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Fetzie
03-18-2012, 05:14 PM
This thread is for discussion of all issues concerning Protection Paladins in the new expansion. Whether PvE, PvP, Raiding, gear aesthetics, Talents, Glyphs. You name it, it comes in here.

You can find a Talent Calculator here (http://www.wowhead.com/mists-of-pandaria-talent-calculator#lx).

If you guys find a useful resource, I'll edit a link to it into this post.

Sharku
03-18-2012, 07:27 PM
Cheers for starting the thread, Fetzie.
I am seriously sceptical about Paladin (and Warrior) viability in MoP as tanks. I play both and it should be no surprise to anyone that they are currently CTC capped. The issue I have is that it is already hard to compete with DK and Druid tanks in terms of survivability on harder fights, typically the paladin will switch to Ret or the warrior will switch to Arms for those 1 tank fights and that is without the proposed changes to block. Unless we are up to our eyeballs in holy power/rage respectively, how on earth are we supposed to use all of our survival abilities in our rotation without being spikey in terms of our damage taken? I dont want to revert to the ICC days where i just cared about stamina and did the minimum i needed to in order to keep threat whilst surfing the net on my other screen, drinking tea and using a CD every now and then.
An interesting rotation without compromising our viability would be nice, but wont be achieved by making block not matter any more.
I just think they will steer people towards Brewmaster in order to justify including Pandaren as a playable race, which will obviously be OP in order to achieve that.

Jericho
03-18-2012, 11:48 PM
Unless we are up to our eyeballs in holy power/rage respectively, how on earth are we supposed to use all of our survival abilities in our rotation without being spikey in terms of our damage taken?

Well, considering they have already made it clear that we will have multiple Holy Power generators. By changing Judgment of the Wise to give us Holy Power on use. Combine this with Boundless Conviction which gives us the ability to stockpile 2HP for situational use, we should be good with resource use. Yet, talents give us the ability to create quick HP if needed with the changes to the Sanctified Wrath talent as well.

Our ability to remove the "spiky-ness" is still not there though. Its the biggest thing we have to learn. They WANT us to be spiky. Well at least spikier than we have been for the last two expansions. By going to a two roll system they have all but said, they want us to not see that 30% damage reduction at all times. They want us to take unblocked hits and we are going to do just that. There is nothing we can do to stop it.

With changes to our existing cooldowns, as well as the "tacked on" buff to Shield of the Righteous our spiky-ness becomes even worse. As our shield will block 55% of incoming physical damage a good portion of the time. We do now however have a 40% Magic DP by default so I guess thats our consolation prize so to speak (even though most paladins glyph and unglyph DP on a fight by fight basis anyway).


I dont want to revert to the ICC days where i just cared about stamina and did the minimum i needed to in order to keep threat whilst surfing the net on my other screen, drinking tea and using a CD every now and then.

An interesting rotation without compromising our viability would be nice, but wont be achieved by making block not matter any more.

Lol, they have said that this won't be the case ever again. They want us all to be vastly more active. They want us to be timing that ShotR to maintain that buff to proactively mitigate. Yet they want you to start being reactive as well and using WoG again. Our ICC days are no more. As much as I still believe there is a real place for a wide range of "easy" to "hard" mode tanking classes. It is nice to see that they are trying here. If the cooldown numbers are to be believed in the talent calc, Paladin may well be their attempt at that "easy" mode tanking class. Most of what we have seen from the other 3 current tanking classes are a bit more complicated than the proactive versus reactive choices Paladins will have in MoP.

As for the rotation being interesting... well, thats the rub isn't it? They are trying to make the rotation interesting with that choice. We need HP for only 2 things (unless you talent Eternal Flame) this makes our choice between 1 damage/threat and 2 healing choices. Not tremendously interesting but its more interesting than our current "choices" with our resource.


I just think they will steer people towards Brewmaster in order to justify including Pandaren as a playable race, which will obviously be OP in order to achieve that.


Of course they are going to try and steer people to the Monk class. Although I believe that Monk will play much differently than we expect in terms of tanking. They just designed an entirely new class. If Death Knight is any preview, we are going to see the class being quite overpowered in all three of its specs. Do you not remember how OP DKs were when they were new? At least in the beginning. So yes, everyone will have at least 1 Monk in their 10man come tier 14.

Fetzie
03-19-2012, 02:52 AM
Thinking about rotations...

(http://www.tankspot.com/member.php?20146-Fetzie)Something like CS J AS CS Shor/WoG Cons CS J AS CS ShoR/WoG with Grand Crusader procs to make it a bit more involved. Finisher every 9 second with the blocking buff from ShoR up for 6 out of those 9 seconds

Jericho
03-19-2012, 12:57 PM
Also note, that if you are the one bringing the new version of the "demo shout" debuff, you are going to be working in a HotR every 30 seconds or so.

I would love to see Consecration back into our normal toolkit but am still not sold that it will be.

Fetzie
03-19-2012, 01:02 PM
Yeah I'm not too happy about the only way for me to apply "demo shout" is to use a damaging AoE ability, especially with the possibility of CC'ing for challenge mode runs. I think it should at least also be on CS.

Lore
03-19-2012, 02:11 PM
GC seemed pretty firm in my interview that at least the goal was to have Prot using consecrate as a main, rotational ability. I imagine that if current mechanics don't put it there, that'd be something they'd try to get to.

Fetzie
03-19-2012, 02:17 PM
I have always had the hope that they could make consecrate have a double effect, that it could increase healing taken for friendlies standing in it aswell as dealing damage to enemies or something like that.

Lore
03-19-2012, 04:32 PM
There was a talent that did that when they first showed off the trees at Blizzcon, but since Cons is now prot-only, that gives it limited effectiveness. Maybe an interesting idea for a glyph.

Lirron
03-19-2012, 04:48 PM
The only glyph available for Cons is increased duration and CD I believe, or an increase to damage, either one, I'm inclined to see how the glyph for it might change in MoP

Lore
03-19-2012, 09:39 PM
The only glyph available for Cons is increased duration and CD I believe, or an increase to damage, either one, I'm inclined to see how the glyph for it might change in MoP

You may want to read our Ghostcrawler interview :)

Oint
03-21-2012, 02:29 PM
Since they are giving that ability to target a Consecration(awesome by the way), I'm going to be very interested on the raiding side of things on fight design. Obviously you want mobs to say in the spell, but it's a threat spell, you also want to be in it yourself, but if you're far away from it....yeah. I see so many interesting movement related talents in all classes, so this one to me needs to have a good reason behind it other than being cool. It seems very useful...if the mobs stay there.

Airowird
03-22-2012, 03:25 AM
Just a question for the beta people as I am also keeping tabs on Paladins with the new Block 2-roll system: Is the DR on Block in and if so, any numbers you can throw out? Because I am very sceptic about the viability of such a system but need more dataz!

Fetzie
03-22-2012, 03:27 AM
I'll be posting here as soon as I get in :)

Lore
03-22-2012, 04:39 AM
Had a chance to play around with it a bit tonight. Initial impressions:

-At the moment, you don't generate enough HP to keep SotR active (6 second duration is BALLS) while also weaving in WoG. With Divine Purpose procs you can throw in WoG's sometimes, but hopefully that's something that gets addressed at some point because it's pretty much just all SotR all the time right now.
-The rotation is slllloooowwwwww. Lots of empty space, even with Cons in the mix.
-Seems like we may want to hit/exp cap.

Fetzie
03-22-2012, 05:28 AM
What rotation were you using?

This is what I came up with (disregarding procs like Grand Crusader and Divine Purpose). I mapped out the first minute, by marking how many GCDs each cooldown was long in excel so I could move them around easily.

http://i.imgur.com/tnTOJ.jpg

As you can see I have every gcd filled, although I couldn't get judgement on cooldown. Any comments?

Edit: shor is off the global cooldown, forgot that :)

oddjobhat
03-22-2012, 08:12 AM
I'd like to know how sacred shield is working. What kind of numbers is it showing for absorbs at 85 and would it be worth putting up every 30 seconds instead of a shor or just use it when I have excess HoPo? Also is it on GCD? And does it stack with the one that my Holy paladin buddy cast on me?

Lore
03-22-2012, 03:32 PM
The problem with that layout, Fetzie (aside from SotR off GCD), is a single miss or dodge ruins the whole thing :P

Like I said, it seems like we might want to hit/exp cap, just so we can be sure to keep uptime on SotR (and hopefully weave in more WoG's)

Sludgehamer
03-31-2012, 01:21 PM
For the new talents for Mop I picked "Long arm of the law" because we use judgement a lot unless that changes that's what I would choose. Then I picked "Fists of Justice" because I personally like being able to beat the crap out of someone without them moving or anyting. Then I decided on "Sacred Shield" because that just seems like the better one over the others imo. I like "unbreakable spirt" because we use holy power a lot and unless that changes I see that being the better one. "Holy Avenger" looks pretty awesome, I mean I get to destroy them when I'm taking less damage thank you. "Light's Hammer" just seems like a consecration on steroids so I really like it. Some are better then other imo but I have a feeling they are going to make boss fights around these new talents. I also made a video over them http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2U3sbQ2lDP8

Tell me what you guys think about the new talents, you don't have to be protection. Do you like the whole situational talents vs the best in slot talent tree?

Xequecal
04-01-2012, 08:44 AM
Cheers for starting the thread, Fetzie.
I am seriously sceptical about Paladin (and Warrior) viability in MoP as tanks. I play both and it should be no surprise to anyone that they are currently CTC capped. The issue I have is that it is already hard to compete with DK and Druid tanks in terms of survivability on harder fights, typically the paladin will switch to Ret or the warrior will switch to Arms for those 1 tank fights and that is without the proposed changes to block. Unless we are up to our eyeballs in holy power/rage respectively, how on earth are we supposed to use all of our survival abilities in our rotation without being spikey in terms of our damage taken? I dont want to revert to the ICC days where i just cared about stamina and did the minimum i needed to in order to keep threat whilst surfing the net on my other screen, drinking tea and using a CD every now and then.
An interesting rotation without compromising our viability would be nice, but wont be achieved by making block not matter any more.
I just think they will steer people towards Brewmaster in order to justify including Pandaren as a playable race, which will obviously be OP in order to achieve that.

With Druids getting 40% damage reduction for 6 sec as their 60 rage "spammable" tank ability, I just don't see other tanks competing with that. At beast, average mitigation will be equal, but Druids will be less spiky and thus much better, and at worst they'll have better mitigation and be less spiky on top of it.

There's also the question, when comparing Druid tanks to other tanks, do you count the Symbiosis-granted abilities for the other tanks as innate? PAL/WAR/DK all get strong cooldowns from Symbiosis, but the Druid doesn't get much. You can get IBF on your Druid by Symbiosising a DK, but since you don't have their talents it will only be 20%. Paladins can get full-power Last Stand from Symbiosis, DKs can get full-power Shield Wall.

Beyond that, my main beef with Paladin tanks is the current design means that if you're tanking a lot of mobs, Mastery is the best stat, but if you're only tanking one mob, Mastery is the worst stat. (near worthless) The SHoR free block effect is going to have a very high uptime as the Holy Power generation of Paladins is very high. (0.7 HP/sec if you hit everything on cooldown, then Divine Purpose on top of that) The problem is that Mastery gives block chance, and when you're getting a free block from SHoR, it doesn't do ANYTHING. Against a 2.4 speed boss mob it will only be relevant against 1/5th of the boss' swings or less. At the same time, since SHoR only gives one free blocked hit, if you're tanking 10 mobs, suddenly Mastery becomes by far the best stat. So you need an entirely different gear set for AE tanking than you need for single-target tanking.

Airowird
04-01-2012, 01:21 PM
So I fiddled with my Warrior's gear (because he has more of it) in the beta and came up with the following:

Dodge/Parry rating conversion seems to be tuned down to ~256.05 rating for 1% avoidance pre-DR, based on 110 data points.
Base Dodge chance (completely nekid) is 0.01%
Base Parry chance at 192 (base) Strength is 4.39%
DR formula remains the same (identical c & k values)
Assuming we exclude the base strength value, 74.2% of Strength is converted into Parry Rating. Actual Parry Rating becomes 2-3x what the paper doll says. I had up to 17.49% Parry with 1786 rating & 3375 Strength, expected value without Str would've been 10.75%. Initial test shows it is indeed correct, but might need more data on it.

As seen on 1-4-12 on EU beta, Block does not seem to have a DR attached to it. Haven't had time yet to make sure it isn't purely a visual bug, although I hope it isn't.

Guesstimate says that system is designed to go hit 1/3 swings avoidance, 1/3 block & 1/3 full hits at end of expansion.

Pagezero
04-02-2012, 10:30 AM
Dodge/Parry rating conversion seems to be tuned down to ~256.05 rating for 1% avoidance pre-DR, based on 110 data points.


Are you getting matching values, I am calculating around 264.2 for at least dodge but the numbers are a bit off, I was thinking C and K might have changed.



As seen on 1-4-12 on EU beta, Block does not seem to have a DR attached to it. Haven't had time yet to make sure it isn't purely a visual bug, although I hope it isn't.


On the US beta I am seeing DR, see my Block post for details, the character sheet is bugged once it comes up or you change gear, change stances and it will update with the DR value.



Guesstimate says that system is designed to go hit 1/3 swings avoidance, 1/3 block & 1/3 full hits at end of expansion.

I was thinking the same thing.

Mastery is getting way worse with DR/two roll, dodge and parry seem to be lowed by like 33%, is this a hint to just start stacking stam again? Assuming things stay the same we are going to want to shoot for hit/exp cap and all stam, I guess at 90 things could change.

Fetzie
04-02-2012, 10:39 AM
Mastery is getting way worse with DR/two roll, dodge and parry seem to be lowed by like 33%, is this a hint to just start stacking stam again? Assuming things stay the same we are going to want to shoot for hit/exp cap and all stam, I guess at 90 things could change.

With block being unreliable (i.e. not cappable), at this point in time I don't really see why we should do anything other than stack stamina :/

I DON'T WANT THIS!

I like playing around with stamina, mastery, dodge and parry rating to get the stamina while retaining block cap. I find this as fun, if not more fun, than actually tanking the instances. I also fail to comprehend why Blizzard hates the idea of block capping so much. Make the special attacks blockable, make the druid and dk masteries provide a similar benefit. There - I just made all 4 (5) tanks balanced and equivalent.

If druids, dks and brewmasters are balanced at the same level as a block capped paladin or warrior, what would the problem with block capping actually be?

Leucifer
04-02-2012, 11:01 AM
With block being unreliable (i.e. not cappable), at this point in time I don't really see why we should do anything other than stack stamina :/

I DON'T WANT THIS!

I like playing around with stamina, mastery, dodge and parry rating to get the stamina while retaining block cap. I find this as fun, if not more fun, than actually tanking the instances. I also fail to comprehend why Blizzard hates the idea of block capping so much. Make the special attacks blockable, make the druid and dk masteries provide a similar benefit. There - I just made all 4 (5) tanks balanced and equivalent.

If druids, dks and brewmasters are balanced at the same level as a block capped paladin or warrior, what would the problem with block capping actually be?

Hmmm.... should I take a stab at this?
Because block capping is a "guaranteed" damage reduction. DK's and druids never had a 100% damage reduction coverage equivalent (until maybe 4.3 when DK's got some nice buffs to passive reduction).

Of course.... Blizzard could introduce a DK "weapon block" and for bears a similar effect.

As for the idea of why Blizzard hates block capping.... well it creates an "artificial" mechanic into the fights. It creates a line.... like the old defense rating.... that people are intentionally gearing towards vice actually "playing". Instead of playing and trying to "actively tank" better... people are now more focused on getting block capped.... and then trying to figure out how to tank.

I'd have to say that's one reason why. It's made CTC the new "Defense Rating".

The other reason.... well, for encounters, I just created a new mechanic that I have to take into account for encounter design. You now have to figure.... all paladins and warriors are going to be block/ctc capped.... meaning that a percentage of my attacks against these classes will be less threatenting. HOWEVER.... I can't compensate with larger hits as there are 2 classes that have "wonky" mastery mechanics instead and they would be negatively affected.

So... choice 1..... Give those two classes an identical functioning ability that raises them up and puts them on par.... giving the game a new "defense rating", which was something they said they wanted to get away from....

Or choice 2.... kick that from those two classes.... put them on the same playing field as DK's and Warriors.... eliminate the "Chase the Rating" game.... and make encounter design easier for me.

Choice 2..... makes DK's, bears, monks all balanced with a warrior and pally ..... by removing the block cap / ctc thing as a factor.

It's kind of like that evil genie who, when you ask them for a wish.... they twist your wish into something you didn't really intend.
Then again.... Blizzard has a long and delightful history of doing this.

Wooji
04-02-2012, 11:51 AM
Of course.... Blizzard could introduct a DK "weapon block" and for bears a similar effect.


This is exactly what they are doing for bears. Our mastery in MoP is straight up increasing armor.

Fetzie
04-02-2012, 12:38 PM
Of course.... Blizzard could introduct a DK "weapon block" and for bears a similar effect.

Isn't this exactly what they have done?

Leucifer
04-02-2012, 01:05 PM
Isn't this exactly what they have done?

You're referring to savage defense and blood shield?
Hardly the same.

Blood shield is not "always on" for one. It's a lot better than it used to be, but it's still not the full-time automatic coverage provided by CTC.
Blood shield is also not static in the amount of protection that it gives. Again, better than it used to be, but not entirely.

At the end of the day, a pally/warrior with full CTC is not as vulnerable as DK's and Druids (to a lesser degree) to getting crushed. There's still that chance that our little trick won't be up and ready, and we'll take one or two hits in a row that finally break us. You might think this is inconsequential.... but it's NOT. Over the course of a long fight, you're pretty likely that at some time, things are going to happen in a way that meet this limitation.

So.... in the present world.... Blizzard is developing fights that, in order for me to make it threatening to a CTC capped pally/warrior.... I am likely going to be making it MORE deadly to the DK/Bear when those events (blood shield not up and string of hits delivered) meet.

BUT..... but eliminating CTC.... I have to develop encounters where I have to consider that ALL tanks are going to have periods where they are pretty exposed. All have a tool that can give them a breather. All have something that can give them periodic relief.... which fits more in with what Blizzard talked about in regards to "ActiveTanking".


This is exactly what they are doing for bears. Our mastery in MoP is straight up increasing armor.

That could very well work to make up the difference. Same with DK's.... if they got a frozen popsicle man type of damage resistance..

Again, though..... this goes in the opposite direction of what Blizzard stated where they wanted to take things.
They want MORE active tanking..... not less.

And consider.... the whole thing with CTC.... again, ran contrary to what they tried to accomplish by removing defense rating. The whole idea of CTC became a "duplicate" of the situation that they had with defense. You must have X amount or else. Think about it. What happened in Wrath if you were a tank and you didn't have enough defense?...... You didn't tank! What was becoming the case with pally/warrior if you didn't have full CTC?..... You didn't tank!

What I see.... just my opinion.... is that Blizzard is trying to make these stats BONUSES.... not what everything hinges on.

Airowird
04-02-2012, 04:05 PM
Dodge/Parry numbers are pretty correct, I only had a few rounding errors at <500 Dodge rating numbers. Coefficients remain the same.

Block seems confusingly bugged, adding trinkets or reforging changes the Block chance with the non-DR value, ended up with numbers that didn't mean anything untill I changed stance.

On CTC & active abilities:
Druids will not only get the only Mastery that is guaranteed to work every swing (=what CTC is now), their active mitigation ability also reduces more damage than any other, being pretty much a 6s-but-no-CD version of Shield Wall.
DKs are the ones with the most control and against a slow swinging boss should even be able to DS nearly every other swing, allowing the heal right after a strike and get the shield on the other one to act as a CTC-like damage reduction. (Yes, it's not the same, but it'll seem like it to healers!). It is also the only Mastery that doesn't have any DR mechanic attached to it and if it remains as it is, it's going to be completely OP in 5.2. And if they balance for later raiding tiers, you're gonna suck in 5.0. Have fun with that one!
Paladin & Warrior active abilities are unreliable (with bad luck you only get that single block out of it and no other damage reduction) and the amount of damage it reduces is completely reliant on RNG, with no guarantee that it actually will reduce any damage. IT feels a lot like trying to avoid crushing blows, only with them being normal/full hits.

As stat priorities go:
Paladin: Reforge your mastery to Dodge/Parry, gem Stamina, complain on forums.
Warrior: Reforge to mastery (threat stats over avoidance), gem for stamina or mastery socket bonuses, smile when you crit block
DK: Reforge all you can to Mastery, gem it, enchant it, complain you don't have enough.
Druid: Don't reforge Dodge vs Mastery at all, gem whatever gets you the socket bonus, claim dibs on armor trinkets, laugh at the other tanks for having to spend an extra 50g every item upgrade.


If anyone wants my dodge/parry numbers spreadsheet or the DR Maple file (can also copy to notepad if you know how to read Maple input), let me know :)

Fetzie
04-02-2012, 04:12 PM
What was becoming the case with pally/warrior if you didn't have full CTC?..... You didn't tank!

Except it is so easy to block cap, paladins do it with the HoT 5man gear, warriors with 391/397 gear. So it hardly matters as a "barrier" and is definitely nothing like Defense Skill was in classic, tbc and wrath, especially with so much stuff completely ignoring block anyway.

Leucifer
04-02-2012, 04:19 PM
On CTC & active abilities:
Druids will not only get the only Mastery that is guaranteed to work every swing (=what CTC is now), their active mitigation ability also reduces more damage than any other, being pretty much a 6s-but-no-CD version of Shield Wall.

Sounds pretty beastly. (pun intended)



DKs are the ones with the most control and against a slow swinging boss should even be able to DS nearly every other swing, allowing the heal right after a strike and get the shield on the other one to act as a CTC-like damage reduction. (Yes, it's not the same, but it'll seem like it to healers!). It is also the only Mastery that doesn't have any DR mechanic attached to it and if it remains as it is, it's going to be completely OP in 5.2. And if they balance for later raiding tiers, you're gonna suck in 5.0. Have fun with that one!

This isn't really a change at all. This is how deathknights have been from .... well, pretty much 3.3 onward really, when blood tanking took the lead.
Smart use of death strike is GOING to be good. Assuming that you don't run out of runes.... or find yourself forced to use it to help offset large amounts of damage from other sources. It really depends on how damage is leveled at the DK and how fast.

If it's so OP.... then it should be overpowered presently, as this is how it works at present.

Again, the simple fact of the matter is, if you are able to disrupt the DK's rhythm and force a break in resources long enough to allow blood shield to wear off, or where incoming damage previous to a death strike is minimal.... then it doesn't work all that well. If you allow a Dk to settle into a rhythm... then yeah.... it's going to work like a charm.



Paladin & Warrior active abilities are unreliable (with bad luck you only get that single block out of it and no other damage reduction) and the amount of damage it reduces is completely reliant on RNG, with no guarantee that it actually will reduce any damage. IT feels a lot like trying to avoid crushing blows, only with them being normal/full hits.
So.... this is bringing things a bit on par with DKs.



As stat priorities go:
Paladin: Reforge your mastery to Dodge/Parry, gem Stamina, complain on forums.
Warrior: Reforge to mastery (threat stats over avoidance), gem for stamina or mastery socket bonuses, smile when you crit block
DK: Reforge all you can to Mastery, gem it, enchant it, complain you don't have enough.
Druid: Don't reforge Dodge vs Mastery at all, gem whatever gets you the socket bonus, claim dibs on armor trinkets, laugh at the other tanks for having to spend an extra 50g every item upgrade.


Yeah. Sounds kind of like what we'll see.

So.... pally may not be the undisputed king anymore.

Leucifer
04-02-2012, 04:22 PM
Except it is so easy to block cap, paladins do it with the HoT 5man gear, warriors with 391/397 gear. So it hardly matters as a "barrier" and is definitely nothing like Defense Skill was in classic, tbc and wrath, especially with so much stuff completely ignoring block anyway.

Yeah. It became really easy. It doesn't change the fact that if you didn't have CTC, you weren't tanking. It just meant that, if you couldn't hit CTC in later stages of Cata...... you probably didn't know what the hell you were doing.... and no one was going to let you tank anyway.

So... it turned out being a bit of a "damage reduction gift".

Takethecake
04-02-2012, 08:48 PM
Thing about dk tanking is blizzard kept throwing things at them over and over to compensate for their supposed squeamishness compared to shield tanks. Larger passive damage reduction, an arsenal of cooldowns to choose from (including one that triggers automatically), multiple forms of self healing.

Then blizzard said they wanted to model an active tanking style similar to dk's where player skill has more affect on the survivability of the tank. Then they give all 3 other tanks a 6 second buff that is their mastery and smack them on the ass and tell them to enjoy the active mitigation. Babysitting a 6 second buff isn't active mitigation... it's like paladin seals all over again except blizzard forgot their lesson.

That's not even counting comparing the actual effects of the mastery. You can claim that the DK mastery is unreliable all you want, but you have almost complete control over it and it is hugely effective (look at HM yor'sahj being made trivial by dk tanks). The new paladin and warrior masteries are a click to lower the RNG of their mitigation... but it still is vastly RNG and even worse has a DR on it to make sure it will always be RNG.

Airowird
04-03-2012, 01:09 AM
...
If it's so OP.... then it should be overpowered presently, as this is how it works at present.
...
So.... this is bringing things a bit on par with DKs.The problem is that presently, it is balanced against those shield tanks having (near) CTC. In MoP, Paladin,Warrior & Druid Mastery are getting nerfed, DK remains the same, that is what is balanced now, will become OP then.
With Blood Presence alone, a DK will have enough FU pairs to keep up diseases and DS every 5s, so in this scenario all incoming damage will contribute exactly once to a DS (actually, a good DK could get more out of it, but let's say you DS exactly every 5s). You will always heal yourself for 20% of the damage and you will shield yourself for atleast 10% (50%*20% at 0 Mastery rating).
That's 30% right there, something a Paladin would need to Block cap themselves for (have fun stacking 25350 Mastery rating)
On top of that, every tank has a DR except DKs, so the increase just keep on going as you stack more Mastery

Here's some numbers for ya, counting JUST the shield:
Druid: 15-35% more damage taken than a DK tank
Warrior: 10-25% more damage taken
Paladin: 15-40% more damage taken

You're right, Paladins won't be the 'undisputed king' anymore, DKs will.


Edit: to clarify it's the DK mastery:
If you compare Mastery stacking to avoiding, DKs will take 5% less damage in starting gear, but up to 25% less damage in end expansion gear. No other class has such a giant damage reduction when stacking a single stat.

Lore
04-03-2012, 08:10 AM
I have no problem with the removal of block capping. I'm not particularly for or against it. I don't really want mindless stamina stacking, but there are other ways to deal with that. Specifically, if health pools are large enough that it takes a while for you to die anyway, stamina becomes less useful and the value of avoidance increases (you're not in danger of dying to burst, which is what stam is for, but more avoidance is easier on healers' mana).

I don't like the "just give every tank something like Block" solution. Shield tanking should feel different.

Fetzie
04-03-2012, 08:12 AM
We won' know how boss hits relate to tank health until we start running raids though, which is probably a long way off yet. What with seeing 1500 stamina on entry level blues, I'm thinking we are going to be getting huge health pools without even thinking about gems.

Lore
04-03-2012, 08:25 AM
I agree, which is why I'm hoping that it'll work out so the tank who blindly stacks stamina is just as wrong as the tank who blindly stacks mastery or avoidance. It's totally possible for things to work out so that you tailor your setup to what you need more of (much like healers juggling between mana regen and throughput)

Héimdall
04-03-2012, 10:52 AM
Beyond that, my main beef with Paladin tanks is the current design means that if you're tanking a lot of mobs, Mastery is the best stat, but if you're only tanking one mob, Mastery is the worst stat. (near worthless)

This makes me want 2 sets of tank gear / specs, 1 AoE and 1 Single target...not had to do that in quite some time!!

Xequecal
04-05-2012, 02:32 PM
Am I the only one even slightly annoyed by the myopic focus on effective health and tanks completely ignoring anything that doesn't qualify as EH? Someone just said that because block isn't guaranteed, you should ignore it and just stack stamina? Druids have a lot less avoidance? "Avoidance isn't EH, so it's irrelevant." This stuff is ridiculous.

I didn't know this when I made my original post, but right now on beta things are set to 0% base dodge and 10% base parry, which means Druids probably will have 15% less avoidance than WAR/PAL if they keep this in. Druids will still be less spiky but they'll take a LOT more damage overall. I don't know how you can balance that better without completely homogenizing the tanks.

Leucifer
04-05-2012, 03:29 PM
I have no problem with the removal of block capping. I'm not particularly for or against it. I don't really want mindless stamina stacking, but there are other ways to deal with that. Specifically, if health pools are large enough that it takes a while for you to die anyway, stamina becomes less useful and the value of avoidance increases (you're not in danger of dying to burst, which is what stam is for, but more avoidance is easier on healers' mana).

I don't like the "just give every tank something like Block" solution. Shield tanking should feel different.

We actually kind of saw this with Cata, where avoidance/block clearly took higher priority over stamina. Bears were maybe the only class that ever really stacked stam gems (except at release before people started getting 359 gear).

1) Agree. No major issues for/against block capping, so long as they (Blizzard) go about it in a logical manner.

2) Agree. I'm NOT for mindless stam stacking. But again, this will be driven by encounter design and the bang-for-the-buck gained from stamina. Or in plain English, if you make stam stacking favorable for tanks, tanks are going to do it.

3) Health pools being large enough. Agree.... on the point that health pool size relative to the damage received relative to the size of heals received. These all have to balance. If any one of these three supersedes the other, then tanks will gear differently to take advantage of the design, intended or not intended.

I get your point on the "don't give every tank a 'block' button". I TOTALLY AND WHOLEHEARTEDLY AGREE that shield tanking should feel different.

I do kind of agree with Blizzard's move away from this CTC idea. Where block + avoidance (dodge/parry) means I never take a full hit. It's really at a point where it's "free damage reduction". A warrior/pally tank is NOT going to go into raid without it. Hell, I'm not even sure you can NOT get CTC in current (4.3 content) gear. Thing is, for the druid and DK.... Blizzard had to throw in some major mechanics changes and freebies in order to keep those tank classes on par. Especially for DK's where 4.3 was just oodles of fun gifts to us, to the order of increased passive damage reduction from blade barrier and 2 extra charges on bone shield.... giving us nearly full-time 20% damage reduction from that.

BUT..... by removing the current block mechanic and this CTC thing, you drop pally/warrior to the same baseline as DK and Bear. Avoidance suddenly become your base RNG damage reduction mechanic. Block for pally/warrior becomes this cool little bonus damage reduction tool that isn't on all the time, like DK death strike/blood shield and Bear's Savage Defense (pre-4.3 buffage). Pally/Warrior gets their block button as a "mini-cooldown" to help bridge the gaps from not having CTC, DK's use bone shield in an identical manner, and bears..... um.... not sure what toy they will have.

In a way, it's actually another form of homogenization. And here's what I kind of see coming from that......
- All tanks have avoidance to the same scale. Dodge and parry for all.
- All tanks have a sometimes on "passive" damage reduction.... block = blood shield = savage defense.... a "bonus" damage reduction
- All tanks get a frequent mini-cooldown ..... shield block button = bone shield = something for bears similar..... actively used by the player to counter heavy spikes.

The advantage of this to Blizzard is that you don't have to account for the variances in tanking we currently have. They would be dealing with flavors of the same thing.

Tielyn
04-07-2012, 01:59 PM
Weighing in on the druid front here:

The change to Savage Defense (55 Rage, flat 40% damage reduction) is offset by the following changes:
- A 17% dodge loss in a 1:1 live:MoP comparison on my character sheet, due to missing talent points and an adjustment to agi contribution to dodge.
- Mastery only gives armor now, and on me, a paltry 10% armor gain, which translated to 3% less damage. Doesn't do a thing for SD unlike our current mastery; I had a bonus 66% buff to mine, for example.
- It takes up over half of our rage bar, which means you have to be really judicious with the offensive stuff and survival Frenzied Regen cooldown, or you'll be without your Savage Defense for awhile. Which is the same as tanking before we had it at all, only with less dodge.

-Tielyn

In other words: looks great on paper ("I get to control when it's up now?") but what they took away makes us hella squishy if we're not spamming to keep it up. Since none of us had that extra button (it used to be RNG related based on how often we crit) bears are going to need to adjust their rotations to take it into account.

-Tielyn

Airowird
04-08-2012, 02:13 AM
* Most tanks lost a lot of avoidance due to MoP asking ~50% more rating per pre-DR Dodge/Parry; My old 4.2 Heroics geared Warrior lost over 10% avoidance (and he didn't even have 370 ilvl average!). Most of the baseline is gone and the more avoidance you have now, the more you'll lose in MoP.
* Druid Mastery is the only one guaranteed to work at all times (even when taking swings from the back).
* Warriors & Paladins lose 60% (not 55%!) of their max resource pool on their defensive ability

There are also more changes incoming for tanks, as you can read here (http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/4362518287?page=4#63) (or here (http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/220291-current-prot-warrior-model-is-not-fun/) for the blue tracker version), which should definitely make things more interesting for tanks.

Wooji
04-08-2012, 03:43 PM
- Mastery only gives armor now, and on me, a paltry 10% armor gain, which translated to 3% less damage.


3% Higher damage reduction gives a lot more then 3% less damage.

If you have 65% Damage reduction without mastery and 68% with mastery thats almost 10% less damage taken since you will be taking 32% damage from a hit instead of 35%.
32/35=0,914, so at that point a increase in damage reduction of 3% equals 8,6% less damage taken from each hit.

Airowird
04-09-2012, 02:26 AM
Assuming you start out as low as 50% armor reduction and go to atleast 57.2% by the end of the expansion (or a similar gearing model where end-game armor >= 135% green starting gear), Druid Mastery is pretty balanced, as is the end result of Warrior Mastery (although it is not intuitive, the Block DR and crit block make for a nice balance with the 85 scaling in beta atm).

The major issues for tanking Masteries atm are Paladins (no increasing return to offset the DR on the massiveamount of block chance they get) and DKs (no DR at all = imba blood shields). I haven't had time yet to model Monks, I'll see what I can do over the next couple of days.

Pagezero
04-09-2012, 08:12 AM
I am thinking dodge and parry are currently bugged, currently I am seeing:



Rating %
Dodge 1777 6.35%
Parry 1621 19.24%


With no gear on Dodge is now 0%, we lost the base 5% but parry is at like 4.4%, even subtracting 4.4% parry is coming out way ahead of dodge per rating. Parry seems to be more or less the same as live but dodge seems to have a crazy low DR or the rating is really high.

Airowird
04-09-2012, 10:24 AM
Page, check your Strength as naked vs geared, I checked on beta last week and it seemed Str adds truck loads of parry rating (74.2% of it converted to parry rating, but not shown in the tooltip, as far as I could check)

Pagezero
04-11-2012, 11:12 AM
Your right about the Strength to Parry rating it has seemed to increase.

Looking the latest MMO Beta changes they have the JC specific gems listed, it's interesting all the non-primary stats are are now 50% higher than the primary stats (same as stam), for example Strength Gem is 320, Exp/Dodge/Parry/Haste/Crit/Mastery are all 480. This could be the reason for the 176 to ~264 rating denominator, they probably still need to go through the old gear and up the non-primary stats.

Fetzie
06-04-2012, 02:50 PM
I'm still having trouble with ShoR and WoG not being on the GCD, I keep catching myself waiting a second before hitting the button :/ A 4 year habit may be hard to break.

Fetzie
06-12-2012, 06:15 AM
Mastery appears to be adding the extra damage reduction for ShoR now, not multiplying.


Latest build:

http://i.imgur.com/IX7qX.jpg

30% + 29% from mastery.

source: http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=32839&p=728729#p728699

Tielyn
06-13-2012, 02:11 PM
Concur. I've been using the same six pack of mobs as a benchmark test (mmm... 22K per kill) and I'm noticing I'm significantly less squishy than the week before -- I didn't have to hover over the Lay on Hands button at all this time and chaining ShotR over and over instead of alternating WoG every third ShotR made me significantly bolder on charging giant packs of mobs.

-T.

Sharku
07-30-2012, 05:47 PM
Hi guys, I have a quick question for you about our holy power management because at the moment I feel like there is something lacking or I am doing something wrong. My first problem is that I do not have beta access, only the PTR, but I am assuming that these basic things I want to talk about will not change from now to 5.0 hitting live.

The passive ability we have to store up to 5 holy power seems to me to be totally useless due to the fact that I almost never have more than 3 holy power - I am using SotR as soon as it is available and will do the same with WoG (at 3 holy power) as well. The only times I could have more than three, are when I do something wrong in my rotation or when divine purpose procs and given as how DP only procs from using a holy power ability, taking you back to 0 holy power straight away, I cant actually see how you can ever get to 5 holy power.

I can work on getting my rotation better, being a paladin that should take a while *coughs*, but I can't do anything about divine purpose. For me, DP needs a rework, something like having a lower chance to proc from any of our special abilities, would be better for me and actually makes the holy power buffer seem logical for protection. That being said, I can't think of many uses for this baseline ability in ret or holy either. Divine Purpose, if it were to get such a rework, would probably become more mandatory than it already is which is the type of talent or glyph choice that Blizzard are trying to avoid now.

Am I missing something?