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View Full Version : The Weekly Marmot - SOPA vs The Internet



Lore
01-18-2012, 03:20 AM
9klrid1PRsg

Do your part! Read up on SOPA and PIPA at http://www.americancensorship.org

Myfoot
01-18-2012, 03:45 AM
Great vid lore. We can stop SOPA.

heardyoulikemcnugs
01-18-2012, 03:56 AM
yo dawg, heard you like acronyms, so we put some acronyms in your acronyms so you can acronym while you acronym.

Thuch
01-18-2012, 04:00 AM
Stopping SOPA and PIPA now is only the first step. If more isn't done to prevent this type of legislation in the future, we will forever be fighting it. Every time it will become more insidious, and harder to defeat. Not only do we need to tell our Senators and Representatives that we oppose SOPA and PIPA, we need to remind them that we will NEVER support legislation of this kind. As much as I dislike legislation, it will be needed to protect us, the people who use and shape the internet, those of us who have made friends on it, those of us who have made it our home, and those of us who have made it our livelihood. We need to tell our Congressmen and Congresswomen that we need legislation to prevent these types of shenanigans from ever occurring again. I know, I know. Like I said I hate legislation for the sake of it, but sometimes we need to fight pyroblasts with pyroblasts, backstabs with backstabs, lacerates with lacerates, except without the implied violence.

Remember, we can help defeat them now, but always be on wary.

vqmethyl
01-18-2012, 04:08 AM
The funny thing is that it does even less to pirating then even lore says it does. As a Professional Website Developer who knows inside and out how http requests are made and what not, I can 100% say it will do nothing to stop pirating at all. As I understand the bill they can not actually "shut down websites" as in turn off the servers that are not in the us. its a Domain Name System (DNS) filtering process, or block. which will mean that sites like <insert actual pirating/torrent website> will just have to register a new DNS entry, the actual www.website.com (http://www.website.com) part, and point their servers to it, or if that gets annoying just type in something like 74.125.224.72, and tell the internet registrars to go suck it all together. And they cant really stop torrenting traffic through means like internet connection shaping or something like that because of the legal and technical limitations that have been pressed against ISP for doing such, for example Comcast, this is kinda a grey area that people might argue on but eh. This is mostly because the same way a pirate illegally obtains material is the same way say, Blizzard Entertainment, or any mmo company really, handles patching. That it through P2P (peer to peer) sharing or torrenting methods. So it will pretty much have 0 effect on true piracy of content. It might stop mom and pop from getting some mp3 on mediafire, rapidshare, blah blah but it wont stop people who actually know what they are doing. It wont even impact them in the slightest, at most it will be a slight inconvenience but even then not really. And that is still "small game" pirating of fairly "ez to get material", if you start talking about limiting access to like websites or servers that are connected through the undernet, usenet, or IRC channels. YEAH GOOD LUCK BUDDY.

Also the parties that this bill is suppose to effect would not even need to create new ways of accessing even IF it did anything to hinder them. This is because out of "ALL" of the accessable content on the internet legal or illegal, about i would say 30% of it, if that is accessible through a DNS registered domain. That is in actual GB's of content not number of actual websites.

Pretty much its 100% as lore states. the only people who stand to loose from this are the legitimate people who are doing nothing wrong in a free market capitalist environment.

Before anyone asks no I will not go into deeper details about any of these subjects as the legality of the subject manner would be questionable.

TL;DR: 100% useless, does absolutely nothing to stop pirating in any way, shape, or form. Just effs over the "Normal consumer of the internet"

Korriban_Destromath
01-18-2012, 04:13 AM
Should do what Google did here on Tankspot. Huge Black Bar of censorship over the tankspot logo.

Lasoo
01-18-2012, 04:15 AM
You mention Activision alot, im hoping your using them as an example, i know Total Biscuit says that they are against, where as EA (the dicks) are for it :O

but yes, this defo needs to get stopped, i live in the UK and all i can say is, why oh why do our brothers from accross the water have to go and ruin a good thing, god damn you america :P

are there any online patitions going? anything i can go to and just give my digital signature too?

last thing, dont forget, fonts are copyrighted? they gonna stop all websites i rekon :P unless ofc you have bought a bit of paper saying you own said font :P

Laters.....STOP SOPA AND PIPA

Bloodglas
01-18-2012, 04:30 AM
Well, Lore, since you are much better at explaining things than I could hope to, I linked to this video in my guild's MotD. I find it wrong that this bill seems like they think the US owns the internet, and if it passes it will go much farther around the world.

szl
01-18-2012, 04:32 AM
I'm not sure but i quess you didnt mention it (might) shuts down facebook and all similar sites.
Thanks for spreading the word!

Agathon
01-18-2012, 04:33 AM
We are with you Lore.

Gome
01-18-2012, 04:45 AM
Just watched the podcast Lore and when my guildies in the US wake up, it will be all over our website (I live in Australia).

We had the same thing try and pass here and as you advised in your podcast, speak up and tell your Senator/Representative. There was such an uproar here in Australia, the government backed down and the act was tossed into the fiery depths of Hell.

I know for a fact, most of the Australian online users go to the US sites, not only for gaming but also for shopping, meetings, information and general browsing (checking out US tourist sites). If the SOPA/PIPA act was to pass, the economy of the most US websites/companies would crash within days.

So as I said before, when my guild wakes up (and I am sleeping), they will see the new background on the website and wonder what is going on. I will also throw in the website you advised to read about and tell them to read for themselves.

Good to see that no matter where we are on this planet, we can still make a change....hopefully for the better....

MarquisX
01-18-2012, 04:49 AM
Nerf SOPA !

Peace88
01-18-2012, 04:49 AM
Best weekly marmot ever. Not to say that normal weekly marmot are not good I just love how you did this. With the lights off and just the no sopa pipa sign in the back and the hood/cap makes you are hiding from sopa. :D I love it

NO CAT VIDEOS ZZZZOMG! SHIT JUST GOT REAL!

K-rloz
01-18-2012, 04:54 AM
If someone want the background pic
{http://i43.tinypic.com/29c4800.png

Explozzion
01-18-2012, 05:21 AM
I wish i could do something, but since im not from America and i don't have any relatives/friends there i can't do anything. I will tell my guild mates about it . In rest Best of lack with those fuckers:)

Pug
01-18-2012, 05:44 AM
Well spoken Lore. I wish I could do more than sign petitions. Fuck SOPA/PIPA from Sweden.

Krenian
01-18-2012, 05:56 AM
Please note that this thread will be heavily moderated. This is a SOPA/PIPA discussion and how it is damaging to sites such as Tankspot and other webpages that you would visit daily. Further discussions about other political ideas will be removed. Stick to the topic. This is your first and final warning about the issue.

Don't push it.

truculent
01-18-2012, 06:12 AM
The crazy part is how they deal with non-US websites. Its the equlivant of saying "weed is legal in amsterdam, so your not allowed to go there". Stright up communist government.

People need to wake up and start riots in the streets....

Toushiro
01-18-2012, 06:13 AM
More like people need to wake up and READ, theres a HUGE thing in my towns newspapper about how SOPA was denied and has to be rewritten.

Teapea
01-18-2012, 06:15 AM
Funniest thing to me.. is that if this goes through.. it would make perfect sense for every big game company(and every other creative media) to move outside of U.S. which would lead to massive loss of taxes..

Just saying funny how greed allways leads to a fall..

Stephanius
01-18-2012, 06:21 AM
Copyright is just the start, check out Cory's speech for a bigger picture.

Cory Doctorow: The coming war on general computation [28C3]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYqkU1y0AYc

Termarn
01-18-2012, 06:23 AM
If this bill passes, which it never should, I'm filing a complaint for shutdown on anyone who supported this bill.

truculent
01-18-2012, 06:24 AM
reading wont do much. we need action. Im taken back by this. Ive seen some s*** come out of washingtion, but this is the last straw.

Krenian
01-18-2012, 06:24 AM
More like people need to wake up and READ, theres a HUGE thing in my towns newspapper about how SOPA was denied and has to be rewritten.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_Online_Piracy_Act

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_Online_Piracy_Act)I urge you to look at the section where it explains where the legislative act is at. The fact that it was not passed yet does not mean the bill's been defeated. You can still pass a bill which is currently being amended. They have yet to push the bill out but it does not mean the bill is dead. It will try to pass with a couple of amendments. This is to tell them to literally tell the Senate and your Congressmen that it is not a good bill at all and to kill it. Period.

Toushiro
01-18-2012, 06:28 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_Online_Piracy_Act

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_Online_Piracy_Act)I urge you to look at the section where it explains where the legislative act is at. The fact that it was not passed yet does not mean the bill's been defeated. You can still pass a bill which is currently being amended. They have yet to push the bill out but it does not mean the bill is dead. It will try to pass with a couple of amendments. This is to tell them to literally tell the Senate and your Congressmen that it is not a good bill at all and to kill it. Period.

The whole bill is being rewritten from the ground up Kren, not having amendments added to it.

Deandia
01-18-2012, 06:31 AM
I understand what you said Lore but...

I am a holder of several copyrights. If you think that I am going to allow anyone to use the content I have written, without credit and/or payment, for its use, I am not going to allow it.

Also if you do not have Activisions written permission to even talk about Warcraft, why is your site listed as an Official Warcraft Fansite?

truculent
01-18-2012, 06:36 AM
I understand what you said Lore but...

I am a holder of several copyrights. If you think that I am going to allow anyone to use the content I have written, without credit and/or payment, for its use, I am not going to allow it.

Also if you do not have Activisions written permission to even talk about Warcraft, why is your site listed as an Official Warcraft Fansite?

And in todays world, if you dont want to allow it.... you can go to court, and prove it. You already have that right. It dosnt matter what the crime, there needs to be due process.

Bigbad
01-18-2012, 07:07 AM
Got the same thing going on in the Netherlands just a little different, some judge ordered ispns to block piratebay. Now the whole government is like hmm maybe we should do something about that.

Bythedar
01-18-2012, 07:25 AM
My main objection to this bill (and I am relying on hear-say, I am not about to read a big legal bill that I wouldn't even understand. I am not a lawyer) is the lack of requirement of a warrant.

It seems to break Fourth Amendment of the Constitution (search and seizure without a warrant with probable cause).

The internet needs some form of policing to protect the owners of digital property, but it should be done right.

And as Lore states, the pirates will be one step ahead anyway, much like drug dealers and gun runners. And the latter two are physical items, much harder to reroute. All an internet pirate has to do is get a new IP address and a new DNS name and they are back up in 10 seconds.

AnitaHeals
01-18-2012, 08:11 AM
Contacted my Sen. and my US REP. Did you?
Yes I am fighting for our freedom of speech even though most sites and games dont allow me the same freedoms on their sites.
Maybe these freedoms should be added to the bill... so the dumb GM's in WoW or mods on forums cant just shut down or ban because of speech they dont like.
Freedoms, as long as they benefit, amirite?

Krenian
01-18-2012, 08:15 AM
Contacted my Sen. and my US REP. Did you?
Yes I am fighting for our freedom of speech even though most sites and games dont allow me the same freedoms on their sites.
Maybe these freedoms should be added to the bill... so the dumb GM's in WoW or mods on forums cant just shut down or ban because of speech they dont like.
Freedoms, as long as they benefit, amirite?

That's a 'little' different from the bill that you just called your Senator and US Rep for. You have a contractual agreement with the forum owners that you adhere to their rules or you can have the stuff removed. You knowingly go in and accept those terms.

SOPA isn't law, and we are fighting for it not to become law, therefore it is not the same at all.

Fetzie
01-18-2012, 08:17 AM
so the dumb GM's in WoW or mods on forums cant just shut down or ban because of speech they dont like.
Freedoms, as long as they benefit, amirite?

House rules are there to protect sites as well as visitors. If somebody came round my place and started shouting and being an idiot I'd throw them out. Why would a game or a forum be any different?

My issue with SOPA (as a European I would remain largely unaffected by the legislation itself) is the "without due process" stipulation. And you already have legislation that allows for a site to be forced to take something down or be closed down with a COURT ORDER. I believe it is called the DMCA.

AnitaHeals
01-18-2012, 08:18 AM
Then require it to be law not to be forced to give away your free f'in speech!
The communities as a whole have a great way in dealing with troubling individuals in their 'house.'

Fetzie
01-18-2012, 08:20 AM
If a forum requires you to not swear, you do not swear on that forum, or you do not take part in the forum. That has nothing to do with civil or human rights.

gotpho
01-18-2012, 08:21 AM
For anyone that is curious about the technical aspects of why SOPA is particularly bad, http://www.hackerfactor.com/blog/index.php?/archives/466-SOPA-Survivalist.html has a good article on the various points, with specific quotes from the bill.

Nez
01-18-2012, 08:36 AM
Sorry this discussion does not belong on this site, there has been a long standing rule of not allowing any thing political. Breaking your own rules to become a political activist on any subject is wrong.

This has nothing to do with my opinion/non-support of the bill just my long time respect of the site and its ability to stay a neutral site dedicated to the game of WoW.

Lore
01-18-2012, 08:49 AM
Sorry this discussion does not belong on this site, there has been a long standing rule of not allowing any thing political. Breaking your own rules to become a political activist on any subject is wrong.

This has nothing to do with my opinion/non-support of the bill just my long time respect of the site and its ability to stay a neutral site dedicated to the game of WoW.

Hi, I'm Lore, Tankspot Site Director. You don't need to quote rules at me. We're making an exception for a particularly important issue. Moreover, there have been cases of this in the past.

truculent
01-18-2012, 08:50 AM
hi, i'm lore, tankspot site director. You don't need to quote rules at me. We're making an exception for a particularly important issue. Moreover, there have been cases of this in the past.

boom

AnitaHeals
01-18-2012, 08:52 AM
Hi, I'm Lore, Tankspot Site Director. You don't need to quote rules at me. We're making an exception for a particularly important issue. Moreover, there have been cases of this in the past.

WoW, good thing I checked, thought he single-handidly killed the topic!
Thank you Lore for all the work you do by the way, I may have a VERY different view of things than most and can be pretty outspoken on these views, and though I may or may not always agree with you on certain issues I do recognise the commitment you have put in and again I thank you.

Nez
01-18-2012, 08:57 AM
Hi Lore,
I am Nez the long time Donor from before there were silly Blue names or a donor forum, or encounter videos, or video blogs. The past record and community of this forum is what made it great. Dropping into political topics makes it average, I would urge you to not be average.

truculent
01-18-2012, 08:59 AM
If I may politely say, if you dont understand why the rules are being stretched, perhaps you should just ignore the conversation.

AnitaHeals
01-18-2012, 09:08 AM
For US Citizans interested in contacting their reps and sens to voice your opinion on this matter here are some links:

http://www.house.gov/representatives/

http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm

You will need to figure out the District you are in for which Rep is yours and then fill out a typical information when you use the email system.

Rystrave
01-18-2012, 09:08 AM
Hi Lore,
I am Nez the long time Donor from before there were silly Blue names or a donor forum, or encounter videos, or video blogs. The past record and community of this forum is what made it great. Dropping into political topics makes it average, I would urge you to not be average.

You're going off topic, Nez. You shouldn't attack someone, especially Lore, for their views and what they deem important. Obviously the SOPA situation is a big deal in this day and age. We should all take some time to research it and do our part to prevent this from passing. It'll affect this wonderful website we have here, as well as many others we've come to just take for granted.

johnnytruant
01-18-2012, 09:15 AM
Hi Lore,
I am Nez the long time Donor from before there were silly Blue names or a donor forum, or encounter videos, or video blogs. The past record and community of this forum is what made it great. Dropping into political topics makes it average, I would urge you to not be average.

So, by your logic, a discussion of a political issue that can directly effect how this site is run makes it average? Whether you are for or against the bill, a community, which is what this is, should stand up and speak their mind on the issues relevant to them. Apathy never solved anything.

Toushiro
01-18-2012, 09:17 AM
For anyone that is curious about the technical aspects of why SOPA is particularly bad, http://www.hackerfactor.com/blog/index.php?/archives/466-SOPA-Survivalist.html has a good article on the various points, with specific quotes from the bill.

I believe everyone needs to read this and this needs to be on the main post, as it stands SOPA, PIPA and OPEN will not get passed because the White house stands against them as is.

AnitaHeals
01-18-2012, 09:21 AM
Here is another way to help if you are against the bill, add this to all your social media pages.

http://sopastrike.com/strike

Leucifer
01-18-2012, 09:23 AM
Sorry this discussion does not belong on this site, there has been a long standing rule of not allowing any thing political. Breaking your own rules to become a political activist on any subject is wrong.

This has nothing to do with my opinion/non-support of the bill just my long time respect of the site and its ability to stay a neutral site dedicated to the game of WoW.

Nez..... when it affects how this website and many others are run, and potentially how we interact with WoW, then it's not "political". It is in the interest of our hobby (or in some people's cases..... potentially their livings). Are you aware of how these bills could affect this website and how we play the game? I mean, hello.... TankSpot streams videos of WoW. Technically, WoW could be considered copyrighted content. All it takes is an ISP to determine that it has "reasonable evidence" that a website is home to illegally copyrighted content for them to block it.

So.... let's say I'm Cox Communications, a large ISP. I'm buddies with a company like, say, EA. I find myself a website like TankSpot, which supports a competing company's product. I watch and see, lo' and behold..... some rascal had made a video mocking my product using images from my game. I say, "Hey! These designs are copyrighted by me!" I don't even have to PROVE IT, I just have to have "reasonable evidence" and use my own "judgment".

So, I have my friends over at Cox block TankSpot. Tada! And the best part is, I don't have to really go to court or try and get to get any sort of court action against TankSpot! All I have to do is..... get the ISP to block it! And at least one of the bills includes an immunity clause for the ISP!

Now, mind you, this is all a bit of a tinfoil-hat kind of view, but ENTIRELY possible. It could very well affect this website, which despite what you interpret as neutral, might very well be considered "non-neutral" by an ISP.....

But hey.... if these bills were to pass..... You wouldn't get to decide anymore.

Kinda like how right now, you're free to determine for yourself that this is a politcal discussion, and walk away from it or not view it if you want. You get to choose whether to engage in it or not. If these bills pass..... well, someone else gets to effectively make the decision for you, without going through the due process of our legal system.

This doesn't even take into consideration that, what if Blizzard suddenly got its panties in a bunch and decided that the TankSpot videos were of "copyrighted material"? These bills would allow Blizzard to put pressure on ISPs to block this website, and there's not a damn thing you could do about it.


Hi, I'm Lore, Tankspot Site Director. You don't need to quote rules at me. We're making an exception for a particularly important issue. Moreover, there have been cases of this in the past.

Lore..... it affects how this website and many others operate.
I believe we would call this a "self-serving" forum post. It is an appeal to our (because we are ALL here part of TankSpot) own cause, to play and discuss our hobby and discuss the things that impact it.

kukuluku
01-18-2012, 09:35 AM
even if u're not from America

u can still go to a 1 of the websites that oppose against PIPA/SOPA today and click that u're opposing against it yourself. there will be a made email so u just have to fill in your name, where u from/state and the zipcode from the city...i just took a random zipcode '46201' that's 1 from Indianapolis. ( and i'm from Belgium )

so yeah that worked :)

Bovinity
01-18-2012, 10:18 AM
I dunno, I'm not in support of the bill, but the level of hyperbole that surrounds this topic really isn't helping.

Leucifer
01-18-2012, 10:43 AM
I dunno, I'm not in support of the bill, but the level of hyperbole that surrounds this topic really isn't helping.

Ah... Bov.....

Yes. Anytime someone talks about what can/can't be done in regards to legislation it's 'hyperbole".
Which is the polite way of saying "tinfoil-hat speak".

The example I gave above might very well be hyperbole. I'll agree. It's an example that assumes entities have a dubious nature. I grant that. There's no saying that any company or individual may or may not engage in such actions.

However, the problem remains that these bills would effectively allow for websites to be removed or made unviewable by an ISP based upon their judgment or the judgment of anyone who can convince them that there was a copyright violation.... i.e. a violation of the law.

The problem with this is...... if the law has been broken, it is up to our court system to deliver justice.... not for an "entity" or individual not associated with our justice system to determine this. There's this thing called "due process", Bov, that is in place to PROTECT US.

But, because there's been no abuse of that power yet, we should just give it to these people? We should just assume that these people won't behave in a criminal manner? Why should I give them that benefit of the doubt when they refuse to give me the benefit of doubt?

The approach of these bills is such where it's assumed that someone is a criminal before it is proven.

Sorry. I don't pirate things off the internet. I don't want to be treated like I'm a criminal when I'm not.

Reev
01-18-2012, 10:55 AM
The crazy part is how they deal with non-US websites. Its the equlivant of saying "weed is legal in amsterdam, so your not allowed to go there". Stright up communist government.

People need to wake up and start riots in the streets....

Actually, it's more like saying you aren't allowed to come back to the USA from Amsterdam with an enormous suitcase full of marijuana.

I am against the bill for a number of reasons, but I didn't like the analogy.

Actually, the biggest reason I'm against the bill is that I think it will encourage companies to to their Internet development outside the USA, which I don't think is good for the future of my country.

Hightotem
01-18-2012, 11:30 AM
I hope for Americas sake Ron Paul gets into power, but with the mainstream media being bribed into giving him no coverage it will be hard.

Anyways I will do what I can to spread the word on this, it's bad for the US and the world...

The land of the free does not seem so free anymore...

Leucifer
01-18-2012, 11:43 AM
Actually, it's more like saying you aren't allowed to come back to the USA from Amsterdam with an enormous suitcase full of marijuana.

I am against the bill for a number of reasons, but I didn't like the analogy.

Actually, the biggest reason I'm against the bill is that I think it will encourage companies to to their Internet development outside the USA, which I don't think is good for the future of my country.

My biggest issue is that it essentially circumvents the court system

No longer would someone accusing me of hosting copyrighted material have to prove in court that I am in violation of the law.
They just have to convince an ISP, or search engine, that I am.

It would then be incumbent on me to prove that I am innocent of a crime. Instead of my accuser having to convince a court of wrong-doing, I now have to convince a court that I'm innocent.

Sorry. I don't support it on that basis alone.

I do agree that piracy is wrong. It is stealing. I do agree that our system has not done a good job in adapting to this issue, especially as it pertains to the internet. These bills however go too far in the wrong direction. Yes, I believe those who create content and intellectual property should be protected from theft. Honestly, the copyright and patent systems BOTH need to be overhauled. These bills are just very poor bandages to a system that is in need of a comprehensive solution, and would establish a legal precedent that would hurt that long-term solution.

Reev
01-18-2012, 11:44 AM
The land of the free does not seem so free anymore...

Because a couple of people put up some bad legislation as a bill that stands no chance of becoming law?

If something like this made it through the legislature, got signed into law, then upheld by the supreme court, I could understand questioning the freedoms of the US. Right now it stands no chance.

Toushiro
01-18-2012, 11:46 AM
Alright lets just end this, SOPA, PIPA and OPEN aren't gonna pass because the White House stands firmly against them.

Leucifer
01-18-2012, 11:52 AM
Because a couple of people put up some bad legislation as a bill that stands no chance of becoming law?

If something like this made it through the legislature, got signed into law, then upheld by the supreme court, I could understand questioning the freedoms of the US. Right now it stands no chance.


Alright lets just end this, SOPA, PIPA and OPEN aren't gonna pass because the White House stands firmly against them.

I think the big issue would be if it could survive Supreme Court review.
The Constitutionality of these bills in their present state, I would think would be very challenging to uphold.
I just can't see how these would survive a review against the 1st Amendment and 5th Amendment, just off the top off my head.
The 4th Amendment might even come into play.

Pug
01-18-2012, 12:02 PM
If this passes, the backlash will be incredible. The politicians will know just how big of a mistake they made if they pass, that I can guarantee. The riots will be huge. I would hop on a plane myself to the US and participate, that is a promise.

Leucifer
01-18-2012, 12:29 PM
Well Lore.....
I think you found another topic as inflammatory to the TankSpot community.

Add it to the list!
Legendaries.....
Patch 4.3.....
Mists of Pandarrrrrrrria....
10 man vs 25 man Raiding....

Sadiebear
01-18-2012, 12:39 PM
Lore mentioned some great points to Sopa and Pipa but he failed to mention the masses of what these two bills are proposing. Great job on getting people involved on a political front in the nation and hopefully these same people will go read the two bills and not just take everything for hearsay. Not that I am for or against either of these bills but I truly hope people go do some research on their own and don't just take others words that something is good or bad.

Just so you know with the way these two bills are written it would affect NBC, ABC, CBS, Fox News and ever other major broadcasting company to include almost every retailer in the US. Point blank Ted Turner would be bankrupt.

Sadiebear
01-18-2012, 12:55 PM
Nez..... when it affects how this website and many others are run, and potentially how we interact with WoW, then it's not "political". It is in the interest of our hobby (or in some people's cases..... potentially their livings). Are you aware of how these bills could affect this website and how we play the game? I mean, hello.... TankSpot streams videos of WoW. Technically, WoW could be considered copyrighted content. All it takes is an ISP to determine that it has "reasonable evidence" that a website is home to illegally copyrighted content for them to block it.

So.... let's say I'm Cox Communications, a large ISP. I'm buddies with a company like, say, EA. I find myself a website like TankSpot, which supports a competing company's product. I watch and see, lo' and behold..... some rascal had made a video mocking my product using images from my game. I say, "Hey! These designs are copyrighted by me!" I don't even have to PROVE IT, I just have to have "reasonable evidence" and use my own "judgment".

So, I have my friends over at Cox block TankSpot. Tada! And the best part is, I don't have to really go to court or try and get to get any sort of court action against TankSpot! All I have to do is..... get the ISP to block it! And at least one of the bills includes an immunity clause for the ISP!

Now, mind you, this is all a bit of a tinfoil-hat kind of view, but ENTIRELY possible. It could very well affect this website, which despite what you interpret as neutral, might very well be considered "non-neutral" by an ISP.....

But hey.... if these bills were to pass..... You wouldn't get to decide anymore.

Kinda like how right now, you're free to determine for yourself that this is a politcal discussion, and walk away from it or not view it if you want. You get to choose whether to engage in it or not. If these bills pass..... well, someone else gets to effectively make the decision for you, without going through the due process of our legal system.

This doesn't even take into consideration that, what if Blizzard suddenly got its panties in a bunch and decided that the TankSpot videos were of "copyrighted material"? These bills would allow Blizzard to put pressure on ISPs to block this website, and there's not a damn thing you could do about it.



Lore..... it affects how this website and many others operate.
I believe we would call this a "self-serving" forum post. It is an appeal to our (because we are ALL here part of TankSpot) own cause, to play and discuss our hobby and discuss the things that impact it.


Please go read the Bills before posting information that just becomes more hearsay about them. There is a lot to these bills and what you quoted here #1 would never happen #2 isn't even written in the bills.

shade8211
01-18-2012, 01:00 PM
and for anyone who has Not signed one yet... there are Several pettions at http://www.change.org/ right on the main page.
signe one.

Rennadrel
01-18-2012, 01:30 PM
Days behind, it's already being dropped: http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/political-animal/2012_01/putting_sopa_on_a_shelf034765.php

Ion
01-18-2012, 01:42 PM
Days behind, it's already being dropped: http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/political-animal/2012_01/putting_sopa_on_a_shelf034765.php

From tfa:

House Oversight Chairman Darrell Issa (R-Calif.) said early Saturday morning that Majority Leader Eric Cantor (R-Va.) promised him the House will not vote on the controversial Stop Online Piracy Act (SOPA) unless there is consensus on the bill.

That's not saying "we're killing the bill" that's saying "we're not going to vote on it unless there's a consensus".

The Oversight Chairman also said:

"Majority Leader Cantor has assured me that we will continue to work to address outstanding concerns and work to build consensus prior to any anti-piracy legislation coming before the House for a vote."

Meaning if/when the hubbub dies down they'll bring it back up, otherwise it'll just sit there, untouched and not killed.

It's not dead, just on hold for now.

Krenian
01-18-2012, 01:43 PM
Days behind, it's already being dropped: http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/political-animal/2012_01/putting_sopa_on_a_shelf034765.php

Wrote the same thing Ion did but just slower so uh...yeah, what Ion said.

Rennadrel
01-18-2012, 02:11 PM
From tfa:


That's not saying "we're killing the bill" that's saying "we're not going to vote on it unless there's a consensus".

The Oversight Chairman also said:


Meaning if/when the hubbub dies down they'll bring it back up, otherwise it'll just sit there, untouched and not killed.

It's not dead, just on hold for now.

Well they aren't going to vote on it unless it's drastically changed, which with how stupid and vague the bill is, would be a lot of work. They need to just kill it with fire, there is nothing in the bill that makes it reasonable, and is going to jeopardize a lot of websites in the process. Google can be hurt by it, same goes for YouTube and many websites that share content such as sports websites would be forced into gaining permission constantly to use content produced by another source, such as ESPN using sports playbacks and highlights. Not to mention allowing ISP's to effectively block whatever sites they deem to be using pirated content which seems completely asinine.

Until SOPA stops trying to treat citizens worse then child abusers and drug dealers, it will be opposed. The entertainment industry, especially publishers and copyright holders need to stop using politicians as puppets and trying to push through their silly agenda in the form of new and unethical laws. Not to mention treating a petty crime as some sort of federal offence. You hear about these stories where someone faces hundreds of thousands of dollars for a fine for downloading a couple of songs illegally which has no valid basis. But hey, it's the industries fault when consumers can't afford their content or aren't willing to pay the asinine asking prices of some items today. The rich will keep trying to get richer while the poor keep getting tread on by the corporations.

Melhem
01-18-2012, 02:43 PM
Look i'm an Aussie so this doesnt really effect me in anyway. But I am scared that tankspot and gamebreaker are going to be shut down. I dont want to say anything stupid that could get you shut down so I wont. I will say tho, what has these 2 bills acually done. With wiki being down whats happened?

leethaxor
01-18-2012, 02:47 PM
Look i'm an Aussie so this doesnt really effect me in anyway. But I am scared that tankspot and gamebreaker are going to be shut down. I dont want to say anything stupid that could get you shut down so I wont. I will say tho, what has these 2 bills acually done. With wiki being down whats happened?

Its a protest against censorship that your country has no problem with.

Fetzie
01-18-2012, 02:48 PM
Look i'm an Aussie so this doesnt really effect me in anyway. But I am scared that tankspot and gamebreaker are going to be shut down. I dont want to say anything stupid that could get you shut down so I wont. I will say tho, what has these 2 bills acually done. With wiki being down whats happened?







Wikipedia being down is a temporary thing, it will be back up in a couple of hours. So far, the bills have done nothing as they have yet to be debated in the American House of Representatives and Senate. Here's to hoping it stays that way.

Zulrohk
01-18-2012, 03:36 PM
Just called my reps, we must stop sopa!

Dreadski
01-18-2012, 03:56 PM
#fucksopa

Called my reps and signed every petition available. Make sure you guys are hitting social media as well. Google+, Twitter, Facebook, forums, blogs, youtube. We cannot let this pass and the world needs to know it is NOT OK.

Dreadski
01-18-2012, 03:57 PM
Look i'm an Aussie so this doesnt really effect me in anyway. But I am scared that tankspot and gamebreaker are going to be shut down. I dont want to say anything stupid that could get you shut down so I wont. I will say tho, what has these 2 bills acually done. With wiki being down whats happened?
It will effect you no matter where you live. Stupidity spreads.

lauragnome
01-18-2012, 04:06 PM
One thing I'd urge against is using someone else's words if you choose to write or call your representative: there are a lot of sites and movements out there that will give you a pre-written form letter to just stick your name on, and this kind of lobbying makes very little impact, from within a political office. Petitions are great, but if you're going to write a letter, write it yourself, and put it in words that the staffer in the mailroom reading it won't have already read nine hundred times that week.

But one thing that isn't getting mentioned enough, is that if you dislike this kind of approach to public policy, there is one morething you can do, in addition to getting involved against SOPA/PIPA, and that is this: If you're someone who pirates things, no matter how small they may be or how you justify it to youself, stop.

Leucifer
01-18-2012, 04:18 PM
Please go read the Bills before posting information that just becomes more hearsay about them. There is a lot to these bills and what you quoted here #1 would never happen #2 isn't even written in the bills.

Reviewed SOPA..............

SOPA's first part is intended to target foreign sites. However, it has provisions under it that would enable someone to go to a payment network provider (which could be any number of transaction agencies, from PayPal to VISA) to cease payments to/from a website. It can also be utilized to make advertisers suspend business with a website..... simply based on someone sending them a letter informing them to cease and desist based on the plaintiff perceives to be a violation of the law. (See Section 103. Market-based system to protect U.S. customers and prevent U.S. funding of sites dedicated to theft of U.S. property)

The way it reads, is basically as follows....

1) I the plaintiff send my communication to the website's payment network provider and advertisers informing them of what I perceive to be a violation.

2) Those agencies have a time requirement to cease/desist their actions with website.

3) Those agencies must notify the website of the communication. (Sec 103, Subsection (b), Part (4), Paragraph (C)). Please note, it's not even incumbent of the plaintiff to NOTIFY THE OFFENDING PARTY. They can just go straight to the money and have them cut off.

4) Website must counter notify the payment network provider and advertisers, and then seek court injunction to get relief!

And, the way the bill is written, the payment network provider and the advertisers have no skin in the game. They are granted immunity. Thus, it is in their best interests to just comply, and shut down.

What this bill does, effectively, is allows the plaintiff to immediately shut down the financial flow to a website based solely on their perception of harm being done.

Granted, yes. The bill includes provisions that would allow the defendent to seek compensation for damages from the plaintiff. In the meantime though...

1) They have been shut down financially.
2) THEY have to initiate the court process to prove themselves innocent.

That second part is effectively a reversal of the 5th Amendment.

So yes. You are correct. The scenario that I outlined in my previous post is incorrect. I would not be able to just contact the ISP and have a website shut down. I could, however, contact the advertisers for that website and have them cut off the money to that website. I could have a payment network provider shut down the flow of money to and from that website. The website cannot undo this action without seeking to re-establish itself through court action.

The idea of innocent until proven guilty, has just become, guilty until proven innocent.

And this does not even bring into discussion the possible creative avenues that a clever lawyer might be able to utilize to further hard an operation. For instance, the language leaves open several avenues for "attack". In the instance of TankSpot for example, I could instead attack the ZAM network, and hit its advertisers, stating that ZAM network is hosting a website that is in violation of the law. ZAM network might just dump TankSpot in an effort to save its other websites. I could also attack ZAM through a credit card agency. How does TankSpot render its payments to ZAM network for its site?

And the thing is, all this aside..... all I have to do is send my communication to one of these agencies. I do NOT have to provide a court with the burden of proof until after the damage has been done.

And that, is just ONE of the problems. I'm not even touching the issue of where a website is hosted or originates from. I'm also not even touching how this might affect websites /search engines that simply link to a website that might be reportedly in violation. For example, if an internet search engine provides links to a "violator", does this in essence make it a violator? And if so, can I in turn have its advertisers and financial support activity cut off business to it in response?

TL;DR...............
Yes. My earlier post was erroneous.

However, SOPA at least allows for financial support to websites to be cut-off without due process.

Edit: Forgot my source.......
http://thomas.loc.gov/home/gpoxmlc112/h3261_ih.xml

Leucifer
01-18-2012, 04:21 PM
But one thing that isn't getting mentioned enough, is that if you dislike this kind of approach to public policy, there is one morething you can do, in addition to getting involved against SOPA/PIPA, and that is this: If you're someone who pirates things, no matter how small they may be or how you justify it to youself, stop.

This.........
Please.

Deandia
01-18-2012, 04:23 PM
Btw Our government is fully capable of blocking internet sites it deems not appropriate or containing sensitive or material not for public consumption.

Can you say Wikileaks? Still blocked in the USA.

Are we really any better than China in this?

hynx
01-18-2012, 05:05 PM
http://www.geekosystem.com/sopa-author-copyright-violator/
basically SOPA author and congressman can get f**ked pretty good cus hes violating his own copyright law he is trying to pass. use the url to read the details.

Ion
01-18-2012, 05:08 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-16623831

Interesting news.

The irony of posting a link to the BBC site about this isn't lost on me, for those wondering.

Toushiro
01-18-2012, 05:30 PM
Btw Our government is fully capable of blocking internet sites it deems not appropriate or containing sensitive or material not for public consumption.

Can you say Wikileaks? Still blocked in the USA.

Are we really any better than China in this?

you're joking right? I can browse all of wikileaks just fine and I'm in the US.

Rennadrel
01-18-2012, 05:35 PM
Apparently a guy who is going to spend the rest of his living life in a prison cell had a few things to say about the White House over SOPA, quite humorous that a criminal would have the gall to say anything in this regard:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/01/15/murdoch_twitter_rant_sopa/
(http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/01/15/murdoch_twitter_rant_sopa/)

Ion
01-18-2012, 05:38 PM
Taking anything a 400 year old rich old-media mogul has to say about technology even remotely seriously is...comical.

Krenian
01-18-2012, 06:00 PM
Rupert Murdoch is the LAST person that should even be saying anything at all. He has ZERO credibility and needs to be completely ignored.

Dr.defile
01-18-2012, 06:30 PM
lol it's pretty much legalized censorship, who has there Guy Fawkes mask ready?

Kahmal
01-18-2012, 07:24 PM
Lore explained this to me better then any politician.

hageos
01-18-2012, 08:43 PM
i signed 6 petitions and wrote three letters to congress

Rawer
01-18-2012, 11:47 PM
I'll get a lil' political and maybe have Krenian on my back but can't help it.
I wish you US guys to stop this but you didn't do a good job with DMCA,Online Poker ban, teacher-student social online interraction and other ...
Goodluck with Sopa and Pipa.

Rennadrel
01-19-2012, 03:01 AM
I think that's fair enough to suggest, but America isn't the only country with numb skullery in their politics. I think it just happens to be a bit more prominent since they have a considerably larger representation since you are covering so many states, plus you have representatives at many different levels such as Governors and members of the Senate. I think is SOPA is one of those cases where it's not so much the politicians that are trying to be the bad guys, because let's face it, people have been jumping ship since it's become such a massive train wreck. No, while a bill like SOPA was brought in by politicians, it was forced into Congress by the entertainment industry, businesses like the RIAA and MPAA want to see change brought to content on the Internet. Unfortunately for them they seem to have a lot of flaws with the bill that just don't make sense, not to mention they really expect to block American's from accessing shared content that might be deemed as breaking a copyright law yet they would harm far more websites then help their own cause.

Also, I think there are a lot of rather hilarious things about piracy on the Internet that people forget. I remember when piracy wasn't rampant, in the days before CD and DVD burners. But once content is out there, it's impossible for it not to be shared.

Ryoku
01-19-2012, 03:20 AM
For the Europeans there is a possibility to do something:
Call your countires representatives from the european parlament, explain to them how due to these laws, european websites (which might be completly legal in any given country) will be shoutdown, because they will not be able to acces donations from members.

Krenian
01-19-2012, 05:45 AM
Sometimes Rawer, if you feel a mod might jump on you, you may want to make sure you wanna post what you post otherwise you simply are setting yourself up for it.

I altered some of your post. Talk SOPA, talk about how bad the bill is. Do NOT go into details about the whole United States political system. That's where I draw the line. You went off on stuff that you should just not have and had little relation to the topic and a simply targetting of the US political system.

This is going to be a very dangerous topic and I can understand that, but refrain from going further from SOPA and PIPA and you won't get nailed by an infraction. Sometimes saying something is not worth it.

Ahterprong
01-19-2012, 08:33 PM
We can not allow this to go through. Quite a few of my guildies and I have already sent emails to our representitives letting them know that we are against this. The amount of harm that this will be able to do is staggering. Why in an economic low point would you give people the ability to completely block a website and stifel its money making ability is beyond me.

Spike Spartan
01-19-2012, 10:09 PM
This may be a little conspiracy theory but you may find some value in it.


Several years ago it was pointed out that Microsoft spent little to no money on political "Influencing". They did not have any paid lobbyists et al. Soon there after, some very stupid bills were put forth that were harmful to Microsoft. Microsoft got the hint and paid for a number of lobbyists and the bills went away.

Now companies like Google, U-Tube and Facebook are being threatened, and it is very possible they will throw a bunch of money at lobbists and this new bill will be completely rewritten so that is does not threaten them. Perhaps the real bill is already written and the politicians are waiting until these companies fall into line before it is presented.

These politicians who seem so clueless about how the internet work are very good at seeing who in America is making money and then finding a way to take some of it.

Ask yourself .. how much money are these companies making.

Rawer
01-19-2012, 11:41 PM
Megaupload.com was just taken down by the feds.
The problem with internet freedom is bigger than SOPA or PIPA or w/e acronym.

Mwawka
01-20-2012, 11:32 AM
As a Canadian, it is very difficult to watch another countries politicians determine how I'm going to be able to use the internet in the future, without any real recourse of protest.

My feeling is that the backers of SOPA/PIPA truly believed they could get the bill through without much knowledge about what it is. The way to stop this is underway. BE ACTIVE. Our generation of internet users needs to learn how to be heard politically and be able to stand up and make a difference, not until these bills are shelved, but until they are dead and buried. The industries behind these bills need to know that any further push on this type of legislation is a waste of their money, so they go a different direction. Sometimes people need something to fight for to show that they are willing to make a difference. Be that person and get on the phone today and call your Reps and Senators.

Your constitutional freedoms and rights for due process are what is at stake here, not just your right to Facebook. The trend I see right now is that US rights and freedoms are being restricted and people are standing by and letting it happen. So educate yourself on these bills, educate yourself on the NDAA, tart making it know that you are paying attention and you won't stand by while your rights and freedoms are restricted in any fashion. Don't sit there and watch as your constitutional guarantees are slowly shifted and then suddenly wake up and go WTF.

Fetzie
01-21-2012, 06:38 PM
I hope you guys take more from this event than just "we showed them".

Remember: The politicians are in Congress to represent YOU. No matter what pressure lobbyists put on them, it is your vote that keeps them in that job. Cherish that vote, you are lucky enough to live in a country that allows the public to have a say in who governs them. If you don't like what a politician is doing, kick up a fuss about it, and if they don't listen - FIRE THEM. It isn't enough to simply complain. If somebody has a very cushy job that pays well, the last thing they want to happen is to get sacked. You might think that in a country of 300 million your vote doesn't count for much, but it counts as much as anybody else'.

Get your family and friends interested in politics. Vote when you get the chance, whether it is to allow a new park to be built for the kids in your town, a vote to build a new by-pass or a vote to get a new government. If enough people say "no, you did a crap job. Get out of that seat in the House of Representatives", and do this on a regular basis, maybe - just maybe - the politicians will remember than politics is a public service. That they have a responsibility to the public to make choices on their behalf and to their benefit. That if they make decisions that the public do not like, then they are out of a job.

Somewhere I read that more people vote for Pop Idol winners than politicians. This is nothing different. The subject matter is, perhaps, less digestible than a 3 minute ballad. But the principle remains the same. If you want a guy or girl to stay in the competition, you have to vote for them. If you want them out, vote for somebody else that you would like to see again next week. But make that call. Vote. Make your voices heard because if you do not then they will not listen.

Remember.

Next time an election comes around, go there and vote.

Next time there is some legislation that you don't like, write to the person who can vote against it. Phone their office. Send emails and twitter messages.

Next time the internet might not be there to tell you about it.

Remember that.

vqmethyl
01-23-2012, 02:58 PM
What we should be worried about is ACTA, if it is ratified it will be a lot worse then SOPA/PIPA. Also dont be foolish into thinking its just a EU thing its a global pact http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Counterfeiting_Trade_Agreement. The US as already agreed to support it.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8Xg_C2YmG0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8Xg_C2YmG0)

Malevento
01-24-2012, 11:02 AM
I have signed the petition as well as called directly my congressman and senator.

http://polis.house.gov/ (the reply from the staffer was that Jared is opposed to both)

http://markudall.senate.gov/?p=blog&id=1909 (Mark is also opposed to both, I left voice mail about my opposition)

If these are your representatives call them now, let them know you are behind them shooting down this garbage.

oddjobhat
01-25-2012, 07:37 AM
It is our turn to ask our European friends to do what we have done with SOPA and PIPA in America for ACTA. Contact your representatives, tell people you know, don't let them sneak this one under our noses.
http://www.stopacta.info/

tranquilfiend
01-25-2012, 08:42 PM
Any time they've tried any sort of laws like this the ONLY sites/businesses that have ever been affected have been small businesses/independent businesses. Large multi-national corporations have never, ever been affected, like they're above the law. I think people have got it right - they hate the internet because it's too democratic. Sorry, but going on the internet and finding ONLY sites owned by these large, multi-national corporations would leave it all very, very empty. As it stands already people face heavier penalties for downloading music than killing someone. Imagine what it'll be like after this sort of action.

Any time they want ISP's to do any sort of policing I just cringe. I pay them to be that - a service provider. Not police. The realities involved in them policing each and every site they host, or each and every site their users access are absolutely horrifying.

As it is 147 "entities" (possibly individuals) control 40% of the world's multinational wealth. These same entities own the media services. Now they want to own the internet and that's all this is about. No matter how they dress it up calling it "anti-piracy" moves, "in the name of copyright", "making ISP's responsible for censoring criminal websites" etc etc etc, it all comes down to the same thing. The same people who have made television horrible now want to do the same to the internet. And it all comes back to controlling content which can be there. Never, ever forget that's the precise reason Rothschild said he hates the internet and wished it never existed. Because it gave people a way to talk about things he didn't like and present a view he didn't like.

Leucifer
02-06-2012, 12:16 PM
Guess you didn't learn when the mods nuked your first post.

Much better articles.....

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2012/02/impeach-obama-for-bribery-anti-acta-spin-reaches-new-lows.ars

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2012/01/internet-awash-in-inaccurate-anti-acta-arguments.ars

Don't spread misinformation.

tranquilfiend
02-19-2012, 05:04 PM
I don't mean to sound dumb, but with PIPA would that make it possible for them to flag what websites you go to and track or report you to any particular agency if you go to a politically controversial site or anything like that? Like there could be a black mark against your name as a possible dissident or something like that? I mean, is there any possibility of persecution for surfing the web? I might have misread, but it sounds like the US Government could possibly use it as a way to collect data as well as censoring anti-Government sentiments etc