tank burst scenario, but as you can't really gaurantee the LFR group is a competent raid team the argument doesn't hold to much water. and yes the buffs Last stand and Rallying cry stack multiplicatively together.

I was really hoping the active tanking in MoP would see bad tanks likes the one you met in LFR go squish, but urg it really doesn't seem like it's happening.

Gregasaurous
06-01-2012, 08:39 AM
up to 15 CDs now as prot....thats alot of CDs
So we're keeping our 2 dozen key-bound abilities? Cool.

Aggathon
06-01-2012, 08:44 AM
We're the batman of tanking classes.

Tengenstein
06-01-2012, 08:46 AM
3 rotational abilities, 15 cds, 4 rage dumps, charge, 2 buff shouts, zerker rage, shockwave, Thunderclap, hamstring and execute. Huge toolbox, most of it we'll never use though...

Gregasaurous
06-01-2012, 09:24 AM
You left out Heroic Leap?

Airowird
06-01-2012, 04:58 PM
The real question is, how many buttons can you scratch out without really noticing a change? Right now I'm looking at half of the buttons and just thinking "Hmmm, but in any situation I can use that one, I'll be too busy mashing the other 3 I could use and have more effect!"

Gregasaurous
06-01-2012, 10:32 PM
True, but it think the point of having a toolbox isn't necessarily that you use everything in it constantly, it's that if you want it at any given moment without having to walk back to the shed to get it, it's right there.

Airowird
06-02-2012, 06:21 AM
To stay in the toolbox/shed reference... :)

Yet a heavy wrench you rarely ever use is nothing but dead weight that burdens you without providing any increase in efficiency or speed in your normal day-to-day work. At some point it is better/easier to simply not carry that extra wrench and simply solve it differently with your 'regular' tools should you encounter a situation where you might actually use it. e.g. Ethernet cable pliers isn't something you generally put in your toolbox and I've fixed connections without it just fine.

truculent
06-02-2012, 07:17 AM
that would depend on the toolbox. If the "toolbox" is bartender.... the extra weight really isn't weighing anyone down.

The correct question is why is blizzard forcing us into a 3 button mashfest. usually, instead of addressing the expressed concern, they come out with "hey gais guess wat! your right, this is broken... so we're gonna remove it! fixing things is an old world concept."

of course by that point everyone is too busy arguing the mute point of which abilities not on the magical list of 5 are most under powered and who killed rag pre-nurf.

Tengenstein
06-02-2012, 07:36 AM
I don't really mind the 3 button mashfest, but i really feel we need to be punished for not using rage correctly. My main ocncern is that you can macro SHield block into the 3 buttons, and then just use SBar if you ever end up at >80 rage, which you usually won't unless you ahve avatar up.

Gregasaurous
06-03-2012, 04:22 AM
Our toolbox is a Marry Poppins carpet bag. GG.

And yes Teng, the rotation system they have thought up for us is looking stupid and boring and i'm sure i'll just make a maccro or two that will make my tanking rotation equivilant to the 4.2 arcane mage. GC said he wanted to make tank rotations more like DK's: fun, interactive, and requiring some skill. Managing personal buffs and boss debuffs is none of those things. If i wanted to do that, I would play an affliction lock.

Tengenstein
06-03-2012, 06:17 AM
oh its like a DKs, just without the whole managing Deathstrikes and diseases. Also Stormbolt i was expecting something like the old Hammer of Wrath, No it looks like you are actually throwing a thunderbolt. Avatar's not quite so great, 12 seconds of 50% extar rage is nice and being all big bornze and unsnarable is cool, but i don't really feel the defensive benefit yet. Maybe once i get some more hit/expertist/haste it will.

Gregasaurous
06-03-2012, 04:24 PM
I think the major goal was for it to be interactive though, and i don't really feel they're accomplishing that. Active =/= Interactive.

Tengenstein
06-03-2012, 04:50 PM
can anyone find GCs "goal for tanking" i recall it being from around last september? the only real skill component seems to me is wheter you want to pop Sbar or SB, Since against weak hitting mobs Sbar might actually be better than SB. Aslo can Sbar stack like Bloodshield can?

Gregasaurous
06-04-2012, 10:12 PM
This is the one posted in December of 2010 where GC first talked about how the current threat model wasn't really what they wanted:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/1693171

This was August 2011 where GC elaborated and talked about how they were planning to replace active threat with active mitigation so to speak:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/3300854/Dev_Watercooler_--_Threat_Level_Midnight-8_16_2011#blog

This was the one from September 2011 where he elaborated on the new mitigation ideas:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/3401304/Dev_Watercooler_--_Bloody_Mitigation-8_31_2011#blog

Tengenstein
06-05-2012, 03:50 AM
Challenging but not frustrating.......i think they've missed the mark with our current mechaincs, it's not really challenging, and their isn't much "risk of failure"

Gregasaurous
06-06-2012, 09:07 PM
Well, as stated previously, how challenging are they really going to make it? Bottem line, they still gotta make some bank. What comes to mind here are those glyphs Lore is so fond of talking about that make your class "easier" but "not quite as strong"......

Tengenstein
06-07-2012, 09:20 AM
we don't have any skillshot or Inquistion type glyphs.

Gregasaurous
06-07-2012, 10:16 PM
I meant in respect to our defensive mechanics.... though as a tank i guess that would just be straight bad. IDK

Tengenstein
06-16-2012, 02:47 AM
Done some messing about, I've currently trying the PVP gear, since it has a ridiculous amount of stats on it compared to the HC gear and have reforged for hot/exp caps and then parry. My god does having your shield slams always connect make life so much easier. I've also noticed that Strength gems give about the same amount of parry chance as parry rating gems making the latter redundant as as something you want to gem. I don't think parry from strength is subject to diminishing returns so it shouldn't be as hard as it is now to keep our parry/dodge rating balanced.

EDIT: it appears Defensive stance produces NO RAGE from White swings at the moment.

Tengenstein
06-19-2012, 08:00 AM
OK so I did some maths and then compared our rage gens with druids, and i'm not sure i like the answer. As far as my limited snooping around our bear brothers they get 0.8-1.6rps from mangle, (crits however generate 400% normal rage) and get 2.4rps form white swings (which give 350% on crit). Warriors on the other had generate 2.5-7.5 RPS from our SS/Rev/SnB rotation.

This kinda leads me to beleive that tanking warriors not getting rage from white swings is intentional. I really really don't like this. We're really going to be at the mercy of the RNG as to how much rage we get. THis strikes me as being really really bad as far as a design for a tank goes. as a warrior a single missed/parried/dodged shield slam could screw could mean no resources incoming for 12 seconds, as a druid you'd have to fail to connect 5 times to suffer the same starvation. and yes we;ve got things like zerker rage and our crit blocks, but a fair amount of that could be wasted: you could proc enrage just after you put SS on CD and if we're not lucky with rev or SnB procs were not gonna get another rage gen until the next SS 6 seconds later, by which time our 5 second enrage will have worn off. Warrior rage gen is just too dependant on landing those rage producing shield slams, far too many eggs in one basket

On and it also totally screws over DPS warriors going def stance to emergency tank anything.

Grombrindal
06-19-2012, 11:15 AM
I thought I had read somewhere that parries still gave rage, but misses/dodges don't... is that not the case anymore?

Tengenstein
06-19-2012, 11:19 AM
Parry and Dodge do give you rage indirectly; they let you use Revenge, but if you don't press the button you don't get the rage.

Ltranger
06-19-2012, 11:38 AM
Just random question, for threat (when tanking a boss) is it worth it to use retaliation? I've been trying to get a good rotation down so i can keep up threat with just about any class, but I'm struggling against a druid (gms wife who has 3 tanks...pally warrior and druid now,) who under gears me by a little. He's the one tank I've been struggling against lately. Granted both his pally and war both out gear me substantially, so he knows what he's doing. (Both have heroic gear and a 400+ ilvl.)

So i guess my question is, what can i do to improve threat? Its near impossible to keep up if I'm not getting hit because lack of rage. Is recklessness worth popping in the beginning?

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

leethaxor
06-19-2012, 11:39 AM
Parry and Dodge do give you rage indirectly; they let you use Revenge, but if you don't press the button you don't get the rage.
so the fact that you have to do things in order to get resources is the problem? I don't see the problem it forces warriors to use their offensive abilities in order to use their defensive, its a good substitute for the horrible threat system

Tengenstein
06-19-2012, 12:42 PM
I was trying to infer that the event of a parry occurring doesn't give rage, but allows the us of something that would generate rage. I was not actually complaining about that bit. Though the fact we can't stop DPS without sacraficing our own survivability is kind of bum.

EDIT: the parry revenge thing is actually one the few bits i like about how we presently gain rage, I just wish it wasn't so damn dependant on getting lucky with sword and board procs.

@LTranger, Retaliation generally isn;t worth much as it dodge/parried attack won;t trigger it and bosses hit kinda slowely, it generally won't hurt, retaliation is gone in MoP. Recklessness is nice if you boss aggro as the extra damage taken stack vengeance faster and give you more rage, the 50% crit aint bad either. the loss of the increased damage taken is kinda a two edged sword in MoP

Roughrock
06-20-2012, 12:51 AM
OK so I did some maths and then compared our rage gens with druids, and i'm not sure i like the answer. As far as my limited snooping around our bear brothers they get 0.8-1.6rps from mangle, (crits however generate 400% normal rage) and get 2.4rps form white swings (which give 350% on crit). Warriors on the other had generate 2.5-7.5 RPS from our SS/Rev/SnB rotation.

This kinda leads me to beleive that tanking warriors not getting rage from white swings is intentional. I really really don't like this. We're really going to be at the mercy of the RNG as to how much rage we get. THis strikes me as being really really bad as far as a design for a tank goes. as a warrior a single missed/parried/dodged shield slam could screw could mean no resources incoming for 12 seconds, as a druid you'd have to fail to connect 5 times to suffer the same starvation. and yes we;ve got things like zerker rage and our crit blocks, but a fair amount of that could be wasted: you could proc enrage just after you put SS on CD and if we're not lucky with rev or SnB procs were not gonna get another rage gen until the next SS 6 seconds later, by which time our 5 second enrage will have worn off. Warrior rage gen is just too dependant on landing those rage producing shield slams, far too many eggs in one basket

Dear Tengenstein,

Thanks for your constructive comment. Though my thoughts are that does not have to be neccesarily bad for protection warriors to have some RNG on their rage income. First of all, shield block has (some sort of) a cooldown, which prevents you from having 100% up-time. Blizzard stated that it is indeed the intention of not being able to have a 100% up-time on shield block, cause then it would just feel as a mandatory buff like Thunderclap.

If we don't have a 100% up-time, there will of course be moments that we don't have shield block up. It would not make sense if we would be two-shotted when that happens, that does not sounds as the intent.

If we then look at the odds of the situation you described: Nůt having zerg rage available, nůt having battle/commanding shout available, nů parry's, no dodges and no critical blocks and then having your shield slam miss/parry/dodge. Well, sure it will happen at some point troughout a fight, but it is unlikely that it would be very common.

And Ūf it happens, we are not dead right away, you can see your shield slam miss/parried/dodged, you can take a look at your current rage, and then you have still have some viable options left. For example, demoralizing banner, demoralizing shout, shield wall and even shield barrier when you do have some rage. (just not enough for shield block, which is where we talk about)

I have not tested this in beta though. (currently leveling a new warrior toon there) So it is still dependant on the exact numbers. But as a general thing, having some RNG in rage income is not bad per se. And it makes expertise an interesting option, which will make gearing more interesting as well imho.

Kind Regards,
Roughrock

Raysere
06-20-2012, 01:47 AM
I've been reforging for hit cap and 26 expertise thus far on beta. Feels as though (semi-) dependable rage generators will be of more survivability benefit than the loss of Dodge/Parry/Mastery needed to attain it.

Side note: Are you sure Reck still increases damage taken? I could have sworn it no longer stated it did in the tooltip in the current build.

Roughrock
06-20-2012, 03:10 AM
Side note: Are you sure Reck still increases damage taken? I could have sworn it no longer stated it did in the tooltip in the current build.

As far as I know, the extra damaga taken from Recklessness has been removed quite a while ago in beta.

Roughrock

Takethecake
06-20-2012, 08:31 AM
It seem silly to have two limiting factors on how often we can use shield block. So we are limited by our RPS and the actual cooldown on shield block?

I would think a more entertaining system would be to allow us to generate slightly more rage in order to reward a good rotation with the ability to possibly throw in either a few extra heroic strikes or a shield barrier.

If he limiting factor overall for shield block is our RPS what's the point of even having a cooldown on it? Or do we generate enough rage when hit/exp capped in order to keep shieldblock on cooldown?

Raysere
06-20-2012, 09:37 AM
It seem silly to have two limiting factors on how often we can use shield block. So we are limited by our RPS and the actual cooldown on shield block?

I would think a more entertaining system would be to allow us to generate slightly more rage in order to reward a good rotation with the ability to possibly throw in either a few extra heroic strikes or a shield barrier.

If he limiting factor overall for shield block is our RPS what's the point of even having a cooldown on it? Or do we generate enough rage when hit/exp capped in order to keep shieldblock on cooldown?

There isn't a cooldown on it per-say, but you are limited to using it twice in the span of 15 seconds. I think that limitation simply exists to try and discourage doing silly/crazy things to try and get more uptime than intended while trying not to impose upon 'intellegent' SB usage to better mitigate specific factors in encounters. I don't really find that limitation to be a problem during my beta shenanigans thus far, I don't often find myself in a situation where I've enough rage to use SB often enough to be limited by it. It should be mentioned that Shield Barrier has no such limitation.

Tengenstein
06-20-2012, 10:22 AM
do people even bother reading my posts?

Side note: Are you sure Reck still increases damage taken? I could have sworn it no longer stated it did in the tooltip in the current build.
Last line of my last post reads;


the loss of the increased damage taken is kinda a two edged sword in MoP


Or do we generate enough rage when hit/exp capped in order to keep shieldblock on cooldown?

The most rage productive cycles for Prot are SS>Rev>Rev>Rev which produces 45 rage per 6 seconds (7.5rps), or (SNB)SS>Dev>(SNB)SS>Dev which produces 40 rage ever six seconds, (6.666RPS). Enrage will increase the RPS by 50%. So yes, as long as we have the perfect procs and are enraged 100% of the time we would be able to have SB up 100% of the time bar its CD. The chances of having the perfect proc rate and 100% enrage uptime aswell are somewhat slim, so in reality, outside of Avatar it's not really possible to use SB even on CD.


Though my thoughts are that does not have to be neccesarily bad for protection warriors to have some RNG on their rage income....

If we then look at the odds of the situation you described: Nůt having zerg rage available, nůt having battle/commanding shout available, nů parry's, no dodges and no critical blocks and then having your shield slam miss/parry/dodge. Well, sure it will happen at some point troughout a fight, but it is unlikely that it would be very common.

Some RNG is fine, however the difference between how much rage we produce based on rotational procs is 400%, you have no control over whether you get SnB procs and extremely limited control over Rev and enrage procs. and without hit and expertise you have 22.5% chance that even if you could force all your procs 100% of the time you would still produce 0 rage. 22.5% of your shield slams and your Revs produce no rage? 22.5% of the time your Enrage does nothing. not having the hit/expertise caps feel like not having the def cap in wrath. Yes they should be viable threat stats. No, they should not feel like an entry barrier to tanking


And Ūf it happens, we are not dead right away, you can see your shield slam miss/parried/dodged, you can take a look at your current rage, and then you have still have some viable options left. For example, demoralizing banner, demoralizing shout, shield wall and even shield barrier when you do have some rage. (just not enough for shield block, which is where we talk about)

In a pinch i would use Demo banner, its a raid CD so It's usually going to be saved for some specific point in an encounter, Demo shout is fine but you're gonna find yourself defenceless alot more often than its available, same for shield wall and even shield barrier. You are running on fumes, even with the hit/exp cap, and doing your rotation perfectly you cannot use Shield block on CD you just do not produce the rage.and the problem with using shield barrier is that it has a hidden rage cost. with out shield block up you don;t block as often, which means you don't crit block as often which means you don't enrage as often, and with my current avoidance and mastery I'm 3 times as likely to enrage with SB up as I am without it. If you have to use rage on Shield Barrier you'll find you really have to leave you defences down for a long time if you want to afford to use shield block. which kinda forces you to either cycle shield blocks which leaves you open a lot of the time. or you end up praying you can afford a cheap Shield barrier every 5 seconds or so.

Tengenstein
06-25-2012, 06:46 AM
Ponderings. ANd i've hard 3 hours sleep so corrections will be necassary

I'm slowly building a spreadsheet to give me some guesstimates of how our rage is going to play out. Assuming we aren't weaving shouts or TC or dragon roars and are just using Shield Slam (SS), Revenge (R) and Devastate (D), we have could model our as a set of cylcle, that always end in shield slam. which would usually mean we have 6 second cycles but occaisionally would have 4.5 seconds or 3 second cycles. If we treat ones ending with shield slam as seperate from cycles ending in an SnB boosted Shield Slam (SNB) we have 15 possible cycles;



R R R SS
R R D SS
R R D SNB
R D R SS
D R R SS
D D R SS
D R D SS
D R D SNB
R D D SS
R D D SNB
D D D SS
D D D SNB
D D SNB
D R SNB
D SNB

someone make sure i Havne't missed any.

We can easily calculate the Rage per Second (RPS) of each cycle, each R being worth 10, SS being 15 and SnB as 20 divided by the cycle length of usaully 6, sometimes 4.5 and rarely 3 seconds. what i need to calculate the given chance that any cycle will occur and for that i need to know the chance that revengewill be available on any given GCD. that's where i'm coming undone is it to much of a stretch to assume that


1.5 / boss swing speed * (parry% + Dodge%) = Revenge proc chance

Tengenstein
07-07-2012, 04:17 AM
So, with a little thievery i have the beginnings a of a rage calculator, needs rather a lot of smoothing out but meh. works well enough for a beta spreadsheet :P

Airowird
07-07-2012, 05:28 PM
For the SB uptime cells: You can enable Iteration through Tools > Options > (depends on version, but something mathy) > Iterations
Enabling it will allow circular references as those you are trying to do in B41 & B43.

Oh, and you're welcome ;-)

Tengenstein
07-07-2012, 06:05 PM
I'm kinda disapointed that that's the only comment it's gotten. There's gotta be mistakes in there :P


EDIT: It does kinda show just how well we scale with boss haste though, gonna enjoy PVP against dual wield specs.

Airowird
07-08-2012, 01:54 AM
Not just boss haste but also multi-tanking!
But that also means that we'll be shitfaced bad vs caster mobs ... oh the joy...

Tengenstein
07-08-2012, 08:11 AM
20% enrage uptime against caster mobs is gonna hurt, perhaps they should add a enrage proc off spell reflects or interupts.

Gregasaurous
07-08-2012, 04:57 PM
Well, since we've never really had many reliable tools for multiple caster mobs, just EHP, i don't see our decreased enrage uptime against those being that big of a deal. Enrage proc off an interrupt would be really nice though.

Tengenstein
07-08-2012, 07:15 PM
On live at least we get some extra rage from casters becuase they ignore our defences, and spell reflect gives us a bucket load. in beta my 450ilvl against a 2s swing timer boss i get just shy of 5.4RPS. if i increase it towards infinity we end up just shy of 4.8RPS, thats a 10% resource loss and that will drop our potential SB(ar) up time by about the same amount, whereras if we get a second target to tank(or if the boss dual wields) we jump to jsut above 5.9RPS and increase the up time on Sb(ar) to by about the same. a 10% increase on damage blocked or absorbed is a pretty large amount.



EDIT: updated the calculator, done a fair amount of clean upand stared at option screens long enough to remember some of the less basic bits of excel......and how the hell do you delete attachments in previous posts?

3435

Airowird
07-09-2012, 04:24 AM
EDIT: updated the calculator, done a fair amount of clean upand stared at option screens long enough to remember some of the less basic bits of excel......and how the hell do you delete attachments in previous posts?Edit the post, remove the [ ATTACH ] tags part.

Tengenstein
07-09-2012, 06:39 PM
Don't actually see those anywhere. anyone on the US official forums care to point out to Blizz just how meh we are and how we scale really poorely with stats but really well with mobs so that what the boss is doing still actuall makes a hug difference to us as tanks?

Tengenstein
07-09-2012, 11:55 PM
Enrage proccing when Sbar is fully consumed sound good to anyone else? Kinda like how rapture procs work?

Travelsize
07-10-2012, 02:35 AM
As long as our rage gen doesn't get nerfed to compensate (see: Disc Priests and Rapture), it would make Sbar a bit more interesting. There's probably a few tactics to get Sbar to consume the minimum amount of rage and guarantee an enrage after the first or second boss swing. Charge->SS->Sbar->shout->rev/dev/ss to Sblock etc or even glyphed charge->Sbar->boss swing->ss etc come to mind immediately.

Tengenstein
07-10-2012, 02:54 AM
I think that's a pretty convincing argument against Rapture type enrage mechanics. Not so much small Sbar at the start of a fight since we can guarantee we have both Zerker Rage and Avatar available and our first SS is going to be 45 rage so enrage for first 6 seconds are going to be wasted and small Sbar before vengenace stack is just gonna make us squishier which is kind acounter intuitive, but later in the fight we might pop a small sbar to burn some extra rage before and up enraged just becuase.

I'm starting to think its just going to have to be "when Sbar absorbs damage you have a "Mastery" chance to enrage.

Which is kind awhat we really want, something that will work to enrage us when critically blocking isn't an option, but isn't going to have a negative effect if can block, the last thing we really want is to have SB and SBar up at the same time, and Sbar fully absorb a hit that could otherwise be a critical block.

Travelsize
07-10-2012, 04:27 AM
I do know that only one mob beating on me, no matter the size, is pretty boring at the moment. High-density quest areas with moderate respawn rates are fun, but areas with low mob density and single bosses in the limited amount of instance tanking I've done so far have been pretty boring.

I mean when you think about it, we're basically tanking in the live incarnation of Fury- keep your enrage active at all costs!

I suppose it would be too simple to just have protection generate rage from taking magical damage. Mastery chance to enrage on Sbar absorb is really... boring, unintuitive, and complex?

It will be interesting to see if they do any fights with one tank on boss and one tank handling adds. If they don't include an arbitrary "keep the boss and adds apart" mechanic and make sure the add damage is very significant, you could end up in a situation where you can game the phase with a warrior offtank who picks up mobs, sits next to the boss, and dumps executes and revenges into it with a full vengeance stack. Between charge and our other mobility options we've got several good ways to pluck an errant mob out of the raid and get back to the boss quickly.

...Hang on, are Sbar absorbs slowing down the Vengeance stack? That's counterproductive.

Tengenstein
07-10-2012, 05:35 AM
I don't know.

I would assume that absorbed damage still gives vengeance as it still gives rage on live, However i recall parry streaks not giving vengeance and i know you still get rage for the damage a parry would have done, will have to test this at some point today. I don't think they'll let just generate rage from magic damage taken as it doesn't really fit with the whole "active mitigation" gimmick tanks are getting. mastery chance on Sbar may be boring and unintuitive it may be, but it works and least allows some sort of scaling with Sbar and stats. We need something to make up for the fact complete absorbs prevent parries/dodged/critical block without revenge or enrage procs we lose a good 30% of resource gain.

Also noticed the calculator has an error in calculating the final RPS; B44 reads =(B38*(1+(0.5*(B37/100)))..... it shouldn't have the /100.

3438

Airowird
07-10-2012, 03:39 PM
It's simple, SBar should not be checked before avoidance/block. Absorbing damage that would never actually occur is stupid and I recall a similar discussion about disc priests in tBC where shields were absorbing 'too much' damage, causing them to be useless and if they can fix that, SBar should work the same way, right?

The Vengeance thing is a bit more complicated. Because it gives prot wars (and DKs) more Vengeance than Druids/Paladins, but then what about their self-heals? It would need to be tested to be sure, maybe give us a rough idea about how much Vengeance each tank actually gets when they got the "expected" active tanking damage reduction running.

Travelsize
07-10-2012, 09:33 PM
Sbar does not appear to affect the vengeance stack, limited testing done by letting mobs beat on me with and without using sbar. This is how it should be of course. We still need something to get enrage from magic heavy bosses though.

If you're low on health, have sblock going, and have rage, you should probably put up an Sbar. Aside from rage consumption and overhealing there doesn't seem to be any downside to having Sbar and Sblock running simultaneously.

Tengenstein
07-10-2012, 10:17 PM
That's good to know.

I keep looking back at this entry (http://sacredduty.net/2012/04/27/warrior-block-calculations-part-3/) in Theck's blog and thinking it would it would probably be a simpler way of working out enrage uptimes. particularly for arms/fury,

I was doing some testing to work out rage gains from zerker stance are (2.5 x base weapons speed from white swings and 1 rage for every percent of our total health lost) and it turns out we have a new spell school; Divine, that doesn't cause any rage gains, anyone care to post that on the US official forums?

Tengenstein
07-14-2012, 02:44 AM
The recent Revenge change is pure awesome. Got myself the hit/exp hard caps and against a level 90 that isn't even targeting you, we can use SB on CD and still have enough left over. to squeeze in the occasional SBar. Now granted this is the situation where this change has the biggest effect, thats kinda the point, where our rage is gimped the most we now aren't all that gimped.

kopcap
07-14-2012, 05:25 AM
Nice. Now lets wait and see how they gonna ruin it. Taking bets on "A successful dodge or parry will reduce the cooldown on Revenge by 5%. Stacks up to 10 times."

Now a legitimate concern. Can this result in "hostile pet" for revenge generating purposes type of situation? This could potentially have some drastic effects on our OT DPS.

Tengenstein
07-14-2012, 05:46 AM
I doubt it, its almost a perfect fix for them, it has no bearing on our rage gen execpt when it actually should: either when we have nothing to parry/dodge or when we get the No SnB streaks. I'm actually consider taking the Glyph of 120 rage now as it makes rage management so much easier and almost removes the "I'm capped but i don't want to dump now becuase if i dump now i delay my next SB". I'm also kind a interested if this change means we should use Revenge>shield slam(non-SnB) for m an RPS perspective.

Tengenstein
07-20-2012, 01:48 AM
So been fiddling around with the numbers for the new 10 rage on enrage change. its a slight nerf, nothing really serious, a tad more expertise and we'll be back to where we were, still not enough to really be noticable for the lack of volume.

Until we get more than 2 mobs on us and the enrage proc goes mentaland we turn into complete gits. If someoe would be kind enough to quote the following in the class analysis feedback thread on the US forums it would be nice.

"I'm concerned that protection warrior rage gen is far too good in AoE situation, whilst I definitely support the 10 rage on enrage mechanic; its seems like it's going to normalise our RPS, and make it feel less combo pointy, I can see in situations where we have multiple mobs beating on us our rage is going to go through the roof. I fear the same is going to happen against the faster swinging melee in PVP a rogue can average 10-14 attacks over a 6 second period, in starter gear I'm avoiding maybe 30% of those, but I'm still going to be averaging about 15% critical block rate, closing to 90% uptime on enrage and allowing us to exceed the magic 10 RPS threshold. Enemy attack frequency just has too big an effect of prot warrior resource generation. and it does't really keep to any of the 3 active mitigation models you mentioned last year"

Takethecake
07-27-2012, 09:19 AM
What is everyone's thoughts on gaining savage defense from symbiosis? I guess it depends on boss mechanics... but the fact that it costs 60 rage and it is an alternative to our active mitigation (still costs 60 rage), whereas all the other tanks gain an additional cooldown, seems a bit lopsided. I guess if a heavy boss attack was fully dodge-able then it would be nice, but that's unlikely given that druids mitigation is based purely on dodge. I have a feeling most mechanics are going to ignore mastery/avoidance effects (grats dk's once again).

Plus the 2 minute cooldown on spell reflection that bear tanks get from us seems a lot excessive.

Tengenstein
07-27-2012, 05:13 PM
I think its meh, It's nice for us, but really i can't believe there won't be better classes even in a 10 man for a bear to symbiote with.

Eetabeetay
08-02-2012, 03:55 PM
Brewmaster monks gain savage defense from symbiosis, and it has no resource cost for them so I think monks are a better target than warriors if you only have one symbiosis.

Dreadski
08-02-2012, 05:58 PM
Brewmaster monks gain savage defense from symbiosis, and it has no resource cost for them so I think monks are a better target than warriors if you only have one symbiosis.

Blatant kick in the balls. Give 2 classes the same ability, but make it free for one, and the cost of normal survival mechanics for the other.

Colossal
08-03-2012, 10:17 AM
Ive been looking through the raid loot drops. ( now active in the journal )- looks like we'll have one option as a tanking weapon till the next raid tier is out.( or be forced to use a lower ilvl item - one drop with mastery from Yan-Zhu the Uncasked). - Hey nice model though!
http://mop.wowhead.com/item=86130

Tengenstein
08-03-2012, 10:24 AM
Later in tier14 (once the other 2 raid instance are open) we have the choices of
http://mop.wowhead.com/item=86987
http://mop.wowhead.com/item=87173