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ILCDI
03-19-2012, 05:03 PM
So with all this new information, and all the past information that was given at Blizzcon, I just simply can't understand why people are still hating on this expansion. Most of the complains have been all about: Pokemon, farmville, kung fu panda etc etc.

I basically did a rant video where I talk about why all the haters should stop hating and actually take the game for what it's worth. I talk about features one by one an analyze why they are good. I also talk about why Cataclysm was bad and why you shouldn't judge MoP by cata standards. I also talk about player models and why they aren't important. Last but not least I talk about why PvP is important this time around.

If you are a hater please listen to this video play it in the background and do whatever because after you listen I do think your mind will be changed. If you are a supporter also please listen to this and share it with your friends who don't think they will get this game. It really starts to get heated around 15:00

This a really interesting discussion video and I hope you all enjoy it.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHVR32fy3Jg
End Game Boss? - 2:50
The War in Warcraft - 3:40
Pandaren an April Fools Joke? - 4:00
Pokemon, Really Blizz? - 5:04
Steal Ideas From Other Games - 6:52
Pick Apart the Content - 10:17
Farmville? Really? - 11:04
Why Cataclysm Sucked - 13:25
Why Should Haters Buy MoP? - 16:05
No New Player Models? - 17:42
PvP Is Important - 18:39

Aggathon
03-19-2012, 06:01 PM
I watched your whole video...

I've been hating on MoP, here's why. It comes down to a few things.

1) It's clearly not targeted at me. And that's FINE, if they want to do side stuff like Pet battles and the Tiller faction, so be it, but that doesn't really interest me and even if I do play, I probably will never touch either of those things unless there is some sort of competitive advantage in raiding.

2) A lot of us that are hating are worried about resource conflict, which you admit in your video is an issue. Especially what you talked about with them focused a lot on 1-60 then everything else being pretty "meh" and dragonsoul being awful, HOPEFULLY, it's because they're making MoP awesome. I seriously hope that, we're just skeptical and get kind uppity about these things. We're worried that they'll spend so much time and resources on pet battles and farmville-esque stuff for a subscriber base that isn't us, that the stuff we do like will suffer because Blizz will have bitten off more than they can chew, like in Cata.

3) You can't really say it's good or bad until it's actually released. Just like my opinion that it's not going to be a great expansion, your opinion that it's going to be awesome is... well...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c

Quinthalas
03-20-2012, 06:52 AM
Agga, can you explain more in depth how it's not targeted at you?

Theotherone
03-20-2012, 07:21 AM
Personally, I'm looking forward to MoP and based on what's been said by GC, I think they understand what they did right and what they did wrong in Cata based on the player base they now have. However, I also remember the hype up to Cata and that just never deleivered. And, hopefully, they get back to engaging raids, not the crap that they put out in DS.

The fluff stuff, I'll dabble in, it might be fun - hell I like the mini-game that gives the Singing Sunflower; I like that kind of stuff as a diversion. As long as raiding gets back to being engaging, all the other stuff is just fine if it brings in subscribers and keeps their attention.

However, if raiding is more ToCish crap I'll be very disappointed.

mavfin
03-20-2012, 07:33 AM
One of the mistakes they made in Cata was that raiding became *everything* if you weren't into PvP. Now they've added other things for people to do at max level besides raiding. Some of that is 'fluff', but, ffs, it's a game. Nothing wrong with fluff. I've got friends who have spent more time getting transmog gear since 4.3 than I spent raiding in ICC. Doesn't make them wrong, and indeed says to me that 'fluff' is something Blizzard needed to add, because people will pay for it, even if *you* (the person reading these words) won't.

Also, as an aside, Blizzard confirmed that less than 1% completed Sunwell before 3.0. So, if you were a Sunwell raider when it was relevant, please consider that you are a small niche in the current playerbase, and just because you don't like a feature doesn't mean there isn't a huge market for it outside of you.

And of course, some of those who are heroic raiders don't like that, because they don't own the spotlight anymore. Too bad, so sad.

Libellus
03-20-2012, 07:40 AM
One of the mistakes they made in Cata was that raiding became *everything* if you weren't into PvP.

Trying to think of an expansion prior to Cata where this also wasn't the case.

Nope. Can't think of one.

Aggathon
03-20-2012, 07:42 AM
Also, as an aside, Blizzard confirmed that less than 1% completed Sunwell before 3.0. So, if you were a Sunwell raider when it was relevant, please consider that you are a small niche in the current playerbase, and just because you don't like a feature doesn't mean there isn't a huge market for it outside of you.

I'm well aware that I'm probably in the significant minority of player types in what I want out of this game and how the playerbase has changed since WotLK. That's why I say the majority of people may like MoP, there's just not a whole lot that excites me about it and it clearly doesn't seem aimed at my (very small) demographic. I'm okay with that as a business plan, but it doesn't mean I have to like it or play it.

Aggathon
03-20-2012, 07:44 AM
Trying to think of an expansion prior to Cata where this also wasn't the case.

Nope. Can't think of one.

^ This. The difference in previous expacs was that (until ToC basically, and they tried to do it as early as ulduar) tiered progression was how the game worked. It became especially punctuated in Cata that once a new patch came out, the previous tier was dead and might as well have been from a previous expansion.

If blizzard announced that progression is going to matter again, that you won't be able to farm heroics to get gear as good as the current tier, etc. etc. then I would pre-order MoP right now.

mavfin
03-20-2012, 07:46 AM
I'm well aware that I'm probably in the significant minority of player types in what I want out of this game and how the playerbase has changed since WotLK. That's why I say the majority of people may like MoP, there's just not a whole lot that excites me about it and it clearly doesn't seem aimed at my (very small) demographic. I'm okay with that as a business plan, but it doesn't mean I have to like it or play it.

Truth be known, I wasn't thinking of you when I wrote this, Agg, because you understand the difference between "It's not aimed at me" and "Blizzard sucks!" :D



If blizzard announced that progression is going to matter again, that you won't be able to farm heroics to get gear as good as the current tier, etc. etc. then I would pre-order MoP right now.

Actually, I think it's going to go the other way. I think there will be *more* ways to get good gear, actually. So, if exclusivity is your goal, as that staement leads me to believe, WoW will definitely be the wrong game to play in the future, I think.

Macar
03-20-2012, 04:11 PM
What defines a hater? That he hates of course. If he stopped hating he would not be defined as a hater anymore. So it is really not possible to be a hater and not hate.

Libellus
03-21-2012, 08:02 AM
If blizzard announced that progression is going to matter again, that you won't be able to farm heroics to get gear as good as the current tier, etc. etc. then I would pre-order MoP right now.

I think a return to old style progression would require raiding to be of a DS "easy mode" standard , otherwise the game would just start losing players from the other end of the skill pool. And there are more of them than there are of us. So, financials will out.

However, I agree that the current system with heroics is a mess. The loot needs to be ilvl'd differently, so heroics don't supplant raids for progression in loot but, you still have a mechanism for gearing alts or new raiders effectively that doesn't become a huge grind for guilds. Otherwise you start replicating the problems which appeared in vanilla and TBC which blighted raiders.

Using simple numbers, I'd suggest something like this (Using simple numbers for illustrative purposes).





Raid (Normal)


Raid (Heroic)

Heroic (Dungeons)/LFR?










411




Tier 14

420

425












416




Tier 15

425

430












421




Tier 16

430

435







Basically at no point does heroic loot offer equivalent rewards to the previous raid tier, but could help a raider plug some gear holes if they'd been unlucky with loot drops. Indeed, its not until the Tier 16 raids where you'd start to see heroic dungeon drops being ever so slightly better than Tier 14.

Aggathon
03-21-2012, 08:05 AM
I think a return to old style progression would require raiding to be of a DS "easy mode" standard , otherwise the game would just start losing players from the other end of the skill pool. And there are more of them than there are of us. So, financials will out.

I agree with everything except this... can you go more in to detail because I think I'm just not quite sure what you're getting at here.

feralminded
03-21-2012, 08:14 AM
While I would love for a significantly softened heroic/lfr gear curve the simple truth is that due to their exponential gear curve (which they seem to feel is completely necessary) more or less forces later heroics to quickly out-pace earlier raids. Don't be fooled by the numbers, ilevel 400 gear is NOT just 12.5% better than 350 gear ... it's much closer to 125% better (I think it's actually about 100% better). They would have to abandon the exponential curve, or soften the slope significantly for there to be any hope of spreading out the tiers. While I personally strongly support this blizzard obviously does not care for it ... for various semi-valid reasons.

However regardless of the reasons I personally feel the current wrath model is doing the game harm as we have so little content each tier and that's the ONLY content that's valid ... essentially painting themselves into a corner where we can't possibly have enough to do. I admit the BC model had major issues (alts, mid-expansion raiders) but I think they need to strike a compromise and I fear that's not going to happen in MoP.

Aggathon
03-21-2012, 08:24 AM
I agree Feral. I think there's a really simple solution to mid-expansion raiders and needing to be "keyed" for a raid. Turns out, this solution has been around for almost a decade: flagging.

Basically this comes from the Everquest "Planes of Power" expansion. Essentially in order to get to the Plane of Fire, you had to beat like the Plane of Storms and the Plane of Earth or something, idk, there was a keying process involved. BUT! if you were Keyed, you could get non-keyed people in to the Plane of Fire. I think it was roughly 20% of the raid could be not keyed. So if you had 10 players, 2 players that weren't keyed could come in.

I think for WoW models and raid sizes, 30% of the raid should be able to be "not keyed" Therefore with 10 person raids, you only need 7 people to be keyed, and for 25 man raids you only need (well 30% is 17.5, so let's round up) 18 people to be keyed. So you could still have 7 people in a 25 man raid that weren't keyed for the next tier. This solves the "damnit, we have 1 person that can't get into Hyjal/BT, now we have to go back and kill Vashj and KT" problem. Instead you wait until you have a significant amount of people (4+ in a 10 man environment or 8+ in a 25 man environment) and then just go back and do those instances once, and then they're keyed! Vwalla!

Now the question becomes: should Normal modes be able to key you to hard modes. Personally I think the normal mode of the previous tier should key you for the normal mode of the next tier and the HM of the same tier. So if you clear T14 on normal mode, then you can do T14 HMs and T15 normal modes. The problem this represents is that if you are a T15 HM guild then you'd theoretically need to do T14 normal and T15 normal to get them keyed, but I think there are ways around this. 1st) I would be okay with "Grandfather keying" aka, if you clear the HM of that content, you get the keys for all previous content. So if you are flagged in to the last boss of T15 HMs, then I think you should get the T14 HM and T15 HM and normal mode keys. Another solution: If you beat T14 HMs, you get the T15 HM key.

I think there's several viable ways to do it, and between keying that doesn't require EVERY person to be keyed, just a significant amount, and gear where item level doesn't matter as much as itemization, that previous tiers could still be easily just as relevant.

Theotherone
03-21-2012, 08:27 AM
Part of the Heroic's dropping previous tier issue is exacerbated by the ilvl's in 10 and 25 now being the same. In WoLK, at least when the 3 ICC heroics came out they dropped 232 gear which was the same ilvl as 10 man ToC but below the 245 ilvl of the 25 man and the hardmode Keeper drops in Ulduar. In fact I was looking back at the WoLK drops and even Kel'Thuzad 25 man dropped ilvl 226 gear.

Aggathon
03-21-2012, 08:31 AM
Part of the Heroic's dropping previous tier issue is exacerbated by the ilvl's in 10 and 25 now being the same. In WoLK, at least when the 3 ICC heroics came out they dropped 232 gear which was the same ilvl as 10 man ToC but below the 245 ilvl of the 25 man and the hardmode Keeper drops in Ulduar. In fact I was looking back at the WoLK drops and even Kel'Thuzad 25 man dropped ilvl 226 gear.

Those are really different beasts though. Also the HM keeper drops in Ulduar were ilevel 239. But 10s were specifically designed to be easier in WotLK. Like... it was supposed to be sort of "LFR-esque." I mean that in a gearing/ease of doing kind of way, though LFR is clearly easier to organize and is probably easier than the 10 mans in WotLK are. I hope you guys see what I'm getting here and I don't accidentally anger Ion, lol. If anything, 10 mans are proof of an accentuate the current LFR gearing issue.

Libellus
03-21-2012, 08:39 AM
I agree with everything except this... can you go more in to detail because I think I'm just not quite sure what you're getting at here.

Basically for a "pure" progression system of raiding (ala Vanilla) to work and sustain the interest in raiding we have at present, it would have to be easy mode. Otherwise the numbers will bleed off as people give up on raiding (as they did with T11) and Blizz will see another massive subs loss. If those players don't have a means to make up for their shortfall in ability (via heroics), they will QQ and quit. If players were forced to do T11 (unnerfed) before T12, I imagine we'd have seen much larger drops in subs over the course of cataclysm.

Now personally, I don't see the value add in a progression system of raiding which offers no challenge. That holds no interest for me. I'd probably decide to call it a day at that point.

As for having "keys" I agree that this needs to be managed in such a way that doesn't return to the bad old days of TBCs attunement grinds. I'm not sure keys are the answer and whether there are better incentives Blizz could introduce for completing a raid tier, that will mean players will WANT to go do it, before progressing to the next but don't stymie raid group progress if alt is needed to suddenly plug a hole in the raid. Perhaps the unlocks could be in the form of rewards in the next tier (extra loot, mounts, rep, tabbards, pet?), that only unlock once you've done the previous tier. I dunno, just think around this idea.

Aggathon
03-21-2012, 08:48 AM
I think we're roughly on the same page with keying. Let's look at the "tiered progression" as I call it.

See, I'm thinking more of a TBC model of progression than pure Vanilla, though Vanilla might be good too. I think tiers should be multi-layered, and you can even introduce "inbetween tiers" such as ZA, AQ20, and ZG did. But what I really point to more is Kara. Karazhan is sort of an enigma to me because it was such a good instance that people were HAPPY to raid it for AN ENTIRE EXPANSION. People raided that s*** for TWO YEARS and LOVED IT. So I'm not so sure that having small/easy side content like ZA10/ZG10 were, or LFR stuff then go back to your "organized" raiding of Kara until you can get to the next tier are really that bad. I think it would give people enough to do that you wouldn't see a subscription drop off.

However, it does require some damned good content design to hold people's interest like kara did. In fact, when the tiered progression of Kara was eliminated was when you first started seeing WoW sub drop off (mid-WotLK). Now, this is a correlation and that does not mean causation (http://www.xkcd.com/552/), so I could be wrong, but it's a strongly held belief/theory that I have. During all of TBC, subscriptions continued to rise at a fairly staggering rate.

Theotherone
03-21-2012, 08:55 AM
It seems like in TBC there was more to do. As all have pointed out Cata became "new tier = previous tier dead." We still run an occasioinal FL, but that's to help people get the legendary; and, well, 'cause there are plenty of people who beat DW in DS normal, who haven't seen Rag out the second phase and they want people to help them get a Rag kill.

Either they need to pump out content (in which case we'll get more DS quality raids) or give us some tier overlap, or at least a reason to run the previous tier.

Libellus
03-21-2012, 09:14 AM
See, I'm thinking more of a TBC model of progression than pure Vanilla, though Vanilla might be good too. I think tiers should be multi-layered, and you can even introduce "inbetween tiers" such as ZA, AQ20, and ZG did.

I'm not sure whether this wouldn't introduce new problems and would certainly impact in the longevity of gear if the mid tier offerred slightly better rewards than normal mode drops from the current tier. I dunno, I'm having difficulty visualising how the ilvls and what not would work, unless the "Mid tier" has the same ilvl, but is just arranged a different visual theme and perhaps with a few alternate bis pieces.

Where I'm coming from is "I'd like to raid the "mid tier" content because it is there and is fun to do. Not because there are upgrades to farm from it."


But what I really point to more is Kara. Karazhan is sort of an enigma to me because it was such a good instance that people were HAPPY to raid it for AN ENTIRE EXPANSION. People raided that s*** for TWO YEARS and LOVED IT.

I loved Kara, but I knew plenty of people who were sick and tired of it after 2 years. I think that the reasons as to why Kara saw so much action over the course of TBC was less to do with "love" and more to do with its accessibility as a raid for a great many guilds. It was (unlike UBRS) a "proper" raid with "proper" loot and so the appeal was enduring throughout the expansion for new guilds getting started on raiding. Plus, it was a pretty massive raid instance, with a good variety of bosses and trash. Certainly there was plenty in there to keep a casual guild occupied for a very long time.


During all of TBC, subscriptions continued to rise at a fairly staggering rate.

I think the rise in TBC subs had quite a bit to do with the momentum WoW had built for itself. I think it is a fair stretch to point to end game content and say "that was what was drawing people to the game."

mavfin
03-21-2012, 09:50 AM
I loved Kara, but I knew plenty of people who were sick and tired of it after 2 years. I think that the reasons as to why Kara saw so much action over the course of TBC was less to do with "love" and more to do with its accessibility as a raid for a great many guilds.

A lot of the longevity for Kara can be traced to the one-size-fits-all badges people could get there.

Slyvar
03-21-2012, 09:53 AM
A lot of the longevity for Kara can be traced to the one-size-fits-all badges people could get there.

I also thought Karazhan was a great raid. My guild would go back and clear it out every now and then, even when farming badges wasn't a priority. I can't quite put my finger on what it was, but there was something really cool about that raid. If we were clearing it every week for 2 years, we probably would have grown sick of it, easily. But going back every 2-3 weeks and clearing it out, was fun. :P

mavfin
03-21-2012, 09:54 AM
I also thought Karazhan was a great raid. My guild would go back and clear it out every now and then, even when farming badges wasn't a priority. I can't quite put my finger on what it was, but there was something really cool about that raid. If we were clearing it every week for 2 years, we probably would have grown sick of it, easily. But going back every 2-3 weeks and clearing it out, was fun. :P

Oh, I agree. It was really a great raid. I didn't mean that it wasn't. :D

Theotherone
03-21-2012, 10:08 AM
I can't quite put my finger on what it was, but there was something really cool about that raid.

Little Red Riding Hood.

Ion
03-21-2012, 10:11 AM
Little Red Riding Hood.

RUN AWAY LITTLE GIRL! RUN AWAY!

feralminded
03-21-2012, 10:16 AM
Yeah but ZG and ZA served similar roles in Vanilla. ZG lasted in excess of a year and ZA damn near a year and both were beloved by the community at the time. In the end I seriously think its a misstep for blizzard to continue to invalidate content so fast. I do honestly understand and regret the issues that came up late BC with progression and keying and all that nonsense ... but there has to be a better way than every 6 months effectively flushing everything that exists down the toilet. I think a LOT of this has to do with iLvL inflation and I feel the key is somewhere in there ... but I know it's more complex than that. That said if the iLvL disparity between tiers was indeed somewhat smaller I believe you could get more meat out of existing content just like we saw at the end of WoTLK. Even 6 months after ICC landed I was still running highly successful/profitable GDKP runs of ToC-25 because raiders still wanted some of the gear and alts LOVED the gear. I understand GDKP is gone due to raid finder now and indeed raid finder may prove to be the nail in the coffin of content spanning multiple tiers (why would anyone do ToC-25 for gear if they could RF ICC-25 for better stuff?).

Again I feel like they painted themselves into a corner and unless they are serious about undoing some of that we're just going to be stuck with very VERY shallow content for the rest of this game's life. Either introduce a softer form of keying as Agg outlined or change iLvL inflation somewhat so older gear is not immediately invalidated or do *something* to stretch the content out a bit so we have *more* to do. Yes I recognize in MoP they are in fact working to give us just that but in the end this is about gear and so if the incentive isn't there people don't do it. As people have poitned out the only reason anyone still runs FL is for the legendary ... and only because it's still relevant gear-wise. No one runs ulduar anymore even though that has a legendary too ...

Theotherone
03-21-2012, 10:22 AM
I understand GDKP is gone due to raid finder now

Nope. There's 25 man DS GDKP on my server every Friday night doing a full DS clear. Have to know someone to get in, but it's going strong.

feralminded
03-21-2012, 10:26 AM
Nope. There's 25 man DS GDKP on my server every Friday night doing a full DS clear. Have to know someone to get in, but it's going strong. I suppose it's still valid for current tier but in the past they were most successful when running previous tier as you didn't need quite as much talent and could carry more buyers. During ICC we ran ToC GDKPs, during TOC we ran Ulduar, etc ...

Theotherone
03-21-2012, 10:32 AM
I suppose it's still valid for current tier but in the past they were most successful when running previous tier as you didn't need quite as much talent and could carry more buyers. During ICC we ran ToC GDKPs, during TOC we ran Ulduar, etc ...

Yeah, it's the nature of DS; normal is really Naxx difficulty and now with 15% nerf coming next week we may see more runs as it turns into lfr.

Kazeyonoma
03-21-2012, 11:26 AM
actually, what killed GDKP runs wasn't LFR, or doing Previous tier. It was most prevalent in ICC. and the thing that killed it was shared lockouts. Doing 25 man heroic with your guild, meant you could still do server 25 NORMAL GDKP run on the weekend, likewise for 10 mans, or 10 man heroics if you had a separate group (or your guild was a 10 man guild). When they did it so that running ANY heroic, locked your entire raid ID from doing 10 man, or normals, that was what largely eliminated both GDKP as well as just server run pubs, and what lead to the need for LFR to be created, because it was simply too hard to find 25 people on the same server, on at the same time, wanting to run the same raid, who happened to NOT be saved in some form of raidID from their guild. Remember, this whole notion of being able to re-run content and just not get loot is very new, when the original raid lockout happened near the end of ICC, that was when GDKP and pugging largely died, and stayed dead through cata.

leethaxor
03-21-2012, 11:28 AM
My guild is actually doing GDKP runs, fairly sucessfully only about the first 5.8 H albeit.

feralminded
03-21-2012, 11:31 AM
Yeah at any rate I could honestly care less if GDKP is viable or not (I mean I like it, but that's not the point) ... my larger concern is the very narrow strip of content that is relevant to anyone at any time. I believe this is a mistake (and I believe most would agree) and it would be nice for blizzard to acknowledge/address this. Again I understand BC/Vanilla was swung too far the opposite directly but there has to be some creative compromise in the middle. These guys are VERY good at creative compromises and I believe this would benefit the game as a whole.

Theotherone
03-21-2012, 12:01 PM
LFR has really become the old 10 man loot (ilvl wise) and normal modes are the old 25 man loot (ilvl wise). Right 13 ilvl difference between the two like 251 v. 264 at the end of WoLK.

Bodasafa
03-22-2012, 04:39 AM
I think they need to look at why so many raiders considered Ulduar the best raid instance ever created, instead of brushing it off.

The main reason I though it was so amazing was because the hard modes were activated in an intersting way (for the most part). The only thing that sucked is that there was not enough HM loot to go around to make it feel even. There were gear gaps and only items for a few classes/specs.

I'm happy the shared locks are here so I don't feel pressured into raiding more than my 3 nights a week. I was doing my regular 3 with the guild in 25 in WotLK and then a 4th night to run my 10 man team to get items on heroic that were better itemized than the 25 man drops.

I'm happy that 10 man raiding is a viable option for end game raiding instead of only 25. Honestly at the end of WotLK I hated 25 mans. We were constantly recruiting (I was the recruitment officer) and we were always struggling to hold a roster of about 30 just so we could raid every scheduled night. Beyond that we had a consistent 5 or so raiders that were basically warm bodies being carried through the content.

I'm glad the days of being forced to heard cats are over. However, I don't care for clearing it on normal and then starting over again (almost like an x-pac just dropped) trying to re-gear with heroic gear doing the same fights with a slight tweak.

What I'm hopping for in MoP is a compelling story line with raiding. I'm not much of a lore buff, but I like to feel involved and immersed when I'm grinding through the instance. Have maybe half the fights with a heroic option that has an interesting way to activate it like in Ulduar. But allow for there to be enough that the drops cover everyone to make it a goal people want to tackle.

And FFS lets fix those bugged encounters while they are still relevant. I mean hell Lord Ry had bugs beyond belief and he even went friendly when he went molten when we went back to finish up our second legendary while DS was current. Warmaster heroic and deck fires not despawning properly , I mean common, how long has this been out? The GM's Ive talked to in tickets basically confirm its an issue, yet nothing has been done and its been months.

That's the kind of crap that really makes me want to hang it up.

Libellus
03-22-2012, 05:51 AM
I agree with Bod. I think the Uldaur "hard mode" model was for more elegant and interesting than just setting the dungeon to "heroic" especially when there was an element of challenge in activating the hardmode in and of itself.

One of the big problems I have with Cata, which has become increasingly more prevalent as the expansion has gone on, is that the boss fights have become quite abstract. It is one of the reasons why I like SWTOR raids at the moment. Yes, they're easy, but what I see on screen makes sense. The boss abilities and effects are consistent and believeable with what the boss looks like and the environment.

Whereas WoW raids throughout this expansion have increasingly felt like either they're "complex for complexities" sake or just gimmicky. Which breaks the immersion of what I'm doing.

T11 had a few fights where it just felt like boss + random shit happening (Nef, both ToFW fights), by FL it had gotten worse (Ryolith, Baleroc, Staghelm, Alysrazor) and DS is almost completely abstract (Morchok, Yor'sajh, Zonn'z, Ultraxion, Madness) with Spine being a novel idea that just completely fails to convey the sense of motion intended. I struggle to relate what is happening to the monster I'm fighting and consequently I'm less engaged in the content.

If Blizz continues down this increasingly gimmcky route, I can see my interest in raiding really beginning to wane. tbh - the whole thing feels like a battle between Blizz and certain addons (DBM etc etc), which seek to simplify mechanics for players. Which means Blizz has to make things more complex to retain the challenge, rather than just, I dunno, do something to stop such addons from working.

Theotherone
03-22-2012, 07:14 AM
[QUOTE=Bodasafa;545774]And FFS lets fix those bugged encounters while they are still relevant. [QUOTE]

Last night in lfr on Madness, it was bugged - we had no Bloods spawn and we didn't get the damage buff; We made it to the last platform before Phase 2 and the cataclysm hit. So, naturally, the "elites" in the group started yelling that the dps sucked and no one single targetd the Blisterings (I was at the top of the meters doing 37k on my hunter and knew it didnt' fell right since he's usually up around 58-60k). When some of us pointed out that we weren't getting the dragon buff for damage/healing/etc, the "elites" then pointed out that the buff only applied to normal and heroic. When I pointed out that the boss "nerf" only applied to the normal and heroic, and that a damage/healing buff was from the dragons and part of the mechanics, I was told to L2P and learn the mechanics "fail hunter". Okay, "bye, gl".

So here's the end boss fight, end expansion fight and it's bugged (in additon to the platform jump boss bug).

Bodasafa
03-22-2012, 10:35 AM
Yeah that Madness platform bug where you fall through the world is win.

Even though we farm it on normal while working heroic warmaster and can down it in 11 minutes, its still a pain in the ass to go over raid time because we allotted so much to clear and then we get someone fall through the world on the last platform jump and have to do it again.

I mean I get MoP is a huge time investment for their staff, but would it be to much to ask to fix things that are relevant to please the raiding base? Are we to wait until the final patch before MoP before its fixed? Or are we supposed to wait for the buff to get so strong it won't matter if we stand in fire.

Sorry Off Topic rant, but I guess its related to why there is hate going forward. Its not the pandas I'm frustrated with, its the general business as usual carp.