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Theotherone
03-19-2012, 07:08 AM
I don't know if I like the new loot system for lfr - seems like the QQ'ers won; but it's lfr so who cares.

The farming tokens for normal, heroic (and lfr) seems like a reasonable compromise for the loot never drops issue. I'm sure it will get refined, but as long as the tokens are not super grindy, then it seems okay.

Pagezero
03-19-2012, 08:24 AM
What specifically don't you like, it sounds like it fixes the problems that currently exist, a couple big ones I can think of:

- You can get at most one item per boss.
- Whether you are in a group or solo you have the same odds of winning and item.

Theotherone
03-19-2012, 08:53 AM
Except for not detecting spec, I don't think the current lfr loot system has problems. I think there was a vocal minority of non-raider types who could not deal with losing a roll and having to wait a week to come back and try again. The whole, they really don't need an upgrade, or they're not rolling main spec or they're just vendoring, or they're trading, or de'ing was a lot of whining.

That's just going to be replaced with QQ over, I never get loot to drop for me, I always get some consolation prize. I just hope the keep the loot so you can trade it.

And you're odds of winning a 1 -100 roll never change; they're always the same. The idea that we'll odds are increased if people run with friends is built on the false premise that if the friend wasn't there, there would be one less person rolling. In reality that friend spot would be replaced with some random person who was rolling also.

Just seems like they gave in to the lfr heroes QQ.

Taelas
03-19-2012, 10:21 AM
That's not how it works. Your odds of winning a 1-100 roll changes completely depending solely on how many other people are involved in the roll, all the way from 100% (no one else rolls) to 50% (1 other person rolls) to much less (33% if there are 3, 25% if there are 4, 20% if there are 5... etc.)

Whoever else rolls depends entirely on group composition. For instance, if one tank is a Warrior and the other is a Druid, any tank plate that drops is the warrior's, period (since the tank has the spec bonus to his roll). The Druid has to fight with Rogues and other Feral Druids for his gear, though.

If you run with friends, and they roll or pass to favor you, then your odds of getting gear is increased over the situation where someone else rolls to favor themselves. This is not a false premise in any way? I don't understand your argument.

Bigbad
03-19-2012, 10:34 AM
I think LFR will still be a lootpinata with the new system but it will remove some of the frustration. Wonder if loot is still tradable specially tokens.

fengosa
03-19-2012, 10:36 AM
I diont think this is giving in to QQ as much as it is just implementing a better system. Mass rolls in a raidleaderless scenario are subject to manipulation and Blizzard can't trust the player base to play fair any more than they can get the rest of the player base to not complain about it. Overall I think the new system works as intended more than the old one did.

Aggathon
03-19-2012, 10:36 AM
I think LFR will still be a lootpinata with the new system but it will remove some of the frustration. Wonder if loot is still tradable specially tokens.

To me it doesn't really remove the inherent problems with "RNG-ness" of loot, it just makes it so you can't blame other people now, it's your own damn crappy luck if you can't get the items.

Ion
03-19-2012, 10:39 AM
Sounded like they were considering what to do about tier tokens...let me see if I can find the quote...it was one of the bullet points on Wowheadnews' summary post (http://www.wowheadnews.com/blog=201616/mists-of-pandaria-2012-press-event-full-monk-talents-revealed-and-more#dungeons-and-raids):


Monks will not share tier on Vanquisher tokens. In fact, the tier system may be completely revamped still.

Hopefully they'll just make it "tier shoulders" instead of "warrior, shaman and hunter tier shoulders"...it's retarded that our paladin has 3 410 chests, our priest has two and our warlock has one when three of us on the prot token have seen one all tier.

Theotherone
03-19-2012, 10:42 AM
What's unclear about "The idea that we'll odds are increased if people run with friends is built on the false premise that if the friend wasn't there, there would be one less person rolling. In reality that friend spot would be replaced with some random person who was rolling also".

There's no guarantee that the friends spot would not be filled with another person rolling. Your odds don't change because the friend is gone, he's just replaced with another random person rolling against you.

In any event, the system remains the same at its core, it's just that as some pointed out you can blame the system now, not the individual player. However, consider this, you run lfr on a toon that doesn't need any gear, and you win a piece off the boss through the new system, and assume further it's tradable, you don't think that players will soon complain that the greedy player who won the roll isn't trading the piece away to the needy player. Or that people would complain that there are players in lfr who don't need loot but are getting awarded loot.

The next out cry will be for lfr to detect if a player really, really needs a piece of gear off the boss, and if he doesn't based on ilvl then he doesn't get a roll e.g. I have the 397 valor bracers, but the 384 Gearbreak ones with a ton of mastery drop, the cries of unfair will be heard if I win the random loot award and get them and keep them.


Unless, of course, the winners are not broadcast - which, if this is like the goodie bag from lfd, is not going to happen if you open your bag in raid.
It will really change nothing.

Aggathon
03-19-2012, 10:48 AM
except you double your chances. Look here, some math:

Let's say there are 10 people rolling for your token. We'll do best case scenario where if you weren't there, no one else would be rolling. So without the friend you have a 1/10 shot of winning, or 10%. Now let's say you add a friend, so now there's 1 more person rolling, but also another chance of winning, so now it's a 2/11 shot of winning, or roughly an 18.2% chance of winning. Your odds went up by almost double, 18.2%. And if the person that replaced your friend was on your same token, then you'd have a 1/11 chance or a 9.1% chance of winning.

18.2% >> 10% > 9.1%. Bringing a friend is always a benefit to your odds, significantly, and many guilds end up bringing 6 or more friends. Taelas is right on that math.

Theotherone
03-19-2012, 10:58 AM
except you double your chances. Look here, some math:

Let's say there are 10 people rolling for your token. We'll do best case scenario where if you weren't there, no one else would be rolling. So without the friend you have a 1/10 shot of winning, or 10%. Now let's say you add a friend, so now there's 1 more person rolling, but also another chance of winning, so now it's a 2/11 shot of winning, or roughly an 18.2% chance of winning. Your odds went up by almost double, 18.2%. And if the person that replaced your friend was on your same token, then you'd have a 1/11 chance or a 9.1% chance of winning.

18.2% >> 10% > 9.1%. Bringing a friend is always a benefit to your odds, significantly, and many guilds end up bringing 6 or more friends. Taelas is right on that math.

Yes, but it's not a detriment to the person you're rolling against - we'll call him/her the complainer. Maybe I phrased it from the wrong side of the coin - yes benefit to you, but not a detriment to the player your rolling against (and there's a caveat to this). If the complainer is rolling against my friend and me he's got a 33% chance to win - if my friend isn't there, then chances are that a random person has taken my friends place and there are still 3 people rolling - my chances to win have gone down, but the player complainers chances have remained the same - friend or no friend.

Whether it's my friend or a random person taking his place, the complainers odds have not changed. Now if the friend is replaced by a non-roller, then,yes, we've gone from 33% to 50%.

Or am I missing something?

I think I just kind of phrased it wrong.

Aggathon
03-19-2012, 11:02 AM
Whether it's my friend or a random person taking his place, the complainers odds have not changed. Now if the friend is replaced by a non-roller, then,yes, we've gone from 33% to 50%.

Or am I missing something?

I think I just kind of phrased it wrong.

Well that's the complainer's real problem, because especially when guilds queue up and stack groups, it's not just 1 person you're guaranteed adding to the roll, it's several. So let's say the tank wants the shield to drop, and there would just be him, the one other tank, and a handful of DPS, then a guild joins with 3 more warriors and a few pallies. Now his odds have dropped from 50% down to like 10%. I agree that JUST BECAUSE a guild group queues up doesn't mean "the complainer's" odds are any different, but it does guarantee that IF a guild group queues up they are. Especially because it feels like the complainer is at an unfair advantage. Even if his odds were at 33%, the other person's odds are at 66% instead of 2 other people both at 33%. It looks unfair, and that's their problem: people that don't really need gear rolling on it.

Theotherone
03-19-2012, 11:09 AM
I agree.

If the loot is tradable, then the token farming and class stacking will be amazing. Can't wait.

Quinafoi
03-19-2012, 12:13 PM
Wonder how much consideration has been put into this so far.

LFR in its first inception...

You queue a single person with 24 other people who have already run LFR and are saved to loot. This means the one person remaining is the only person eligible for loot so all loot would go to them. However, in the current model it is possible for this loot to be worthless (i.e. a Hunter winning plate gear). While you have the opportunity to win up to four items from a single boss, you aren't guaranteed that any of them are usable.

In the next generation LFR system...

If a boss drops say four items, then you queue with 21 people who are saved to loot and 4 people who are not. Each of these four people would win one item from every boss. However, unlike the current form of LFR loot, this item is guaranteed to be usable by them. Additionally, if it uses primary and secondary specs in determining this, you can simply change your secondary spec to match your primary spec in order to insure that the items you get are for your primary spec.



I would think the fact that you can guarantee the item you win is usable by you, this would actually result in significantly faster gearing up of those raiding groups dedicated enough to pursue this. Especially at the start of the expansion where there isn't the prior tier's Heroic Gear that likely outgears the new tier's LFR.

Aggathon
03-19-2012, 12:16 PM
Would they get banned like they did for trading though like they did when LFR first came out? I mean... or would you still get to roll if you were locked out, you'd just always get gold instead of loot? Would that make people run LFR more? Is this a good thing?

Takethecake
03-19-2012, 12:19 PM
In the end all this does is remove the random chance that a boss will drop an item you need. So now instead of rolling on an item that you needed against a handful of people, you will always be rolling against the whole raid. Your chance of getting an item go down but your chance of getting to roll on an item become 100%.

I am curious how they will work this with bosses that have multiple drops you need.

Aggathon
03-19-2012, 12:30 PM
In the end all this does is remove the random chance that a boss will drop an item you need. So now instead of rolling on an item that you needed against a handful of people, you will always be rolling against the whole raid. Your chance of getting an item go down but your chance of getting to roll on an item become 100%.

I am curious how they will work this with bosses that have multiple drops you need.

You know, I never looked at it from that specific angle, I was just looking at it as "well now you're rolling against the whole raid." I actually do like that, it might be something 10 man guilds want to implement eventually, it would help them... Well... sort of. Because if you don't win the roll you still don't get loot, some people could just get gold and you end up getting "nothing useful" from a boss... I shall ponder this further.

Quinafoi
03-19-2012, 12:32 PM
In the end all this does is remove the random chance that a boss will drop an item you need. So now instead of rolling on an item that you needed against a handful of people, you will always be rolling against the whole raid. Your chance of getting an item go down but your chance of getting to roll on an item become 100%.

I am curious how they will work this with bosses that have multiple drops you need.

It'll likely be a two roll system. First roll to determine which players in the raid won loot. Second roll to determine which one item on the loot table (usable by one of their specs) will be given to them. You'd only be allowed to win one item. In addition to that I would suspect they will have a lot of more universal items like they did in the current Dragon Soul with the trinkets that can drop on the first several bosses. That way for more restrictive specs, such as Holy Paladin, there will be at least one item on any boss usable by them.

Quinafoi
03-19-2012, 12:35 PM
Would they get banned like they did for trading though like they did when LFR first came out? I mean... or would you still get to roll if you were locked out, you'd just always get gold instead of loot? Would that make people run LFR more? Is this a good thing?

That has been fixed. The items in the current version of LFR can be traded, but those people that were ineligible for the loot can't have it traded to them. I imagine the new LFR may allow for trading (so class and spec stacking may work) yet but still would not allow you to trade to someone who has previously killed that boss.

The bans were cause people got loot from a boss they had previously killed. Item trading is fine. Using item trading to circumvent the roll lockout was not.

Theotherone
03-19-2012, 12:43 PM
I hope it's tradable, that might smooth things out and limit the amount of vendor trash things become; you can bargain in raid and not be given crap; unless of course you do a roll on a boss that you need no gear off of - the people will give you crap for rolling in the first place.

This may limit the QQ on the Forums, but that's just until people figure out that while you're not per se rolling against anyone, you are "rolling" and causing them to have to roll against you for the potential drop. And we're back to the increasing the odds, by eliminating rolls.

I think the only way it works to keep everyone's mouth shut is for the system to do a pure background roll, and tell you you won. Then again people would just crap on geared players for being in the raid to begin with - on the altuistic canard of "you're taking the place of a person who could really use gear off this boss."

There's really no good answer to this, the "problem" of guild stacking may, or may not go away, but it's "wack a mole" and other issue will crop up.

Lore
03-19-2012, 02:05 PM
I hope it's tradable, that might smooth things out and limit the amount of vendor trash things become; you can bargain in raid and not be given crap; unless of course you do a roll on a boss that you need no gear off of - the people will give you crap for rolling in the first place.

My understanding is that there is no option to roll or not. The system decides everything.

I don't think people will get angry that there are 25 people in an LFR, though you may see more groups pulling bosses before the group fills out.

Ion
03-19-2012, 02:09 PM
Be nice if we could queue in w/10-13 people from our guild and just 10-13 man it...

Theotherone
03-19-2012, 02:11 PM
My understanding is that there is no option to roll or not. The system decides everything.

I don't think people will get angry that there are 25 people in an LFR, though you may see more groups pulling bosses before the group fills out.

The first part is good, that will ease a lot of tensions.

The second I didn't think of...but I like that - thanks.

Lore
03-19-2012, 02:12 PM
It's also possible that if they start having those sort of abuses pop up, the 3-6 number could become smaller as the groups get smaller. Maybe if you have 23+ people you get 6 pieces, but if you try to pull with 15 you only get 3, or something.

Bigbad
03-19-2012, 02:13 PM
What if you que up as guild and when the boss is at 1% 20 people leave the raid, would that give the 5 left garunteed loot?

Ion
03-19-2012, 02:14 PM
It's also possible that if they start having those sort of abuses pop up, the 3-6 number could become smaller as the groups get smaller. Maybe if you have 23+ people you get 6 pieces, but if you try to pull with 15 you only get 3, or something.

I'd still be ok w/that if I could choose who the 15 people were.

People have been 20 manning the pvp bosses since there were pvp bosses to 20 man...it'd be kind of amusing to have this as an option for LFR-level raids.

Pagezero
03-19-2012, 02:18 PM
Hopefully they'll just make it "tier shoulders" instead of "warrior, shaman and hunter tier shoulders"...it's retarded that our paladin has 3 410 chests, our priest has two and our warlock has one when three of us on the prot token have seen one all tier.

I agree, for both Fireland and DS we have had the same exact problem, 16 Yor'sahj and Hagara Kills, seen one Protector glove token and one shoulder token.

Takethecake
03-19-2012, 02:35 PM
Generic tier tokens would be the best news of the expansion for me.

Lore
03-19-2012, 03:55 PM
I think for logistic purposes it still makes sense to have it separated out by class for 25-mans, just because 20-25 people all wanting the same item is a colossal pain in the ass. Honestly it might make the most sense to have 3-4 tokens in 25man and just 1-2 in 10man.

Lore
03-19-2012, 04:16 PM
I decided to poke around a bit in a spreadsheet to try and figure out a spread that could work (using the spreadsheet so I could move stuff around graphically). It actually works really well if you stick with the 3-token system (at least in 25-man -- I still think there's merit in dropping to 1 or 2 tokens in 10man), move Hunters from Protector to Conqueror, and add Monks to Protector.

Here's what I started with:

http://puu.sh/lwNN

Each square is one gear set. So, Death Knights have one DPS set and one tanking set, druids have a Balance, Feral, and Resto set, Hunters only have a single DPS set, and so on. I'm assuming that Feral/Guardian Druids will still be sharing a set, as will Brewmaster/Windwalker Monks.

For illustration purposes, here's how things work currently:
http://puu.sh/lwO5

So there's 6 total sets of gear spread over 3 classes on Protector and Conqueror, and 7 total sets of gear over 4 classes on Vanquisher. If we were to just add the Monk onto Protector or Conqueror, that'd bring it to 8 sets over 4 classes -- workable, but it does put the developers in a weird position. Either the token they put it on gets a higher drop chance than Vanq (which still needs a higher drop chance than the 6/3 token), or they can give it an even drop chance to Vanq at the cost of making it harder for those classes to get tier sets for offspecs. That's probably acceptable in the grand scheme of things, but it'd still be frustrating to players of those classes and there's probably a better solution.

So I started mixing things around, and came up with this:
http://puu.sh/lwRs

Oh hey, that looks nice.

All I did there was move Hunters from Prot to Conq, and add Monks onto Prot. That means that every token has a total of 7 specs on it, with Prot spreading it over 3 classes while Conq and Vanq spread it over 4. Prot will still be in slightly less demand, but not terribly so, and every class there can use offspec gear. So whether they decide to give it a lower drop rate than the others or not doesn't have nearly as large of an impact.

Ion
03-19-2012, 04:20 PM
Monks have 3 specs.

Edit: Druids have 4 too...not sure if they're going to itemize them differently though.

Lore
03-19-2012, 04:21 PM
Monks have 3 specs.


I'm assuming that Feral/Guardian Druids will still be sharing a set, as will Brewmaster/Windwalker Monks.

I don't see much reason to itemize Ferals/Guardians or Brewmasters/Windwalkers much differently in terms of stats -- they're still going to want agi rings/trinkets/necks/cloaks/weapons, which means the only difference would be the set bonuses... and it'd just cause way more problems than it'd fix to have two identical sets of gear with different set bonuses. Especially since that then opens up the question of "why not have 3 sets for Warlocks" and so on.

But if they did decide to go with 4 sets for Druids and 3 sets for Monks, things wouldn't change much.

Ion
03-19-2012, 04:27 PM
The concept of "some but not all classes" tier tokens is out-dated anyway.

25 mans get more drops to balance out the perceived "problem" of everyone wanting them...that's why people have loot rules. The more serious problem is where half your raid has all of their offset pieces before the other half has their main set ones because of "bad RNG." One problem can be solved w/out the game intervening...the other cannot.

Lore
03-19-2012, 04:30 PM
25 mans get more drops to balance out the perceived "problem" of everyone wanting them...that's why people have loot rules. The more serious problem is where half your raid has all of their offset pieces before the other half has their main set ones because of "bad RNG." One problem can be solved w/out the game intervening...the other cannot.

I would rather have the second problem than spend half of my raid night trying to decide which of the 25 people in the raid should get the 2-3 tokens that dropped. The logistical overhead of an "everyone wants this" item is a nightmare. They tried it in ToC. It was terrible.

You could argue that that's just a problem of the loot rules players have in place, but when you're poking at things that have been established for 7+ years, you need to be extremely careful.

Aggathon
03-19-2012, 04:49 PM
I would rather have the second problem than spend half of my raid night trying to decide which of the 25 people in the raid should get the 2-3 tokens that dropped. The logistical overhead of an "everyone wants this" item is a nightmare. They tried it in ToC. It was terrible.

You could argue that that's just a problem of the loot rules players have in place, but when you're poking at things that have been established for 7+ years, you need to be extremely careful.

There's established ways to speed up the "everybody wants this" item stuff, but I agree that as a loot master in a 25 man guild that's incredibly frustrating. What about a compromise: 25 mans drop 3 tier tokens with different classes, 10 mans drop 1 tier token for everyone?

Although I also will say, when doing a loot council, I LOVED it when 3 of the same tier token dropped, because they you could just pick the 3 highest. If 25 mans still drop 2-3 tier pieces, then it's a lot easier to just keep track of who's gotten what and just keep going down the line pretty much per boss. I don't think an all-class token would be awful, it would probably suck for the first few weeks then kinda settle out after that. Hell for the first few weeks you could probably just do /roll if you don't have a tier piece yet!

Lirron
03-19-2012, 05:01 PM
You could argue that that's just a problem of the loot rules players have in place, but when you're poking at things that have been established for 7+ years, you need to be extremely careful.

Having a suitable raiding distribution addon will come in handy and the only one that pops into mind is EPGP system, however, even that can be a pain in the rear, as you have to normally use "points" on your gear etc.

I suppose it's a manual thing and/or another obstacle that might (possibly???) be solved by trading, should a MS dps/tank/healer needs said item.

Pagezero
03-19-2012, 09:36 PM
The logistical overhead of an "everyone wants this" item is a nightmare. They tried it in ToC. It was terrible.

Don't you use DKP or something? Worse case just make a list a rotate around it, I am just frustrated like Ion seeing many people getting second and third tokens when the three of us on the Protector token have seen a single token for two slots. DS made it feel even worse because all 5 tokens were drops and there was a SINGLE offset slot option.

Like your idea of 25man having 3 or 4 token types and 10man having 1 or 2 types.

Lore
03-19-2012, 09:38 PM
What about a compromise: 25 mans drop 3 tier tokens with different classes, 10 mans drop 1 tier token for everyone?

That's what I was suggesting earlier :P

Fetzie
03-20-2012, 03:39 AM
What about a compromise: 25 mans drop 3 tier tokens with different classes, 10 mans drop 1 tier token for everyone?That's what I was suggesting earlier :P

And what I've been suggesting for the last 3 months :)

fengosa
03-20-2012, 06:21 AM
One potential issue with a single token for 10 mans is whether or not guilds would leave 25 man formats or not for a single boss if they know the can guarantee an item for any person. Say you want to gear your dragonwrathed mage, do you run it on 10 man for him to get geared? As a 10 man raid team can you do 5 alt runs for 2 weeks and get your mains completely decked out? I think for those reasons alone a 2 tier token system makes more sense.

Fetzie
03-20-2012, 06:38 AM
Why is this an issue? You cannot change from 25 heroic to 10 heroic and back again and the guilds likely to do this will be out of normal modes within the first week anyway.

The problem is, a ten man raid is extremely likely to never see a type of token. I remember waiting 13 weeks for a conqueror token to drop at Cho'gall. Our deathknight only this week replaced his 384 LFR helmet and still has the 384 tier chest while I will be picking up off-set 410 tier the next time it drops.

mavfin
03-20-2012, 07:54 AM
I think LFR will still be a lootpinata with the new system but it will remove some of the frustration. Wonder if loot is still tradable specially tokens.

That's LFR's role in the game, loot pinata and sightseeing, dropping gear a full tier behind normal. It's worked really well for them, too, because there is a huge audience of otherwise non-raiders for it.

fengosa
03-20-2012, 08:02 AM
Why is this an issue? You cannot change from 25 heroic to 10 heroic and back again and the guilds likely to do this will be out of normal modes within the first week anyway.The problem is, a ten man raid is extremely likely to never see a type of token. I remember waiting 13 weeks for a conqueror token to drop at Cho'gall. Our deathknight only this week replaced his 384 LFR helmet and still has the 384 tier chest while I will be picking up off-set 410 tier the next time it drops. I think a 2 token system removes some of the RNG without making it completely guaranteed. I've been raiding 10 man mostly the last couple tiers and would benefit more from a single token system. Still something about the guaranteed drop doesn't feel right and I'm sure a lot of 25 man raiders would cry afoul if 10 man went to a 1 token system.

Ion
03-20-2012, 08:07 AM
I think a 2 token system removes some of the RNG without making it completely guaranteed. I've been raiding 10 man mostly the last couple tiers and would benefit more from a single token system. Still something about the guaranteed drop doesn't feel right and I'm sure a lot of 25 man raiders would cry afoul if 10 man went to a 1 token system.

All 5 of the 25 man guilds may very well be upset...but will anyone even notice?

leethaxor
03-20-2012, 08:09 AM
All 5 of the 25 man guilds may very well be upset...but will anyone even notice?
25 man loot is so regulated that we don't even care. If bosses dropped 3 items each our lives wouldn't be hindered in any way what so ever.

Theotherone
03-20-2012, 08:15 AM
1 token would be nice for 10 man - but the drops just seem to go in spirts. We went weeks with Vanquishers, to the point that our Rogue and DK had full MS/OS 397's in a flash; last couple weeks (now that I'm tanking on the DK and not healing on the Pally) we've had the Pally, Priest Warlock tokens out the wazoo. Protector tokens have been kind a steady one drop each lock out over time, nothing really bursty. Shields seem to be more of an issue for us. We've seen one tank shield since the patch dropped, one. We've seen one healing shield since the patch dropped and that was in a alt run where I was pally healing with a priest and druid; but in our normal run it's 2 shammys and me - and no shields.

In fact of all the bosses Blackthorn's drops suck the most for us it seems.

There's something about me and shields - I saw the Baleroc shield drop once and I've run FL so much I'm just shy of exalted on three toons.

fengosa
03-20-2012, 08:34 AM
All 5 of the 25 man guilds may very well be upset...but will anyone even notice? Never underestimate the amount wow players will complain about anything on the forums.

Fetzie
03-20-2012, 11:05 AM
Never underestimate the amount wow players will complain about anything on the forums.

Don't mix chronic complainers with the people who actually play the game :) They are not necessarily the same thing.

mavfin
03-20-2012, 12:00 PM
Don't mix chronic complainers with the people who actually play the game :) They are not necessarily the same thing.

Many times they aren't. Many times the complainers just can't let go. There's a guy on another forum I won't name who's said since Blizzcon that he won't be buying MoP, and he prefaces every post with "I'm glad I won't be playing" as he complains about the news released this week. Gets annoying as hell, really.

proudmoore
03-21-2012, 05:09 AM
I fail to see why 25 people rolling* on, say, 3 generic items is worse than anywhere between 3-15 people rolling on each of 3 specific items separately. If your raid group has an even distribution of classes, then any deviation from mean drop rates is a penalty. If you have an uneven distribution**, then you have a small chance of it being an advantage, and a large chance of it being a penalty.

While it's possible that Blizzard has taken this into account with looting rates, and would change things around in the event that a generic system was introduced, looting becomes more homogenous with only a few edge cases. In the case of tier tokens, I would argue this is a good thing.

Further, I find your argument that a few people use loot council, and consequently Blizzard should not make it harder for them a ... curious one. Player invented systems can evolve - and in this case, it wouldn't need to evolve a great deal - while game systems are binary: they are, or they are not. Game systems for all should not be held back*** for the mutable systems of a few players****

*rolling on, being interested in, needing: whatever terminology/loot system you're familiar with
** in Wrath, we typically had 14-16 vanquisher players per 25-man raid, and 5-6 per 10-man raid.
***Granted, this is a matter of opinion, albeit a case of "would you prefer an even rate of tier loot; or, a small chance of a much higher rate of tier loot, with a large chance of a much lower rate?" which is to my mind, a fairly obvious question: I enjoy some element of probability (will I win the roll?), but too much (will I get a chance to make a roll to win?) is frustrating.
****Definitively, the set of all players who use loot council is a subset of the set of all players; and dependent on the above point, such a change is tot he advantage of the set of all players

Oint
03-21-2012, 02:31 PM
While I'm not looking for a guaranteed drop from LFR, I do like this system and it giving me something that is specifically useful to me. So if I win, awesome! I got something and it's useful! I don't mind free loot in LFR at all. It's LFR, it's easy, it's mindless, it's me raiding on a free night for fun and I get something out of it that is a piece of gear.