View Full Version : 15 man raids
01-27-2012, 08:47 AM
Here is my problem.
For a 10 man raid getting in note that people have problems i usualy would need 3 tank, 4 healers, and like 8-9 dps in a figth like deathwing we are doing it with 1 tank 2 heals so the tanks wich dps spc are not good enough for the figth are doing 1 encounter and sitting 2. my heals 1/2.
Of course, one of my tank left becouse he pug last boss on some random guild and move to there core becouse they do 2 tanks and he will not have to pug 1/3 weeks
Aiming for 25 man is just soooooo hard, in the 25 man guilds i have been the roster was over 40 people in some and people just keep and keep missing raid and get hard time getting people geared.
And of course there are a lot of baddies in those 40.
Why not just delete the 2 mods and do just 15 person raids, yeah a lot will just rage becouse they have a 10 ten man and 25 man stablish group but in the long term and for the most players, i think it would be better and blizzard even have to work less in doing just 1 raid stream
(this was already discused somewere, just bring it here)
Same with 6 man dungeon, you are doing 3 man dungeon in MOP, get your pants on and do the rest 6 man and stop the 14 minutes queue.
01-27-2012, 10:42 AM
I can barely read your post but what I can see is your suggestion blizzard switch to 15 man raiding which is something blizzard has said down right no to in the past.
The primary issue with you not able to hold on to raiders seems to be your are keeping a massive raid core.
That's 15 people to field a 10 man guild. Back when I raided 10's (about 3 weeks ago). We fielded a 12 man roster for most of our clears and it honestly never held us back (see top 20 US). The main issue with stacking your roster this big is what you pointed out, all your members can't raid all the fights. Normally people won't have an issue sitting out for 1 or 2 fights per week, but when they are out more then they are in, its a problem.
When you consider roster size you should really try to 'scale' your group up to 25man size. 15 members is a bench of 5 half your overall raid group. This is the same as a 25man guild having a bench 12 member large. This means if you were running a 25man with the same bench size you would have 37 raiders.
The issue with a bench this big is unless you are a top guild nobody wants to sit. Nobody pays 15 bucks a month to be told 'Not this week billy'.
You don't need 3 tanks, 2 tanks will really work the 'imbalance' between tanking specs is scarcely noticeable. At anywhere under the top 100 ranks. Really if you have 1 shield tank (Warrior or pally) and 1 non shield tank (Dk or druid) you cover most your bases.
4 Healers is also over kill. You can get away with 3 (at the bare minimum). We ran resto shaman, druid, and holy pally. Then when we needed disc heals super bad we made our shadow priest respec.
8 to 9 dps is just wrong. You don't need to cover every class, because if you try to then your every patch 1 member will always fill the role of bench warmer. Its way easier to have your tanks keep a pve dps offspec for fights where you only need 1 tank.
01-27-2012, 12:10 PM
The general idea is to keep the rare spots low (eg tank/healer) while upping the dps spots to increase the options to get into raiding. 6 man with 1 tank 1 heal 4 dps, 15 man with 2 tank, 4 healers, 9 dps etc. But will this really work? Lots of bosses already feel awkward/boring with two tanks, there's no real 3 tank fight for 25 mans in ages - taunting at stack x, minute y or debuff z isn't encouraging me to continue tanking. Last interesting fights for me were Shannox, Beth'tilac and my cata favorit: Nefarian. I really like fights when you tank different stuff and might have to deal with movement (think of orginal Magmaw HC or Maloriak with black phase etc). But well that's not your point :) Healers on the other hand will always be capable of .. healing while dps always have something to kill (except for Spine §&%!). so slightly increasing their numbers isn't something bad, is it?
But Blizzard had a VERY hard time to balance spots this tier, from a 10m PoV: 4 healing Morchok, solo tanking half the heroic bosses and dual healing at least three isn't something everyone is comfortable with. Lots of us want to play the role we're originally assigned to and playing as an offspecc for half of the fights makes me sad. What can Blizz do in future content to prevent that? Especially if you stock up to 12 (adding 2 dps) or 15 man (adding 4 dps) raids? What's about loot distribution? What about decreasing dps in favor of another healer or vice versa (4->5=+25% more healing for 9->8 for 12.5% less rdps)? With atonement specc and enhancement/shadow adding noticeable additional sustained hps or hymn/tranq from shadow/owl/feral for burst hps balancing will become even harder. I'd love to see Blizzard getting rid of the actual models and think somewhat out of the box like maintanking Chimaeron with a dps and having dps speccs offtanking viable for 10m (a mechanic like: if you taunt boss will be dizzy and won't attack for 5s, enough time to have that nasty debuff worn off of your maintank).