PDA

View Full Version : Tanking Sheild Tanks and Souldrinker: Enchant VS Proc.



Gregasaurous
01-16-2012, 12:23 PM
The other day i was screwing around with my CTC after getting a new piece of gear and kinda dreading the day when i'd have to adjust for Souldrinker. Then it got me wondering if Windwalk was really the best enchant for it. Now, yes having a proc that boosts avoidance (even with full CTC) is still good, but at current gear levels, 600 dodge rating is greatly depreciated since T11 due to DR. But is it ideal with this weapon? Now unless I'm mistaken, Souldrinker does about 1k HPS overall for a normal mode geared tank. (All depending on the amount of health, chance to miss/parry/dodge and numerous other things.)

My first thought was: what would happen if you put Mending on Souldrinker? The sword is already doing a good chunk of healing, adding to it might make it a viable weapon enchant. But, then, Mending just isn't very good to begin with, so it might just be as useless as ever for tanking a raid boss.

Then i thought I could put Hurricane on it. Haste on proc could mean a good chance to get a healing boost, and increase the overall effectiveness. But then it occurred to me that a tank using haste is about as useful as a furry warrior using haste for rage upkeep. Meaning that reducing the chance of the attack not landing would be a much more efficient means of producing more heals than simply increasing the speed at which you swing.

So i came to increase hit and expertise. Bad. I'd lose avoidance, and maybe gems that could have been stamina, which in turn would decrease the amount of healing done by Souldrinker anyway. Which would be counter productive to what i'm trying to accomplish.

And so this is where I left off and i figured i'd throw it at the bright minds of Tankspot to see if they had any theories as to the best way to use Souldrinker to it's best effectiveness.

Dreadski
01-16-2012, 01:17 PM
How much does mending actually heal for? What about landslide?


My head is about to explode. Leaving computer to go put up my son's shelves.

Tengenstein
01-16-2012, 02:04 PM
So you're trying maximise the proc from souldrinker? Follow the same rules as when gearing for maximum threat.

Gregasaurous
01-16-2012, 03:26 PM
@Dreador: I'm not sure, from my understanding it's fairly minimal though. I'll go hit a dummy with my PVP weapon and see.


So you're trying maximise the proc from souldrinker? Follow the same rules as when gearing for maximum threat.

Yes and no. I am mostly looking at it from which weapon enchant would be best for it, in theory. As stated above i don't really want to attempt expertise capping. It's more of a: what will give most bang for 1 buck because i'm to cheap to spend 5. Windwalk is currently giving me about 2.3% dodge right now.


Mending is crappy after renewed testing.

Tengenstein
01-16-2012, 03:51 PM
Windwalk: I don't see why this weapon should be treated any different except for the proc giving it a bit of extra weighting due to the self heal. mending was pants in comparison back in t11, we're now in t13 where things hit harder and we have more health. Avoiding damage in the first place is always better than healing it back.


Yes Dodge may have deprecated due to DR. But if you're not CTC capped Windwalk can make you CTC capped whie its up Greatly improving its value. And if you're CTC capped as a warrior you will not have huge DR on dodge as you're desperately trying yo get a 1:1.3 Dodge parry rating ratio and realise that you really need alot more parry rating.

Dreadski
01-16-2012, 04:21 PM
From Wowhead comments:

By Moromillas (698 – 4) on 2010/12/29 (Patch 4.0.3) Report
Just finished running some numbers.

The setup: Paladin tank with 1.49% crit (10 rating from Alchemist stone), 2006 spell power, no haste - 2.8 swing speed.

2783 total hits, and the numbers slowly started to stop fluctuating. 2367 of the hits did not proc it. On 416 of the hits, it did proc, meaning that it proc'ed 17.58% of the time, with a proc rate of 3.77 PPM (procs per minute).

For healing, 401 of the procs were non-criticals that healed for 836 to 961. 15 procs were criticals that healed for 1254 to 1392. The average heal came in at 915.4, and the healing per minute was 3448.92, this is also assuming the tank is not at full hp 100% of the time.

It beats the hell out of nothing and is probably good for enchanting a low quality weapon, a weapon where you don't want to waste lots of gold on only to get an upgrade for it quickly - I got mine for 100g. I suspect that Windwalk might scale better for bosses that hit harder, but on my server no enchanter seems to have that yet, so another reason to have this enchant.

So it's a 3.7PPM heal for 800, possible crits to 1300. I didn't see any data on scaling.

leethaxor
01-16-2012, 04:30 PM
A crappy enchant isn't made better because I put it on a good weapon. Its like if I put 63 spell power on dragonwrath because dragonwrath gives me passive spell power.

Gregasaurous
01-16-2012, 04:33 PM
@Tengenstein I was pretty sure mending was a bad option, it was just on the train of thought and I was interested to see if anybody had an opinion on it. The data i just got form my warrior lines up pretty much with what Dreador got off WoWhead for meanding btw. (This means we can leave the Mending bashing, idk how we even managed to focus on that one)
I am CTC capped, with 15.83% dodge with fortune cookie. Windwalk puts me at 18.03. So my question is, can i help healers more by somehow enhancing Souldrinker, or by having and extra 2.3 dodge 40%(?) of the time i'm swinging at things.

Tengenstein
01-16-2012, 04:37 PM
the only way to enhance sopuldrinlers damage is either AP so you melee hits harder. Haste so you have more seings, expertise/hit, so it connects more often or by having a buigger healthpool, so the proc's bigger. Expertise is probably you're best bet.

Bigbad
01-16-2012, 04:38 PM
Windwalk is still best :)

Gregasaurous
01-16-2012, 04:42 PM
Right, so basically the best answer really is: Keep stacking that Stamina!

leethaxor
01-16-2012, 04:43 PM
I am CTC capped, with 15.83% dodge with fortune cookie. Windwalk puts me at 18.03. So my question is, can i help healers more by somehow enhancing Souldrinker, or by having and extra 2.3 dodge 40%(?) of the time i'm swinging at things.

Your weapon enchant is then roughly another 1% change to not be hit over all. Haste would be pointless, and if it was worth it you would start reforging your gear to it.

See the point your missing with the weapon enchant is you enchant what is most beneficial to you, if something like haste is better then avoidance then tanks would be gemming and reforging to haste. Mending is just crap, and landslade is meh as you shouldn't have trouble holding aggro.

Gregasaurous
01-16-2012, 05:03 PM
Your weapon enchant is then roughly another 1% change to not be hit over all. Haste would be pointless, and if it was worth it you would start reforging your gear to it.

See the point your missing with the weapon enchant is you enchant what is most beneficial to you, if something like haste is better then avoidance then tanks would be gemming and reforging to haste. Mending is just crap, and landslade is meh as you shouldn't have trouble holding aggro.

1) 40%(?) = what is the uptime of that enchant anyway?
2) No, i'm not really missing a point, I'm asking if there is a valid counter point.
3) Does AP even effect a proc that is based off your health?

klausi
01-16-2012, 05:26 PM
Actually i'd run with mending on my paladin for 3 ids to get some results because i had a similar idea, but i can only use one of the logs (other are from the time with SoT double dip-proccs):
Mending only healed for ~10% of life drain procc and had comparable proccrate (80-100% of the proccs) to drain life.

But after changing it to windwalk the drain life ppm remained basically the same (couldn't see any benefit*) so i don't see a problem with sticking to it or justiying using a weak procc like mending. Windwalk's 600 dodge rating isn't gamebreak but after DR and only account on third of it's (due to uptime) it's still ~ 0.70% dodge even combined with a trinket such as resolve of undying (770-990 permanent dodge rating, spine drop).

Mending is about 150 hps maximum, scales with attackpower and is affected from those talents/abilities increasing your healing taken.

* ran some tests on dummies for you with ilvl 403 with windwalk versus ilvl 390 with mending, both samples 25 minutes long. No specc (thus neither arms mastery, deep wounds nor other proccs from gear interfering), 524 versus 534 attacks conntected:
83 drain soul proccs for windwalk (procced 21 times) versus 75 drain soul proccs for mending (procced 67 times).

Fetzie
01-16-2012, 07:02 PM
The healing done by Mending is extremely low. It is less than the difference of a HoT critting or not. The only reason it was semi-viable in T11 was the price of Maelstrom Crystals for Windwalk.

A healer does not change their spell choice given a 400hp difference. It is hard enough to resolve 4000 hp on a healer interface, let alone a tenth of that. 400 hp is 0.17% of a healthbar (given a 240k hp pool). Not even a fifth of a percent. 4000hp is only 1.7%. As a healer, I judge the tank's health in 10% chunks. If he has 25k life more because a different heal occurred, I might choose to use holy light instead of Divine Light. The best way (and only) way to enhance the healing done by Souldrinker is to increase your maximum life. Or, to take less damage. Windwalk will, in the long run, reduce your damage taken. It also increases your running speed.

Long story short: Use Windwalk. If you are REALLY not concerned about overall damage taken, use Landslide for the attack power procc. A healer isn't going to base his spell choice on whether or not you took a smaller heal than a druid's rejuv tick. If you took a decent self-heal like Death Strike or Word of Glory that can heal for over 80k, then yeah, the healer might rethink. But over a 1% difference? Never.

As for threat stats: Expertise to 26, hit to 8%, then strength (and attack power). Haste and crit are extremely low in comparison.

kopcap
01-16-2012, 08:31 PM
Expertise to 26, hit to 8%, then stam

Tengenstein
01-17-2012, 02:13 AM
I wouldn't be surprised if it was expertise to 56 rather than strength or stam.

Fetzie
01-17-2012, 07:18 AM
Expertise to 26, hit to 8%, then stam







Not quite. At least not for paladins. These graphs were compiled by Theck over at maintankadin as part of his matlab protection paladin analysis. You can find the source here:

http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=593315#p593315


When compared to strength, disregarding the presence of any caps, hit and expertise trump strength, which is stronger than anything else. Stamina is the 5th line from the top, just below the pink AP graph.
https://sites.google.com/site/matlabadin/4-3/43_CS_str.png

Look what happens when we take a hit cap into consideration:
https://sites.google.com/site/matlabadin/4-3/43_CS_hit.png
Hit rating loses dps when you hit the hard cap (obviously). Stamina is, once again, just below Attack Power.

This is what happens when you hit an expertise soft/hard cap. Note how the threat per point is still slightly above strength until the hard cap at 56, and stamina is still quite low in comparison with strength.
https://sites.google.com/site/matlabadin/4-3/43_CS_exp.png

Now Ultraxion, arguably the only boss in DS where it could make sense to gear for dps, cannot parry. Therefore, for this fight, expertise above the dodge cap is worth zero, putting strength back in the top spot for dps after obtaining 26 expertise and 8% hit.

Tengenstein
01-17-2012, 07:34 AM
But the souldrinker's proc damage is based on HP, not AP so strength is not actually going to contribute to extra proc damage.

Theotherone
01-17-2012, 08:00 AM
Nvm

truculent
01-17-2012, 08:20 AM
This is trival.


I dont see the point in giving up dodge/parry/mastery rating just to increase the uptime of a mediocre wepons proc.

No enchant is going to change the fact that the proc is indeed mediocre.

1k hps proc is .. what? about as much healing as a priests renew or a druid hot? I fell like going out of ones way to increase the effectiveness of the proc and/or enchant is really just wishfull thinking. Im sure there are more effective methods to increase ones survival at the moment.

Fetzie
01-17-2012, 08:24 AM
Anyway, they fixed Souldrinker proccing off extra attacks (stuff like seal of truth applications) and proc effects a fortnight ago.

Dreadski
01-17-2012, 01:42 PM
This is trival.


I dont see the point in giving up dodge/parry/mastery rating just to increase the uptime of a mediocre wepons proc.

No enchant is going to change the fact that the proc is indeed mediocre.

1k hps proc is .. what? about as much healing as a priests renew or a druid hot? I fell like going out of ones way to increase the effectiveness of the proc and/or enchant is really just wishfull thinking. Im sure there are more effective methods to increase ones survival at the moment.

The Windwalk proc is just as mediocre if not moreso. An extra ~2% chance to dodge is practically wasted itemization over the CTC cap, as it has been in every expansion prior save for the one raid at the end of BC in which avoidance was NEEDED. It's not saving any healer mana whatsoever, and only offers 1 chance in possibly 50 attacks not to die. Souldrinker's proc at least adds a small amount of dps/threat and healing threat, regardless of whether or not threat is a joke.

Theotherone
01-17-2012, 01:47 PM
I have the LFR version of Souldrinker on my Pally and it healed for about 1 million in a Well of Eternity run and, as I recall, a pretty good amount in a FL run we did. Are the healing numbers from Wowhead for Souldrinker or Mending? They just seem low based on my experience with Souldrinker.

truculent
01-17-2012, 01:48 PM
The Windwalk proc is just as mediocre if not moreso. An extra ~2% chance to dodge is practically wasted itemization over the CTC cap, as it has been in every expansion prior save for the one raid at the end of BC in which avoidance was NEEDED. It's not saving any healer mana whatsoever, and only offers 1 chance in possibly 50 attacks not to die. Souldrinker's proc at least adds a small amount of dps/threat and healing threat, regardless of whether or not threat is a joke.

Even the 2% dodge is less trivial then a 1k hot at this point. Sure, neither are trivial if you are trying to maximize. Im just point out that designing your survivability around either is most likely suboptimal.

Dreadski
01-17-2012, 02:11 PM
I have the LFR version of Souldrinker on my Pally and it healed for about 1 million in a Well of Eternity run and, as I recall, a pretty good amount in a FL run we did. Are the healing numbers from Wowhead for Souldrinker or Mending? They just seem low based on my experience with Souldrinker.
The numbers I quoted from wowhead were for Mending, not SD. SD procs at least 5k - 10k in a raid environment depending on buffs and situational buffs, as well as fight to fight.

Fetzie
01-17-2012, 02:13 PM
Taking my raid buffed health of 245k, that would be damage of 3675 damage and healing of 7350 every second or third swing for the 403 version; not taking any +heals casted/recieved talents or abilities into consideration.

Theotherone
01-17-2012, 02:14 PM
I thought it was Mending since it seemed low based on my experience with Souldrinker - I didn't do the math, 'cause basically, I suck at math; I just know what recount was telling me for healing.

Gregasaurous
01-17-2012, 10:52 PM
I thought it was Mending since it seemed low based on my experience with Souldrinker - I didn't do the math, 'cause basically, I suck at math; I just know what recount was telling me for healing.

Yeah, that was our discussion reminding us of how pitiful mending really was.

So, does anybody know why AP keeps surfacing in this discussion? I believe it has no effect on SD proc, and since this isn't a threat discussion I really have no idea how it got a few posts devoted to it. Threat = LOL. Optimizing tank dps = a whole different discussion entirely. See "Halp" forum: "Heroic Alysrazor" for that argument at it's best.

Back to the discussion: "Thanks Blizzard for a next-to-useless proc, i might as well pass and give it to my dw frost DK for hist top end damage." is what i'm gathering from the direction this discussion has taken.

Dreadski
01-17-2012, 11:40 PM
I have one from raid finder, it's higher base dps + the proc than my 378 from the new heroics and I can still maintain CTC. That was the whole reason I had mentioned Landslide in the first place was adding DPS period, not just to the proc. Only thing that helps the proc is health and +damage effects.

Tengenstein
01-18-2012, 12:00 AM
I have one from raid finder, it's higher base dps + the proc than my 378 from the new heroics and I can still maintain CTC. That was the whole reason I had mentioned Landslide in the first place was adding DPS period, not just to the proc. Only thing that helps the proc is health and +damage effects.

And landing more attacks..

Dreadski
01-18-2012, 10:51 AM
Then there's that.

Gregasaurous
01-18-2012, 07:20 PM
Then there's that.

"Destroyer of Threads" trying to get the last word eh?

Dreadski
01-20-2012, 05:18 PM
"Destroyer of Threads" trying to get the last word eh?
Trying to agree, welcome back the discussion.

Darthruneis
02-24-2012, 01:54 PM
I didn't really see it mentioned anywhere, but the only two enchants which will really affect Souldrinker's proc are Landslide and a Weapon Chain.

1000AP/proc (~200AP averaged iirc)
50 Hit Rating -> 5.2% more of your attacks will land (961 rating for hit cap, 50 of that is 5.2%, so 5.2% of your misses are gone)


Neither are that great for this purpose, and Landslide would add more damage over the course of a fight, while the Weapon Chain would allow for less annoyance in the rotation (however slight).

Martie
02-24-2012, 01:57 PM
50 Hit Rating -> 5.2% more of your attacks will land (961 rating for hit cap, 50 of that is 5.2%, so 5.2% of your misses are gone)

If you wanna say "5% less misses" don't say "5% more hits." There's a difference (about tenfold), and it sounds silly too.

Fetzie
02-24-2012, 02:50 PM
50 Hit Rating -> 5.2% more of your attacks will land (961 rating for hit cap, 50 of that is 5.2%, so 5.2% of your misses are gone)


Firstly, the weapon chain is 40 hit rating, not 50.

Secondly, you need 120.125 hit rating for 1% hit. 40 hit rating is 0.332% hit.

Tengenstein
02-24-2012, 05:13 PM
I didn't really see it mentioned anywhere, but the only two enchants which will really affect Souldrinker's proc are Landslide and a Weapon Chain.

1000AP/proc (~200AP averaged iirc)
50 Hit Rating -> 5.2% more of your attacks will land (961 rating for hit cap, 50 of that is 5.2%, so 5.2% of your misses are gone)


Neither are that great for this purpose, and Landslide would add more damage over the course of a fight, while the Weapon Chain would allow for less annoyance in the rotation (however slight).

Landslide does not have any effect on souldrinker, the damage of souldrinker is based off your HP, so only stam and raw hp bonuases will increase, landslide increase AP.....Ap has little effect on healthpool.

leethaxor
02-26-2012, 04:19 PM
.Ap has little effect on healthpool.
Any?