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View Full Version : Any info regarding 10 and 25 man raiding formats? (not LFR)



Blackcurrant
03-19-2012, 10:05 AM
For 25 man raiding guilds that struggles with a huge turnover in players i guess there are many of those left that are eagerly awaiting any info on the subject.

Will 25 man get some help from Blizzard or is it almost inevitable to go 10 man for most of us.

Any info seen so far? Or was this topic actively avoided?


Edit:

Found two related comments on mmo-champ that are taken from the MoP press tour interviews:


"Blizzard would have liked to do a 15 man raid size if they were starting from scratch today. However, for now they are sticking with both 10 and 25 man."


"Blizzard will be revisiting the shared 10 and 25 man lockout to make sure it is still the right thing."

mavfin
03-20-2012, 08:02 AM
For 25 man raiding guilds that struggles with a huge turnover in players i guess there are many of those left that are eagerly awaiting any info on the subject.

Will 25 man get some help from Blizzard or is it almost inevitable to go 10 man for most of us.

Any info seen so far? Or was this topic actively avoided?

It was confirmed that 25-man is still there, but I haven't seen anything else. Looks to me as if they're going to leave it to sink or swim on its own, as it should be. Let the market decide.

aresius
03-20-2012, 04:58 PM
Lore already had a discussion with very convincing arguments against the whole "25m is dying" saying.
The base point made is that 10mans were never before serious raiding. 10m difficulty was deliberatly lower then 25mans, and had lesser rewards. When cata came out, serious 10man raiding became a option. If you only had 1 option, and now have 2, naturally some people will switch around.
I liked the ice cream analogy: If you have a shop that only sells vanilla ice cream, when you add a new flavor (say chocolate), its obvious your vanilla sales will drop. The people that ate vanilla because it was the only ice cream available, but prefered chocolate will switch. It doesent mean vanilla is dying.
Blizz wont do anything to save 25mans because they dont need saving.

Blackcurrant
03-21-2012, 02:27 AM
Well, i am not so hellbent on running 25 man no matter what. But i notice that when fewer and fewer guilds want to or can make it work the cliché logic "but Blizzard can't make content for just x %!!!" seems appliciable.

I don't see a problem regarding the playerbase that rather want 10 man, of whom you guys are talking. The problem is for those that want 25 man but can't because it's now too taxing running the organization for it compared to how it was before.

You know the guys that like the chocolate icecream but can't afford it anymore.

or instead of the workload argument, take the incentive argument:

Put a loot vendor in the capital cities with all hc raid loot for 10 g each. Suddenly the number of raiders shrinks to a puddle of the ocean it was. Does that mean people are having more fun now? This is what they always wanted the game they bought to be?


I don't really think so. Can se that Blizzard doesn't either since they of course understand that the character progress along with game progress is what works. Seeing this for example in the recent MoP interviews when they say that even in PVP gearing is an important part of why people participate (along the fun of playing), and does not want equalized gear in arena.


Hm, what i comes down to for me tho is why Blizzard keeps supporting 25 man when the resources go to an increasingly smaller amount of the player base? When is it too much resources spent in Blizzard manhours per player taking part of the content?

mavfin
03-21-2012, 11:18 AM
Hm, what i comes down to for me tho is why Blizzard keeps supporting 25 man when the resources go to an increasingly smaller amount of the player base? When is it too much resources spent in Blizzard manhours per player taking part of the content?

At this point they still have to make 25-man versions of the fights for LFR, anyway, so they just have to make them normal and heroic. I know it's not as simple as what I typed suggests, but, it's not like they just make a 10-man version and stop.

feralminded
03-21-2012, 11:39 AM
We beat this one to death in Lore's video thread so no need to kick the horse anymore. IF blizzard has any plans to this end they are playing it very close to the chest. The biggest thing I could see them doing is going back to the 3 tokens/boss from 2 ... at least for now. Long term we may see more fluidity between servers which would enable some servers to functions as 25 man havens and let others be 10 mans ... or whatever.

Oint
03-21-2012, 02:34 PM
I'd love the system be where we can run 25 Normal raids, and in the same week run 10 Hardmode raids. Make it where you can clear a boss in one version already, you are allowed to fight him again, but on a different raid size and difficulty. I hate that we can't do both. I'd just like the option. I think it would be easier to manage the larger guild size when you know you have a good enough team for 25 but not 25 heroic yet, but you can't get enough solid players to field a 25 heroic. At least you can keep the big team together, do normal, then go back another night with a heroic ready 10 man and do some challenges there.

Tipton
03-22-2012, 12:52 AM
Lore already had a discussion with very convincing arguments against the whole "25m is dying" saying.

Convincing argument to you, maybe.
Absolute rubbish to everyone else.

But no point beating a dead horse that is already severely beaten.

Libellus
03-22-2012, 01:58 AM
rublish argument for me.
convincing to everyone else, maybe.

Fixed it for you. Just to point how trite and non-sensical you're being.
Now, let us never speak of this again

Pallie
03-22-2012, 07:50 AM
I'd love the system be where we can run 25 Normal raids, and in the same week run 10 Hardmode raids. Make it where you can clear a boss in one version already, you are allowed to fight him again, but on a different raid size and difficulty. I hate that we can't do both. I'd just like the option. I think it would be easier to manage the larger guild size when you know you have a good enough team for 25 but not 25 heroic yet, but you can't get enough solid players to field a 25 heroic. At least you can keep the big team together, do normal, then go back another night with a heroic ready 10 man and do some challenges there.

To the venerable gentleman from my guild, I do agree with you. The issue cited by the "hardcore" crowd is that if you want to progress the fastest as a 25m guild, you are pretty much required to do your 25m run, and then go split up into 10mans in order to get the extra gear that might help you progress further in 25m. So essentially you are doing the instance twice. I did however like that as a "middle of the road" raider (2/8 H right now if that gives you any indication). Back in the ICC days, I spent a lot more time on my main doing either the main raid as 25m and then putting together a pug 10m for extra badges/gear, or doing a 10m main raid and going to a well-established 25m pug raid. Nowadays in terms of raiding, I do my raid on my main (25 mostly, but lately 10), which puts me near VP cap. I get a BH in and either a dungeon or half of LFR and I'm done. I spend more time working on alts in terms of gearing, LFR, pugs, etc. While MoP may bring more to do outside of raiding (pet battles, dailies for charms, farmville), I would certainly enjoy spending more time raiding on my main in general even if it means I'm doing tier 14 raids twice on the same toon. The feel of 10m and 25m is different for me still at least.

Tipton
03-22-2012, 01:47 PM
Fixed it for you. Just to point how trite and non-sensical you're being.
Now, let us never speak of this again

Ignoring the childish (and poor spelling!) forged quote.

This was on the French forums

http://eu.battle.net/wow/fr/forum/topic/3429936562?page=4#65


The developers understand that the raids to 10 players are a little more motivating and easier than the 25-player raids since the launch of the update 4.3.
They also plan to propose more appropriate loot tables for each format in future raid instances to remedy that.

However, they did not share other specific plan to change the current situation for now.

Together with the quote from Lore's interview on unspecified changes to raid lockouts and raiding philosophy. It sounds like Blizzard does have a fix planned for MoP.

Libellus
03-22-2012, 03:49 PM
Ignoring the childish (and poor spelling!) forged quote.

Hmmm, misappropriate use of a hyphen and I missed the word "out". But hey, as you're being picky, you fail at ignoring! Go you!

Regardless, my earlier post still stands. You were being trite and nonsensical, as well as childish. I just pointed this out, fairly and justly. Now, let us not speak of this again.


Together with the quote from Lore's interview on unspecified changes to raid lockouts and raiding philosophy. It sounds like Blizzard does have a fix planned for MoP.

If they can increase 25man's appeal while retaining a level playing field with 10mans, I'll take my hat off to Blizzard. Different loot tables for 25man might be doable, providing they don't repeat the mistake of WotLK and have different ilvls, as that would be madness.

Tipton
03-23-2012, 12:44 AM
Trite, Non-nonsensical and childish? From someone who quote's other posters, then edit's them to fit his own prejudices. If you don't agree me, raise counter-points. Do not try to put words in my mouth.

The fact still stands, Lore's '25 mans are just fine' post was not convincing. Otherwise you wouldn't have had 144 replies on that thread. In this thread you had somebody asking for news, then someone jumping in tell them 'it wasn't a problem - it's fine'. I'm a 25 man raider (you may of guessed), and it's not fine. Pointless going into the well trodden arguments, but to try and pretend it isn't actually a problem is just silly.

Blizzard are holding back their new 'Raiding Philosophy', so obviously even they don't find that status-quo that appealing.

Libellus
03-23-2012, 01:33 AM
Trite, Non-nonsensical and childish? From someone who quote's other posters, then edit's them to fit his own prejudices. If you don't agree me, raise counter-points. Do not try to put words in my mouth.

The point of my post was to point out your own ridiculous prejudices. Your statement was nonsensical and easily reversed, which is all I did. If you can't see that, then the message about NOT making such stupid statements is clearly lost on you.


The fact still stands, Lore's '25 mans are just fine' post was not convincing.

Not convincing to you. Yes. Not convincing to others. Yes. But it was also convincing to me. And to others. There isn't a weight of argument on either side which says one group is more convinced than the other, which is what you presented your statement as.

If you want to state that you're not convinced, I have no problem with that. If you want to make nonsensical statements that you're part of a fictional majority, well expect someone to come burst your bubble. M'kay?

That doesn't mean that I disagree with you about the point that "everything is fine so 25mans can be ignored." I think Blizz should do something.


I'm a 25 man raider (you may of guessed), and it's not fine.

I'm also a 25man raider. I agree with what Lore says, because it makes sense. Because it is logical and doesn't ignore the facts that a) numbers are down b) this is creating a problem for accessing 25mans on some servers. I think there was a general agreement reached in the thread in question, that critical mass is key to sustaining a 25man community on any given server. If there are no 25mans on a server, new players on that server will simply have no idea what they are missing.


Blizzard are holding back their new 'Raiding Philosophy', so obviously even they don't find that status-quo that appealing.

And I am encouraged (as a 25man raider) to see that Blizz are giving this some thought. I hope, that they consider giving people free server transfers or some other free means of accessing 25man raiding, so those that want to on servers where there is none, can get to it.

I think Blizzards problem (which they are no longer in denial about) and the 25man community (which is still somewhat in denial) is not having a sense pre-cata of how much people "did not like" 25man raiding, but felt they had no choice but to do it. Once presented with a choice, people chose the smaller raiding format. This in itself is fine (as it is a real choice), but it had the consequence of leaving quite a few players with no choice (which is not fine).

I hope Blizzard can retain the credibility of choice over raid size that SHOULD have happened in Cata, without a return to the WotLK model which basically left people with no choice over which content they should run if they didn't want to feel like "2nd class" raiding citizens.

Theotherone
03-23-2012, 01:37 PM
Had to look twice, thought I stumbled into the Official Forums for a minute there.

Exiledknight
03-23-2012, 02:08 PM
25 man is indeed fine.....25 man LEADERSHIP is not. I am a GM of my guild(yes its 25 man) and on my server alone I have seen at least 3 horde guilds drop to 10 man or fold because the GM and officers didnt want to do the work for 25 man anymore, the vast majority of applicants we have been getting all are leaving their guild because the GM/officers folded things up....there was a thread with a poll on mmo champion, and 44% of the people who responded said they wish they could be raiding 25 man. Now of course this is not an exact number because im sure some of that sample CAN'T run 25's due to internet or computer etc, but it showed that more people do want to run 25 man, but less people want to put in three times the effort to run said guild.

That is where the problem lies, and what blizzard needs to fix, they need to find some way to make 25 man a true viable choice for all because it is fast becoming to where it seems more and more are falling down to 10 mans. I honestly think a few things could spur 25 man raiding
Free transfers from low pop low progression servers, OR free transfers to them(this could give some 25 man guilds the chance to xfer for free off a server they do not like etc)
Maybe offer a real guild transfer service, where you can actually get like a package discount on the transfer(idk maybe half price if 50 transfer)
Combine some of the low pop servers, this could spur a few 25 mans from there
Simply make the acheivment note if it is 10 or 25 man, slightly recolor drakes and armor etc....nothing of true substance but something that says hey they did that on 25 man

I think any of these changes could impact 25 mans in a positive way.

Bigbad
03-24-2012, 11:06 AM
There should be some incentive for the extra management 25mans need, in addition to the suggestions above i feel they really need to make 25mans drop 3 tokens again or maybe fix the itemization issues there are in DS atm. We're the only 25man guild on our server with heroic kills everyone else switched to 10man for hardmodes or dropped down to 10man all together. Our server is low on population so that might cause the issues but I feel its not the only reason.